142 Comments
Trackbacks/Pingbacks
- Tweets that mention Climategate’s “Harry Read Me” File is a Must Read! -- Topsy.com - [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by FloppingAces, Consigliere5. Consigliere5 said: "this isn’t just the smoking gun pointing to…
The cooked data they are releasing is just fiction without the raw data and revelation of their methods. They say they do not even know what stations were in the dataset. There is no record existing explaining how they arrived at the current dataset. That makes it so much garbage. It is worthless because it cannot be checked. This is NOT science. A scientist reveals everything and dares you to break it. This is a scam.
It’s not “bunk”. it’s outright fraud. Global Warming has been the “holy ark” argument that radical leftists have been relying on to force everyone to accept their political agenda. With their end goals finally in reach, they and their MSM cronies are not going to let the general public know about the fraud until it is too late. They are now ignoring the fact that the genii is out of the bottle, as the truth has come out) They are also not now considering the aftermath of their propaganda, but are tring to do damage control for as long as they can. When the public understands that they have been scammed, as the scientist “deniers, conservatives, and others have been trying to tell them, there is going to be a lot of pissed off sheep.
The “climate change” Emperor has no clothes. This now known fact will destroy the trust the people have given every green spouting politician and MSM outlet, and the public will know them for the charlatans that they are. Then the people will wonder “What else have they lied to us about?”
Anyone care to bet how the 2010 elections will swing?
I edited and pasted onto Word and I get 290 pages.
I think this Rajendra Packauri character or his twin brother panhandles on an exit ramp of Interstate 10.
@Skookum: Good one! He sure doesn’t look like the kind of guy I would trust to tell me I have to pay twice as much for electricity so he and his friends can spend the money.
The “botch after botch” comment refers to the input files that the code has to deal with because that is just how the input files are. There is nothing necessarily wrong with having files in different formats, but it is annoying to handle the special cases. It is analogous to having to handle incoming dates in 2009-12-01 format or 12/01/09 format, and it does not imply any shortcoming of the program itself.
@ John Binsel
I find it hard to believe that you went through the effort to post some weak-assed, “new-speak” definition for the word “botch”, and at the same time ignore every other quote.
In the word popular with my teenagers: “Really?”
Could you use your secret decoder ring to decipher these for us too?
“
Pffft.
PV, I am in serious need of a decoder ring, do you have a line on them?
Bindel is just following the time honored cherry picking tradition of finding one minor point to nit pick and trying to subliminally conflate that to the whole.
It’s not going to work.
@Skooks
As a matter of fact, they’re having a sale this week only.
Dial: 1-800-L.I.B.-E.R.A.L.
(Thanks for the mail! Response soon)
PV, I laughed so hard my dog climbed in my lap to see what was wrong.
News Flash from Breitbart: Phil Jones is stepping down as head of East Anglia’s CRU pending an investigation into leaked emails that reveal data collection was a continuing fraudulent effort and that there were ulterior motives involved in the Hoax that was perpetrated under East Anglia’s reputation.
The dominoes begin to fall.
The idea of climte modeling is silly on the face of it. The data we observe is not necessarily what the “earth” uses to operate. We don’t know much about how the weather functions, and even less about wht it takes to predict it. Just silly. Modeling is just a bunch of programmers involved in mental masturbation. We humans cannot even conceive of how this planet truly operates, how it formed, how we as a species will end, or how the earth will end. The governments of the world suck, we humans suck, and politicians, a special category of being. totally suck. I still don’t feel better after venting.
I wonder when the obsession with theoretical science will finally emasculate the general populations ability to see the Truth for what it is. The truth is always simple, which must be hard for someone persuing a deploma in the “arts” of scientific theology to accept. I hope it is not to late to recover our sense of sensibility.
The libs will fall back on their favorite line, the story is true even if all the facts can’t be verified. We know global warming is ‘real’ so damn the facts, full speed ahead to spending trillions of dollars and wrecking what’s left of american capitalism.
Can someone please get in touch with the hackers. We need them to hack the server at the Hawaiian DOH before the dump the original Birth Certificate. This is the only way we will get a look at the original.
Does the concept “relative truth” ring any bells. Our beautiful planet has been cyclical since before recorded history began. To move forward as a nation and a species, we cannot trust basic concepts of life to be redefined at hands of self obsorbed, “experts” who salivate at the mention of so called “issues” such as global warming. I remember reading my text books as a child and things of this nature were kept at bay using the termanology thresh-hold of suggestion. Now less than 2 decades later, they have been fabricated into HISTORICAL FACT??? The word CRAZY does have a definition found in our dictionary, and Lies still exist in our time.
My third grade teacher taught us about climate cycles. Her instruction has worked well for me all through this global warming/climate change debate. I have known that it was a fraud from the beginning. Thank you Mrs. McKinney!
That was 54 years ago.
The sky is falling, we are all going to die, my children will not know what a polar bear is. We must return to using candles for lights. No hot water usage or we are all going to die! Whats the matter with you nuts, can’t you see we destroying the earth, our breath alone is killing birds, snails fish etc.
Well, we can all breath a sigh of relief, bur while exhaling we need see the fraud that was occuring. This fraud is still in the government’s mind due to being the agenda of the sitting president. They want this falsehood to be a reality in order to destrou us all. He is till going to push this nonsence to the end. We have to figure a way to derail his upcomming trip. if he signs the treaty, we are all screwed. Can he be brought up on treason charges?
It is about time this is exposed for what it really is.
I think we should wait for Al Gore to weigh in on this. I’m sure we all have the utmost respect for the little weasel and will give his thoughts all the respect they merit. And Obama, that epitome of honesty and transparency will obviously want to face this issue head on in his usual manly fashion and deal with it in a speedy, yet thoughtful manner. Much as he did with the Afghan surge and his birth certificate. Then there’s the little matter of his college transcripts.
As the loonie Left’s core issues fade away, I wonder what they will come up with next. One thing is certain: they will never go away.
This is what to expect of the Left’s politicizing scientific investigations; as a result the ends become justification for the means and impartiality is gone from the process. Thease people would no doubt be willing to prove the Moon is made of green cheese as long as doing so fit their purpose.
Several months back I recall reading an article in Pravda where Russian scientitst were claiming all the global warming hype was just so much crap. The Russians claim Western science is flawed because the data does not extend over a sufficient period to be representative of any true trend, and in fact they think it’s more likely the world is headed for another Ice Age! Interesting isn’t it.
Al Gore was the only person that could save us from this disaster. If we had elected him the world would of been saved instead of destroyed by BUSH! Now we have the greatest President ever, and after he saves our country in the next 8 years, he will become the first World President. Obama has so much swaggart and class, and is the greatest President the US has ever know, and once the rest of the world see how great he will make the US, Obama will unite the world to one country and we will live in peace, harmony and forever be happy.. He will stop those big oil companies and make them pay for what they have done!
God help us all when the facts and the truth can be so redilly ignored and the fate of us all can be as easilly decided by the left, God bless Smith and Wesson, be ready Patriots
@Mikki?
Does your mommy know you’re on her computer, honey?
BURN!
Patvann ownage!
Mikki, what have you been smoking tonight?
Mikki,
By the way, have you seen the video “Not Evil Just Wrong” created by an Irish group focused on the nine major errors in Mr. Gore’s “An Inconvenient Truth”, about which he is reluctant to discuss?
Mr Gore also lives in a Mansion in the Nashville area which is said to consume more electric power on a typical evening than your local shopping mall, not to mention the private jet he uses to fly about the world! I wonder if they can recall a Nobel Prize?
Phillip:
Don’t worry: The president doesn’t have the right to sign the treaty before Cap ‘N Tax is passed by Congress.
Oops! I forgot: He doesn’t have to follow the rules. But don’t worry: Congress will refute it, if he signs without Cap ‘N Tax being passed.
Oops! I forgot: Congress is duty bound to do every single thing the president wants. But don’t worry: the American people will hold Congress to account in 2010.
Oops! I forgot: The American people were dumb enough to elect these people, in spite of all the signs of what kind of change we could expect.
Hmm. I’m worried too.
I always wondered why they would bother to build their carbon tax and trading schemes…
…only to then turn right around and kill off fossil fuels.
Why bother, right?
I think their plan all along was to milk out the age of oil, maximizing their profits. Just like the lyrics from the WHO song, We Won’t Get Fooled Again (damn near did too)…meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss…
In other words, either way, whether they get away with their fraud or not, oil is here to stay for a good time to come.
You can take that tip to the bank!
Even if he signs the treaty it takes 2/3 of the Senate to ratify it. The prospects for Cap and Tax are looking slimmer all the time.
The theme for the Congress elected in 2010 and 2012 needs to be REPEAL, REPEAL, REPEAL!
I guess the old adage applies: “You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.” Thank you dear Lord for common sense. But I know they will keep trying.
Note that they don’t really want to stop carbon emissions; they just want to tax it.
BTW: If they vote to repeal, the president can veto, so they need enough of a majority to override.
I think Mikki is just being sarcastic. It would take a world class fool to actually believe all that. Of course the Obamaton libs are world class fools so who knows.
@Ravgil: Yeah, I had noticed that they talk about reducing carbon emissions yet even the Kyoto signatories never do. They just tax it.
Doesn’t Al Gore still own stock in Occidental Petroleum? So he stands to benefit from the carbon credits scheme AND the increase of fuel costs.
What scares me is if Cap & Trade passes and the planet continues to cool, the libs will say it is due to our carbon reduction efforts. If the earth heats up, they will say we need tighter restrictions. They win either way! This is why we MUST kill this bs global warming HOAX. Tell all your friends about ClimateGate, write your local paper, write the media, write the politicians, e-blast it everywhere!! We have to cut thru years of indoctrination and emotional “nature guilt”. This HOAX is even more damaging to America than ObamaCare. The hacker is a HERO!!!
@Mike’sA
I live here just south of SanFran.
I’ve heard grown coworkers say the same sort of thing, then come to tears when I gently disagree.
Other people have challenged me to fights over him, and still others have actually called the cops because they thought I should be arrested for not being a fan of Obama. (and I now quote)
“Can you explain exactly what he said, because he says he never saw you before.”
“Someone should know the kind of things he’s saying about our president, so I called you”.
“But you said he was scaring you, and you felt threatened…He’s sitting there with his family.”
“Because I want you to make him stop”.
“We can’t do that ma’am. he has a right to say anything he wants to in a park. Have you tried walking away from his table?”
“But I heard him when I was walking by, and no one should hear that stuff in public.”
“Ma’am, I am citing you for making a false report, if you don’t leave the area right now.”
“I WANT YOUR BADGE NUMBER!”
The woman would not relent, things escalated, backup was called, and she was arrested.
I assure your Mike, the “belly of the beast” is not a pretty place. There is no bottom.
Can Rajendra Pachauri at least get a hair cut and a close shave before he tries to con me. Come on man, at least give me that!
Patvann –
That’s scary! At least the cop did the right thing. It would have really been scary if they took you in.
I have been to many tea parties. I cannot tell you how many times I have been called a racist and been flipped off. Some people really think he is the messiah.
If the US had both morals and balls, we would demand Rajadouche’s resignation for incompetence for making that sort of statement.
I’m thinking what we need is a good bumper sticker. Something simple yet poignant.
How about a bumper sticker with a single word…. “Obama” but replace the “O” with a Hammer and Sickle. I think that would say it all!
There will always be a human “worldly” problem, whether its about the forests, polar bears, climate change, etc., brought on by folks who have a severe guilt conscience and feel justified in blaming others for what they do not understand, or are unwilling to admit that THEY are wrong – scientists, politicians, media moguls, corrupt leaders…The fact of the matter is that the only thing that we humans should have learned is that nothing in Nature is static! Everything, from the majestic mountains of the Alps to the mighty Pacific Ocean, are in a state of change.
Spiff
@Spiff
That goes hand-in-hand with the axiom; If you believe in nothing, you will believe anything.
The human spirit longs to have a higher-power accompany it down the path of life. The higher power has many forms and even more names. When a person, or group of persons deny or reject that fact, they seek Truth elsewhere, even unconsciously. Those that know this, and seek power, use that replacement “Proxy-Truth” as a tool to gather the spiritually empty. As the numbers of those people increase, it begins to siphon off those who may be strong in spirit, but trusting in-heart/lacking in logic.
Logic coupled with Truth, is the most powerful force in the universe. The Left eats a way at logic by taking over the schools, and eats away at Truth by minimizing our need for the HigherPower.
All part of the plan. You see the result. Look at the Demographic of the AWG Believers, and how they have reacted to the hacking. We have put a crack into their Proxy-Truth, thus injuring their god…who has now been shown to be weak. Ed Begley’s reaction sums this up perfectly.
@Patvann: What’s the full story of that encounter you had with the woman who wanted you arrested?
I recall when Cindy Sheehan was in her hey day her gang was marching to protest and one of the kooks held a sign proclaiming “Fascism is on the march.” I doubt the fool would understand that it was SHE who was behaving like a fascist trying to shut down the free speech rights of others.
Meanwhile, what’s up with this post? 8,000 hits and counting!
Thank you folks. I was beginning to think that I was the only one on the
planet that felt the AGW claims were a hoax enhanced by media hype.
Re Al Gore: Having him lecture us on so-call global warming is similar to
him addressing an audience of neurosurgeons on the best techniques for
microsurgery on the brain.
I think this post is getting a lot of hits because Glenn Beck’s guest on Monday or Tuesday suggested we look up “Harry Read Me” for more info on the exposed hoax. That’s what brought me here… I am so JAZZED about this story and hope is continues to grow so we don’t destroy our economy and futures based on junk “science”. Finally I feel vindicated for believing what most of us have: that MMGW a fraud. FOX has a poll on its site. 80% say their minds have NOT been changed by ClimateGate, because they ALREADY KNEW IT WAS A HOAX!! We have been closeted too long. We need to speak up without fear. I’m going to find a bumper sticker that says “Man Made Global Warming is a HOAX” and see reaction.
@Mike
There was not much more than that.
Another family along with mine where simply having a good time at Lake Vasona park last summer, and the 4 adults were talking policies. We were not loud, but our bench was only about 10ft from the walking-path. Out of the blue this all started, and it was over in 5 minutes. The best part was the few people who commented to us afterword (in hushed tones).
The cop stuck around and made good conversation after she was packed up and shipped downtown for disruption, filing a false report, and resisting arrest. Never heard of her again.
Ya got a bunch of traffic from these folk:
http://www.bing.com/search?q=%22Climategate%E2%80%99s+%E2%80%9CHarry+Read+Me%E2%80%9D+File+is+a+Must+Read%21%22&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IE8SRC
-Curses! I’ll get you next time, Mr. America! 🙂
Meanwhile, over 11,000 views on this subject, and no real counter-posits!
@ Mods
ES from CA’s comment got me thinking. (No it didn’t hurt.)
We have a half dozen posts on this subject, all talking a concise view on the different angles of this hoax. What if we linked them in a common location on the front page, so that new visitors could read them all, and leave having been re-educated in the truth, plus feeling strong enough in their discovery to make the effort in spreading the word?
The posts all re-enforce each other, and the cause needs re-enforcing due to the non-coverage the MSM is trying to pull off.
@ES from Palm Springs, CA: Welcome. I hope you’ll stick around and read some of the other posts we have on this subject.
Interesting that you are from Palm Springs. It reminds me of when I was at EPA in the 90’s and a request came in for us to fund a group of Dept. of Agriculture bureaucrats to go to a meeting in Palm Springs on the subject of “Methane Emissions of Ruminant Livestock” to determine whether cows farting were contributing to global warming. I found it interesting that the meeting was in Palm Springs instead of somewhere more central to beef production.
Your tax dollars at play.
@Patvann: We could add a “climategate” category to the keywords. But that would mean I would have to remember to click the keyword for each post. And as Curt will tell you, I am notoriously bad at that.
Maybe we can do a post with short abstracts of each of the climategate posts. That might work. You want to do it?
@ Mike.
Sure! I can do dat. I’ll send it to you to massage when I’m done.
Well Well, a nest of right wing nuts. Preaching, pontificating, insulting and generally acting like a bunch of cry babies. Wow! What a big surprise. Just like real life, a lot of hot air from the right.
Where was all the righteous indignation when the last administration lied about WMD to invade the wrong country? Where was your indignation when we had Bin Laden in our sights and Rumsfeld dropped the ball? Where was your outcry when every single terrorist in Gitmo has not been executed? Never mind Obama will take care of it for you.
You are preaching to each other and not helping the overall divisions in the US.
The vast majority of Americans want more controls on pollution whether it counteracts alleged climate change or not. Some of us actually want to leave a habitable planet to our children and grandchildren. I am sincerely sorry you don’t feel the same way.
@Pragmatic: Your comment makes NO SENSE. We’ve heard all this HATE BUSH crapola before. It has NOTHING TO DO with the subject of this post.]
And if you think Co2 is pollution, STOP BREATHING! CO2 is just as essential to life on this planet as oxygen.
You just try growing food without it.
Now, GROW UP!
@Pragmatic:
Moby.
Moby.
Moby.
Condescention…check.
Strawman….check.
Does not address topic….check.
Holier than though attitude….check.
Yep, it’s another leftwing nutjob delivering a common nut root rant.
Hey Pragmatic:
The thread isn’t about Bush
The thread isn’t about WMD
The thread isn’t about Osama
The thread isn’t about Rumsfeld
The thread IS about
Pragmatic:
The thread is about a bunch of lying Left Wing nutjobs who profess to be doing one thing under the guise of grabbing power and money.
The thread is not about a woman being arrested in a park either.
Typical right wing nut cases. Carry On
Pragmatic:
To continue with the thread, it is important to recognize the signs of a hoax; this
is true particularly when politicians begin discussing science.
When politicians, or scientists with an agenda, begin citing a “consensus of scientists”,
your BS detector should kick in. Science has nothing to do with consensus. Consensus
is the business of politics. The greatest scientists in history are great because they broke
with consensus; e.g. the earth is not flat, the universe doesn’t revolve around the earth,
and so on. Real scientists do not skew data or suppress challenges.
@Pragmatic:
And, here comes the typical…..
“So, there!” Little hands on hips, sticks out tongue. Now come the attempts at the…..last word.
Bobby.
I agree with you completely and currently there is a body of evidence that suggest that climate change has been overstated from the beginning. I still have doubts about it not actually taking place from varied reports on ice cap degradation and the loss of glaciers sheets world wide.
I understand that this may be cyclical in the scheme of nature but it has been measured to be occurring at an very accelerated rate. This is information provided by scientific researchers and not spun by politicians.
My question would be: What if it is the human race changing the climate. By the time any type of controls are put into place it may be too late if you are incorrect.
As for my original posting, I was just pointing out how the thread is set up to encourage political dialog, albeit skewed to the right. The subsequent responses just confirmed my initial impression, yours in particular notwithstanding.
Missy, I like your attitude:)
@Pragmatic finally on topic says: “I agree that climate change has been overstated since the start but have questions as to whether the cycle we are currently in is man made or natural. If the natural has it been accelerated by man. all I have read indicates it has been accelerated. “
I’m glad you got that Bush Bile out of your system. There is research to suggest that Bush Bile actually causes global warming and I wouldn’t want you fined by the United Nations.
Obviously you have realized that the “questions” surrounding the issue here is NOT SETTLED. So certainly you might also agree that we should rush into spending $TRILLIONS on a problem that might not exist.
I’m sure you support programs to combat hunger, disease and illiteracy worldwide as I do. What a shame that instead of addressing these REAL problems we would waste so much time addressing a non existent problem.
P.S. Talking about “Obama bashing” while you openly engage in Bush bashing doesn’t lend much credibility to ANYTHING you might have to say.
Pragmatic:
I got a chuckle out of Missy’s comment. It was very graphic.
I think that it is some of both: manmade and natural.
The melting ice is certainly bothersome. I just have a
hard time with doomsday predictions.
The largest issue that I have with the releases from
the Climate Research Center, if they turn out to be true,
is that it casts an extremely dark shadow on science itself.
We are in accord that the hard right and the hard left don’t
leave any room for debate on the issues (of any sort!).
I thought I lost a post and re wrote my thoughts and posted them. Huh. Now my original shows up…Sorry about double posting the same info.
Let me ‘splain, Prag…. I saw a post in the spam filter, saw it was you, then set it free. Then when looking to catch up thru comments, I see you rewrote it. So I deleted one… I guess your second endeavor?… so you didn’t have a dual post.
’tis I in the background, bailing you out, then fixing the dual post. No problem on the double posting. You did the right thing as one of us may not be logged into set the spam filter trapped free…. LOL
Mike,
Perhaps if you read my entire (edited) post you’ll see in my mind I was fully justified in my political rant. Sorry if I offended your sensibilities (although I doubt your reply was about offending your sensibilities but just offending me). That being said, I have to point out I can’t bend my brain around the radical rights point of view no matter how many drugs or alcohol I ingest. I guess fantasy and fairy tale thinking just isn’t my forte.
MataHarley:
Thank You!
@Pragmatic said: “can’t bend my brain around the radical rights point of view no matter how many drugs or alcohol I ingest. I guess fantasy and fairy tale thinking just isn’t my forte. “
AGAIN WITH THE BILE!
Do you really think that’s the way to foster a useful dialogue on one of the most important public policy issues of our lifetime?
Mike,
Since you have decided that my thoughts are not worth your time and posted as much and feel that I can’t contribute in any way to your narrow point of view, why on earth would you respond my posting at all? It seems as if you have an agenda other than discussing climate change. Could it be your right wing training is showing? Honestly I didn’t see any complaints further up the board from you regarding Left wing bashing. There was more than a little Obama and liberal bashing being posted.
Short of an explanation and your reticence to post anything negative about the right I have to assume you are just another right winger who is feeling the pinch of no real power at this point.
Best of luck 2010
Pragmatic –
Is it your Left Wing bias that prevents you from seeing that we would not be discussing climate change at all if it were not for:
1. The manufacture of the issue by the Left as a vehicle with which to seize both power, money and elections.
2. Scientists who were all too willing to sell their integrity in order to help the Left with their agenda.
There was never any doubt in my mind that the whole issue was bogus. Climate has gone through radical changes for 4.5 billion years on this planet and will continue to do so with no help from man. What part of 4.5 billion years of change do you NOT understand? Everything from ice sheets covering the northern half of the country with glaciers a couple of miles thick to those same areas being tropical. There is a lot of climate change between the two extremes and man wasn’t even around then.
Science and history are not political in nature and should not be used to further political agendas.
The above is Pragmatic’s opening salvo….
I’ve gone back and read all the posts and the “insulting and generally acting like a bunch of cry babies” pretty much begins with Pragmatic.
Pragmatic goes on to state
The whole issue behind “climategate” is that what you have read has most likely been manipulated for some reason other than “saving the world from CO2”. With the left so vocal about wealth redistribution… could it be real reason the left seems so willing to swallow this crock of crap.
I for one am grateful that I do not have to own an SUV gas guzzler so that I can navigate a glacier to get to a 7/11
PS.. Pragmatic, attempting to marginalize people as you did in your opening remarks only reinforces the idea that you aren’t debating with a winning arguement.
Harry Read Me!
OH Noes!
This isn’t the Harry Reid, we all know, is it?
Donald Bly.
Did it escape your attention that there are no centrist or left wing posts here? Has it occurred to you there is a reason for that? I mean besides the normal insulting reasons Limbaugh and Beck has you spout? Perhaps they are not up to being shouted down by the right wing nuts acting like tea baggers and town hall meeting rable rousers.
The glaring problem with most of you posting here, isolation. Not listening to the other side at all costs. I can visualize you like a 6 year old plugging his ears and making loud nonsense noise so that you don’t have to hear a word spoken.
I stand by my initial post. This is a nest of right wingers pontificating and doing it for the benefit of each other. No other reason whatsoever.
I will continue to seek out knowledge regarding climate change, real or otherwise. I’m certain in 4 billion years your hot air won’t make a speck of difference in any case.
Since I have been accused of having sent an opening salvo, here’s a parting one for the evening: Even if you wanted to stop The President from signing any agreement, you cannot stop it. Even if he needs Congressional approval, you cannot stop it. You have no real power at this point as the right wing lost many major elections, including the Presidency of the United States.
“Pragmatic stands with right hand in air with middle finger raised!”
@Donald Bly.
I find it entertaining to read that first one of his (and likewise with similar commenter’s) and then read the last one where they quit in a snit.
Frankly, I’ve been waiting around for him to ask a global-warming CO2 question, because in all likelihood, I could have given him a good, sound answer!
Out of every posted comment, he asked exactly one climate-related question:
Answer:
We are not changing the climate, as shown by the data that the CRU covered up. If you would like specifics, please ask specific questions, thank you.
What you see is a person whose Prophet has been destroyed, and is now faced with self-doubt and emptiness. He reacts by lashing out because it is the only “tool” left in the toolbox.
Prag, I have to compliment you with regard to your honesty about Evidence lacking in regard to global warming. That it does seem to contridict your origional statements about this “nest” of narcisistic conservatives, is of a curious note to me. I have lived independantly in what has become the heart of the European Union for a substantial amount of time (2 years) I was born and raised in the great state of ALASKA. I am referenceing two drastically different cultures, one representing what you would call (correct me if I am wrong) “innovative and progressively minded” and the other, I will refer to as what the liberal movement in our country is now calling “Palin Country.” Growing up in Alaska had a profound effect on my world view. The most influencial component being the TENS OF THOUSANDS of JAPANESE, AND EUROPEAN individuals and families that would spend hours and hours reminding my family of how blessed we were to have been born in America, especially in Alaska. The stories and analysis offered by many influencial people from those nations has continued to help shape my perspective on what has and is happening in our great nation. I cannot tell you how many people from the greatest nations in the world other than ours have emotionally demonstrated their desire to have what we have. Living in Europe only proved to confirm the testimonies of so many people. WE CONTINUE TO TAKE OUR FREEDOMS FOR GRANTED, INSTEAD WE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT OUR LIFESTYLE SHOULD AND WILL BE BETTER, NO MATTER WHAT IT COSTS..
And that is a simple truth.
Relax
You know, a guy could fit right in here as long as he’s willing to ignore the facts that don’t fit into the conservative agenda….and it looks like there are quite a few doing just that. Just a thought.
Okay, here is a question regarding the topic:
If, as I have been told by you, humans are not causing climate change and besides the all encompassing answer you are passing off as “truth” that it is just a normal climate cycle, why are the caps and the glaciers melting as fast as they are currently? Why is the tundra softening, why are rivers that froze every winter since human memory now only freezing to a fraction of the depth they once did?
Please don;t use the universal answer of “natural, normal cycle”. I think we all know there is more to it than that.
I think it’s funny that posters with a more liberal political bend, use phrases like “shouting down” and ranting on about “not listening at all costs”. I must beg to differ, go and live in any other counry and have real conversations with anyone who has a grasp of these issues, and you will find that wishful thinking does not translate into reality very often. It is the exception not the rule. That is another reason I love america, our country gives you the freedom to PURSUE your DREAMS, it does not garantee the fruition of them. That is up to YOU and your hard work. Which is why I am a conservative, because I believe you have the right to be an idiot without anyone regulating your waste oxygen.
Mind Jedi,
I read your post and have to make a couple of comments. 1st is that I am an American. I love this country and all it represents. We have the best of the best and the worst of the worst and all things in between. I agree that given the choice, even our most hated enemies would move here. I lived in Central BC for some time next to the great state of Alaska so I know the beauty that that area of the globe represents.
My anger comes from the statements I hear by the rights “entertainers”. They say things like “take back America” and “we hope Barak fails”. I’d like to know, take it back from who? I’d like to know just who fails when our President fails. Is the right so distraught over losing control of the country to actually wish for these things for our country?
In their crystal balls they predict Obama will be the worst President in history, after 11 months in office! Instead of positive concerted effort to raise this country out of an economic catastrophe, they instead look to place blame. They have been asked repeatedly to help mend this country and instead wish for it’s leader(s) to fail.
I started fighting back with rhetoric to do 2 things. One is to point out their own failures as they take such great pleasure pointing out the lefts shortcomings while ignoring their own. The next is to try to get to the bottom of WHY? If you put aside the ideology, we are all Americans.
I just hope as the years go by this country finds something to make it whole again.
Gee, Pragmatic, I thought you left with your index finger raised. Unfortunately for you I am not willing to concede that there is more than “natural and normal” ocurring here.
During the glacial periods where did the water go? It became ice and covered the land.
When the glaciers melted where did the water go? It went back to the sea and the sea levels rose and covered some of the land.
When the ground which was previously covered by glaciers began to thaw what happened? The ground became squishy.
All of this happened without any benefit from man. Why do you believe that it is otherwise now?
When you inhale your body uses oxygen. When you exhale you emit CO2. Plants use CO2 and emit oxygen for us to use. We need each other and we exist on those gases. What is so hard to understand about that being a natural cycle?
What I just wrote is science. It is not Right or Left. It is fact and you and I both know it.
So, tell us, what is the problem with that?
@ Pragmatic
Like the climate, political power is also in a constant state of change. And while we’re on the subject of political power, here’s a civics lesson. For a treaty to be ratified, it requires a 2/3 vote of the Senate. Pay attention in school and you won’t come off like you’re talking outta your…
I’ve seen Presidents come and Presidents go, that’s one of the benefits of being older than dirt. It also gives one a bit of perspective. I can remember the cries of “The coming ice age” in the mid 70’s. You were probably not yet a gleam in your daddy’s eye at that point. Hell, if Jack Kennedy were alive today… he’d be a conservative compared the wack jobs the dems have been electing now days.
Pragmatic, based on your previous posts, I am sure that so long as “otherwise” suits your pre-conceived notions, then “real” won’t make one iota of difference in how you view the datum. I’m also sure that in 4 billion years the “cap and tax” bill before congress will not have made on damn bit of difference in our climate either.
I’m proud to be a “tea bagger”, tired of government excess and manipulation. And contrary to the way things might work in your world, I do not “spout” for others. I am capable of reason, research and response.
As far as you parting hand gesture, thanks, but I didn’t need the raised single digit, I already had a good idea of your IQ
Pragmatic,
I’ve read your initial postby and all the following replys, but have yet to see where anyone has gone to the root cause of the problem, which is Money! That’s always the motivation for those promoting one objective over all others.
Now I trust you are a firm believer in man-made climate change, personally I’m not, but that’s irrelivant; neither one of us is likely to become ritch over the subject, but Al Gore and others are, including a number of those scientists who are too willing to look the other way and jump on the money bandwagon of grants and projects too numerous to mention. If you have any doubts about that I’d suggest you investigate the Billions that are being doled-out weekly by the DOE and other government agencies for Clean Energy projects.
Fact is our world has a much greater tollerance for temperature change than does our speecies; considering the available temperature range in the universe from absolute zero to thousands of degrees at the surface of our sun and other stars, the small temperature variations experienced by Earth over time is amazingly minimal. The tendancy of individuals to percieve climate change within a lifetime is totally without scientific merrit, any meaningful sample of would require several lifetimes to acquire to be representative of any trend.
So it boils down to a discussion of profit, who makes it and who is left holding the bag! In any case you, me and everyone else on this site are more likely to get stuck with the bill than to profit by the actions of unscrupulious “Experts”. In that regard we’re all on the same side of the argument.
Prag, Being an American doesnt MAKE what we believe consistant with our Beautiful, if not messy history. As you have rightly stated, “the good and the bad and everything in between.” I too am an American, not just an american, but an ALASKAN. What makes my belief system of value to my nation is because–Specifically, I hold true the fundimental (and simple) truths that OUR forefathers established ON ONE SINGLE PAGE. I know that you are familiar with the DECLARATION of independance and the bill of RIGHTS that accompanies said article. It is those articles of liberty that not only make you and I an american, not only a citizen of the united states of america, but also (in my case) an ALASKAN. That is a right that is to be enforced by the FEDERAL mandates of our government (right or left) and is not UNIVERSAL. I do believe that there are politicians on both sides of the isle that are in their right minds. And like you, I cannot stand the political mind game that MSM tries to play with the masses. The duty of our public servants is to PROTECT what WAS established, not to change it based on current trends or World events. UNLESS WE THE PEOPLE have a vested interest in declaring it neccessary.
OUR CIVIL duty is not to agree with Mr. Obama, but to REMIND HIM and EVERY OTHER LEADER, of their SWORN DUTY….to UPHOLD our constitution and all that IT (at the hands of those who wrote and declared it with their very lives) was created to enforce. I do not believe that Mr. Obama really believes in the “simple” truths that shape our liberty. I do believe that he has based his political agendas on Sentiment and good intentions, but without tangible results to those ends, we might as well elect a Cooper Anderson who “really wants good things to happen for everyone” (see excerpt from bruce almighty). I will say again, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOUR LIFE IS GURANTEED TO BE FREE AND CLEAR OF DANGER, but I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT YOU BELIEVE, are in YOUR BEST INTEREST, EVEN IF THOSE DECISIONS (your RIGHT to choose) LANDS YOU IN A WORSE POSITION THAN YOU STARTED OUT IN. (see excerpts from the Bernie maydolf scandle)
Climate change. I am sure you are familiar with the findings in the northernmost parts of both of our countries of Mammoths being found with whole tropical berries, undigested in their stomachs. FROZEN SOLID. I am certain that didn’t happen slowly. Our Climate is changing, but only because IT IS a natural phenomenon (currently unexplainable to many people, unless they believe in creationism) The alaskan tundra is NOT softening contrary to popular opinion, it would be great if it would, (trust me, the retreat of perma frost would save the state budget some 100’s of thousands of dollars) and the Polar bears are NOT endangered. Just go to Barrow for a few weeks in December, you will understand quickly why people don’t go out by the ice/water when it’s dark out. And why there are signs up and down the entire coast of the small city that scream out DANGER POLAR BEAR WARNING. it’s because there are more now than ever before…. That is in an area that has been shared with humans for the past hundered years.
When my president, unopologetically alignes himself with the likes of self declared “socialists and communists”. And he adopts philisophical policies that are endorsed by people who have been found to have based their statements of UNBIASED SCIENTIFIC FINDINGS In regard to our economic policies on what has been found to be absolute fabrication of ANY DAGREE (see a geometric text on angles or grids) do not challenge his personal right and privalege to do so, I do however see that as grounds for empeachment based on the simple truth; that is our INDEPENDANDCE DAY, which was established a couple of hundred years before you and I were born. Mr. Obama does not have the RIGHT to use his current position to create a “new system of government.” Remember, “You can judge a tree by the fruit that it bears, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear bad fruit.” “let your YES be YES and your NO be NO.” That goes for Dems and RePs alike.
Again, the answers are always much simpler in their true form.
@Pragmatic: So it bothers you when we say “take back America” and “we hope Barak fails”.
Tough!
Too bad!
Cry me a river!
I bet it didn’t bother you one bit when the left was doing that and WORSE to Bush for EIGHT YEARS!
You came in here with such an arrogant attitude and seem more interested in starting a food fight than engaging in an honest discussion.
I’ve given you the benefit of the doubt THREE TIMES now and you don’t seem to be able to drop the bile.
And yet you complain about that in other people? Isn’t there a word that describes that?
Now, could you PLEASE stick to the topic and check your anti-conservative bile at the door?
Hey Mike
[OBSCENITIES DELETED BY POST MODERATOR]
@Sean: I believe you just proved who needs the anger management here.
Once again I request that you stick to the topic here.
If you are unable to do that without tossing in a bunch of hateful or obscene crap then your comments will be edited or deleted altogether.
That was my last warning.
Mind Jedi,
Thank you for taking the time to explain your views on the politics you feel are involved in the research and how it affects the upcoming treaty meeting. Even though we disagree on the finer points of governing this great country you seem willing to discuss your views and not go out of your way to degrade my views. Thank You for the consideration.
Rabid politics sometimes degrades to insults and name calling. Winning an argument at all cost is something some people are ready, willing and able to do. I’m not one of them.
I sincerely hope that climate change is just a miscalculation or at worse a man made crisis. I am not a stupid person, just one that wants to question all sides and try to come to educated conclusions.
Thanks again for your time and insight.
Mike,
You are a true american, small case LOL
Thanks for the EDIT:)
Mike Mike Mile,
The WHOLE post was profanity? LOL
That’s 7 more years of pure torture for you my friend. I can call you my friend can’t I?
Wow, talk about thin skinned… oh well I’ll try to tone it down.
Okay, I have read all the posts and looks like I am the only one to be censored. Now I understand the profanity being edited but the whole post? C’mon. New flopping aces Patriot act?
Anyway, Thanks for the info to all who actually gave some up. I do appreciate it.
@ Prag
*sigh* (I don’t know why I do this….)
First things first.
The very first thing you did was come into our sandbox and lay a turd. WTF did you expect from that?
The last thing you did was flip us the bird!
Now you act PRAGMATIC with you question (2 points for having a real question) but still feel the need to couch it in ad-hominem rhetoric.
How about YOU relax, realize and accept that you are not among those who think as you do, and open your mind to the possibility that we might be nicer if not initially shat upon. I seem to be able to go onto lefty sites without first making enemies, and I find that there is always someone willing to keep an open mind. You will find that here as well, but I will also clearly state that some may continue to bash the hell out of you. Apologies and a thick skin go along way, but starting out with the question (framed in a mature manner) is usually a good beginning no matter the alien audience.
Yet even your question concludes with an immediate dismissal, so it it really a question?
No. It is a the repeating of a sub-conscience statement you want very much to remain true, but the shock and realization that it might not be, slightly scares you because you yourself know that you do not have enough evidence to make a good case for your own position (other than what you’ve been told to think). I can fully understand this, and mean no disparagement is saying it. The media, the schools, the governments, and big-business have been working this into our collective psyche for over 20 years, an unless you have spent an inordinate amount of time doing your own research, I can’t blame you or anyone for defending AGW.
Having ones paradigm flipped over isn’t easy to come to grips with, no matter who it’s happening to, thus the establishment of a “pre-defense” mechanism built into your question.
We’ve all done it at some point, those who haven’t probably will at some point.
You just happened across a guy who eat this stuff up, and has been for those same 20 years. I know my chemistry, and my facts. I’ve learned enough to know that none of what we’ve been told has anything to do with warming, let alone CO2. But let’s take your questions at face value, and maybe a new path is laid open for you.
Because they must, and have been for over 10,000 years. We are about halfway through an inter-glacial period. During the Medieval Warm Period (1000ad) which lasted about 200 years, it was about as warm as we see today, maybe a little warmer. The glaciers were much more melted than we see today. That warm period is also why we see increases in our CO2 concentrations, but that’s for a different discussion. Hundreds of years later, (late 1700’s) we got relatively cold again, and glacier-growth made-up a lot of it’s loss mass. Since that time, we’ve become warm again, and here we are. We have never exceeded “normal” and that fact can be verified by the data that CRU has held back, and by the words of their own scientist’s when they thought they would never be exposed. I have many quotes, by many of them, and I have their data. NOAA and the UN both quietly “corrected” the statement that the 90’s were the “hottest”, and we have known since 2003 that the 30’s were. (In the modern era.) It’s just that if they told the major media, they would look silly, and set the “Plan” back again.
It also depends on the glacier, and where it is, (and if it’s being reported on). Notice that the ones you hear about are in the northern hemisphere. Many in the south are still growing, including the largest ones in S.America and Antarctica. That place is freakin huge, but ask yourself why they ONLY seem to talk about the Western Shelf? The rest of the continent is gaining ice-mass at a rate never before seen, and has been for 8 years. A combination of more mass pushing the back of the floating glacier, and multi-year cyclical warm water passing under it, has made it break off. Larger breaks were recorded in the 40’s. This (relatively) warmer water comes to the fore about every 20 years. That water temp returned to cold least year.
If you like, I can direct you to the sea-ice site run by NASA, that let’s you watch the ice-amount day-by-day in the north pole and pole regions. You will see that the past couple of years, the ice is making a dramatic comeback in the north. This was predicted by the solar scientists. The ocean’s (surface-temps) have also dropped temps in that same time-period. The planet has stopped warming for the past 8 years, and is now been dropping for the past 2. AS PREDICTED. The fact that the sunspot activity is mirroring the period just before 1760 scares the hell out of many solar scientists because it got cold, and stayed cold for 50 years.
Those guys whose e-mails were snatched, did NOT predict this, nor were any of their 4 different computer models able to correctly “predict” temps when they have been tested against the past 50 years of actual raw data! They disparaged the solar scientist’s and actively squashed publication-papers of several of them.
That’s enough for now. I’ll talk about what CO2 can and can’t do later if you are still around.
Please enjoy your stay, and don’t put your fingers in the cages.
They are hungry, and they WILL bite.
@Pragmatic: You just can’t help yourself can you?
Well OK, but by now you’ve made it abundantly clear that you don’t have anything substantive to say about the content of this post which is an examination of the poor quality of the science underpinning global warming.
Gotta love Alaska… after all, I was born there, it must be a great place.
@Pragmatic
I will try to address issues that you brought up in two different posts.
To answer the above I suggest that one possibility is Snowball effect in conjunction with solar activity. Snowball effect is a figurative term for a process that starts from an initial state of small significance and builds upon itself. This can work in two ways. Global cooling when the surface of the earth is covered by greater and greater amounts of ice and snow until reflective properties reach a point where cooling continues regardless of geological activity that might otherwise reverse the process. It takes some external event to reverse the situation.
In the case of global warming, we first must remember that the earth has been warming since the end of the last ice age, there have been numerous ice ages, and there is less and less ice and snow to reflect energy back into space. Once enough of the reflective surface has dissipated the process continues until some other event reverses the course. IE: Asteroid or Comet strike that basically puts the world into the equivalent of a “nuclear winter”
And the cycles repeat….
Now for your other issue(s):
Barak Obama stated before the election that “We are 5 days away from FUNDAMENTALLY changing America”. Since that statement he has advocated for policies that will essentially take the US further and further down the socialist path and quite possibly bankrupt the nation through reckless fiscal policy while ignoring the number one item to which he should be focused. The creation of JOBS by losing the regulations and taxation that government imposes which stifles job growth. I hope that the current agenda of National Health Care Reform or National Health Insurance Reform or whatever they are calling it this week does fail. I hope that the Cap and Tax bill fails. I want any policy that moves us closer to socialism to fail. If Barak Obama’s agenda is to fundamentally change America into a marxist society I want him to fail.
Yes we have an economic crisis but it was not caused by GW Bush… there’s another article on this site that details the timeline of Jimmy Carter’s Community Reinvestment Act and how Government interference in private markets has caused the problems we are currently facing.
I want all Americans to return to their roots and remember what made this country great… and it wasn’t Government it was the people.
What a pity! Did we just see a dogmatic liberal self-destruct?
I don’t have any sympathy. I really don’t. I tried to reason with him but reason wasn’t what he wanted, was it?
The last time I joined a liberal blog site I was called names and the next day my userid and password wouldn’t work anymore.
Mike, you have shown far more patience with Pragmatic than they showed me and I didn’t even extend my middle finger.
I called the “Democratic” Party the Democrat Party – that was it.
BTW, Pragmatic, only until 11/10 will your beloved Democrats rule and only until 11/12 will this President rule and he may be forced out sooner. How do ya like them apples?
My last post went poof! and self=destruct? HUH? Takes more than a couple of nasty remarks. Sorry to disappoint you.
Just wanted to let you know, I wanted to share my good fortune so I posted a link to your site. hope you don’t mind.
Desolation, could be because you’ve hit a a level beyond your Craigslist reading comprehension….
Fascinating commentary. ummmm May take me a nanosecond or two to digest such deep thoughts. LOL
UPDATE: where did his comment go??? Well, guess it’s a moot point, eh?
So Prag, was Craigslist buds one of your shared links? “Desolate” evidently masqueraded as spam quite well as he ended up in the garbage bin quite quickly. Then again, it’s an apt cyber handle considering his comment. All that vast wasteland between the ears….
Mike, while I can post.
Isn’t the objective of this site to get out the information posted? If you look over the postings you’ll see I was engaged with the moderates who did not disparage me. So Mission accomplished!
I do have a better understanding of the rights take on climate change and how they feel about the upcoming summit. Once again, Mission Accomplished!
I’d also like to mention that you haven’t made a convert and no matter how many times I’m wrongly accused of leaving, you are wrong. Still here. Jumping to conclusions is an internet constant.
C Ya
@Pragmatic: Once again a total lack of anything substantive.
You’ve had one or two interesting comments to make and the remaining 90% is crap.
You claim to have an understanding of the “rights [SIC]take” on this issue yet I haven’t seen you demonstrate that you even comprehend what this post is all about.
For the last time, do you have anything to say about this scandal in particular or climate change in general or are you simply looking to start a food fight?
Pat and Don
Thank you both for the detailed explinations of both your politcal postions and scientific postions. I appreciate it more than you know. Thank you also for pointing out the pitfalls one may encounter while I’m behind the DMZ.
As Mike has pointed out several times, sometime I just can’t help myself when it comes to my political leanings. Believe it or not I am open minded and that is why I am still reading and posting.
That being said, I want you to know my original post(s) were posted out of a pure ignorance of this site mission. Let it be said that if the insults come out of my mouth again, I will be fully aware of my surroundings. Not that that would stop me but would be more,,,,meaningful, yes that’s the word:) Until that time I will temper my words and comments.
I need to get up tom work so now I have to head to bed but will re=read your comments and post my thoughts tomorrow.
Once again. Thanks to those who stepped up and sent out information and answerd my questions!
He probably had to ask someone else for those two good points, Mike. Now that he’s out of borrowed ammo it has to go back to spewing hatred.
Sounds like it’s calling for backup after getting it’s butt kicked.
Mike,
Do you have to chime in and comment on every single post I make? Now you’re a spelling Nazi too? What exactly is your objective Mike? I mean if you can Kick/ban me, have at it, otherwise why don’t you keep your trap shut and “moderate” instead editorializing every single post I make?
You have mentioned I can’t help myself. How about you put yourself in check.
If you can’t take the explanations for my original postings as the truth, too Bad, so sad, get over it and cry me a river…. sound familiar?
Petty, petty, petty.
was that spelled correctly?
good nite
I think you’ve gotten under it’s skin, Mike.
Prag, I can spell a few words that describe you quite well. Hypocrite and projection.
As for your postings, they have been thoroughly debunked. YOU can’t handle the truth.
@Pragmatic: I’m not just moderating this post, but I am also a participant in the discussion. I also have a background in the global warming issue that goes back to the 1990’s when I worked for the Environmental Protection Agency in Washington.
So, if you ever do decide to come up with something substantive to add I’ll be all ears.
Hardly Right
Ha. I see that hardly right is only a little follower. No original thoughts there. Nope. It’s a wonder it can even start a computer let alone type! Amazing!
Hardly, what exactly are your thoughts on the politics of the upcoming summit and treaty? Just wondering as I need a little more information before I come to any solid conclusions.
ROFL
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/rnr/1492531691.html
Embarrassing
@Curt: That pretty much tells you that our little Minnesota friend is NOT a serious, mature individual interested in an honest discussion of this important issue. It’s a game to him.
What an ass!
Are there ANY mature, serious minded liberals out there?
Is it Prog or the kid ya just deleted a few posts back.
(edit/added)
Oh I’m a little slow on the uptake…Prog posted on CL, the flushd one was his respondant.
And here I was being nice.
*looks for ClueBat of Doom*
He was just a troll? There’s a shock.
What’s funny is that he actually thought he was winning or causing trouble. Talk about denial.
Maybe we need to install a gizmo that requires proof of age before commenting. We don’t get too many of these kids who are either still in college or fresh out of it and still under the spell of their professors and I’m not in the mood to educate them for free.
Figured Desolate – aka the vast wasteland between the ears… or perhaps considering the subject at hand might be better described as a seriously low wattage incandescent – was a product of Prag’s hinted at joke. Quick find, Curt. heh…
But apparently there isn’t a boatload of politically minded folks hanging out on MN CL this eve. Or, much to Prag’s chagrin, he may find himself on the politically endangered species list in his state.
Mike, we could filter them out with an IQ test based on common sense.
Either that or ask them questions such as:
Che Guevara was…
a.) A warrior for the downtrodden
b.) A brave leader
c.) A murderous coward
d.) A doctor
e.) A, B, and D
They’ll never pick the right answer. 😉
Great-grandson was here yesterday, phew! way more active than usual! I think it was because his dad let him have pop with his happy meal. Perusing this thread makes me think someone else may have had pop with his happy meal.
Minneapolis? hmmm, could it be….CRAP’s baby brother?
Not to worry, found a fabulous little movie to entertain the tyke during his stay:
http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=11976
@Pragmatic:
Goodness, with this little tantrum you’ve exposed another nutjob trait:
Age without the benefit of maturity….check.
bly OFF TOPIC
Jstol OFF TOPIC
Patvann OFF TOPIC
Mike OFF TOPIC
Mataharley OFF TOPIC
Hardly Right OFF TOPIC
Curt OFF TOPIC
Hardly Right OFF TOPIC
Hope you don’t mind I sent a few visitors your way to discuss Climate Change and the upcoming summit and treaty. You know, the topic we are ALL discussing. If you would please limit your discussion to the topic we may all learn from your insights!~
Hardly Right the answer, as an American would be (d), idiot.(sarcasm in reply to you’re sarcasm, this is an edit as I’m certain you’re too thick to get it)
Gotta get to work. Have a great day! Especially the mentally challenged Hardly Right. Hope you don’t miss the little yellow school bus!!
“Sean stands and gives a salute to his new friends”
C Yas this evening!
@Pragmatic:
Pragmatic OFF TOPIC
If you would please limit your discussion to the topic we may all learn from your insights!~
Mike, Mata.
Bear with me, this is the first time that I have ever participated in an on-line
discussion and it is fun.
The one thing that Pragmatic did was elicit some very good information
about so-called AGW. Patvann’s post in response to the polar ice question
was excellent.
I didn’t see any real discussion by Pragmatic on the topic — mostly anger.
It seems that Pragmatic’s objective was to start a fight. Pragmatic’s first
post started by calling everyone a “right-wing nut job”. Not a good way to
enhance a discussion about the cooked data out of East Anglia. Perhaps
this comes from trying to defend the indefensible — I don’t know.
The entire set of post’s is very interesting to me because I have believed for
years that the trends and predictions on AGW came from bad data. I could
never confirm this because the only information to be found in newsweeklies,
daily papers, and TV news was writeups about worse and worse doomsday
scenarios.
I stumbled onto this site because I was looking for more information about Climategate.
After reading those e-mails from East Anglia, I realized why one couldn’t find contrary
information to the so-called scientific consensus on manmade global warming.
I believe that Robert Peterson’s post nailed a major driver of AGW — money.
To me, another one is that the whole brouhaha is a power grab, an insatiable
desire for control.
As a minor sop to those trying to defend the current nonsense about projected
man-made catastrophes, over the millenia the globe will warm. The Second Law
of Thermodynamics demands it. By the time that happens, we will have populated
other planets or built geodomes to live in.
Anyway, thanks folks, I like this site.
Welcome Bobby. May we learn from each other.
@Missy: Good video find there! Here’s the embed:
@Bobby: Thanks for dropping in. I presume you are not here due to Pragmatic’s link. I hope you’ll stick around and look at some of the other stuff we have been doing on the topic of climategate or climaquiddick. Patvann put together a compilation of our recent efforts here:
http://www.floppingaces.net/2009/12/02/flopping-aces-own-climategate-read-me-file/
As I mentioned above, I first became aware of this issue, and how politicized it was to become, when I worked at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in the 1990’s. It was pretty clear then that the “science” was being driven by a political agenda.
And as for your inkling that the numbers didn’t add up, that’s been a standard part of this story, though not in so dramatic a fashion as the last weeks. Remember that James Hansen who keeps the temperature record for NASA claimed that October 2008 was the hottest October on record until someone pointed out that he had used the temperature record for SEPTEMBER in making his calculations.
I doubt most people understand that there really is no such thing as a “global” temperature. So when the scientists talk about the global temperature going up they are talking about a collection of temperatures from very different places and collected in a variety of ways not all of which are as accurate and reliable as you might expect. Then, they take all this data and run it through computer programs to try and “correct” for any errors. The entire process is fraught with untested assumptions and opportunities for more error.
Now we learn that the original temperature records upon which the warmer’s theory rests have been destroyed and all we have left is the data that is the product of these many flawed assumptions.
The scientific bottom line for all this is that if the temperatures were increasing as the Warmers computer models suggest we would see this reflected in actual observations. We spent a lot of money upgrading the technology to observe temperatures at the Warmers insistence and that investment has finally paid off by undermining the Warmers hypothesis.
The Warmers did their cause, and that’s what it is, a cause and not science, by engaging in scare rhetoric about hurricanes, melting ice, sea levels, polar bears etc. Since they started doing that years ago people started paying more attention to what the Warmers insisted were signs of global warming and found instead that the opposite was actually occurring.
I live in SC a few hundred yards from the edge of the waters of the Atlantic Ocean. I pay quite a bit of attention to hurricanes. Al Gore warned that more and bigger mega storms like Katrina were on the way and the opposite happened. NO hurricanes hit the U.S. this year and last year was nearly as quiet. 2006 wasn’t so bad either. It turns out that 2005, the year Katrina and Rita did so much damage, was the exception, not the rule.
Anyway, sorry to ramble on here. There’s so much more I could say on this subject, like CO2 is NOT the problem, but we’ve covered that elsewhere along with so much more.
I removed the link from CL. Moderator, please feel free to remove any offensive (or deemed) posts of mine.
After some thought, I honestly believe what you’re doing here will change some minds. Although I feel the jury is still out on the overall concept of climate change, I can see you are all doing your part to ensure that a fair conclusion is demanded.
As for my insulting remarks, I guess I’d have to say I apologize for being so obnoxious.
Good luck to all of you.
Sincerely, Sean
@Pragmatic: It’s fine with me if you leave a link up on Craig’s List. We’re coming up on 10,000 hits on this post. The more the merrier.
Thank you for your apology. My repeated attempts above to get you back on track were based on my belief that you did have some common sense underneath all that angry anti-right ranting.
There’s no reason for you to go away Sean. Instead, let me invite you to peruse the many offerings we have on the climategate subject:
http://www.floppingaces.net/2009/12/02/flopping-aces-own-climategate-read-me-file/
We also have a wider category of global warming posts:
http://www.floppingaces.net/category/global-warming/
You might be interested in my discussion of the failure of the climate models to accurately predict what we now have observed is the LACK of any warming:
http://www.floppingaces.net/2009/11/28/hacked-emails-are-the-smoking-gun-in-revealing-the-fraud-of-manmade-global-warming/
The following chart says it all:
Obviously, the Warmer’s computer models aren’t quite as good as the scientists who designed them said they are and provide no basis for the certainty necessary to radically alter our way of life with dramatic cuts in the energy that you and I need on a daily basis (but if anyone wants to propose massive cuts in jetsetting Hollywood celebrities and eco-warriors like Al Gore I’m all for it).
And if you cut through all the fog you’ll find that CO2 is NOT the problem:
There is plenty more research that needs to be done on climate change and I am all for expanding budgets to fund objective scientific study. But it’s premature and wrong to insist that we should remake our world at tremendous cost and sacrifice for a problem that might not exist when there are so many real problems like hunger, illiteracy and disease that we can do something about.
With the limited resources we have wouldn’t it be better to get a better understanding of climate change and invest our money in addressing what really are manmade problems like hunger and illiteracy?
Stick around. Maybe you’ll come around.
Nice job Sean.
Nice job, and it’s not eco-warrior, it’s ego-warrior!
Spiff
This is great!
Patvann:
Thank you for the welcome. Ramble as much as you want. It is instructive to me.
Thanks for the link to more information — I will connect and read it.
Mike:
I didn’t have another link to this one, I stumbled onto the site looking for information
on Climategate. Good information here. Gracious acceptance of Sean’s mea culpa.
Sean (Pragmatic) really stimulated some good interaction barring the tit-for-tat,
you-kill-my-dog-I’ll-kill-your-cat exchanges. Doesn’t matter — in my youth, my
first reaction was to hit back until I got the crap beat out of me four or five times.
To me, Sean does have a lot of common sense and it shows. I liked his “being in
the DMZ analogy”. It lonely being a voice crying in the wilderness.
Anyway, to move on, there are a number of questions that I have never seen
addressed; CO2 seems to be the bellwether issue for AGW:
* CO2 is heavier than the air in the troposphere. How does it get up in the
atmosphere to become a greenhouse gas?
* What percentage of CO2 is natural versus man-made?
In media reports to we unwashed hicks, there are numerous references to
the “tonnage” of CO2 that we pump into the atmosphere. The man-made CO2
numbers are published without reference to total C02 amounts. This makes
no sense.
* The air that we breathe has a given level of CO2 which is very small. Has
this level changed?
* jstol3 pointed out that CO2 is used in photosynthesis and benefits the entire
ecosystem. Besides standard plant and tree growth, he oceans absorb the
majority of CO2. It seems that the planet earth takes care of itself. See
George Carlin link below.
To some of you folks, these will be naive questions but they puzzle me.
Missy is intriguing and humorous! She gave a great video link. Let me try one.
@Bobby. I’ll answer all f your questions, as soon as I come back from dropping Daughter-2 off at the school for play. 30min.
OkeeDoke, I’m back.
Allow me to answer your questions.
You’re right in that most of it stays down here. (At about 5 ft). It gains elevation by convection-currents riding the warmer air, and by winds. The “greenhouse” effect happens at all elevations. The part of it that manages to get very high up, (above where water-vapor hangs out because of the low pressure) can act like a real thin blanket, but it is almost immeasurable.
CO2 is .038% of 5 quadrillions tons of atmosphere. (5 w/15 zeroes following). Our part is around 3% of that .038. If we added 1 billion tons of CO2 (that’s less than we do now) per year, (and the earth stopped adding it’s share) it would take us 25,000 years to get to .400%.
I could not agree more with you. You can see by the above numbers why they don’t. A gnats fart in a hurricane comes to mind…
Not enough to affect non-plant life. The most we’ve seen in the pre-historic record is around 2200ppm (vs. 380ppm now.) So in percentage-speak, that’s .22%. Animal life starts being negatively affected at around 2%. Plant-life, of course loves the stuff. Air-borne fertilizer. Plant-growth records show good crop-increases since the 1900’s because of this.
That historical record of approx. 2200ppm is based on ice-core estimations done by conjecture. Some scientists think that these samples are “polluted” because ice changes properties under the high pressure it’s at under the thousands of feet of ice. They think that CO2 never got above 1000ppm.
We have gone from 300 to the present levels in around 100 years, and that rate-of-increase is what they use to scare us. Because we can’t show that this has never happened before, (no modern method can, even if it did happen) is another way they try to scare us.
Rising CO2 concentration amount’s FOLLOW temperature increases by anywhere from 1100 to 500 years. The reason we see the elevated amounts now, is because of what’s termed the Medieval Warm Period that occurred around the year 1000AD, and lasted a couple of hundred years. Al Gore got busted BAD for showing the inverse of this phenomenon in his movie/presentation, and now that part of his movie has been removed.
I just saw a humous comnment on a YouTube video where Al Gore couldn’t answer questions. The comment called him Al Whore.
Ouch!
Keeping in mind the money he stands to make promoting the global warming fraud, the moniker is a good fit many might think.
@Glen.
I would give my left nut to be able to debate him for 4 hours with no interruption, and on live TV.
I’ve actually dreamed of it…
Patvann:
Re my queries about CO2:
Wow! What can’t we get this sort of information published up against the
doomsday prophets? As a matter of interest, I have sent those questions
to several newspapers in response to some of the global warming articles.
The questions were never published in the letters-to-the-editors nor responded
to in my follow-up private emails to the authors.
Folks, it seems to me that this whole AGW thing is a money-oriented and
power-grab hoax; Al Gore’s income has gone from two million dollars to
$200,000,000 since his very flawed “An Inconvenient Truth”. I would give
my right one to watch your interview with Mr. Gore. (but with one caveat —
Salma Hayak would have to do the surgery).
There is a lot of fine information on this site. Someone, somewhere should
be willing to put it up against the one-way presentations published frequently
in the media. Even better, this information should be presented at the conference
in Copenhagen. Who to do it? Perhaps, that senator from Oklahoma who, like
Pragmatic, has been a voice crying in the willderness of congress.
@Patvann: Thanks for tackling those questions. I learned something too!
I’ve just been reading the congressional testimony of John Christy, Alabama’s State Climatologist and Distinguished Professor of Atmospheric Science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville.
Christy works with Roy Spencer at U of A Hunstville. Spencer was a top dog in global temperatures at NASA:
http://www.drroyspencer.com/
Christy’s testimony from Feb. 2009:
And a good presentation here on the lack of any greenhouse signature which the Warmers had predicted would be the result of increasing CO2 levels:
And of course let’s not forget the incredible body of work by Lord Monckton in the U.K:
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/monckton/
Hi all,
Thanks for the tolerance:) The following actually supports your position.
I did a search to see if I missed Zorita being discussed. If he has already been talked about please disregard the following information.
Otherwise my question would be, why would a co-author risk his own a$$ if he felt they thought it could be explained away?
I have downloaded and read some of the Copenhagen IPCC’s report, and have come to no real conclusions at this point with its authenticity in question. I do however find the following very insightful, Has this been discussed?
One of his IPCC co-authors Eduardo Zorita has demanded that Mann should be banned from contributing to future reports because his scientific assessments are “not credible any more.” Zorita also calls for the barring of CRU’s director Phil Jones and another IPCC lead author, Stefan Rahmstorf.
Zorita, who works in the paleoclimate department of the Institute of Coastal Research, has issued a statement on his website in which he complains that the “scientific debate has been in many instances hijacked to advance other agendas.”
“These words do not mean that I think anthropogenic climate change is a hoax. On the contrary, it is a question which we have to be very well aware of. But I am also aware that in this thick atmosphere -and I am not speaking of greenhouse gases now- editors, reviewers and authors of alternative studies, analysis, interpretations, even based on the same data we have at our disposal, have been bullied and subtly blackmailed. In this atmosphere, Ph D students are often tempted to tweak their data so as to fit the ‘politically correct picture’. Some, or many issues, about climate change are still not well known. Policy makers should be aware of the attempts to hide these uncertainties under a unified picture. I had the ‘pleasure’ to experience all this in my area of research.”
Zorita was one of the contributing authors to the IPCC’s Fourth Assessment Report. He’s unlikely to be asked to contribute to the Fifth. Indeed, as he ruefully acknowledges, this brave admission could well be the death of his career:
Source: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100018173/climategate-sack-no-longer-credible-michael-mann-from-ipcc-urges-climatologist/
More about Zorita: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/27/zorita-calls-for-barring-phil-jones-michael-mann-and-stefan-rahmstorf-from-further-ipcc-participation/
Mike
The ONLY reason the UN’s claims the climate is so “sensitive” to CO2 is that every model used for future temp-increases, assumes that there is 2 times what there already is. That is why you will see the term “2xforcing” or something similar in all that they release about temp projections. They’ve all taken this as a “baseline” to supposedly cover the “unknown end percentage based on present rate of increases”.
Howz THAT for a BS-line to explain an impossibility!
But even then, CO2 temp-forcing works in a reverse-logarithmic fashion. Meaning that the FIRST 20ppm did most of what CO2 CAN do in regards to being a global-warming gas.
The next 20ppm did half as much, the next 20 did half that, and so on. You can double it all you want, right up to the point of asphyxiation, and the planet won’t get but a couple of degrees warmer, because the planet will probably equalize using a re-balance of the amount of water vapor it keeps in the air, and heat in the oceans. (Caloric-load-balance/pressure-diffusion)
Why is it when I put my science-hat on, I wanna punch a hippy?;-)
*Sellllllllmaaaaaaa* *sigh*
Actually Prag, it may be a career move for Zorita.
In several of the e-mails, I can remember Phil being pissed off at him for “going off the ranch”. In this case, he spilled the beans about which version of programming model he used in a paper to a climate-journalist, and it was not supposed to be known that there was different versions. He did it innocently enough, and the journalist was an “insider” too, but Phil came across as one-thin-skinned dood. (In many occasions)
I read another from Zorita turning down an offer to co-author a paper with Phil.
They collaborated on a few papers together, and both fed papers to the UN, and to the same “approved” Journals, but I got the feeling Zorita didn’t like the level of dirty science the CRU (Phil and Mann) were doing. Not that he was above playing along for 6 years, as he could have said those same words long a go, but didn’t.
He may be positioning himself…
(edit/added)
Prog, you asked:
Could you expand on the question a bit more?
@Pragmatic 52
You don’t have to be a conservative or Republican to disagree with the agenda driven politicized pseudo-science of “Global Warming”/”Climate-change” fanaticism. many of us in the field recognize that it is a hoax because we also know something about how meteorology data is acquired and processed.
I first knew such fanatics were full of it when they were projecting another Ice Age back in the seventies. Later, when all this Global Warming propaganda started being paraded out in the so called “news” I started looking into where they were supposedly getting their data. I ignored the meaningless temperature comparisons (“past” and present based on weather station’s placed in areas of urban growth, compared to supposed measurements of 100 years ago, far before the urban sprawl of today,)
I looked more to the meteorology satellite data studies from the last 30 decades. Two “scientists” who at first denied “global warming” suddenly did a turnaround and claimed that the satellite data had errors in it and that their corrections of the errors lead them to support that global warming had taken place within the last 30 years. Intrigued, I started looking closer at their research. The “errors” these two announced, were of their “discovery” that the meteorological satellites involved were not in the orbits that they were thought to be, and that this “introduced an error in the thermal data.”
Well, my military career just happened to be in the command/control/data retrieval systems of certain models of the particular spacecraft these two named. (DMSP AKA the Defense Meteorology Satellite Program’s “birds”). Their claim that these satellites were not where we thought they were, is both ridiculous and a baldfaced lie. First of all, to acquire communications with these sun-synchronize orbiting spacecraft, you have to know their orbital path. Only then can you make the calculations to align your antenna at the proper look angles to acquire and track each specific satellite. All perturbations, (even the most minor,) in the orbits are reported to all tracking systems as required. (There are many of these spacecraft and none are in the same orbit because you don’t want them impacting each other). Aside from the visual and thermal data, these particular spacecraft send down tertiary data, which includes their exact orbital path, altitude and point-in- time position. On top of this, the spacecraft command and control systems automatically perform error checking of each spacecraft’s reported orbital path, position and attitude a minimum of twice daily, as each satellite passes overhead.
I’ll also make note that the majority of the meteorological satellites these two “scientists” named, have attitude and orbital correction motors installed, and their orbits can be “tweaked” by ground control operators. this most often happens with the geosynchronous orbiting birds in order to change where their sensors are aligned. At any rate, you can rest assured that those controlling these spacecraft know precisely where they are in their orbits, and where their sensors are pointed at all times.
One last poke I will make at those two so called “scientists.” Their claim to the “orbital error” of the sun-synchronized spacecraft, (even if it were true,) can have introduced no error whatsoever in the thermal data collected, because the data is collected precisely of the portions of the Earth that the spacecraft is passing over. The only way that there could be thermal error is if the individual sensors themselves are malfunctioning, and this will easily be known and can usually be compensated for. If it’s sensor(s) fail out-right, you either switch to the back-up sensors, or failing that consider that bird’s data as unreliable, announce it as such, and you will generally stop using it.
By show of Digital hands, how many of you out there have read Ronald Reagans Autobiography?
I find it very interesting that it is almost considered criminal in today’s political dialogue on any venue, to speak plainly about anything of substantial importance. It’s as if our society has deemed any arguement or candid answer to an “ulterior motive”based questions using less than 14 complete sentances as as insufficiant. I Wonder what would become of the “democratic” party if the republican party mandated that all of it’s party officials started asking and answering questions in 25 or less words. That is something that I admire about the “old guard” They still speak in plain english, even when they say things that are not necessarily right or true. At least they speak plainly, and it is so much easier to respect them because of that single observation. Wow.
Wasn’t the UN origionally created to deal with WARTIME ISSUES ONLY.???
Hmmm, what have we here? People are calling on the Academy to take back Gore’s Oscar:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/academy-%e2%80%94-take-back-gores-oscar/
and that was because of the hacked e-mails, wait til they see this:
More:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/dutch-gore-wrong-on-snows-of-kilimanjaro/
And, for Patvann, the thirst for accurate knowledge about climate must be in the genes:
More:
http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/Wetenschap/252385/Nederlander-ontkracht-klimaatbewijs-van-Al-Gore.htm
Just for the record I thought I’d add this from Prof. Christy’s testimony before Congress:
Now we learn that Christopher Horner may have to sue to gain access to Hansen’s data as NASA has up to now not released the information which Horner made as a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request.
Is there another shoe to drop in the climategate scandal? This one closer to home?
P.S. @MindJedi: I have read RR’s autobiography. Not one of the best autobios, even though I think he was one of our best Presidents.
BENDOR would bet his next paycheck that PRAGMATIC hasn’t even…
…read the Copenhagen Treaty.
Am I right?
Finally, the Sun is parting the clouds on climate fraud. And not a moment too soon.
The science fraud lunatics will slowly start to die way like this: Denial. Anger. Bargaining. Depression. and finally, Acceptance.
I will be laughing quite joyfully the entire time.
“Lorrie Goldstein concludes her piece by saying…”
Lorrie is a man.
dang… and here I thought Lorrie was a flat bed truck….
well, Mike. That does it. The entire post is called into question! LOL
http://www.androidsystem.org/androids.html
i have greatly enjoyed reading the posts here and appreciate the links and very informative replies. as i am neither a scientist, or have a college degree in anything, i can not list myself as a formidable mind, but i have always felt college was unnecessary when it comes to intelligence. I have read as much as i can on the topic, from journals and submitted papers, to the insane data feeds………what a bore lol and quite lacking in any substantial effort and honesty. i came to the conclusion many moons ago that something was wrong. after many years wondering why, we now have to look at motive………..and boy is it a doosy .
how do we get the media to report honestly on anything anymore? will this change after 2010, when they become irrelevant, and their motives and left political bent is shown? or will the U.N and Obama and the other world leaders try to continue on their goals of world domination and wealth redistribution and global governance. what is your thoughts on copenhagen, and upcoming U.N. meetings in 2010 and 2011? where can i get more information on this? and though it doesnt have to be in layman’s terms it would be easier to wade through
@Psychosis,
I personally believe the manstream media will never report just the facts. Sensationalism sells, and journalism is considered one of the Liberal Arts (at least in the US.) Journalism is a brutal business, with scads of unreliable sources and relentless pressure to be the first to get a story out. Mainstream media has become an outlet for eager young liberals to make a name for themselves by propagating and sensationalizing inuendo faster than the other journalists. Two or more unreliable sources are better than facts, especially when the issue elicits a visceral response. Besides, fact-checking wastes valuable time. If something feels right, who cares if facts evenfually moot a point? There’s always another sensational story that the American public simply must be told.
I don’t believe for a moment that the media will admit to being irrelevant. It’s not part of their fabric to be self-analytical, much less self-critical and honest. If liberals lose control of Congress, I believe all we’re going to hear for the next two years is how the newly-elected members of Congress refuse Obama’s “sincere” calls for non-partisan politics. Most likely we’ll hear how the “tea-baggers” and. “neo-conservatives” conspired to block the Democratic Party’s social progress. Textbooks will blame these same groups for halting or even reversing the progress made by Obama, who will be proclaimed the best President the country could have had if only the radical right wingers hadn’t stood in his way.
I would LOVE to be wrong about all of this!
– sigh –
The following is, in my opinion, a “must read” for climate change skeptics and non-skeptics alike. It is science, and is where the discussion should be focused:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/09/hockey-stick-observed-in-noaa-ice-core-data/
One can take numerous subsets of the data to predict global warming OR global cooling, so it seems reasonable to be suspicious of ANY computer model that shows only an anticipated overall rise or fall in global temperatures. Statistics gives insight into data trends, but statistics of subsets of data can be made easily to “justify” any agenda.
This doesn’t absolve the human race of the need to be responsible with natural resources and nature in general, but it does suggest that the hype over man-made climate change has less to do with real science, and more to do with politics, corruption, willfully neglectful greed, and agenda-based propaganda.
Jeff
@Mikki: Yes, Right ! And all the Unicorns will return from the dimension they escaped to and we will all sing Cum-By-Ya FOREVER. Just like they do in North Korea.