04/07/10 – New updates below
And those reporters paid the price for their ignorance.
What unbelievable knuckleheads the left and the MSM are.
Making the rounds over the last few days is this video in which Wikileaks says there were unarmed civilian reporters who were killed for no other reason than they had cameras.
Complete and utter bulls&%t.
This was 2007 people. There was still a war going on. And it sucks that the reporters deemed it necessary to embed themselves with the enemy, but they knew full well what the results might be.
Rusty at The Jawa Report has screen shots of the video clearly showing that the men they were milling about with were armed, that there was in fact RPG’s amongst them and that they appeared about to engage American troops. If you’re a civilian and you stick around with that crowd you will pay the price, and that’s what happened here.
On top of this the lefties and the media are up in arms about the van that came to pick up the wounded.
But you drive your van into an active military engagement? What the hell were you thinking?
You are stupid. Innocent, but stupid. You’re asking to be killed.
And if you brought children into the midsts of an ongoing military engagement that makes you more than stupid: it makes you criminally negligent.
“It’s their fault for bringing their kids to a battle,” says one of the Americans on the video. Indeed it is.
People, this is war. This happens in war. It can’t be avoided. If you want to end civilian casualties then end war. Start by asking armed Islamists to put down their weapons. But you won’t do that because your real objection isn’t war, it’s America. Which is why anti-war activists around the globe never protest al-Qaeda, only America.
They’re not anti-war, they’re anti-American.
Again, watch it. It’s tragic, yes. War is tragic.
…the video clearly shows that the vehicle in question bore no markings of a rescue vehicle at all, and the men who ran out of the van to grab the wounded man wore no uniforms identifying themselves as such. Under any rules of engagement, and especially in a terrorist hot zone like Baghdad in 2007, that vehicle would properly be seen as support for the terrorists that had just been engaged and a legitimate target for US forces. While they didn’t grab weapons before getting shot, the truth is that the gunships didn’t give them the chance to try, either — which is exactly what they’re trained to do. They don’t need to wait until someone gets hold of the RPG launcher and fires it at the gunship or at the reinforcements that had already begun to approach the scene. The gunships acted to protect the approaching patrol, which is again the very reason we had them in the air over Baghdad.
Baghdad in July 2007 was a very violent place, and the neighborhoods of Sadr City and New Baghdad were breeding grounds for the Mahdi Army and associated Iranian-backed Shia terror groups. The city was a war zone. To describe the attack you see in the video as “murder” is a sensationalist gimmick that succeeded in driving tons of media attention and traffic to Wikileaks’ website.
Couple lessons here.
The left will believe anything that makes Americans and it’s heroes appear like bloodlusting murderers. Case in point, Haditha.
The other two lessons is for future reporters and “rescuers”
Number 1, don’t embed with RPG toting terrorists and you won’t be fired upon by gunships. Number 2, if you’re gonna drive a vehicle into a combat scene to save the day, put something on the vehicle that would identify you as a rescuer.
Nuff’ said.
UPDATE
Doug Ross posts on the video with some great still shots clearly showing the weapons mentioned earlier. Check it out here:
Yes, there was a huge cover-up, which is why CENTCOM released the results of the entire freaking investigation, only to have it cleverly edited into an infomercial and fundraising vehicle for the enemies of America.
UPDATE
A spokesman for U.S. Central Command was interviewed by Fox:
The problem, according to many who have viewed the video, is that WikiLeaks appears to have done selective editing that tells only half the story. For instance, the Web site takes special care to slow down the video and identify the two photographers and the cameras they are carrying.
However, the Web site does not slow down the video to show that at least one man in that group was carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, a clearly visible weapon that runs nearly two-thirds the length of his body.
WikiLeaks also does not point out that at least one man was carrying an AK-47 assault rifle. He is seen swinging the weapon below his waist while standing next to the man holding the RPG.
“It gives you a limited perspective,” said Capt. Jack Hanzlik, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command. “The video only tells you a portion of the activity that was happening that day. Just from watching that video, people cannot understand the complex battles that occurred. You are seeing only a very narrow picture of the events.”
Hanzlik said images gathered during a military investigation of the incident show multiple weapons around the dead bodies in the courtyard, including at least three RPGs.
“Our forces were engaged in combat all that day with individuals that fit the description of the men in that video. Their age, their weapons, and the fact that they were within the distance of the forces that had been engaged made it apparent these guys were potentially a threat,” Hanzlik said.
Military officials have also pointed out that the men in the video are the only people visible on those streets. That indicated something was going on and that these individuals still felt they could walk freely, one official told Fox News.
And now the Wikileaks editor and founder admits that yeah, maybe their were weapons but they were just protecting their area by firing upon US soldiers:
Julian Assange, a WikiLeaks editor, acknowledged to Fox News in an interview Tuesday evening that “it’s likely some of the individuals seen in the video were carrying weapons.”
Assange said his suspicions about the weapons were so strong that a draft version of the video they produced made specific reference to the AK-47s and RPGs. Ultimately, Assange said, WikiLeaks became “unsure” about the weapons. He claimed the RPG could have been a camera tripod, so editors decided not to point it out.
“Based upon visual evidence I suspect there probably were AKs and an RPG, but I’m not sure that means anything,” Assange said. Nearly every Iraqi household has a rifle or an AK. Those guys could have just been protecting their area.”
Oh, and lets take a look at this Julian Assange, courtesy of The Jawa Report:
An email from armaros points out that Wiki Leak founder Julian Assange likes to hang out on Truther websites and give them interviews.
He claims to defend citizens privacy against state surveillance but publishes personal SMS messages from 911 victims and their families.
And he writes for the antii-American far Left Counterpunch.
See author page
Embed yourself with the enemy, die with the enemy. That simple.
After all the evidence of “reporters” working to spread the enemies propaganda, I cheered every time one of them got blowed up. I see nothing “tragic” here. I see good aim.
Life is about choices. The reporters made bad choices and died because they chose to embed with the enemy. I wonder if the other reporters will figure it out. Nope I do not think so.
THEY also put our militarys in danger and disrupt the engagement of war,that has to be figure out every time by commanders the journalists should not be allowed in there they are protected by soldiers and also put the soldiers in danger,
What’s utterly disingenuous of these traitors to our own troops who complain about “war crimes” is that in their rush to pre-judge their fellow Americans, they completely omit a basic question: why would Reuters journalist embed with ordinary Joe Iraqi citizens? Boring! No, they embedded with those who could provide a news story worth covering, such as, “The heroic defenders against the crusaders.” THEY WERE EMBEDDING WITH TERRORISTS.
But how many posts have I read from the ignorant left who insist that these RPG carrying thugs were innocent men simply lurking around. Right. The people I know are average American working class people and they have journalists embedding with them all the time. Their stupidity should shame them, but yet they post on and on.
right you are and on top of that the soldiers have to be under rules of engagment and under equiped with needs of major equipments,what does that means to us civiliens who are folowing news of that war that is seems to be prolonged further than it should for the sake of their lifes…the responsible of doing thoses decisions base the warzone as video games they stupidly play with bye 🙄
I feel nothing. You are not presumed innocent if walking around with an RPG or hanging out with your bud that has one… and you and your bud have AK’s. This was a war zone and there is nothing added after the fact that changes that. You have imbedded journalists right there? Dead. Kids are driven up in a van? Van blown up. It’s real time vs 20/20 hindsight.
War is what it is. decisions have to be made based on experience and what appears to be a valid interpretation of the event at the time… in a way to engage the enemy, but not inflict civilian damage, much less death and injury. Our military fights like no peer. We are above the rest with our political limits and ROE’s. Plus, most genuinely want to do what is right.
I have nothing but contempt for the critics of the war and of the US by using this as propaganda against us. This is nothing more than propaganda against us during a time of war. The anti-war left will go to any length to weaken us and defeat us in wartime. There is a name for this.
Sucks to be them. Looks & sounds to me that the ROE’s were followed.
Sh*t happens, especially in bad guy territory.
YPPIE21 hi you know the journalist where probably going there for a thrill vacation and it happen,bye 🙄
Nutty lefty atheist liberal here, just weighing in to say… I don’t see any issue. As a wet-behind-the-ears civilian, I do regret having watched the footage that will likely haunt my dreams for many nights to come. War is hell, and I am glad as hell that we have a volunteer army of men and women willing to put their lives on the line for the freedoms and security I try to not take for granted. If the American soldiers who fired had reasonable confidence that these men were enemy combatants preparing for an ambush of fellow US soldiers (or innocent Iraqi civilians for the matter), then this group of men obviously got what they had coming to them. And as for the reporters standing side-by-side with armed combatants in a war-zone, again as a civilian, but also as a father, I lack the callousness that many here seem to have. It struck me as utterly tragic, and I damn near lost it when the wounded reporter was killed in the second barrage of gunfire. Pending other details, I just give these journalists the benefit of the doubt (and feel that heads should be rolling within the Reuters organization as we work out what kind of training, rules, and instructions they were giving their journalists before sending them out into the field).
So, yes, I did and still do question the high-level decision to enter into this war; and frankly, I do question a bit the rules of engagement that led to the second barrage of gunfire on the van (but as a civilian, I defer to our military leadership to work out rules of engagement that most likely assure our victory in an armed conflict while not violating Geneva convention and humanitarian standards). However, I do not hold any moral culpability to the men who pulled the trigger; in fact, I’d gladly shake their hands, buy them a drink, and thank them for doing the job they volunteered to do.
@Kevin
A rational point of view, if I’ve ever seen one. Not bad for a liberal. 😉
But speaking as one of the more “callous”, let me explain that it stems from being first, an old warrior who took life, and second, the now father of one of those warriors that this type of “reporter” puts into danger, and furthermore helps the moral and recruitment of the men who would kill him. Bringing children to the front lines is an tried and true enemy tactic. The Arabs did it in 1969, and they continue today.
A feature, not a bug. They don’t feel as you do. That’s why we need liberal help in fighting this war, in ways that Marines can’t.
When I view the footage, my right hand is squeezing the trigger with all my might.
I have a collection of all the “snuff” films the enemy has released over the years, including the ones Saddam’s forces performed on their own people. You want nightmares? The little strip you just saw was a Disney-film compared to what these savages regularly do.
I envy your shock, and very much appreciate your heart-felt regards to those who fight. We need more liberals around who still have warm feelings for the “sheepdogs”.
Reuters is chock full of “Newsies” that are sympathetic to terrorists and make every attempt to get capture of alleged ‘war crimes’ evidence that fits their agenda. I have seen this first hand.
They made a poor choice and were with armed individuals that were up to no good. This footage is over 3 years old and why it is an issue now is beyond me. This is not a 1st Amendment Freedom of the Press issue by any standard. It is just idiots that were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
al Sadr’s folks are not Boy Scouts and they knew it.
File this under Terminal Stupidity.
Alas, war often brings the battle to a kid’s neighborhood. That’s the only sad truth I’m taking from the video.
What is awkward, and mostly disturbing, is how most public media in the United States and in European press ignore the “bystanders” the pilots are discussing about and assume it is the news reporters’ cameras that the pilots are discussing.
Even gaming sites I visit such as Kotaku or Gamespy does not comment on the people the reporters are “visiting” nor pay attention to their kits as they assume the pilots are talking about those reporters. It’s embrassing for the press to do this, and even more embrassing for WikiLeaks.
They embedded with the terrorists, to get some great shots. They did. Reuters is responsible.
Left wing propaganda. Proper ROE- you protect your sons and daughters. Well done.
If the American soldiers who fired had reasonable confidence that these men were enemy combatants preparing for an ambush of fellow US soldiers (or innocent Iraqi civilians for the matter), then this group of men obviously got what they had coming to them.
So whether they deserved to die hinges on the soldier’s perception of the situation, nothing more? That’s a very strange proposition; even if our soldiers make mistakes, the people they kill deserve their fate, so long as we sincerely *believe* they were up to no good!
I see nothing “tragic” here.
You must have missed the kids in the video, if nothing else.
This footage is over 3 years old and why it is an issue now is beyond me.
Because it wasn’t available to the public until a few days ago, obviously. Unfortunately this does mean that people evaluating the video (at least, the typically forgetful ones…) are lacking the historical context of the war at that time; if this video reflected something that happened *today* in Iraq, I would wonder what the hell was going on, but the ROE in that place and time were necessarily more permissive.
BBARTLOG we where kidding yesterday but today some tragedy at war please go check OBAMA rules of engagement,i just come back from there,and i am shock from horror,,
PATVANN check ..OBAMA rules of engagement in afghanistan,if you have’nt done it already
@Bees
I am very familiar with the new ROE. Would it help you to feel a little better if I told you that our soldiers and Marines have ways to work within the new rules, that keep them just as safe as with the old rules?
Hint for you: The Afghanistan Army do not use our ROE, and they are right next to our men during battle.
When we see a “badguy” without his weapon, this means we can not kill him…but by using patience, and observation, we watch until he DOES pick one up…
-then his head explodes from a sniper-bullet fired from 500 meters away.
It is frustrating, but insurgency-war is very different than kicking Nazi’s out of our beloved Riquewihr vineyards, no? 😉
Interestingly there seems to be some disagreement in the media as to whether these guys ultimately turned out to be armed. In the WaPo we read
‘Turner said the military had released documents to Reuters last year in response to the FOIA request showing the presence of weapons on the scene, including AK-47 rifles and an RPG 7 grenade launcher. ‘
But the AP says
‘A military investigation later concluded that what was thought to be an RPG was really a long-range photography lens; likewise, the camera looked like an AK-47.’
But while this might affect our opinion of the Reuters reporters it has no bearing on the justifiability of the shooting.
@bbartlog
Have a look here, because as a man who has done some photography, I’ve never seen a pointed, 4ft-long lens…especially one not connected to a camera, carried by a “cameraman” who has no camera on him.
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/ and here: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201878.php
And I’ll trust Bill Roggio for the final word:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/collateral-murder-baghdad-anything
The AP would have preferred to have American deaths by 308 cameras and 3.5 long range lenses, so that we would be justified in sending these guys to Hell. Personally, I think traveling with the enemy is treason and death by 30 caliber is a form of social justice, a pretrial negotiated settlement; besides being, just another day in a war.
“Personally, I think traveling with the enemy is treason…”
Is there any evidence they actually were traveling with the enemy? Do we really even know who it was they were with, there on the street?
PATVANN yes BUT did you go on that post OBAMA rules of engagementon afghanistan now? some died thereon an engagement ecetera tragedy
@Patvann:
Did you follow the Blackfive link that Rusty posted? Includes photos of a Reuters studio room in Fallujah!
UPDATE II: A source has sent me the following photos with the notation that Reuters is not to be trusted around insurgents. These show a rather extensive video editing/production set up found by U.S./Coalition in 2004 in/near Fallujah. Those who know, know that at that time no one was in that area that was not a part of or fully approved by the insurgents. Food for thought indeed, especially as I trust this source unreservedly…
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2010/04/the-wikileaks-video.html
He also links to all his past stories about that agency’s shenanighans. In case anyone is interested in checking on their past habits. 🙄
The reason it is out now is to boost book sales fro another Reuters reporter.
The book released in November and went nowhere.
It is about this incident and is very anti-military…
War is hell, and when journalists choose to run with armed insurgents they are making a very stupid decision. Too bad they died with the enemy fighters they were hanging with. Great job of restraint and execution by our brave soldiers.
Hanging with the bad guys can mean literally hanging with the bad guys. Good shooting.
@Bees, Missy.
Yes, and yes.
It may seem confusing that I am not jumping up and down screaming every foul-word known in the English language, and several more that are not.
-Honest, I did that.
Then I waited for the “fall-out”, and after getting some additional information that isn’t available to most, I learned what happened before, during, and after.
There was much that went wrong, above and beyond the ROE restrictions.
Some items I can tell you:
-Several officers were relieved of their duty.
-Several new “paths” to get support quickly were established.
-Many, if not all of the fighters have now been eliminated through “other” means.
PATVANN thank you as long as they continue to improve on helping the ones at th front who spilled their blood and need AIR SUPPORT to be answer at the demand minute,,bye 🙄
I think many of the comments here are absolutely disgusting. I guess people who are so easily brainwashed by propaganda can easily lose all sense of morality.
You think the family driving past who see an injured man, then do the Christian act of being the Good Samaritan, knew that they would be murdered from the air merely for helping a dying journalist? I know if I was driving past and saw a man who needed help I would try to help him no matter what. Ask yourselves what you would have done before justifying cold blooded murder.
Get a clue Stefan…. 30mm rounds are not silent, the individuals in the van knew there was a firefight, no one else is on the streets. The more likely scenerio is that the individuals in the van knew full well who they were attempting to rescue and knew full well the risks of doing so.
I’m betting that you’ve never been in combat, so you have no frame of reference. This isn’t a video game boy! This is real life, blood, guts and death. In a war zone, there are no unwitting participants. If you are an innocent, you are staying as far away from the action as you can get. If you get involved, it isn’t because you are a “good samaratin” it is because you ARE involved.
PV are those 30 cal or 30 mm?
If it was an Apache, (I’m sure it was) it is equipped with the under-mounted, helmet-sighted single-barreled 10-rounds/sec 30mm Chain Gun, in which the shells are all fragmentary and supersonic. The bird has a very distinct sound.
It seems to me, that the enemy heard the craft, and that’s why their weapons were being hidden from view. Once the shells started, however, anyone on the ground within 200 yards would know what hell has been unleashed…Which in this case, was the van-driver’s cue to drive into the “kill-box”.
The children in the van were to be sacrificed for the “cause”. They were props to be filmed by the “reporters” once the bait was set, (as witnessed many other times). The fighters were supposed to get away, the children were supposed to die, and the meme was to be re-enforced.
The “reporter” was part of the operation.
PV, is that a rifled weapon, is it manned or indirectly fired and by whom, and what is the rate of fire? I am curious.
Funny how the simplest propaganda stunt can go awry, now that we know the circumstances, the supervisors of the reporters seem to be guilty of the premeditated murder of the two children. I think that is the real issue here.
Thanks Curt for putting up this refutation of the original lie.
I used the links as Jawa to correct some of my liberal friends on Facebook.
Good work.
I wonder if the van had a red crescent daubed on it – would the helicopter have not shot at it when it tried to pick up the wounded journalist?
@Guffa
No, it would not have been targeted. The only caveat to that policy, is if persons are seen using the vehicle in an actively offensive manner, as in a platform for shooting or firing mortars and missiles. (They did that a lot in Iraq, which they learned from the PLO.). The permission-level to open fire is also upped, when this is observed.
This means that even if we see them loading and/or unloading weapons from it, we STILL will not target it, as long as it has the symbol. The Red Crescent is an outstanding group, and when evidence was seen that their symbol was being used this way, they, and just about every Imam in the world, made it loudly known that it was “haraam”. (Forbidden by Gods law.) The instances of this disgusting tactic slowed immensely after that.
@Skooks
The weapon is fired remotely by the pilot of the aircraft. It can be aimed by joystick, or most commonly by an interface within the pilots helmet. (Where he looks is where the bullets go.) It is attached to the bottom of the craft, between the skids. A full load is 1200-1500 rounds fed by a 3 horsepower electric motor. There is no link-belt connecting the rounds, as the ammo is “pushed” within a guide mechanism from inside the craft, to the weapon itself.
The barrel is 1/4-turn rifled, and fires between 600-625 rounds/minute at 2640 fps. It’s effective range is around 1600 yards, max range around 4900 yards. Each shell has a “kill radius” of about 10 ft.
I can’t agree more with your last sentence…The media chooses to paint our guys as the criminals, while completely ignoring the real crime, and the real culprits.
PV, the supervisors are not only responsible for the murder of the children, but the deaths of the reporter and cameramen as well. That is four body bags on someones front porch. It would be nice to know who is sanctioning this type of reporting or even demanding it, some prison time might be a lesson for all of these anti-military reporters who want to film innocent deaths so bad they participate in a set-up to get a story, this is really sick.
PV, do you know what a PV is? In the logging business, it is about a 5 foot long piece of oak with a hinged iron hook on one end about a foot up from the end. With the mechanical advantage it offers, a man can spin or roll a sixty foot log with a minimum of effort. A long time ago, i thought that was a suitable name for you. Just thought I would clue you in. It is actually called a peavey, but everyone says PV. I thought you might like that with your background, i am sure your family used them in the past.
Thanks for the info! That is an awesome weapon!
LOL!
I knew what a peavey (aka: cant-hook) was, but never put it together with your “Nom de Guerre” of my name! Cool! 😆
@Petard #37
Good. Finished up reading about D-Day by Stephen Ambrose about how some of the German fired on and killed US medics who were attending wounded soldiers. Scum. I don’t have much sympathy for reporters getting killed if they are embedded within the military or insurgents as that’s the risk they take. However it’s harder when it’s people trying to help the wounded on either side. Clearly signalling helps but I guess with an insurgency where they don’t have uniforms it’s not so clear cut.
yesterday ,late hour, i picked up a radio station where a woman was questioning a IRAK man saying trough an interpreter he was the brother of one journalist and at one he start to translate some angry attack on the americans that are killing civiliens all the time ecetera,,irealyse right away the propaganda spitting they have no reason to be there and more,insults to AMERICANS, i thought of mentioning it so us civilien get to be awayre on thoses falses reports that even me could detect thoses lies for you also STEVAN bye specialy that thoses offensives news goes around the world .
Too bad this didn’t happen to Hanoi Jane back in the day.
Denying that the Officers in the chopper used exagerated force against the people down there, that they saw the children in the van and still shot, that the van was offering no risk and they still shot, is too much patriotism. Anyway, war is a failure of human race, lack of capability to negotiate. What if your friend was fallen on the sidewalk with a couple of bullets in his body? Would you try to help? Would you leave him there? I can’t believe there is people in this website trying to justify this action and proof that it was perfectly normal. Unbelievable. You make me feel ashamed of americans. Why the US also don’t try to liberate many people in many other nations (that don’t have huge amounts of oil) and are under dictatorships? Such as in Africa, Asia and almos every continent?
@Joseph
I am afraid that you are too ignorant to either converse with, or insult.
@Joseph
It was not obvious at all that there were children in the van. I’ve watched that video numerous times and I couldn’t discern people, let alone children, sitting there. In addition children can pull the trigger of an AK-47 just as easily as an adult. Take a look at who populates the armed rebel groups of africa, children… and they are deadly. You have obviously never spent any time in combat or you would not dismiss the danger that even children can pose to our troops safety. We used to get 12 and 13 year old sappers coming over the wire all the time, and trust me, we didn’t hesitate to fire upon them, no birth certificate required. They would come in drop grenades into gas tanks with the handles held down by rubber bands, giving them enough time to slither on out, if we didn’t kill them first, before the rubber disolved and the ensuing explosions destroyed equipment and took lives. At least in SE Asia the enemy didn’t want to die in some warped quest for martyrdom, thank God for that.
It’s like telling my children”RUN OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD AND SEE IF A CAR HITS YA”. “Then we’ll sue’em”!!!
Why do people act with such stupidity. Good rule of thumb if a country is in war and you see the military coming run and hide!!!!
I DO FEEL SORRY FOR THE PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES.I can’t help that, they where GOD’s children and He loves them, even if they’re on the wrong side.
GOD BLESS