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My advice to Republicans is not to go trashing those people too badly. You made Jim Jeffords (VT) feel so bad that he formally switched from GOP to independent and caucused with the Democrats.
It’s very easy being a good Republican in South Carolina, part of the incredible shrinking geographic area where Republicans are competitive in state wide races. It’s much harder being a “perfect” Republican in Maine and PA.
And, how ’bout that Charlie Crist!
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
bill-tb
14 years ago
Yep, out they go.
I ask two questions, what’s the timeline for recovery? How much did you get for your vote?
sherlock
14 years ago
To answer the question “What would it accomplish?” I answer: it would give real conservatives some reason to care about and work for the party. After the campaign McCain just ran, which was an insult to half-assed people everywhere, I don’t see much worth getting excited about. If you won’t stand up for me, don’t look for me to stand up for you.
bbartlog
14 years ago
I actually think there’s a chance Specter will retire in 2010… he’s quite old and I don’t know if he really has the stomach for the kind of fight he’ll be in for :-).
I will say that my perspective is different from that of Dick Morris: he seems concerned about ‘leverage’, ‘sending a message’ and the importance of party discipline in improving your negotiating position. Well, speaking as someone who often has his own disagreements with the Republican party line, I wouldn’t criticize Specter just because he voted against the party. The problem is that this bill is truly awful, laying waste the wealth of generations yet unborn. The problem with the vote is the direct culpability for the bill, not with all the strategic aftereffects that Morris is so interested in.
Fit fit
14 years ago
Just wait till Obama taps McCain and Graham to head up an Immigration Reform package…
philly_nj
14 years ago
Arlen Specter … John McCain .. Just a couple of old dogs who have been kicked around by Democrats for years .. time to replace them with a couple of pittbulls (with or without lipstick :))
.
SpideyTerry
14 years ago
I say toss Specter out. It wasn’t his voting for the bill that really angered me (though it did irk me). It was the fact that he didn’t even read the damn thing. I don’t care how long it was. And I especially don’t care if others do it with other bills. None of them should do that! They influence so much about our country. To just vote yes (or no) on something without knowing what’s in it is beyond irresponsible.
Geez, these people only go to work three damn days a week! You’d think Specter would have the time to read!
Neo
14 years ago
Between his brain surgery (I think they left something out) and his cancer, it time to retire Arlen Specter.
“These three senators, pledged to cut taxes and oppose massive growth in federal spending, could have demanded a 2-to-1 ratio for tax cuts over spending, rather than the reverse, as Obama is succeeding in getting.
Instead, the three wimped out and caved in for peanuts from Obama. In doing so, they completely stripped their party of any leverage.”
He’s complaining that these dummies threw away leverage that could have CHANGED the bill that you (rightly) think stinks. The strategic comment was not, to my reading, made in isolation. Indeed, that’s what a strategy is, a means to get to the end you prefer.
I didn’t see the two as independent of each other. Dick Morris has never seemed, to me, to be a man interested in theoretical skirmishes with no practical purpose.
The fact that the bill stinks only makes their support the more egregious. But, his point is well taken. They sold out for meaningless peanuts and, IN THE PROCESS, prevented the R’s in the Senate from being in a TACTICAL position to change the bill.
Timothy
14 years ago
Larry,
“Jumping Jim” was a mercenary who simply sold his seat to the Dems. It wasn’t because he felt pressured, it’s because he was offered a price he could refuse. The only “pressure” he felt was the weight of his wallet after the sale.
Secondly, the Republicans have no voice and are locked out. So what if Spector jumps ship…is there really a difference??? Today’s politicians are so seperated from the public they couldn’t give a flip about the peons (except when they need our votes).
As to the Demmies, it’s your show now, just like the Repubicans in 2000…little good that’s gonna do.
What does it mean to be conservative in 2009? I tend to think the Republican Party changed so dramatically into an evangelical based party that actual “conservative” principals were morphed into something else. Now without much power in congress are they going to be the “loyal opposition” or will they be obstructionists? Is the political calculus such that obstructionism, regardless of if it is based upon clear principals or not the best way back into power, regardless of the outcome.
Right now I am totally on the fence. The Republican Party has totally let me down on so many issues, why should I believe them anymore? Most economics and even Republicans believe we need a stimulus of sorts to get the economy going again. Tax cuts or spending, each fall back on some constituency of conservative or liberal principals. Will one work over another? That seems to be the academic question.
On the other side is it surprising that the Democrats fresh off major wins in the house and senate and White House, would be less giving… even though the tax cuts seem like a big switch from their perspective.
The first goal after all of this crisis is to pass a balanced budget amendment and set the country back on a path to paying off its debts, breaking up banks that are “too big to fail”. If any “moral hazard” ever has to accrue to the taxpayers again, then the business is not in the public interest. We need Teddy Roosevelt to come back to fix this shit.
Listening to Dick Morris is like listening to the worse form of scum. He is a man whore.
now blast, how can an entire caucus of House GOPs be “obstructionists” when their presence isn’t even necessary for a vote? They will barely register on the richter scale.
And with Snowe, Collins and Spectre, it’s no different in the Senate.
Disagree that the GOP has become more “evangelical”. In fact, like the nation, it has become less consumed with traditional (aka old fashioned) issues like abortion, divorce etal. Many of the young just don’t concern themselves with that.
What they should do is return to the conservative fiscal policies and hang their hats on that. In the case of the stimulus, they have. Too little, too late, IMHO. But better than nothing.
tfhr
14 years ago
Along with the troika of Specter, Snowe, and Collins, you can add the non-voting John Cornyn, my very own U.S. Senator from Texas, to the list of people that don’t seem to give a damn about our economic future and the kudzu-like growth of government.
Somewhat like the people “represented” by Judd Gregg, Cornyn decided to tend to other business that day and left me without a Senate voice or vote. I understand that Gregg does not want to anger his new master despite the fact that his only real responsibility (census) as the Secretary of Commerce, if confirmed, has been transferred to Rahm Emanuel. I don’t think Gregg deserves a pass by any means but John Cornyn absolutely should have been in the thick of the debate and should have been thoroughly engaged in arm twisting Specter, et al. Whether a RINO vote or absent, these four Senators have cheated conservatives that sent them to DC to represent us.
I am a firm believer in TERM LIMITS and this is Cornyn’s second time around. I would have supported another conservative willing to run against him anyway but after this sorry behavior, I will actually send cash to anyone that even looks like they have chance to kick Cornyn out on his ass.
What they should do is return to the conservative fiscal policies and hang their hats on that.
Bingo!
That’s precisely the way out. Run candidates who focus like a laser on economic issues, appoint conservative judges (the only real way to influence “social” issues) but otherwise get religion out of the platform and don’t pretend that morality can or should be legislated in the non-Islamic world, and don’t nominate airheads like Sarah Palin. Stop making ignorance into some type of a virtue, where the only thing which matters is that your candidate shares your “values.” People with “values” are a dime a dozen. What you need are articulate leaders with a positive and inclusionary message who can communicate with people who don’t initially agree with them and persuade those people that the Republican way is the better way.
The GOP puts way too much emphasis on being against things (look at what it was about Sarah Palin which ignited the GOP “base”) and especially puts too much emphasis on being against certain types of people. The Karl Rove trio of evangelical voters, rabid anti-social spending voters, and strong on traditional military defense voters won’t be big enough to win national elections anymore.
You go ostracizing the likes of Specter, Snowe, and Collins and you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I’ll be curious to see how Specter’s poll numbers are influenced by his stimulus vote. Obama beat McCain by 10.4 points in Pennsylvania. You seem to feel that a Senator can just ignore his constituents. In the real world, it doesn’t work that way.
mata: now blast, how can an entire caucus of House GOPs be “obstructionists” when their presence isn’t even necessary for a vote?
For the record I asked a rhetorical question which was weighing if the Republicans would be obstructionists or the loyal opposition. Are they seeking power for power’s sake or are they offering a principled position? I don’t trust them anymore since history shows they are really good at wasteful spending even without an economic emergency.
bbartlog
14 years ago
You go ostracizing the likes of Specter, Snowe, and Collins and you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I’ll be curious to see how Specter’s poll numbers are influenced by his stimulus vote. Obama beat McCain by 10.4 points in Pennsylvania. You seem to feel that a Senator can just ignore his constituents.
Uh, I *am* one of Specter’s constituents. And while he seems to have done a pretty good job ignoring me I certainly hope that he will ultimately pay a price for this vote.
As for being obstructionists versus being a loyal opposition, I’m generally a fan of obstructionists (the framing, of course, is intended to lead people to the opposite conclusion). Normally, though not always, it’s a good day when the government gets nothing done.
“if the Republicans would be obstructionists or the loyal opposition. Are they seeking power for power’s sake or are they offering a principled position? I don’t trust them anymore since history shows they are really good at wasteful spending even without an economic emergency.”
Have you been awake for the last twenty years? You are trying to stick the republicans with age old democrat tactics.
My advice to Republicans is not to go trashing those people too badly. You made Jim Jeffords (VT) feel so bad that he formally switched from GOP to independent and caucused with the Democrats.
It’s very easy being a good Republican in South Carolina, part of the incredible shrinking geographic area where Republicans are competitive in state wide races. It’s much harder being a “perfect” Republican in Maine and PA.
And, how ’bout that Charlie Crist!
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Yep, out they go.
I ask two questions, what’s the timeline for recovery? How much did you get for your vote?
To answer the question “What would it accomplish?” I answer: it would give real conservatives some reason to care about and work for the party. After the campaign McCain just ran, which was an insult to half-assed people everywhere, I don’t see much worth getting excited about. If you won’t stand up for me, don’t look for me to stand up for you.
I actually think there’s a chance Specter will retire in 2010… he’s quite old and I don’t know if he really has the stomach for the kind of fight he’ll be in for :-).
I will say that my perspective is different from that of Dick Morris: he seems concerned about ‘leverage’, ‘sending a message’ and the importance of party discipline in improving your negotiating position. Well, speaking as someone who often has his own disagreements with the Republican party line, I wouldn’t criticize Specter just because he voted against the party. The problem is that this bill is truly awful, laying waste the wealth of generations yet unborn. The problem with the vote is the direct culpability for the bill, not with all the strategic aftereffects that Morris is so interested in.
Just wait till Obama taps McCain and Graham to head up an Immigration Reform package…
Arlen Specter … John McCain .. Just a couple of old dogs who have been kicked around by Democrats for years .. time to replace them with a couple of pittbulls (with or without lipstick :))
.
I say toss Specter out. It wasn’t his voting for the bill that really angered me (though it did irk me). It was the fact that he didn’t even read the damn thing. I don’t care how long it was. And I especially don’t care if others do it with other bills. None of them should do that! They influence so much about our country. To just vote yes (or no) on something without knowing what’s in it is beyond irresponsible.
Geez, these people only go to work three damn days a week! You’d think Specter would have the time to read!
Between his brain surgery (I think they left something out) and his cancer, it time to retire Arlen Specter.
BENEDICT ARNOLDS OF THE GOP
By Dick Morris
to bbartlog:
To quote Dick Morris:
“These three senators, pledged to cut taxes and oppose massive growth in federal spending, could have demanded a 2-to-1 ratio for tax cuts over spending, rather than the reverse, as Obama is succeeding in getting.
Instead, the three wimped out and caved in for peanuts from Obama. In doing so, they completely stripped their party of any leverage.”
He’s complaining that these dummies threw away leverage that could have CHANGED the bill that you (rightly) think stinks. The strategic comment was not, to my reading, made in isolation. Indeed, that’s what a strategy is, a means to get to the end you prefer.
I didn’t see the two as independent of each other. Dick Morris has never seemed, to me, to be a man interested in theoretical skirmishes with no practical purpose.
The fact that the bill stinks only makes their support the more egregious. But, his point is well taken. They sold out for meaningless peanuts and, IN THE PROCESS, prevented the R’s in the Senate from being in a TACTICAL position to change the bill.
Larry,
“Jumping Jim” was a mercenary who simply sold his seat to the Dems. It wasn’t because he felt pressured, it’s because he was offered a price he could refuse. The only “pressure” he felt was the weight of his wallet after the sale.
Secondly, the Republicans have no voice and are locked out. So what if Spector jumps ship…is there really a difference??? Today’s politicians are so seperated from the public they couldn’t give a flip about the peons (except when they need our votes).
As to the Demmies, it’s your show now, just like the Repubicans in 2000…little good that’s gonna do.
Now kindly go back to your rock.
What does it mean to be conservative in 2009? I tend to think the Republican Party changed so dramatically into an evangelical based party that actual “conservative” principals were morphed into something else. Now without much power in congress are they going to be the “loyal opposition” or will they be obstructionists? Is the political calculus such that obstructionism, regardless of if it is based upon clear principals or not the best way back into power, regardless of the outcome.
Right now I am totally on the fence. The Republican Party has totally let me down on so many issues, why should I believe them anymore? Most economics and even Republicans believe we need a stimulus of sorts to get the economy going again. Tax cuts or spending, each fall back on some constituency of conservative or liberal principals. Will one work over another? That seems to be the academic question.
On the other side is it surprising that the Democrats fresh off major wins in the house and senate and White House, would be less giving… even though the tax cuts seem like a big switch from their perspective.
The first goal after all of this crisis is to pass a balanced budget amendment and set the country back on a path to paying off its debts, breaking up banks that are “too big to fail”. If any “moral hazard” ever has to accrue to the taxpayers again, then the business is not in the public interest. We need Teddy Roosevelt to come back to fix this shit.
Listening to Dick Morris is like listening to the worse form of scum. He is a man whore.
now blast, how can an entire caucus of House GOPs be “obstructionists” when their presence isn’t even necessary for a vote? They will barely register on the richter scale.
And with Snowe, Collins and Spectre, it’s no different in the Senate.
Disagree that the GOP has become more “evangelical”. In fact, like the nation, it has become less consumed with traditional (aka old fashioned) issues like abortion, divorce etal. Many of the young just don’t concern themselves with that.
What they should do is return to the conservative fiscal policies and hang their hats on that. In the case of the stimulus, they have. Too little, too late, IMHO. But better than nothing.
Along with the troika of Specter, Snowe, and Collins, you can add the non-voting John Cornyn, my very own U.S. Senator from Texas, to the list of people that don’t seem to give a damn about our economic future and the kudzu-like growth of government.
http://www.burntorangereport.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8023
Somewhat like the people “represented” by Judd Gregg, Cornyn decided to tend to other business that day and left me without a Senate voice or vote. I understand that Gregg does not want to anger his new master despite the fact that his only real responsibility (census) as the Secretary of Commerce, if confirmed, has been transferred to Rahm Emanuel. I don’t think Gregg deserves a pass by any means but John Cornyn absolutely should have been in the thick of the debate and should have been thoroughly engaged in arm twisting Specter, et al. Whether a RINO vote or absent, these four Senators have cheated conservatives that sent them to DC to represent us.
I am a firm believer in TERM LIMITS and this is Cornyn’s second time around. I would have supported another conservative willing to run against him anyway but after this sorry behavior, I will actually send cash to anyone that even looks like they have chance to kick Cornyn out on his ass.
Mata —
Bingo!
That’s precisely the way out. Run candidates who focus like a laser on economic issues, appoint conservative judges (the only real way to influence “social” issues) but otherwise get religion out of the platform and don’t pretend that morality can or should be legislated in the non-Islamic world, and don’t nominate airheads like Sarah Palin. Stop making ignorance into some type of a virtue, where the only thing which matters is that your candidate shares your “values.” People with “values” are a dime a dozen. What you need are articulate leaders with a positive and inclusionary message who can communicate with people who don’t initially agree with them and persuade those people that the Republican way is the better way.
The GOP puts way too much emphasis on being against things (look at what it was about Sarah Palin which ignited the GOP “base”) and especially puts too much emphasis on being against certain types of people. The Karl Rove trio of evangelical voters, rabid anti-social spending voters, and strong on traditional military defense voters won’t be big enough to win national elections anymore.
You go ostracizing the likes of Specter, Snowe, and Collins and you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I’ll be curious to see how Specter’s poll numbers are influenced by his stimulus vote. Obama beat McCain by 10.4 points in Pennsylvania. You seem to feel that a Senator can just ignore his constituents. In the real world, it doesn’t work that way.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
For the record I asked a rhetorical question which was weighing if the Republicans would be obstructionists or the loyal opposition. Are they seeking power for power’s sake or are they offering a principled position? I don’t trust them anymore since history shows they are really good at wasteful spending even without an economic emergency.
You go ostracizing the likes of Specter, Snowe, and Collins and you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I’ll be curious to see how Specter’s poll numbers are influenced by his stimulus vote. Obama beat McCain by 10.4 points in Pennsylvania. You seem to feel that a Senator can just ignore his constituents.
Uh, I *am* one of Specter’s constituents. And while he seems to have done a pretty good job ignoring me I certainly hope that he will ultimately pay a price for this vote.
As for being obstructionists versus being a loyal opposition, I’m generally a fan of obstructionists (the framing, of course, is intended to lead people to the opposite conclusion). Normally, though not always, it’s a good day when the government gets nothing done.
@blast:
“if the Republicans would be obstructionists or the loyal opposition. Are they seeking power for power’s sake or are they offering a principled position? I don’t trust them anymore since history shows they are really good at wasteful spending even without an economic emergency.”
Have you been awake for the last twenty years? You are trying to stick the republicans with age old democrat tactics.
Trust these guys?
http://swineline.org/2008/08/28/pork-in-the-presidential-race/
Ermmm….Senate terms are for 6 years. 2006 was not a special election to fill a seat so Spector should come up for reelection in 2012, no? Just sayin’.