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Dave
15 years ago
Republicans will not make a comeback until they drop the social issues. People who think all day about gay people seem strange. People who rail against marijuana come accross as “out of touch.” While people should stand up for what they believe, your image is bad. You’ve lost the next few generations because of your social issues, and you can’t start a revolution without the tweens.
However, a revolution that fought against large government could gain some steam. There are a lot of young libertarians out there.
The people you guys hate… are the future of your party. You should really pay attention to people like Meghan McCain. Follow Rush and you die a slow embarrasing death. Adults may find him controversial. The youth find him “played out.”
Mike, you are spot on! Looking at the sites for the Tea Parties and the 912 Project by Glenn Beck is a great place to find peope in your area that are starting to get involved. I bet others have other places to find people, as well.
Also, we cannot listen to people like Megan McCain (she is clueless) and lead the GOP with solid Conservative principles is the key. By listening to RINOs and moderates, we would end up losing again. When we gather with others and expose our beliefs to anyone, they need to be solid Conservative values and not these moderate and weak positions that loses elections.
Younger voters are going to come when they listen to points about how government is not the solution and it the problem. When they hear talk about optimism and freedom, they will come while the Left keeps taking our freedoms, playing class warfare, and telling everyone how bad they and America are. Besides tweens don’t vote and won’t vote consistently until their 30s. Counting on and pushing for youth vote never works.
In 2008 about 24 million people under the age of 29 voted. Out of those 24 million who voted 16 million voted for Obama, 8 million for McCain. That was the exact difference in the popular vote overall. Americans have a pronounced tendency to stay with the party they started with, most young Americans will probably continue to vote for the Democrats. The only age group that McCain carried was the over 65 by 53% to 45% That group will be be getting smaller at about 20% per year. Democrat swin elections not because they are so good, it is because the republicans look so bad to too many Americans
@Dave: The truth is, the reason Republicans lost control of government is because their leaders stopped acting like conservatives and fell into the trap of bipartisanship, they tried to be moderates, and most of all, they spent money like they were liberals. When we let moderates like John and Meghan McCain become the mouthpieces of our party, we legitimized the left’s agenda and opened the door for their radical policies. McCain was so ready to deal with the devil because he thought they would put him on their shoulders and carry him to the White House. He forgot that when good negotiates with evil, evil always wins and good always loses. The answer is to always stand your ground, and never compromise your ideology.
Don’t let the fact that Meghan McCain is getting a lot of press confuse you into believing that she speaks for all of “the next few generations.” Meghan McCain is only getting press because the liberal MSM loves her. She speaks for the LEFT! She doesn’t speak for me or any conservative I know. My 18 year old son has a greater grasp of what it means to be a conservative than she ever will, because she is nothing more than a confused liberal who registered as a Republican so she could vote for her daddy.
As for losing “the next few generations because of (our) social issues?” Hogwash. The youth vote that we lost wasn’t because we “rail against marijuana.” That is as juvenile argument as you can make. If it was a Republican vs. Democrat issue, it would have been legalized during the four years of Carter, the first two years of Clinton, or in the last two months. In fact, the Democrats controlled the White House and Congress in 1937 when marijuana was banned at the federal level, and have controlled both houses of Congress for 50 of the 72 years since. During 28 of those years they had the Presidency at the same time. Your argument holds no water. As for gay rights, you can say us mean old Republicans are the bad guys in the gay rights movement, but the fact is California is the most liberal state in the nation, and voted twice to not recognize gay marriage. Since registered Republicans represent only 34% of California’s voting population, obviously a whole lot of Democrats had to vote for Prop 8 also. In fact, since only 75% of Republicans in the state supported Prop 8 (25.5% of the population), more than half of the 52.5% of California’s voters that voted for it had to be either Democrats or Independents.
We lost the youth vote because they spend 4 hours a day watching television that is dominated by progressive agendas. We lost them because they think Obama is a rock star. We lost them because they are the victims of a decades long effort by the left to take over the educational system. We lost them because we trusted that their teachers were teaching them arithmetic, and instead they were teaching them to be sheep. We lost them, because while the conservatives were at work creating the nations wealth, the liberals were playing their progressive little flutes and leading the children away.
We will take back our country by returning, as a party, to our conservative roots and ideology. If we lead, with resolute determination, “the next few generations” will follow.
Dave
15 years ago
Franklin,
You are correct about the fact that twenty somethings don’t vote (well the numbers weren’t horrible). But they indicate where the country is moving. Being a tween myself, I definitely feel that the conservative youth is more socially liberal than their parents.
Also, the whole RHINO/moderate thing is not politically viable. A person can be VERY conservative economically as well as VERY liberal socially (spending programs aside). What if a person wanted a low flat tax rate, that was largely a state tax and relativley no government regulation on business. However thought that prostitution should be legalized. That doesn’t make them a moderate anything. It’s not like they care about issues less or are willing to bend their principles more.
The problem is that social values and economic principles are difficult to marry. It makes politics more about choosing a team, then the issues.
I laugh every time I hear some elder Reagan repub (not talking about you; don’t know your age) say that young people will follow if only they listen to republicans speak. WHAT?! Really, think about the next young person who is becoming interested in politics. He or she most likely wants to be considered an intelligent person. They turn on the television and see Anne Coulter saying something like Al Gore is gay. All older repubs laugh their asses off (it’s funny). The tween imediately realizes that she sounds stupid (although she is actually smart). You could tell this kid that there are plenty of intelligent, interesting, thoughtful conservatives out there, but it doesn’t matter because you conservatives stand behind her. You stand behind Rush. You stand behind Ingraham. All are smart and talented people who attract ABSOLUTELY NOBODY to the party. That is why you fail. You want it all, and you can’t have it.
I’m not telling any conservative to give up their principles. But the republican party must change regardless of the conservative majority if they want to survive. Your party cannot win if you don’t give up the social issues.
I watched Meghan McCain on Larry King Live. Before this interview I assumed she was a light weight who was more interested in her “social life” than real issues. I was wrong. She was fascinating, and spoke eloquently about her political positions.
When I earlier wrote “tweens”, I meant twenty somethings.
Dave
15 years ago
John Ryan,
You are spot on.
Tom in CA
15 years ago
This is one of ‘you guys’ that won’t be following Megan McCain’s lead. Sorry, I’d rather lose every election till I die. At some point you just have to follow your moral bearings and not succumb to trying to entice every social group to join your party.
The guy’s 50 some days into his Presidency and we are supposed to lay down with our legs in the air like a cockroach. Not me. Sorry Dave. I remember Clinton’s reign. It was short lived.
Besides Dave, I really don’t hate anyone. That’s your perception
I live in Northern California with every purple haired, tatooed, freak you can find. As long as they stay out my hair, they can do whatever they want.
@John ryan said: “Democrat swin elections not because they are so good, it is because the republicans look so bad to too many Americans”
And if there wasn’t a massive free media advantage provided by NBCCBSPBSABCNEWYORTIMESWASHINGTONPOSTTIMEMAGAZINE….. Americans wouldn’t have such a bad impression of Republicans.
Add to that the fact that the Daily Show is one of the prime sources of “news” for the younger generation and you explain the disparity of voting for Obama.
Yet as Lincoln said you cannot fool all the people all the time and I believe that must also apply to the young and the ignorant and maybe even the willfully uninformed.
Lucky for libs that they control the media. If there was a level playing field conservatives would win every election.
@Dave: If the GOP ditched social conservatives they wouldn’t be able to make up even half the difference with the mushy middle ground of folks you seem to believe are put off by strong stands on moral issues.
Besides, unless I am mistaken, you really don’t want us to win anyway so frankly, your advice ain’t worth much.
Lightbringer
15 years ago
@Dave
Strangely enough, the “tweens” who were so much more socially liberal than their parents in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s grew up to elect Reagan twice. As they got firmly into their 40’s and 50’s they got serious and ushered in Newt and the Republican majority in congress in the 1990’s. Twenty-somethings are always more socially liberal than their elders. Once they start raising children, that often changes.
Btw, I am not even refuting your arguments, merely pointing out a few facts about humanity that have been true for as long as humans have been keeping history (and without a doubt long before that as well).
Dave
15 years ago
Tom in CA,
No man. I don’t think you understood. I don’t think conservatives or anyone should change their principles or lose their moral bearings. But the PARTY should change. It’s an institutional change. Not an individual one.
I never perceived that you hate anyone. I never even hinted at anything like that. People who are socially conservative aren’t bigots in my opinion. They have a set of principles that they want the government to enforce. I’m talking about the image of the party. If you want to keep the image, you lose. I respect you. You will not change just to help the party. But you lose. And will lose.
Here’s what you’re missing. The twenty somethings didn’t come out in huge numbers all together. But the margin is massive for Obama. The next young voters don’t want to be associated with the faces of your party.
In other words, the next generation doesn’t think that Ted Nugent is as radical as their parents do. They think Stephen Baldwin probably had no freinds in high school (anti marijuana). They think Rush reminds them of their crazy, cigar smoking grandpa. And they think Ingraham sounds like an angry soccer mom. There’s a generation gap that you guys can’t overcome.
DocMartyn
15 years ago
Three things;
1) The GOP should launch its own investigation of corruption of Republican office holders. With the state of the media, not only should the Republican representatives be clean, they should be visibly clean. Nothing is going to work so well as a contrast.
2) Get the fuck out of peoples bedrooms and wombs. Morality is motile, different generation have different views. My 12 year old daughter has made up her mind about the morality of homosexuality and abortion; the first she doesn’t give a damn about and the second she views as a necessary evil. DONT make morality a party matter, it is distorting and alienates potential voters and makes bigots you mouth piece on the MSM.
3) Live up to your God damned promises. So don’t promise what you can’t deliver. Tell the American people that things will take a decade to fix and they will think you are truthful. Tell them that retirement age will have to be raised, and they will respect you. Tell them they will be farting through silk on 2 years and they might as well vote for the people who offer the same deal earlier.
The Democrats are going to be screwing up with greater frequency. This will be very fucked in 18 months. We have that time to clear the dead wood in the party and decide what sort of America we want and how we will get there. There are a lot of people, especially women, who would vote Republican but are put off by fears on a ban of abortion and on the ‘selfish’ nature that Republicanism is typically presented.
Make sure you pick Palin.
Dave
15 years ago
Lightbringer,
Well said. I agree. But that progression requires a better image for your party. For instance, Steele’s hip hop plan is embarrassing. Reagan was cool. He was different than Sarah Palin or Bobby Jindal. Your politicians do not have the ablility to communicate to the next generations.
Mike’s America,
I do want republicans to win if they dropped the social issues. I’m secretly rooting for some of you guys. I did go door to door for Obama. But I like the conservative economic mentality. I’m young and I see the future changing slightly. This shift will produce more and more socially liberal people, and the republican party will become smaller and smaller.
DocMartyn,
Right on. But then why Palin?
Also, I’m done responding. I feel like a jerk for loading this post. It wasn’t that bad, and it doesn’t deserve this many rebuttals.
@Dave: My last comment was lost in spam, but addresses your take on Republican social views. Hopefully someone will dig it out soon. You keep talking like you are representative of your whole generation, but you are not. EVERY generation thinks they are more progressive, more socially conscious, and smarter than the last, especially when they are young. Yes, the Democrats won this round, but not by the landslide you portray. 56 million people voted for the other guy. You can bash Rush all you want, but almost 30 million people tune in every week. As many people watch Fox News as MSNBC, CNN and CNN HN combined. Conservatives are talking and people are listening, people from every age group and demographic. If no one was listening or following the conservative viewpoint, the Democrats wouldn’t be trying to figure out a way to re-institute the fairness doctrine.
You’re much younger than me so allow me to share with you some words of wisdom gleaned from years of experience: Lightbringer is correct and the tweens will figure out how badly they have been conned once they have enough information, perspective and experience to see it all more clearly.
If some people really want to continue voting for fools who bankrupt them and enslave their future just because they are socially liberal then I don’t really care to appeal to such morons.
@DocMartyn: Are you happy with Democrats intrusion into your wombs and bedrooms? Or is it only the moral position of Republicans that offends you?
otis
15 years ago
I am a young college repub and I think this is a really constructive thread. A lot of good thoughts and ideas. That said, I am starting to realize something about my parents generation of conservatives. While they claim to be looking out for the future of our party, by holding on to social values, they are really just holding on to some sort of “branding” concept that THEY PERSONALLY identify with. In reality, it seems as if they are looking out more for themselves than the party. Lets face it, our parents generation is going to be gone faster than we think. And they are going to leave behind a fragmented mess of a party for us to clean up. To me it is obvious, lets drop the social issues (I can still practice my set of morals with out the gov’t enforcing them), lets champion our fiscally conservative ideology (everyone knows we stomp the dems in this territory), and lets see where it takes us in the next 8 to 12 years. I think we would all be pleasantly surprised. Unfortunately, for our parents, this tide will not turn around in 4 years. Our party needs some major restructuring, this will take time, but dropping the social issues is a good place to start.
otis
15 years ago
@Mike’s America
You just perfectly illustrated my point with your last post. It seems like “Dave” is someone who has the potential of switching parties and voting republican, but your words are alienating, rather than inviting. The more your generation of repubs finds offense in everything and attacks at everything, the less chance we have of turning this party around. I think it’s time for the torch to be passed down. Like Bob Dylan once sang, “The times they are a changing”. Come on Mike, it’s never to late to hop on board.
@otis: Otis, as I told Dave, I am older than you. But I still remember the moment when I was old enough and wise enough to realize my parents were right all along.
You may think differently about those social issues once you are more aware of the consequences of a party platform or government policy devoid of such considerations.
And again, if it comes down to a choice of dropping social issues and alientating the millions who feel deeply enough about them to be motivated to work on campaigns and give money or dropping the mushy middle grounders who have no firm beliefs and are notoriously unreliable party activists the choice is clear.
Dave
15 years ago
Otis,
I said I wouldn’t respond again, but you see exactly what I see. The college crowd has a different perspective, and that includes conservatives. Republicans do kick ass on the economy. Unfortunately they’re carrying some “toxic assets” in the social arena.
Mike’s America,
I’m in my mid twenties. I said I mispoke (wrote?) when I said “tween.” I don’t think you feel the shift. I also agree with Lightbringer, but the times are a changin. This time less kids will become socially conservative when they have kids.
I said I supported Obama to speak honestly, probably in hopes that the response wouldn’t be in the form of an ad hominem attack. I was wrong. Attack the point, not the man who speaks it. It only shows your inability to construct a good argument.
It seems to me like Dave/Otis is attempting to be constructive.
You did ask,
Reader Ideas?
What additional ideas do you have to recommend to help folks get more involved and make a difference?
And I think he is trying to weigh in his two cents.
Might not agree with him, but I think it’s a worthy discussion to be pursued by those interested.
Personally, I think if it’s image we’re talking about, the conservative image has been as much a creation of liberal opponents as much as anything Coulter or Rush has done to tarnish. Do they offer fodder for the Democrats? Often, what these popular pundits say gets twisted. Like Mike, I believe the GOP has been maligned, slandered, and caricaturized successfully over the years by its opponents, through media, Hollywood, and indoctrination in the school system. Somehow, it’s become the party of racists, the greedy and rich, warmongering neocons, homophobes, and Jesus Camp religious nuts.
What baffles me, is why there’s always talk of “social conservatives”, but not “social liberals”. The Democrats make social issues as much a part of their platform as Republicans. Am I wrong on this? Morality preaching isn’t exclusive to just Republicans. Democrats give their daily dose of moralizing all the time.
The spam filter is just plain evil lately. Must be the vast left wing conspiracy. That, or Akismet was written by a “social liberal”. 🙂
Yeah, I had to fish my own self out of the filter just now. Sheesh!
Tom in CA
15 years ago
Dear Dave,
Now I understand, you are in your 20’s and perhaps in college. I was in college in the early 70’s. Take a look a some of the photos of colleges in those years. Remember Vietnam, maybe Kent State? Think there was a huge Republican presence on campus then? OK. Now, look at the historical Presidential elections from Johnson to present. I really don’t remember a huge pandering to college age students and yet Republicans did fairly well.
In my 50’ish view, after building a small business and raising children is this. My perspective on winning back congressional seats and the WH, is stay the course. Don’t waiver. Maintain your ideals in the face of a setback. Obama’s victory was not a landslide. There is a group in the squishy middle that switched to him. They will come back with his failure. Good luck and thanks for your response.
Tom in CA
Elsie
15 years ago
@Dave and Otis,
You both bring up interesting arguments. Social issues as a alienating force is a poignant and articulate point that needs discussing. The Republican party has a strong backbone of fiscal conservatism that is consistently overshadowed by the social issues that smell more and more like hate mongering to a generation that is exposed, and deeply embedded, with the very things and people that these issues reject. Every young person knows someone who is homosexual, had an abortion or smokes pot, or they have been in these positions themselves, and they learn to live with them, meaning that even if they do disagree, they know it is socially unacceptable to say so. In this way, a party that champions conservatism on these issues will also seem socially unacceptable. Thus, the younger generation will be immediately turned off by the Republican party, and will never have the chance to learn of the benefits of a conservative economical system. The Republican party signifies bigotry and hate to the younger generation, and it allows them to feel elitist as an open-minded liberal. The economic issues are not even considered by them.
Thanks to the both of you for bringing this up!
@Mike’s America:
Belittling and demeaning a younger person who is trying to have an honest dialogue is part of the hate mongering that needs to stop. If you do have experience as an effective communicator, then you should try to encourage such commentary, and answer it directly.
Stop with the sockpuppetry or you will be banned with the other sockpuppets. Everytime you comment, everytime you even view the page, your IP is recorded. You first commented with an IP of 98.119.106.234, then this one with a IP of 71.133.87.15, then you commented under the name Otis with the same IP as the first one, 98.119.106.234, twice….then switched back to Dave under 71.133.87.15….and now Elsie with the same IP.
Your making yourself look like a fool.
luva the scissors
15 years ago
my [arents are republicans and as a teen and a twenty something i felt compelled to rebel, i voted for ross perot because he was against motorcycle helmets. seriously of all the freakin issues i could have picked i picked that, it was my very first presdintial election. i can say that i never voted for a democrat for president, but i felt republicans were stuffy old men who fondled kids in closets or something. i voted for dems at the local and state level, then i had my kids. let me tell you that changed everything for me, i started to read alot, really look at the issues that mattered to me and my family. then i “saw the light” and realized that my parents weren’t stupid, that repubs weren’t dirty old men and that i was pissed by what i had not been paying attention to. i could careless if someone wants to be stoned out of their head, but they had better not be sucking up my tax dollars to do it, they also better not be breeding like octomom either. i am a fiscal and socail conservative and i am proud of it. i have people i talk to who are dumb struck that i believe as i do, they tell me i don’t look like a republican. i guess we come in all shapes and sizes, i smoke, drink, collor my hair crazy colors and love to be crazy in a respnsible way. yay me. i take care of my family with zero help from the government and i pay my fair share and i vote. i am the person dave was sure would never turn from the dem party, guess what i did. yeah i called myself an independent, but i think that at heart i was really a conservative.
Uh…yeah, it’s almost like there’s a mind-meld going on or something between you….um…..three? . 😉
Dave
15 years ago
Curt,
Elsie and I are now laughing with eachother about this. She is here with me, and I didn’t know about it. Can’t say anything about Otis. Don’t know where he or she is coming from. I was stoked to hear he agreed with what I was talking about. I’ll find out later probably. I mean everything I say. And I do not troll. Follow any earlier responses I have left, and you will see my consistency.
Wordsmith,
you are right about social democrats.
Mike,
I mean no harm to your post. I only wanted to start a good discussion. Elsi and Otis are not my responsibility. Elsie is honest about where she is coming from.
Cute… got a bunch here that are desperate to make the GOP solely about abortion and drugs, yet join the choir when that same party tries to return to fiscal prudence. I believe the TOTUS/POTUS and his political thug team calls it “tired old ideas”.
Funny… I must have missed the moment when being fiscally prudent went out of vogue.
Perhaps if you all would realize that the entire GOP party membership doesn’t revolve around religion and moral issues, but the role of government and control of spending (at least in party philosophy if not their actions over the past decade), you might find you have more in common with those you love to despise.
… or not. Perhaps you’ve been too indoctrinated in social and economic justice curricula.
luva the scissors
15 years ago
@Dave: so as a door to door person for the obama campaign do you condone some of the tactics that were taken by the campiagn? do you condone the “hate mongering” that i pesonally experienced? i was asked by a client who i was voting for, and me being outspoken anyway and honest i answered that i was voting for the old guy and palin. i thought the old guy part was funny, so she flips out, totally, and starts screaming that palin will take woment back to being barefoot and pregnant and that i should burn in hell for voting for that ticket. seriously, the last thing you should do is say something like that to a person who is holding and using very, very sharp scissors next to your head while you are getting a haircut. i had much more thrown at me, i am strong and can take it, but i was surprised that the “party of tolerance” really wasn’t and was in fact much more angry and hateful than any conservative i have ever come across.
Dave, if you are still floating around out there let me give your young unformed mind a bit of advice. It’s an old saying, you’ve probably heard your parents or your grandparents use it before and no doubt you have ignored it:
HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY!
Coming here representing yourself as something you are not and using a bevy of fake names is a sure sign you are not someone that any of us should take seriously.
Therefore, no idea you have expressed regarding the GOP dumping it’s most ardent, longtime and most loyal supporters carries any weight or validity at all.
Your a fake, a phony and apparently a fool.
Sort of reminds me of this guy who showed up at an antiwar rally during the Bush years:
Turns out the guy was NOT a Republican but just another liar who thought that since every lefty he knew was a liar he thought no one would notice the difference if he gave it a whirl.
No wonder you want the GOP to drop moral issues. You clearly don’t know the difference between lying and truth.
What a shame you didn’t listen to your parents!
Hard Right
15 years ago
I sure missed out. Just wanted to point out leftists like dave simply accept what they are
told about Conservatives by thier lefty peers or just stereotype them just to feel superior
and good about themselves. Being a lefty is pure narcissism and elitism.
Hard Right
15 years ago
The spam filter has struck again.
Mike, I will have to hit your blog later to read your post, but here are things
Conservatives need to do to gradually take back America.
1) Take back education at all levels
2) Take back the media
3) Take back the legal system.
I’m not able to go into detai right now, but will later today.
OLDPUPPYMAX
15 years ago
The present crop of DC republicans is a scurvy, classless, unprincipled lot. McCain was the nominee last year because it was “his turn.” He was far more interested in remaining the bipartisan media darling of yore, than he was in winning the election. And the group with its lips perpetually attached to his rear end loved him for it. After all, nothing he did or said threatened to create one of those “hide under the desk lest I be forced to take a stand” moments. The rest of our “conservative” heroes, from the steel-spined Orrin Hatch to the ever pensive (and we should therefore worship his mind) Arlen Specter, can’t wait for those ever-present opportunities to betray the nation and the American public. How better to become the object of fawning attention from the true masters of political power…the national press corps. As for the handful of actual Americans currently serving in Washington–that is, the patriots–they are either thoroughly ignored by friend and foe alike, or roundly attacked for suggesting that the Constitution might still be a useful guide for political action. And their treatment quickly convinces the “smart” party members that it is better to agree with democrats and keep your job, power, earmarks and open avenue to Wall Street millions than put any faith in mold-ridden documents and the senile idealists who wrote them. Until we rid ourselves of republicans and democrats alike, remove all 535 from congress and replace them with individuals forced to govern according to the Constitution, the rights and freedom each actual American citizen took so long for granted will never return.
@Hard Right: Those are all laudable long term goals. My focus is on the immediate steps which are required before we might reach those goals.
Let’s face it: we’re going to be at a disadvantage for some time to come in the areas you cite so we have to work even harder and do what we can in the areas under our control.
There are still a sizeable number of people who are inclined to support conservatives and still don’t vote regularly if at all.
And there are millions more who would vote for us if they only heard our message instead of getting it from sources who want us to lose (see above for more on that).
Lightbringer
15 years ago
I agree with Old Puppy, a severe house cleaning and a return to Constitutional principles should be our long term goals. Hell, if we adhered to the Constitution, all these social issues would be more properly sorted out by individual states. If you wanted your 15 year old to be able to legally smoke pot in the waiting room of the free abortion clinic next to the gay marriage chapel, all you would have to do would be to move to California and quit trying to shove that sort of thing down the rest of our throats.
When I was ignorant, younger and stupid, I actually supported Al Gore during Clinton’s time.
That was after I read his writings on the environment and his life.
Little did I realize that I was being conned by a dumbass american conman. What utter stupidity and gullibility on my part!!!!
Luckily as I grew older, I had more experience in working and investing(my work is investing, incidentally) and I started to realize that the truth often was directly opposite of what was portrayed in your mainstream american big media. And without the truth, I would not able to understand your markets, your politics and your financial system—fatal for my job.
For instance, just take anthropogenic global warming and alternative energy fuels. They simply aren’t practical or economic unless oil is well above where it is now. Thus to trade and invest in any energy, one has to understand the conjob of AGW and also the politics of energy in america.
My point is that young people are stupid and can easily be conned(like I was). But as they grow older, and gain experience and responsibility from working, running businesses, investing, and raising a family, they soon start to leave the extreme liberal mindset and start to become conservative.
Hopefully this will be the same for those gullible and dumb young americans who were conned into voting for Obama.
Thanks Mata. I just saw that and it was pretty pointless. I can be a bit of a potty mouth myself and have had to resist the temptation to yell HORSES#*T a couple of times on this thread.
@sigmundringeck: You were just like millions who got sucked into Al Gore’s scam. But most of them are coming slowly to their senses as they realize he’s just a scaremongering greenie whoring for his own financial gain.
Just so you two don’t propose throwing the baby out with the bathwater. McCain isn’t the nominee anymore and President Bush is no longer holding back House and Senate GOP.
Our team has been making some unified, very strong and welcome statements lately and I do hope you recognize that.
As I have said before if we all sit here and refuse to support the GOP unless it meets some impossible standard of conservative purity then we better get used to being governed by liberals for a very long time.
DocMartyn
15 years ago
Lightbringer
“Hell, if we adhered to the Constitution, all these social issues would be more properly sorted out by individual states.”
That is exactly the sort of thing that the GOP could go for. I am English and watched the Conservative Party run out of ideas and personal morality. It has been out of power for 12 years, and has spent a decade trying to win arguments within the party, rather than win votes. This has given us 12 years of tax and spend, and we are now fucked beyond your imagination.
In the US Abortion/Gay marriage is a litmus test; in the UK it was the attitude to integration in Europe.
In the UK, things like IVF/Abortion/Gay rights are not ‘whipped’ and are not party political. The Gay marriage question in the UK was handled by having ‘civil partnerships’, which are essentially marriages, without the name or backing of the Established Church. Some Church’s will bless a ‘civil partnerships’, some will not; but you can get access to a loved one in Hospital , set up joint pensions and have all the legal backing that married people do.
On abortion, the advent of 3D ultrasound images from the womb is causes some people to question the 28 week limit, this is couple with the anger that fetuses are being abort this late for cleft-palet.
There is a growing desire to drop the limit to 24 weeks. My own bias would be for 22 weeks.
If states were allowed to decide of people could do these things, based on voters intentions, then this bitter issue would disappear. It would be better for the party to try this approach, rather than be thought to pack the SC and end abortion by stealth, an argument I have heard many times form Democrats.
I have been called a RINO, on this very board. But I think I represent a large number of potential Republican voters.
ruaqtpi2
15 years ago
Oldpuppymax and Lightbringer are on to something, and although some of their ideas may not be practical at the present time, there’s no reason why we should dismiss them as goals and ideals worthy of our aspiration.
I, for one, would like to take the monetary aspect out of public service. I’d like to see public service performed by people who really have a burning desire to serve the public instead of themselves. I’m not pretending that I have even the foggiest notion how to accomplish such a feat, but it sure seems possible to me. Why can’t government be run by a group of adults who pledge to honor the constitution and do the people’s business – and then actually fulfill their promises? The more closely we allow power and money to tempt our congressional leaders, we will always be setting ourselves up for disappointment.
Does anybody else think that public service should focus more on serving the public versus serving an individual’s lust for the limelight? Does anyone else agree that instead of being a glamorous occupation, public service ought to be a job for hardworking individuals willing to make personal sacrifices in return for the feeling of accomplishment that accompanies good old-fashioned honest, hard work?
Certainly I acknowledge that keeping lobbyist money away from government is not going to be easy, but isn’t it the right thing to do? Why isn’t this a no-brainer (or if it is a no-brainer, why have we allowed this to go on for decades?)
Jeff V
Hard Right
15 years ago
I see both sides of the GOP support issue. Most of the party just doesn’t seem to get it still
and the concern is that by supporting them, it will keep them from changing.
The other side is that if we refuse to support the efforts of those who do understand what needs
to be done, we may be guaranteeing failure.
I say we support the ones doing the right thing and pound the ones who keep slapping on their
knee pads to service the dems.
Hard Right
15 years ago
To elaborate on my earlier post, per alinskey’s strategy they used sleepers to gradually
infiltrate public office etc. by pretending to be moderates. Now that they control certain institutions
they make it a point to block Conservatives from getting into positions of authority.
Basically, Conservatives would have to go under cover and pretend to be one of “them”.
We also need to strongly encourage young Conservatives to go into academia and the legal profession.
Some will balk at sending their young ones off to an ideologocal war. My response would be
that the war is already afoot and we are losing. That happy future they want for their children will
not happen unless we take back our country.
Something else that needs to be done is that when the GOP gets into power is to destroy the funding for
groups like ACORN etc. We need to dismantle the machine they have built with taxpayer money.
I also find myself wondering where is our equivalent of Soros or other billionaires/millionaires? Why do we not have non-govt. funded recruiting organizations set up like the dems?
My father was in high school when Sputnik was launched. He related to me how he, like many others, were called
into the counselor’s office and told they needed to make a career choice right then and there! They were
pressed into going into math and engineering. They were told they had to go to college to help defeat russia.
Now I’m not proposing a collective “freak out” like that, but a rational organized effort.
Yes these are long term solutions, but they need to be started now.
Lightbringer
15 years ago
@Mike’s America
We have discussed supporting the new found Republican Conservative chorus recently, and I agree with you basically. Heck, I am not even suggesting we throw out the bath water yet, much less the baby. We can and should scoop out the turds floating around in the tub. Specter, Olympia Snowe etc. Also keep in mind my earlier point that some of these Republicans feel quite safe mouthing conservative platitudes, and even voting in unity with the conservative bloc when they know there is not a snowball’s chance in hell of messing up their big government gravy train. I am not saying they are all blowing smoke up our arses, but I’ll guarantee you that some of them are. We won’t do it overnight, but we need to start holding squishy Republicans to account on election day for actions they commit while in office, instead of just voting for them because they have an “R” in front of their name. That is why we have Primaries.
@DocMartyn
Well, the issues would not go away, but they would cease to be an entanglement in National fiscal and foreign affairs issues. The left deliberately draws attention to these canards to mask their irresponsible positions on the proper business of the federal government.
@Jeff V
I have an easy solution to the greed problem in Washington. Well, it might not solve the problem completely, but it would be a good start. Think about what happened when a dozen or so Washington “players” faced what amounts to an audit by the IRS during vetting for Obama’s administration. What would we find if everyone working for the Legislative branch were publicly “vetted” every year? Heck, just publicly audit every candidate for congress every election, incumbent and challenger. Of course, we would have to find some way of actually publishing such information about Democrat candidates, since the media would be loathe to do such about anyone but Republicans… It might be helpful to explain to the American people how civil servants who make approximately $250,000 a year go into Congress with almost nothing in net worth and come out 8 years later as multimillionaires.
Again, all very laudable GOALS above, but they don’t stand a chance of getting enacted if you can’t win elections FIRST and take back the congress and the white house.
@Lightbringer: Sorry, missed your comment above. Maybe it got caught in that spam filter.
I hope I was clear in my post how we should deal with the RINOS. Run conservatives against them in the primary.
If I recall, I didn’t even pull the lever in the general election for my states senior Senator Lindsey Graham because he’s walked off the reservation too many times. And he’s much more conservative than Specter in PA.
Again, if people feel squeamish about giving money to the RNC or the Congressional or Senatorial campaign committees they should contribute directly to candidates.
But, if all they are going to do is sit around and bitch, then they are part of the problem and not part of the solution.
Hard Right
15 years ago
I wasn’t discounting the short term goals Mike. 😉 We should be doing them in unison.
ditto
15 years ago
Actually, I think McCain got the nomination because the Republican party’s Conservative votes were divided up amongst too many candidates. (“Business” Republicans for Romney, many of the “Evangelical” for Huckabee, and some of the more “Libertarian/Constitutionalists” minded for Ron Paul.) If there had been one more moderate Republican candidate, I think McCain would not have won.
(Of course, then many Americans wouldn’t have ever heard of Sarah Palin.)
Republicans will not make a comeback until they drop the social issues. People who think all day about gay people seem strange. People who rail against marijuana come accross as “out of touch.” While people should stand up for what they believe, your image is bad. You’ve lost the next few generations because of your social issues, and you can’t start a revolution without the tweens.
However, a revolution that fought against large government could gain some steam. There are a lot of young libertarians out there.
The people you guys hate… are the future of your party. You should really pay attention to people like Meghan McCain. Follow Rush and you die a slow embarrasing death. Adults may find him controversial. The youth find him “played out.”
Mike, you are spot on! Looking at the sites for the Tea Parties and the 912 Project by Glenn Beck is a great place to find peope in your area that are starting to get involved. I bet others have other places to find people, as well.
Also, we cannot listen to people like Megan McCain (she is clueless) and lead the GOP with solid Conservative principles is the key. By listening to RINOs and moderates, we would end up losing again. When we gather with others and expose our beliefs to anyone, they need to be solid Conservative values and not these moderate and weak positions that loses elections.
Younger voters are going to come when they listen to points about how government is not the solution and it the problem. When they hear talk about optimism and freedom, they will come while the Left keeps taking our freedoms, playing class warfare, and telling everyone how bad they and America are. Besides tweens don’t vote and won’t vote consistently until their 30s. Counting on and pushing for youth vote never works.
http://franklinslocke.blogspot.com/
In 2008 about 24 million people under the age of 29 voted. Out of those 24 million who voted 16 million voted for Obama, 8 million for McCain. That was the exact difference in the popular vote overall. Americans have a pronounced tendency to stay with the party they started with, most young Americans will probably continue to vote for the Democrats. The only age group that McCain carried was the over 65 by 53% to 45% That group will be be getting smaller at about 20% per year. Democrat swin elections not because they are so good, it is because the republicans look so bad to too many Americans
@Dave: The truth is, the reason Republicans lost control of government is because their leaders stopped acting like conservatives and fell into the trap of bipartisanship, they tried to be moderates, and most of all, they spent money like they were liberals. When we let moderates like John and Meghan McCain become the mouthpieces of our party, we legitimized the left’s agenda and opened the door for their radical policies. McCain was so ready to deal with the devil because he thought they would put him on their shoulders and carry him to the White House. He forgot that when good negotiates with evil, evil always wins and good always loses. The answer is to always stand your ground, and never compromise your ideology.
Don’t let the fact that Meghan McCain is getting a lot of press confuse you into believing that she speaks for all of “the next few generations.” Meghan McCain is only getting press because the liberal MSM loves her. She speaks for the LEFT! She doesn’t speak for me or any conservative I know. My 18 year old son has a greater grasp of what it means to be a conservative than she ever will, because she is nothing more than a confused liberal who registered as a Republican so she could vote for her daddy.
As for losing “the next few generations because of (our) social issues?” Hogwash. The youth vote that we lost wasn’t because we “rail against marijuana.” That is as juvenile argument as you can make. If it was a Republican vs. Democrat issue, it would have been legalized during the four years of Carter, the first two years of Clinton, or in the last two months. In fact, the Democrats controlled the White House and Congress in 1937 when marijuana was banned at the federal level, and have controlled both houses of Congress for 50 of the 72 years since. During 28 of those years they had the Presidency at the same time. Your argument holds no water. As for gay rights, you can say us mean old Republicans are the bad guys in the gay rights movement, but the fact is California is the most liberal state in the nation, and voted twice to not recognize gay marriage. Since registered Republicans represent only 34% of California’s voting population, obviously a whole lot of Democrats had to vote for Prop 8 also. In fact, since only 75% of Republicans in the state supported Prop 8 (25.5% of the population), more than half of the 52.5% of California’s voters that voted for it had to be either Democrats or Independents.
We lost the youth vote because they spend 4 hours a day watching television that is dominated by progressive agendas. We lost them because they think Obama is a rock star. We lost them because they are the victims of a decades long effort by the left to take over the educational system. We lost them because we trusted that their teachers were teaching them arithmetic, and instead they were teaching them to be sheep. We lost them, because while the conservatives were at work creating the nations wealth, the liberals were playing their progressive little flutes and leading the children away.
We will take back our country by returning, as a party, to our conservative roots and ideology. If we lead, with resolute determination, “the next few generations” will follow.
Franklin,
You are correct about the fact that twenty somethings don’t vote (well the numbers weren’t horrible). But they indicate where the country is moving. Being a tween myself, I definitely feel that the conservative youth is more socially liberal than their parents.
Also, the whole RHINO/moderate thing is not politically viable. A person can be VERY conservative economically as well as VERY liberal socially (spending programs aside). What if a person wanted a low flat tax rate, that was largely a state tax and relativley no government regulation on business. However thought that prostitution should be legalized. That doesn’t make them a moderate anything. It’s not like they care about issues less or are willing to bend their principles more.
The problem is that social values and economic principles are difficult to marry. It makes politics more about choosing a team, then the issues.
I laugh every time I hear some elder Reagan repub (not talking about you; don’t know your age) say that young people will follow if only they listen to republicans speak. WHAT?! Really, think about the next young person who is becoming interested in politics. He or she most likely wants to be considered an intelligent person. They turn on the television and see Anne Coulter saying something like Al Gore is gay. All older repubs laugh their asses off (it’s funny). The tween imediately realizes that she sounds stupid (although she is actually smart). You could tell this kid that there are plenty of intelligent, interesting, thoughtful conservatives out there, but it doesn’t matter because you conservatives stand behind her. You stand behind Rush. You stand behind Ingraham. All are smart and talented people who attract ABSOLUTELY NOBODY to the party. That is why you fail. You want it all, and you can’t have it.
I’m not telling any conservative to give up their principles. But the republican party must change regardless of the conservative majority if they want to survive. Your party cannot win if you don’t give up the social issues.
I watched Meghan McCain on Larry King Live. Before this interview I assumed she was a light weight who was more interested in her “social life” than real issues. I was wrong. She was fascinating, and spoke eloquently about her political positions.
When I earlier wrote “tweens”, I meant twenty somethings.
John Ryan,
You are spot on.
This is one of ‘you guys’ that won’t be following Megan McCain’s lead. Sorry, I’d rather lose every election till I die. At some point you just have to follow your moral bearings and not succumb to trying to entice every social group to join your party.
The guy’s 50 some days into his Presidency and we are supposed to lay down with our legs in the air like a cockroach. Not me. Sorry Dave. I remember Clinton’s reign. It was short lived.
Besides Dave, I really don’t hate anyone. That’s your perception
I live in Northern California with every purple haired, tatooed, freak you can find. As long as they stay out my hair, they can do whatever they want.
.
@John ryan said: “Democrat swin elections not because they are so good, it is because the republicans look so bad to too many Americans”
And if there wasn’t a massive free media advantage provided by NBCCBSPBSABCNEWYORTIMESWASHINGTONPOSTTIMEMAGAZINE….. Americans wouldn’t have such a bad impression of Republicans.
Add to that the fact that the Daily Show is one of the prime sources of “news” for the younger generation and you explain the disparity of voting for Obama.
Yet as Lincoln said you cannot fool all the people all the time and I believe that must also apply to the young and the ignorant and maybe even the willfully uninformed.
Lucky for libs that they control the media. If there was a level playing field conservatives would win every election.
@Dave: If the GOP ditched social conservatives they wouldn’t be able to make up even half the difference with the mushy middle ground of folks you seem to believe are put off by strong stands on moral issues.
Besides, unless I am mistaken, you really don’t want us to win anyway so frankly, your advice ain’t worth much.
@Dave
Strangely enough, the “tweens” who were so much more socially liberal than their parents in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s grew up to elect Reagan twice. As they got firmly into their 40’s and 50’s they got serious and ushered in Newt and the Republican majority in congress in the 1990’s. Twenty-somethings are always more socially liberal than their elders. Once they start raising children, that often changes.
Btw, I am not even refuting your arguments, merely pointing out a few facts about humanity that have been true for as long as humans have been keeping history (and without a doubt long before that as well).
Tom in CA,
No man. I don’t think you understood. I don’t think conservatives or anyone should change their principles or lose their moral bearings. But the PARTY should change. It’s an institutional change. Not an individual one.
I never perceived that you hate anyone. I never even hinted at anything like that. People who are socially conservative aren’t bigots in my opinion. They have a set of principles that they want the government to enforce. I’m talking about the image of the party. If you want to keep the image, you lose. I respect you. You will not change just to help the party. But you lose. And will lose.
Here’s what you’re missing. The twenty somethings didn’t come out in huge numbers all together. But the margin is massive for Obama. The next young voters don’t want to be associated with the faces of your party.
In other words, the next generation doesn’t think that Ted Nugent is as radical as their parents do. They think Stephen Baldwin probably had no freinds in high school (anti marijuana). They think Rush reminds them of their crazy, cigar smoking grandpa. And they think Ingraham sounds like an angry soccer mom. There’s a generation gap that you guys can’t overcome.
Three things;
1) The GOP should launch its own investigation of corruption of Republican office holders. With the state of the media, not only should the Republican representatives be clean, they should be visibly clean. Nothing is going to work so well as a contrast.
2) Get the fuck out of peoples bedrooms and wombs. Morality is motile, different generation have different views. My 12 year old daughter has made up her mind about the morality of homosexuality and abortion; the first she doesn’t give a damn about and the second she views as a necessary evil. DONT make morality a party matter, it is distorting and alienates potential voters and makes bigots you mouth piece on the MSM.
3) Live up to your God damned promises. So don’t promise what you can’t deliver. Tell the American people that things will take a decade to fix and they will think you are truthful. Tell them that retirement age will have to be raised, and they will respect you. Tell them they will be farting through silk on 2 years and they might as well vote for the people who offer the same deal earlier.
The Democrats are going to be screwing up with greater frequency. This will be very fucked in 18 months. We have that time to clear the dead wood in the party and decide what sort of America we want and how we will get there. There are a lot of people, especially women, who would vote Republican but are put off by fears on a ban of abortion and on the ‘selfish’ nature that Republicanism is typically presented.
Make sure you pick Palin.
Lightbringer,
Well said. I agree. But that progression requires a better image for your party. For instance, Steele’s hip hop plan is embarrassing. Reagan was cool. He was different than Sarah Palin or Bobby Jindal. Your politicians do not have the ablility to communicate to the next generations.
Mike’s America,
I do want republicans to win if they dropped the social issues. I’m secretly rooting for some of you guys. I did go door to door for Obama. But I like the conservative economic mentality. I’m young and I see the future changing slightly. This shift will produce more and more socially liberal people, and the republican party will become smaller and smaller.
DocMartyn,
Right on. But then why Palin?
Also, I’m done responding. I feel like a jerk for loading this post. It wasn’t that bad, and it doesn’t deserve this many rebuttals.
@Dave: My last comment was lost in spam, but addresses your take on Republican social views. Hopefully someone will dig it out soon. You keep talking like you are representative of your whole generation, but you are not. EVERY generation thinks they are more progressive, more socially conscious, and smarter than the last, especially when they are young. Yes, the Democrats won this round, but not by the landslide you portray. 56 million people voted for the other guy. You can bash Rush all you want, but almost 30 million people tune in every week. As many people watch Fox News as MSNBC, CNN and CNN HN combined. Conservatives are talking and people are listening, people from every age group and demographic. If no one was listening or following the conservative viewpoint, the Democrats wouldn’t be trying to figure out a way to re-institute the fairness doctrine.
@Dave said: “I did go door to door for Obama.”
WOW! I never would have guessed.
You’re much younger than me so allow me to share with you some words of wisdom gleaned from years of experience: Lightbringer is correct and the tweens will figure out how badly they have been conned once they have enough information, perspective and experience to see it all more clearly.
If some people really want to continue voting for fools who bankrupt them and enslave their future just because they are socially liberal then I don’t really care to appeal to such morons.
@DocMartyn: Are you happy with Democrats intrusion into your wombs and bedrooms? Or is it only the moral position of Republicans that offends you?
I am a young college repub and I think this is a really constructive thread. A lot of good thoughts and ideas. That said, I am starting to realize something about my parents generation of conservatives. While they claim to be looking out for the future of our party, by holding on to social values, they are really just holding on to some sort of “branding” concept that THEY PERSONALLY identify with. In reality, it seems as if they are looking out more for themselves than the party. Lets face it, our parents generation is going to be gone faster than we think. And they are going to leave behind a fragmented mess of a party for us to clean up. To me it is obvious, lets drop the social issues (I can still practice my set of morals with out the gov’t enforcing them), lets champion our fiscally conservative ideology (everyone knows we stomp the dems in this territory), and lets see where it takes us in the next 8 to 12 years. I think we would all be pleasantly surprised. Unfortunately, for our parents, this tide will not turn around in 4 years. Our party needs some major restructuring, this will take time, but dropping the social issues is a good place to start.
@Mike’s America
You just perfectly illustrated my point with your last post. It seems like “Dave” is someone who has the potential of switching parties and voting republican, but your words are alienating, rather than inviting. The more your generation of repubs finds offense in everything and attacks at everything, the less chance we have of turning this party around. I think it’s time for the torch to be passed down. Like Bob Dylan once sang, “The times they are a changing”. Come on Mike, it’s never to late to hop on board.
@otis: Otis, as I told Dave, I am older than you. But I still remember the moment when I was old enough and wise enough to realize my parents were right all along.
You may think differently about those social issues once you are more aware of the consequences of a party platform or government policy devoid of such considerations.
And again, if it comes down to a choice of dropping social issues and alientating the millions who feel deeply enough about them to be motivated to work on campaigns and give money or dropping the mushy middle grounders who have no firm beliefs and are notoriously unreliable party activists the choice is clear.
Otis,
I said I wouldn’t respond again, but you see exactly what I see. The college crowd has a different perspective, and that includes conservatives. Republicans do kick ass on the economy. Unfortunately they’re carrying some “toxic assets” in the social arena.
Mike’s America,
I’m in my mid twenties. I said I mispoke (wrote?) when I said “tween.” I don’t think you feel the shift. I also agree with Lightbringer, but the times are a changin. This time less kids will become socially conservative when they have kids.
I said I supported Obama to speak honestly, probably in hopes that the response wouldn’t be in the form of an ad hominem attack. I was wrong. Attack the point, not the man who speaks it. It only shows your inability to construct a good argument.
The spam filter is just plain evil lately. Must be the vast left wing conspiracy. That, or Akismet was written by a “social liberal”. 🙂
@otis: In case you hadn’t noticed Dave voted for Obama.
Frankly, I’m rather skeptical of his claim of wanting to vote for the GOP. If only we could be more like Obama.
Well sorry guys. When you are older you will realize how much of a non starter that one is and the reasons why.
Obviously you won’t listen if I told you as apparently my experience is not something you even consider.
I’ve been where you are. Can you say the same? No.
You don’t know what you don’t know.
Mike,
Good post.
It seems to me like Dave/Otis is attempting to be constructive.
You did ask,
And I think he is trying to weigh in his two cents.
Might not agree with him, but I think it’s a worthy discussion to be pursued by those interested.
Personally, I think if it’s image we’re talking about, the conservative image has been as much a creation of liberal opponents as much as anything Coulter or Rush has done to tarnish. Do they offer fodder for the Democrats? Often, what these popular pundits say gets twisted. Like Mike, I believe the GOP has been maligned, slandered, and caricaturized successfully over the years by its opponents, through media, Hollywood, and indoctrination in the school system. Somehow, it’s become the party of racists, the greedy and rich, warmongering neocons, homophobes, and Jesus Camp religious nuts.
What baffles me, is why there’s always talk of “social conservatives”, but not “social liberals”. The Democrats make social issues as much a part of their platform as Republicans. Am I wrong on this? Morality preaching isn’t exclusive to just Republicans. Democrats give their daily dose of moralizing all the time.
@Wisdom:
Yeah, I had to fish my own self out of the filter just now. Sheesh!
Dear Dave,
Now I understand, you are in your 20’s and perhaps in college. I was in college in the early 70’s. Take a look a some of the photos of colleges in those years. Remember Vietnam, maybe Kent State? Think there was a huge Republican presence on campus then? OK. Now, look at the historical Presidential elections from Johnson to present. I really don’t remember a huge pandering to college age students and yet Republicans did fairly well.
In my 50’ish view, after building a small business and raising children is this. My perspective on winning back congressional seats and the WH, is stay the course. Don’t waiver. Maintain your ideals in the face of a setback. Obama’s victory was not a landslide. There is a group in the squishy middle that switched to him. They will come back with his failure. Good luck and thanks for your response.
Tom in CA
@Dave and Otis,
You both bring up interesting arguments. Social issues as a alienating force is a poignant and articulate point that needs discussing. The Republican party has a strong backbone of fiscal conservatism that is consistently overshadowed by the social issues that smell more and more like hate mongering to a generation that is exposed, and deeply embedded, with the very things and people that these issues reject. Every young person knows someone who is homosexual, had an abortion or smokes pot, or they have been in these positions themselves, and they learn to live with them, meaning that even if they do disagree, they know it is socially unacceptable to say so. In this way, a party that champions conservatism on these issues will also seem socially unacceptable. Thus, the younger generation will be immediately turned off by the Republican party, and will never have the chance to learn of the benefits of a conservative economical system. The Republican party signifies bigotry and hate to the younger generation, and it allows them to feel elitist as an open-minded liberal. The economic issues are not even considered by them.
Thanks to the both of you for bringing this up!
@Mike’s America:
Belittling and demeaning a younger person who is trying to have an honest dialogue is part of the hate mongering that needs to stop. If you do have experience as an effective communicator, then you should try to encourage such commentary, and answer it directly.
Dave/Otis/Elsie
Stop with the sockpuppetry or you will be banned with the other sockpuppets. Everytime you comment, everytime you even view the page, your IP is recorded. You first commented with an IP of 98.119.106.234, then this one with a IP of 71.133.87.15, then you commented under the name Otis with the same IP as the first one, 98.119.106.234, twice….then switched back to Dave under 71.133.87.15….and now Elsie with the same IP.
Your making yourself look like a fool.
my [arents are republicans and as a teen and a twenty something i felt compelled to rebel, i voted for ross perot because he was against motorcycle helmets. seriously of all the freakin issues i could have picked i picked that, it was my very first presdintial election. i can say that i never voted for a democrat for president, but i felt republicans were stuffy old men who fondled kids in closets or something. i voted for dems at the local and state level, then i had my kids. let me tell you that changed everything for me, i started to read alot, really look at the issues that mattered to me and my family. then i “saw the light” and realized that my parents weren’t stupid, that repubs weren’t dirty old men and that i was pissed by what i had not been paying attention to. i could careless if someone wants to be stoned out of their head, but they had better not be sucking up my tax dollars to do it, they also better not be breeding like octomom either. i am a fiscal and socail conservative and i am proud of it. i have people i talk to who are dumb struck that i believe as i do, they tell me i don’t look like a republican. i guess we come in all shapes and sizes, i smoke, drink, collor my hair crazy colors and love to be crazy in a respnsible way. yay me. i take care of my family with zero help from the government and i pay my fair share and i vote. i am the person dave was sure would never turn from the dem party, guess what i did. yeah i called myself an independent, but i think that at heart i was really a conservative.
@Elsie:
Uh…yeah, it’s almost like there’s a mind-meld going on or something between you….um…..three? . 😉
Curt,
Elsie and I are now laughing with eachother about this. She is here with me, and I didn’t know about it. Can’t say anything about Otis. Don’t know where he or she is coming from. I was stoked to hear he agreed with what I was talking about. I’ll find out later probably. I mean everything I say. And I do not troll. Follow any earlier responses I have left, and you will see my consistency.
Wordsmith,
you are right about social democrats.
Mike,
I mean no harm to your post. I only wanted to start a good discussion. Elsi and Otis are not my responsibility. Elsie is honest about where she is coming from.
What about DocMartyn? haha.
And away you go…buh bye
Cute… got a bunch here that are desperate to make the GOP solely about abortion and drugs, yet join the choir when that same party tries to return to fiscal prudence. I believe the TOTUS/POTUS and his political thug team calls it “tired old ideas”.
Funny… I must have missed the moment when being fiscally prudent went out of vogue.
Perhaps if you all would realize that the entire GOP party membership doesn’t revolve around religion and moral issues, but the role of government and control of spending (at least in party philosophy if not their actions over the past decade), you might find you have more in common with those you love to despise.
… or not. Perhaps you’ve been too indoctrinated in social and economic justice curricula.
@Dave: so as a door to door person for the obama campaign do you condone some of the tactics that were taken by the campiagn? do you condone the “hate mongering” that i pesonally experienced? i was asked by a client who i was voting for, and me being outspoken anyway and honest i answered that i was voting for the old guy and palin. i thought the old guy part was funny, so she flips out, totally, and starts screaming that palin will take woment back to being barefoot and pregnant and that i should burn in hell for voting for that ticket. seriously, the last thing you should do is say something like that to a person who is holding and using very, very sharp scissors next to your head while you are getting a haircut. i had much more thrown at me, i am strong and can take it, but i was surprised that the “party of tolerance” really wasn’t and was in fact much more angry and hateful than any conservative i have ever come across.
I thought I smelled a rat.
Dave, if you are still floating around out there let me give your young unformed mind a bit of advice. It’s an old saying, you’ve probably heard your parents or your grandparents use it before and no doubt you have ignored it:
HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY!
Coming here representing yourself as something you are not and using a bevy of fake names is a sure sign you are not someone that any of us should take seriously.
Therefore, no idea you have expressed regarding the GOP dumping it’s most ardent, longtime and most loyal supporters carries any weight or validity at all.
Your a fake, a phony and apparently a fool.
Sort of reminds me of this guy who showed up at an antiwar rally during the Bush years:
Turns out the guy was NOT a Republican but just another liar who thought that since every lefty he knew was a liar he thought no one would notice the difference if he gave it a whirl.
No wonder you want the GOP to drop moral issues. You clearly don’t know the difference between lying and truth.
What a shame you didn’t listen to your parents!
I sure missed out. Just wanted to point out leftists like dave simply accept what they are
told about Conservatives by thier lefty peers or just stereotype them just to feel superior
and good about themselves. Being a lefty is pure narcissism and elitism.
The spam filter has struck again.
Mike, I will have to hit your blog later to read your post, but here are things
Conservatives need to do to gradually take back America.
1) Take back education at all levels
2) Take back the media
3) Take back the legal system.
I’m not able to go into detai right now, but will later today.
The present crop of DC republicans is a scurvy, classless, unprincipled lot. McCain was the nominee last year because it was “his turn.” He was far more interested in remaining the bipartisan media darling of yore, than he was in winning the election. And the group with its lips perpetually attached to his rear end loved him for it. After all, nothing he did or said threatened to create one of those “hide under the desk lest I be forced to take a stand” moments. The rest of our “conservative” heroes, from the steel-spined Orrin Hatch to the ever pensive (and we should therefore worship his mind) Arlen Specter, can’t wait for those ever-present opportunities to betray the nation and the American public. How better to become the object of fawning attention from the true masters of political power…the national press corps. As for the handful of actual Americans currently serving in Washington–that is, the patriots–they are either thoroughly ignored by friend and foe alike, or roundly attacked for suggesting that the Constitution might still be a useful guide for political action. And their treatment quickly convinces the “smart” party members that it is better to agree with democrats and keep your job, power, earmarks and open avenue to Wall Street millions than put any faith in mold-ridden documents and the senile idealists who wrote them. Until we rid ourselves of republicans and democrats alike, remove all 535 from congress and replace them with individuals forced to govern according to the Constitution, the rights and freedom each actual American citizen took so long for granted will never return.
@Hard Right: Those are all laudable long term goals. My focus is on the immediate steps which are required before we might reach those goals.
Let’s face it: we’re going to be at a disadvantage for some time to come in the areas you cite so we have to work even harder and do what we can in the areas under our control.
There are still a sizeable number of people who are inclined to support conservatives and still don’t vote regularly if at all.
And there are millions more who would vote for us if they only heard our message instead of getting it from sources who want us to lose (see above for more on that).
I agree with Old Puppy, a severe house cleaning and a return to Constitutional principles should be our long term goals. Hell, if we adhered to the Constitution, all these social issues would be more properly sorted out by individual states. If you wanted your 15 year old to be able to legally smoke pot in the waiting room of the free abortion clinic next to the gay marriage chapel, all you would have to do would be to move to California and quit trying to shove that sort of thing down the rest of our throats.
When I was ignorant, younger and stupid, I actually supported Al Gore during Clinton’s time.
That was after I read his writings on the environment and his life.
Little did I realize that I was being conned by a dumbass american conman. What utter stupidity and gullibility on my part!!!!
Luckily as I grew older, I had more experience in working and investing(my work is investing, incidentally) and I started to realize that the truth often was directly opposite of what was portrayed in your mainstream american big media. And without the truth, I would not able to understand your markets, your politics and your financial system—fatal for my job.
For instance, just take anthropogenic global warming and alternative energy fuels. They simply aren’t practical or economic unless oil is well above where it is now. Thus to trade and invest in any energy, one has to understand the conjob of AGW and also the politics of energy in america.
My point is that young people are stupid and can easily be conned(like I was). But as they grow older, and gain experience and responsibility from working, running businesses, investing, and raising a family, they soon start to leave the extreme liberal mindset and start to become conservative.
Hopefully this will be the same for those gullible and dumb young americans who were conned into voting for Obama.
Comment removed by Mata for pointless profanity
Thanks Mata. I just saw that and it was pretty pointless. I can be a bit of a potty mouth myself and have had to resist the temptation to yell HORSES#*T a couple of times on this thread.
@sigmundringeck: You were just like millions who got sucked into Al Gore’s scam. But most of them are coming slowly to their senses as they realize he’s just a scaremongering greenie whoring for his own financial gain.
@OLDPUPPYMAX:
@Lightbringer:
Just so you two don’t propose throwing the baby out with the bathwater. McCain isn’t the nominee anymore and President Bush is no longer holding back House and Senate GOP.
Our team has been making some unified, very strong and welcome statements lately and I do hope you recognize that.
As I have said before if we all sit here and refuse to support the GOP unless it meets some impossible standard of conservative purity then we better get used to being governed by liberals for a very long time.
Lightbringer
“Hell, if we adhered to the Constitution, all these social issues would be more properly sorted out by individual states.”
That is exactly the sort of thing that the GOP could go for. I am English and watched the Conservative Party run out of ideas and personal morality. It has been out of power for 12 years, and has spent a decade trying to win arguments within the party, rather than win votes. This has given us 12 years of tax and spend, and we are now fucked beyond your imagination.
In the US Abortion/Gay marriage is a litmus test; in the UK it was the attitude to integration in Europe.
In the UK, things like IVF/Abortion/Gay rights are not ‘whipped’ and are not party political. The Gay marriage question in the UK was handled by having ‘civil partnerships’, which are essentially marriages, without the name or backing of the Established Church. Some Church’s will bless a ‘civil partnerships’, some will not; but you can get access to a loved one in Hospital , set up joint pensions and have all the legal backing that married people do.
On abortion, the advent of 3D ultrasound images from the womb is causes some people to question the 28 week limit, this is couple with the anger that fetuses are being abort this late for cleft-palet.
There is a growing desire to drop the limit to 24 weeks. My own bias would be for 22 weeks.
If states were allowed to decide of people could do these things, based on voters intentions, then this bitter issue would disappear. It would be better for the party to try this approach, rather than be thought to pack the SC and end abortion by stealth, an argument I have heard many times form Democrats.
I have been called a RINO, on this very board. But I think I represent a large number of potential Republican voters.
Oldpuppymax and Lightbringer are on to something, and although some of their ideas may not be practical at the present time, there’s no reason why we should dismiss them as goals and ideals worthy of our aspiration.
I, for one, would like to take the monetary aspect out of public service. I’d like to see public service performed by people who really have a burning desire to serve the public instead of themselves. I’m not pretending that I have even the foggiest notion how to accomplish such a feat, but it sure seems possible to me. Why can’t government be run by a group of adults who pledge to honor the constitution and do the people’s business – and then actually fulfill their promises? The more closely we allow power and money to tempt our congressional leaders, we will always be setting ourselves up for disappointment.
Does anybody else think that public service should focus more on serving the public versus serving an individual’s lust for the limelight? Does anyone else agree that instead of being a glamorous occupation, public service ought to be a job for hardworking individuals willing to make personal sacrifices in return for the feeling of accomplishment that accompanies good old-fashioned honest, hard work?
Certainly I acknowledge that keeping lobbyist money away from government is not going to be easy, but isn’t it the right thing to do? Why isn’t this a no-brainer (or if it is a no-brainer, why have we allowed this to go on for decades?)
Jeff V
I see both sides of the GOP support issue. Most of the party just doesn’t seem to get it still
and the concern is that by supporting them, it will keep them from changing.
The other side is that if we refuse to support the efforts of those who do understand what needs
to be done, we may be guaranteeing failure.
I say we support the ones doing the right thing and pound the ones who keep slapping on their
knee pads to service the dems.
To elaborate on my earlier post, per alinskey’s strategy they used sleepers to gradually
infiltrate public office etc. by pretending to be moderates. Now that they control certain institutions
they make it a point to block Conservatives from getting into positions of authority.
Basically, Conservatives would have to go under cover and pretend to be one of “them”.
We also need to strongly encourage young Conservatives to go into academia and the legal profession.
Some will balk at sending their young ones off to an ideologocal war. My response would be
that the war is already afoot and we are losing. That happy future they want for their children will
not happen unless we take back our country.
Something else that needs to be done is that when the GOP gets into power is to destroy the funding for
groups like ACORN etc. We need to dismantle the machine they have built with taxpayer money.
I also find myself wondering where is our equivalent of Soros or other billionaires/millionaires? Why do we not have non-govt. funded recruiting organizations set up like the dems?
My father was in high school when Sputnik was launched. He related to me how he, like many others, were called
into the counselor’s office and told they needed to make a career choice right then and there! They were
pressed into going into math and engineering. They were told they had to go to college to help defeat russia.
Now I’m not proposing a collective “freak out” like that, but a rational organized effort.
Yes these are long term solutions, but they need to be started now.
@Mike’s America
We have discussed supporting the new found Republican Conservative chorus recently, and I agree with you basically. Heck, I am not even suggesting we throw out the bath water yet, much less the baby. We can and should scoop out the turds floating around in the tub. Specter, Olympia Snowe etc. Also keep in mind my earlier point that some of these Republicans feel quite safe mouthing conservative platitudes, and even voting in unity with the conservative bloc when they know there is not a snowball’s chance in hell of messing up their big government gravy train. I am not saying they are all blowing smoke up our arses, but I’ll guarantee you that some of them are. We won’t do it overnight, but we need to start holding squishy Republicans to account on election day for actions they commit while in office, instead of just voting for them because they have an “R” in front of their name. That is why we have Primaries.
@DocMartyn
Well, the issues would not go away, but they would cease to be an entanglement in National fiscal and foreign affairs issues. The left deliberately draws attention to these canards to mask their irresponsible positions on the proper business of the federal government.
@Jeff V
I have an easy solution to the greed problem in Washington. Well, it might not solve the problem completely, but it would be a good start. Think about what happened when a dozen or so Washington “players” faced what amounts to an audit by the IRS during vetting for Obama’s administration. What would we find if everyone working for the Legislative branch were publicly “vetted” every year? Heck, just publicly audit every candidate for congress every election, incumbent and challenger. Of course, we would have to find some way of actually publishing such information about Democrat candidates, since the media would be loathe to do such about anyone but Republicans… It might be helpful to explain to the American people how civil servants who make approximately $250,000 a year go into Congress with almost nothing in net worth and come out 8 years later as multimillionaires.
Again, all very laudable GOALS above, but they don’t stand a chance of getting enacted if you can’t win elections FIRST and take back the congress and the white house.
@Lightbringer: Sorry, missed your comment above. Maybe it got caught in that spam filter.
I hope I was clear in my post how we should deal with the RINOS. Run conservatives against them in the primary.
If I recall, I didn’t even pull the lever in the general election for my states senior Senator Lindsey Graham because he’s walked off the reservation too many times. And he’s much more conservative than Specter in PA.
Again, if people feel squeamish about giving money to the RNC or the Congressional or Senatorial campaign committees they should contribute directly to candidates.
But, if all they are going to do is sit around and bitch, then they are part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I wasn’t discounting the short term goals Mike. 😉 We should be doing them in unison.
Actually, I think McCain got the nomination because the Republican party’s Conservative votes were divided up amongst too many candidates. (“Business” Republicans for Romney, many of the “Evangelical” for Huckabee, and some of the more “Libertarian/Constitutionalists” minded for Ron Paul.) If there had been one more moderate Republican candidate, I think McCain would not have won.
(Of course, then many Americans wouldn’t have ever heard of Sarah Palin.)