Frank Rich, the always hyperventilating liberal, is at it again today in this column inside the New York Times. As usual with most of the far left he calls Bush another Hitler, and the CIA his Gestapo. This time he also calls those Americans who do nothing about the Bush Administration’s use of interrogation techniques “good Germans.” The whole article really isn’t worth citing from except this part:
Our humanity has been compromised by those who use Gestapo tactics in our war. The longer we stand idly by while they do so, the more we resemble those “good Germans” who professed ignorance of their own Gestapo.
Typical baloney.
These are the same kind of liberals who believe putting panties on one head is “torture”, and Mr. Rich also obviously believes sleep deprivation is “torture” because he can cite cases where the Germans used that technique also. Well whoopdidoo…..Do these liberals really believe that a hard core al-Qaeda agent is just going to sit down and tell us everything because we were super nice to them? Gave them some cookies and warm milk? It appears they do.
These are the same people who actually DO torture:
I’m sorry, slapping one’s head or depriving them of some sleep, or turning the thermostat down, is NOT torture. What these guy do above IS torture. But people like Frank Rich and Andrew Sullivan ignore that. They ignore that causing someone a bit of discomfort because they are denied a pillow and blanket to get some shuteye just may get information on the next terrorist cell. The next planned terrorist operation planned for inside the United States. The next IED factory inside Iraq.
The best example of coerced interrogation, or torture, depending on
your sensitivity level, is what happened to al-Qaeda big shot Khalid
Sheikh Mohammed. Captured in Pakistan in 2003, U.S. authorities used
tough methods, including “water boarding,” to break Mohammed. And break
him they did. According to a multitude of reports, Mohammed gave up
scores of al-Qaeda operatives and detailed a number of potential terror
attacks.Both former CIA chief George Tenet and former CIA
official Michael Scheuer, once the head of the bin Laden unit, told me
that coerced interrogation methods often provided accurate intelligence
that potentially saved thousands of lives.So what, then, are we to make of a recent New York Times
editorial that says, “Truly banning the use of torture would not
jeopardize American lives; experts in these matters generally agree
that torture produces false confessions.”But that is simply not true, and the Times knows it.
Even Hillary Clinton cannot be counted as one who opposes torture in all circumstances:
Even Clinton’s response to a debate question on torture – “As a matter of policy it cannot be American policy, period” – is elegantly phrased to imply an implacable opposition to torture, and yet leave open the possibility that in extreme circumstances a president would do what she had to do, i.e. authorize torture, regardless of the express policy.
Of course the Frank Rich’s of the world are probably Dennis Kucinich fans.
The fact of the matter is that we are waging this war as humanely as possible, often to our own detriment. Our troops are put into situations that are more risky then they need to be because we do not want to kill civilians. Those al-Qaeda agents we do capture could very well be executed on the spot if we follow the rules of war, but we don’t. We instead feed them and clothe them, and then interrogate them, as any responsible nation would that wanted to protect its soldiers and citizens. And interrogation via the use of sleep deprivation, or head slapping, or girls panties being placed on one’s head is not inhumane.
The torture chambers Saddam used was inhumane. The rape rooms that Saddam used was inhumane.
You know, those same chambers we put into mothballs because we invaded.
The left conveniently forgets that fact, to no ones surprise. In the end you cannot get over the simple fact that conservatives have been condemning large scale murder and torture by nation states such as Saddams for years, while liberals excuse it.
See author page
Hillary says: “”As a matter of policy it cannot be American policy, period.”
But no one asked her what the meaning of the word “policy” is.
Expect the usual whiny hand wringing liberal gibberish in comments on this post. They’ll blindly repeat the “torture doesn’t work” crap despite the fact that these aggressive interrogation methods have produced information that has saved thousands of lives.
And intelligence agencies have a standard practice of cross checking information gained this way with other sources and methods.
Aggressive interrogation DOES work and it DOES SAVE LIVES. I’d like to see the “news” media go around to the places where we know we have prevented attacks and ask the people who live, work or transit through there if they would rather we not use aggressive interrogation techniques?
Rich was quoting A.Sullivan about Gestapo tactics. You know that Sullivan who is true conservative, not the member of Bush/neocon fan club, which mostly is comprised of the GOP voters.
Let me give you another hint, let’s take the Gestapo comparisons away, and replace them with Bolshevik/Stalinists interrogation techniques. Feel better now?
BTW, I hope you have read the account of our WWII interrogators, who’d got all the necessary results from the questioning Nazi prisoners without compromising their own humanity.
“BTW, I hope you have read the account of our WWII interrogators, who’d got all the necessary results from the questioning Nazi prisoners without compromising their own humanity.”
You’re referring to the war where American soldiers almost never took Japanese prisoners, correct? The war where it was not at all uncommon for American soldiers to execute NAZI prisoners. The war where American soldiers were essentially ordered not to capture enemy snipers-at all.
Have you EVER read a first hand account from a soldier in WWII? Have you ever spoken with a WWII infantryman? If you know any, please, take a moment and ask em if they ever saw enemy soldiers tortured by means worse than a cold cell in Cuba, or sleep deprivation, etc.
I submit that you are not only incorrect in your claim, but grossly un-informed and purely making things up for political purposes rather than reality. This is planet Earth, perhaps the got the address wrong when your saucer landed.
Thank you you to Frank Rich for his column today regarding torture. The youtube video at this link
mashes together various Bush administration denials in support of the argument. Americans must decide if we are a nation which allows torture or not. Whether we as a nation should conduct torture is fundamentally not political question but a moral and legal one. With this issue once again front and center as a result of the recent leaked memos, the American people have an opportunity to assert their basic decency and work to oppose torture of human beings under any circumstances. Taking steps to ensure that we do not torture can turn this country back from its current path by addressing issues of legal rights, executive authority and in the process reestablish America’s moral authority and standing with the international community and with US citizens. John Kirk
I have another idea…how about we take away all the inflammatory historical comparisons and evaluate the issue based on the facts?
Yes, sashal, I did get your point and my comment is not directed at you. At least not ONLY you. We need to stop arguing based on emotional comparisons and review the facts with sober judgment. I absolutely agree that no one’s humanity should be compromised by their interrogation techniques, but there is a lot of room for disagreement over where that line is drawn. Even in regards to any particular technique. Sleep deprivation, for example, is very uncomfortable in the short term, but carried on long enough it can become life-threatening. Where do you draw the line? Same for lowering the temperature – it all depends on the temperature and length of time they are subjected to it. Panties on the head? Sorry, I don’t consider humiliation of any kind to be torture, even the sort of humiliation that is contrary to one’s religious beliefs. (If anyone has an example of extreme humiliation that they think crosses the line, I’d be happy to reconsider my opinion).
Simple cure for the NYSlimes. Don’t be an idiot and purchase one. Close them down, game over.
I think the only way to get people to set their ideology and politics aside and think about this in an intellectual manner is to personalize it for them.
But the discussion should be in two parts. First, discuss what people believe is and is not “torture”.
After people have defined it, then make it personal for them. Present the situation that their children have been kidnapped. And the police have one of the perpetrators in custody and are trying to get some information from him as to their whereabouts. This situation also includes the fact that previous kidnapped children have been tortured and then killed by their kidnappers. (This is not too far-fetched as we had a number of these incidents occur over the past 20 years or so.)
Anyway, presented with that situation, ask the parents how far they would want the police to go during “interrogations” with the perpetrator who most likely knows some info which could save their children from torture and death.
Presented with that situation, I have a feeling most people would cross many “moral” lines.
As Americans, we are all part of a family. After New York and D.C. was attacked, people across the country united (if only for a short time) and weeped and mourned for New Yorkers – their fellow Americans, fellow “family” members.
This issue of “torturing” terrorists is the same. Only we are working to prevent our children from being taken from us.
This is not just some abstract issue or some political issue. This is real life. It would really help if the Left would come to the table with intellectual discussion on this instead of letting their ideology and politics frame everything. Granted, I guess it is difficult for this to happen when many of them don’t believe we even have a terrorist threat.
“Simple cure for the NYSlimes. Don’t be an idiot and purchase one. Close them down, game over.”
Posted by: scrapiron
Better yet Scrapy, just keep quoting Gen. Sanchez until they post the entire story:
“ALL ARE VICTIMS OF THE MASSIVE AGENDA DRIVEN COMPETITION FOR ECONOMIC OR POLITICAL SUPREMACY. THE DEATH KNELL OF YOUR ETHICS HAS BEEN ENABLED BY YOUR PARENT ORGANIZATIONS WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO ALIGN THEMSELVES WITH POLITICAL AGENDAS. WHAT IS CLEAR TO ME IS THAT YOU ARE PERPETUATING THE CORROSIVE PARTISAN POLITICS THAT IS DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY AND KILLING OUR SERVICEMEMBERS WHO ARE AT WAR.”
By the way, I wouldn’t let Rich drain my septic tank even if it was full and backing up. (which is the description of what’s happening at the NYT’s)
Mark Rich isn’t he that guy who Clinton pardoned?
Oh yea he was a gun runner who supplied Islamic terrorist?
WOW do we really care what the NYTs has to say looks like they are trying to cover up something again?
Someone is close to exposing something OH yea we are wining WHAT ABOUT Norman Hsu??
The idea of family is important. If you have a son or daughter, husband or wife, mother or father serving our country, your spouse, say, and that person gets captured, let’s say by Iran or in some African country, Somalia, say. Is it part of the job to endure induced hypothermia? Waterboarding? Sleep deprivation for weeks? Head slapping? Should that be legal? Not, does al Qaeda do it, but should that be a legal interrogation technique that our government has no business protesting? Lawful warfare? Hide the prisoners from the International Red Cross? You’re advocating that this be the new standard.
Should these be the interrogation techniques used at the local police station? Not just to get information on someone’s kidnapped kids, but get confessions from burglars to find out who fences for them? Drug dealers to find law enforcement’s way to the narcotics smugglers and growers?
But more importantly, I don’t understand why supporters of these methods don’t find it compelling, if the idea is to get good intelligence, that you get better intelligence through other means, as for example, the Israelis have found in their long history of interrogating terrorists whose children have been daily at risk of murderous attack. They don’t find these methods nearly as useful as the more direct informed questioning of a prisoner, having the same officer pursue the case day after day, use information gathered at every level through good police work. If the idea is to get information, why not go with the methods that work better? That’s what I don’t understand, unless the agenda is to be punitive, hurt the person, and forget trying to to gather useful intelligence. How much more we could have gotten from Halid Sheik Mohammad if skillful, trained interrogators had had him, instead of bunglers taking notes on whatever he raved while hallucinating in a sleep-deprived, psychotic delirium. I’m sure he told them whatever they wanted to hear. The transcripts of those interviews must be classic.
Freaking hilarious!
Really. Yoo guys kill me!
“My dad does worse than that too me! Just because I’m still living in his basement at 33 years of age.”
“How much more we could have gotten from Halid Sheik Mohammad if skillful, trained interrogators had had him, instead of bunglers taking notes on whatever he raved while hallucinating in a sleep-deprived, psychotic delirium. I’m sure he told them whatever they wanted to hear. The transcripts of those interviews must be classic.”
A lot of his interrogation comments are court record now from the Moussaui trial.
I agree sleep deprivation and icy cold can be life-threatening, but if done in moderation so as to not risk life…fine by me.
Course were it up to me, I’d make an argument that everyone in Gitmo should either be shot as a spy (no uniform=no protection in my mind), or be returned to the custody of the Afghan govt since none of their home countries seem to want em back. OR!!!!! We could ship em all to Dick Durbin’s district in the US and let him deal with it.
Steve – I am not advocating to start allowing our local police departments to waterboard criminals for information. The purpose of my example was to get this discussion away from politics and ideology onto actual examples of interrogation techniques in real life situations.
When people focus on politics, people start taking sides on issues based on which side will help/hurt whichever party. When people focus on actual issues and personalize them a bit, we can get better intellectual discussion.
I know of no one who argues that Al Qaeda is not evil. I don’t think anyone argues with the fact that they DO torture. But what they do is not relevant; we do not control their behavior, we control our behavior. We did not torture when our country was threatened by the British, we did not torture when our country was threatened during secession, we did not torture when our country was attacked by fascists or threatened by communists. Not just by our definition, but by anyone’s definition.
Why are conservatives so insistent about allowing torture? That is what we’re talking about. “enhanced interrogation” include (but are not limited to:
1. Prolonged isolation,
2. Prolonged sleep deprivation,
3. Sensory deprivation,
4. Extremely painful “stress positions,”
5. Sensory bombardment (such as prolonged loud noise and/or bright lights),
6. Forced nakedness,
7. Sexual humiliation,
8. Cultural humiliation (such as desecration of holy scriptures),
9. Being subjected to extreme cold that induces hypothermia,
10. Exploitation of phobias,
11. Simulation of the experience of drowning (waterboarding)
I’ll absolutely agree that our enemies torture. I’ll agree that Saddam tortured. But the question is, why should we torture? Don’t we want to be better than them?? Haven’t we always been better than that? Do you really believe a few thousand crazy islamists are a bigger threat to the US than the Nazis or the Soviet Union? Do you think that being as bad as they are will make us stronger (because that seems to be what you’re trying to say with these drawings, please tell me I’m mistaken)? I think the only threat substantial threat they pose to us is by getting us to abandon our most cherished principles to defeat them.
The British used to torture Americans during the Revolutionary war. We Americans even have a monument to remember it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Ship_Martyrs_Monument
If you don’t love America and what this country stands for. You are welcome to leave.
Let’s put things in the real world we don’t torture!!!
Also remember these people [NYT] are the same people who think that dodge ball is torture!
Again what are they trying to divert from could it be?
Shows they don’t care and are doing every thing they can to get our people killed shame shame!
http://www.newsmax.com/international/Turkey_genocide_americans/2007/10/11/40000.html
Armenian Genocide Bill Moves Ahead, Americans in Turkey Warned
October 11, 2007
Patrick Goodenough, CNSNews.com
In an opening statement that acknowledged the difficult decision, committee chairman Rep. Tom Lantos (D-Calif.), a Holocaust survivor, said the choice was a sobering one.
“We have to weigh the desire to express our solidarity with the Armenian people and to condemn this historic nightmare through the use of the word ‘genocide’ against the risk that it could cause young men and women in the uniform of the United States armed services to pay an even heavier price than they are currently paying,” he said.
read the rest of the story.
Remember THIS happened in 1915?
SO THE DEMS ARE DOING THIS TO HURT THE US MILTARY BUT THEY HAVE OPENED A PANDORAS BOX AND IF THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THROUGH IT WILL BE DIMMI FOR THE WEST.
Like I said lefties make me sick.
Why are the Democrat controlled congress not condemning the Sudan Arabs for killing all those black muslims and all that killing just happening? Yes current events.
This is part of the slow bleed then. Something already talked to death and approved by the American people in mass [you see we all like dodge ball] is just another attempt to aid and abet the enemy shame on the NYTs the paper of lies.
The American People need to stand up and fight those who aid this enemy you have licked your wounds and had your rest Time to stand up again!
Me I don’t believe Lantos (D-Calif.), is a Holocaust survivor I want to see the tattoos?
He said he was in 2 camps which means he would have tattoos?
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/george-soros-on-helping-the-nazis-during-the-holocaust
George Soros On Helping Nazis During Holocaust
Looks like these guys come from the same place what better way for a nazi supporter to blend in after they war then to claim to be a victim?
What temperature should cages be kept at for captured terrorists? 71 in winter and 68 in summer? Would 70 be torture?
How many hours is it before sleep deprivation is torture? Gotta get those 8hrs, or call Amnesty Inl?
Lo to the MP who makes Khalid Sheik Mohammed get naked for a public shower as is the case in most prisons, and arrest the saps who allow other prisoners to laugh at his lack of a member for that’s sexual torture and naked intimidation.
Prison ain’t supposed to be fun. Interrogations have to be somewhat manipulative or they will not gain any intel at all. I’m not advocating torture. I’m saying I think the rules in place are not torture, and what IS torture (as a benchmark) is what Al Queda does to captured Americans. THAT is what torture is. All this crap that the left calls torture to further feed their fracturing base is just political hate and fear aimed at “this administration” rather than substantive concerns.
Problem is, if the rhetoric gets too much (and it may already have gotten there), then the best solution is simple execution or extradition. Execution by US forces or extradition to Afghanistan who will surely perform REAL torture on their enemy, and then leave them in shipping containers for some real temperature modification, sleep deprivation, etc.
You guys like to call yourselves conservatives, but you would have been right at home in Stalin’s USSR. With all the show trials, torture and mass killing, you guys would have been in your heaven.
Totalitarians are totalitarians, whether they call themselves blosheviks, fascists, or even patriotic American conservatives.
You have no clue what this coutnry has been so carefully built on for 220 years; you don’t know a damned thing about why Americans have been willing to die for it in wars since the Revolution.
If it were up to you, this country would be just another squalid little police state, like so many we have fought against through the years.
Congratulations for staining our reputation in the world for generations to come.
Getmo Russian released killed after making it back to the battlefield NOW HOW DID THAT GET IN THERE?
The man, Ruslan Odizhev, was released by the United States in early 2004, and returned to Russia on the condition that he and six other repatriated Russian detainees would be tried in Russian courts.
Russia did not honor the agreement, however, and the men were freed. Mr. Odizhev had been missing and presumed to be living in hiding since 2005.
He died Wednesday in an apartment building in Nalchik, a city of 275,000 and the capital of the internal republic Kabardino-Balkariya, according to the F.S.B., the principal successor to the Soviet K.G.B.
The F.S.B. said that Mr. Odizhev and another man suspected of being a militant had died in a gun battle. Explosives were found with his body, the F.S.B. said.
HUMMM
The authorities said that Mr. Odizhev had returned home and entered the Islamic insurgency in the North Caucasus
OH BUT when you read the rest of the story it is a pity party so that is how it made it in?
Mulsum terrorist kills but is the real victim yep lib idea?
I am always surprised for those who fall for the lefties crap.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-06-27-russia-gitmo_N.htm
Russia: Ex-Guantanamo detainee killed
The FSB did not specify why agents were trying to detain him, but said he was a suspect in the 1999 bombings of apartment buildings in Moscow and Volgodonsk and that he took part in a 2005 insurgent attack on police and government facilities in Nalchik, the capital of Kabardino-Balkariya.
That attack left 139 people dead, including 94 militants
YEP NICE GUY?
GIVE ME A BREAK lefties make me sick.
Assassins plot to kill Putin in Iran
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3459844,00.html
Report: Assassins plot to kill Putin in Iran
Russian special services warned of plot to assassinate president when he visits Tehran
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301657,00.html
Kremlin Told of Plot to Assassinate Russian President Vladimir Putin
http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200602170825.asp
February 17, 2006, 8:25 a.m.
Second Chances
Not to Gitmo guys.
JUST A WALK DOWN the lanes of the past?
“…the more direct informed questioning of a prisoner, having the same officer pursue the case day after day, use information gathered at every level through good police work. If the idea is to get information, why not go with the methods that work better?”
What’s really sad is that if Democratic party gain power such nonsense can be put into practice.
Do you even hear yourself? …”direct informed questioning”, “same officer pursue the case day after day”, “information gathered at every level”, “good police work”… Jesus…I mean it’s like to come the trooper in a middle of a firefight, grab his gun with the words “there is a much effective way, know their weakness, play upon it, gather information at every level..good police work…act smart” or something equally enthusiastic and meaningless. And to have a gun in a battle is of course so much like a “bungler”. But you see the thing is that to point a gun and pull the trigger – it works. Just like torture. Just like pressure and coercion (aka “torture” when used by USA). If somebody as hard as terrorist don’t want to reveal something the only way is to make him. That’s what the CIA and military are doing. And of course the only reason they doing it because it works. They ARE getting the intelligence.
“You guys like to call yourselves conservatives, but you would have been right at home in Stalin’s USSR. With all the show trials, torture and mass killing, you guys would have been in your heaven.
Totalitarians are totalitarians, whether they call themselves blosheviks, fascists, or even patriotic American conservatives.
You have no clue what this coutnry has been so carefully built on for 220 years; you don’t know a damned thing about why Americans have been willing to die for it in wars since the Revolution.
If it were up to you, this country would be just another squalid little police state, like so many we have fought against through the years.
Congratulations for staining our reputation in the world for generations to come.”
I’m not american, i’m russian. I have a couple of relatives who lived through bolsheviks and Stalin. The ONLY reason i admire USA is a striking contrast between barbarism and totalitarianism of my country and the compassion, justice and freedom, which are core values of most americans.
And believe me if there is something in USA for which i feel disgusted, because it is unjust and very much pro totalitarian it is people like you (liberals, left or whatever). The values on which this country was built, the values which attract so many people living in barbaric or semi-barbaric (Russia) countries ARE represented by those whom you call “patriotic American conservatives”. It is you and people like you who back in the days supported USSR and now support i guess any scum imaginable, including totalitarian regimes (Castro, islamic theocracies e.t.c).
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run – Web Reconnaissance for 10/15/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.
What if the person in Guantanamo ISN’T a terrorist? We KNOW of two already – Padilla and el Masri, right? Anyone want to say that they deserved their torture?
Is it really just the fact that a person is on the wrong side of the bars at Guantanamo that means they’re an Evil Terrorist With Beheading Action(tm)?
This isn’t fiction – we don’t, in most cases can’t KNOW that a given person is a terrorist. That’s another reason not to make torture a standard policy – because then you will definitely be torturing some innocent people.
I would have responded to the real ‘fascists’ and ‘totalitarians’, i.e. the left wing, in the comments, but AlexD did a much better job.
Leftists: look in a mirror when you accuse others of totalitarianism and fascism. That what you accuse others of being is YOU looking back.
AlexD,
Unfortunatly, those same people you find disgusting are the ones who fully support the Maoists, Stalinists, and other assortied socialists (National and global). These people have NO ISSUES assaulting religion, culture, morals or anything else Crusty Dem pointed out, just so long as the victims are conservative Christians or Jews. And if the are questioned on this, then useful idiots like “Dave” are sent in to flood the blog with profanity.
If a leftist gets elected in 08, expect the phantom menance of “conservative militias” (anyone remember those?) to re-appear so the left can “interrogate” them and use any and every method the supposedly despise.
sfHeath,
Fine, then have Congress do their job and define the law. They define regulations for the military and through US Code. All they have to do is define what “torture” is and what is acceptable. Once that is done, then the Democrat controlled congress can say they ‘fixed’ the problem for “the greater good(tm)”.
Of course, that would mean they have to be responsible and accountable for something and that is not what the democrats are known for.
A good lens through which to view the torture debate is this: imagine we take into custody a 7 year old girl and her father who likely may know the location of a bomb the girl’s uncle was about to plant. The father won’t crack, even with harsh interrogation techniques (slapped around and beaten — but far short of anything to cause major organ failure — handcuffed into an extremely painful pretzel position, waterboarded, and other approved techniques). Should we try those techniques on the 7 year old girl — with her father watching — to see if (1) she might divulge something; or (2) she might cause her father to finally crack?
John, if you’ve seen someone advocate torturing families of terrorists, please link to it, otherwise it sounds like you’re just going to an extreme out of personal fear.
From what I’ve seen, no one is advocating that kind of thing. The worst they’ve advocated is waterboarding in extreme cases-not even the norm. There’s a detailed code for interrogating people, and anyone who’s read it sees it’s not torture-it’ ain’t fun by any stretch, but it’s not torture, and it’s not the first choice for interrogating despite what the loony leftists and Bush haters try to sell. No.
I was impressed by the idea that Padilla and another were innocents held down in Gitmo. Padilla’s guilty as hell, and anyone else/everyone else should get a tribunal as is the case in military matters. That is unless one wants to argue that these are not military matters in which case we need to start getting some ACLU lawyers out into the field to give Miranda rights to anyone captured while planting a bomb or shooting at American troops.
The Abu Ghurayb, [Abu Ghraib] prison, located approximately 20 miles west of Baghdad, is where Saddam Kamal (who was head of the Special Security Organization) oversaw the torture and execution of thousands of political prisoners. The prison was under the control of the Directorate of General Security (DGS) also known as the Amn al-Amm
xjudson,
You’re pointing to the prison as Saddam ran it, no?
Thanks Scott. No – I haven’t seen anyone advocate using harsh interrogation techniques (I’m not calling it torture) on families of suspects. It’s just a thought experiment. The rough version of the thought experiment is the ticking time bomb case. Suppose the little girl knows where her suspected terrorist uncle hid the nuclear weapon that will detonate this afternoon, but she refuses to “crack” because her father (who also won’t crack) has instructed her not to. I’m not advocating or foreswearing the use of harsh interrogation techniques, but just seeing what people think in closer, tougher cases.
Also note that a “suspected terrorist” is a lot different than a terrorist. I think when these two get conflated, people are far more accepting of torture, because it is seen as punishment for a crime that has been committed, rather than a means to obtain desparately needed information.
Are you suggesting that harsh interrogation techniques should NEVER be used on an innocent person, even if that person was suspected of being guilty at the time of the interrogation?
I think Chris G. makes an excellent point here:
“If a leftist gets elected in 08, expect the phantom menance of ‘conservative militias’ (anyone remember those?) to re-appear so the left can ‘interrogate’ them and use any and every method the supposedly despise.”
This highlights part of the problem in the debate about this issue. The left and the right might agree on the actual interrogation techniques, but the left inherently distrusts the use of those techniques by a right administration, and vice versa.
This is an interesting debate and forum.
“Are you suggesting that harsh interrogation techniques should NEVER be used on an innocent person, even if that person was suspected of being guilty at the time of the interrogation?”
I think that particularly post AbuG the code of conduct and requirements for using harsh interrogations is well defined, and not at all torture.
As to the nightmare scenario. I’ve never ever heard of a case where waterboarding didn’t work. I’ve seen it tried, and the guy it was tried on begged it to stop in less than 10seconds. Afterwards he said categorically that he’d have spilled his guts for sure. If you know of a case where it didn’t work, please enlighten.
John,
Not quite what I meant, but close. The “right” (though how many in the very political CIA are conservative?) would not use these techniques against American citizens, the left would. From the non-scientific sampling of trolls who spew hate against this site, the left is salivating at the chance to. The terrorists/Islamofascists/People who actually follow Islam (the terrorist’s term for themselves) are not a regular army and fight using methods the Law of Land Warfare deems as “spys” and “illegal combatants”. Captured, they have few rights.
Yet these thugs are treated far better than say the Haditha Marines (US Citizens in a regular, uniformed Armed Force) are. They get far better care than they would anywhere else in the world, even in their training camps. The terrorists are fed better and handled with relative kid gloves. I guarantee the Russians, Chinese, the terrorists themselves, or more than a few other countries would not treat such captives as well as we have. The photos from the manual in the topic and the 50 AQ prisoners we and the Iraqis freed when we captured these documents are just the latest proof of this.
The regulations for treatment of prisoners in GITMO are spelled out and investigations/”overwatch” by Congress and NGOs are constant. The logs from GITMO show that the only ones in real danger and duress are the US military guards who have to deal with these animals.
The left, when in power through the 90s, effectively ignored the threat of rising Islam and instead made up a PC threat called the “religious right” and “militias” and deemed many Constitutional protections void against them, including the use of military assets in law enforcement capacities. There were non-warranted wiretaps, but this time against US civilians (Carnivore and Echelon programs). There were IRS “audits” against political opponents. There were FBI files and records kept on opponents and anyone who could pose a legal threat to Clinton. And the list goes on.
The bottom line is that Congress has set forth regulations for prisoners but the left feels compelled to attack our efforts to gain information from these illegal combatants. The Army also wrestles with this issue. At CGSC (now called ILE) we spent hours debating this on all levels. This is not an easy issue and the fact we can, for now, debate the issue in a forum is one of the many things that set us far apart from our Islamofascist foes.
ChrisG,
You are truly delusional. I’ve NEVER heard a lefty express a desire to use these techniques on anyone, least of all American citizens. This is the domain of those given to totalitarianism and fascism, which certainly does not fit the current left (except in the fevered imagination of those who equate support of the constitution of the United States with islamofascists).
The point (which you seem completely incapable of grasping) is NOT whether the terrorists are evil. They’re not our role models. And the Russians and Chinese shouldn’t exactly be, either. We’re the the United States of America, and we stand tall. We’re the country of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln and Patrick Henry and Douglas MacArthur and we don’t lower ourselves in the face of an enemy, no matter how evil they may be. The whole point is that we’re BETTER THAN THAT. We can be honorable and still win.
It’s unfortunate that the right in this country get priapistic at the prospect of torturing an enemy. Just a reminder, the world is not 24 and you’re not Jack Bauer.
Crusty Dem,
No, I am not a fictional character in a Hollywierd story, I am a Soldier and an Officer trying to keep delusional asses who hate Bush more than they fear islamofascism from the fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your insults are untrue and unwarranted in the face of the evidence, especially where I said “From the non-scientific sampling of trolls who spew hate against this site, the left is salivating at the chance to.”
Notice I DID NOT attack you, you attacked me.
You need to read DKos, DU, indymedia, and look at what your comrades who post slop are stating. You need to LOOK at what the “Anti-War” protesters are saying! THIS is the Left’s base. This has been the case from “The Weathermen” to the modern ACT/ACORN/ANSWER lies and hate. “When we get power, just you wait” is something I have seen more than one leftist state. YOU may not agree with the “fringe” leftists who scream this crap, but the Dem leadership panders to them.
Yes, We ARE better than the rest and ARE held to IMPOSSIBLE standards that NO COUNTRY in HISTORY, aside from Israel is.
NOT ONCE have I advocated torture. Nor will I. Congress, controlled by the left and spineless RINOs needs to define new laws if they do not like the current ones. However, this will mean that THEY have to take responsibility for any new regulation. This is something I doubt they will do.
Harsh language, the presence of a female, sleep deprivation, and uncomfortable positions and loud music are NOT torture. If that were the case, are barbed wire and prison cells torture? Russia, China, AQ, and others also use them. We have the line drawn in regulations set down years ago.
Again, if Congress does not like the regulations and laws, they can change them, but THEY have to take responsibility for those changes and the outcomes.
Oh, LOVE this line:
“This is the domain of those given to totalitarianism and fascism, which certainly does not fit the current left (except in the fevered imagination of those who equate support of the constitution of the United States with islamofascists).”
How bout we rewind the way back machine to say, 1995 and restate as such: “This is the domain of those given to totalitarianism and fascism, which certainly does not fit the current conservative movement (except in the fevered imagination of those who equate support of the constitution of the United States with anti-government, racist militias).”
Back then it was “the evil militias are coming” and we have to change laws to defeat them. Love how leftists are now stating THEY are the ones defending the Constitution. That is even less believable than Bin Laden actually leaving use alone if we cave into his demands.
ChrisG,
I attacked you because you are delusional. You live in a wingnut fantasy world where Stalinist leftists are in league with islamofascists to destroy America. Angry leftists commenting does not equal support of torture for those who make them angry, particularly when that anger is directed at the ACT OF TORTURE. You say you don’t support torture, do you support our actions in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib? How about waterboarding?
I honestly have no idea what totalitarianism you are referring to from 1995. Are you talking about Waco/Ruby Ridge? The assault rifle ban? I’d like to hear what was so bad it makes the current assault on civil liberties pale in comparison.
The very fact that you have to bring up the Weathermen, an organization that has ceased to be for at least 32 years, to justify the violent left (any leftist violence in the US since then? There’s certainly plenty from the right) makes clear your delusions. Simple question, if the democratic party “pander to extreme leftists”, why haven’t they cut off funding for war in Iraq? The answer is that what fringe left there is (and given that the percentage of the population who want US troops out of Iraq within the next 12 months hovers between 60 and 70%, being anti-war is hardly “fringe”) is completely ignored by the democratic party.
As far as the amusement of lefties defending the constitution, 10 years ago I might have agreed with you (and besides Michael Moore and Ted Rall, who didn’t want us to go kill Bin Laden? So I really don’t appreciate being tarred with that absurdity that is your last sentence). It’s almost unimaginable to me that the party of Goldwater has drifted so far away from it’s libertarian roots. But that’s where we are until Republicans wake up.
Again the idiotic attacks…. I wonder why I even bother debating, but here goes.
So you have NO idea what the ANSWER/ACT/MOVE-On/Stormfront/Black Bloq protesters are saying at their little gatherings? Have you researched them at all? Do you know what they are writing and what they are demanding?
Did you know an “anti-war” protester hunted down and shot an unarmed Airman on the 4th of July this year? Did you know Code Pink sent funds and supplies to Fallujah during the Marine’s battles there? Do you know that indymedia has instructions on how to assault Soldiers within CONUS? Have you seen the comments left by leftists on milblogs and articles about Soldiers? Have you even seen the destruction cause by the Animal rights and environmentalist groups? Guess not.
And since the same members of the Weatherman and their spin-off groups are still around and spewing their vitriol, it IS relevant to the threat level. The left has made an unholy alliance with the Islamic caliphate wannabes, documented in more than a few places.
And I do not mean THIS ISSUE of “torture”. I mean in general from the left. Though as I stated above, I never heard a peep from the left on how the Haditha Marines were mistreated while in confinement.
Actually, WACO WAS A GROSS VIOLATION of power. No trial, just shooting, by TANKs no less. During that same time, National Guard units were given very unconstitutional orders, which we rejected, to engage in surveillance against conservative groups. I was a young E-3 at the time and we had many nights wondering what exactly was going on.
WHAT CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED by Bush? Since I gave an oath 14 years ago upon enlisting and 11 years ago upon commission, I sure as heck would love to know what infringements there have been. Since “anti-war” fanatics can visit leaders who call for our destruction without consequence and hold their little protests at will wherever they choose, I fail to see where the Constitution has been violated. The only people I see whose rights are infringed upon are military recruiters, conservatives on college campuses, and attempts to silence talk radio by the left.
You still get to say whatever you want, and though I think it is wrong, nothing will stop you so where is this “police state”?
As for this waterboarding thing, I never used it or any other technique, but I never dealt with terrorist prisoners in rear areas and probably never will as I am not MI. I do know we are not recreating scenes from SAW and hacking limbs off these people or skinning them alive. THAT is torture. If Congress believes it is “waterboarding” is torture then they should do their damned Constitutional duty and rewrite/clarify the regulations. I myself have to much other stuff to worry about in the real world making sure our troops, the Iraqis, and the Afhganis build and sustain their forces.
Abu Ghraib was a failure of training and a breakdown of command. It was not torture, it was stupidity and a shame on the US Defense Department. Soldiers and civilians there behaved like a frat house and got slammed. It is interesting to note that, when the Iraqis took over the facility a year or so ago, the AQ prisoners were begging for all the comforts (Human rights officers, medical care, clean cells, healthy food) that us “Evil Americans” gave them. Did you even know we had human rights officers?
And yes, I would LOVE for the Regan Republicans to return and tell the left exactly where to stick crushing big government, endless taxes, and the unaccountable brainwashing that is public education. Unfortunately, President Bush runs things in a ‘consensus’ building way as he did in Texas and, even though he has been betrayed by the left for every agenda item of theirs he pushed through, he still tries to make deals.
I wish a real conservative would step up and seal the boarders, cut taxes (move to a flat or consumption tax and then end personal taxes soon after), CUT government (not just reduce its growth), and actually let us defend ourselves against clear and present threats. I also wish the Part of JFK would again be the party of JFK, but that will never happen.
Wow. Fascinating.
To sum up your actual points – Move-on says bad things. Code Pink sends medicine and supplies to refugees in Fallujah. Lefties on blogs say bad things (really? And you assume they’re not just trolls?). Animal rights groups and environmental terrorists have done bad things. You seem to be a little short on details, since you have none, perhaps some links to the where on freep you read about this? I’m sorry, I thought this thread was about hyperventilating liberals not bedwetting neocons. I don’t agree with any of the actions you’ve listed (with the exception of sending medicine to Fallujah), although the details are scant, but they’re far from terrifying.
As far as Bush’s trampling of the constitution, you might want to give it a read. You’ll find that article 1 and 3, as well as amendments 1, 4, 5, 6, and 8 seem to be regarded as optional. But my guess is that you’re only concerned with amendment 2.
The only violent leftist I know who is still spitting out vitrol is doing it from your side of the aisle, but then I would assume you’re familiar with the history of David Horowitz.
ChrisG, if you still bothered, forget about him. It is just another leftist, who’s rabidly making numerous unfounded points at a time, inviting you to counter them all. These people couldn’t care less about truth since their very stance require them to lie all the time. They’ve done it in past, they will do it in future.
They say you can’t reason somebody out of something if he hasn’t been reasoned into it in the first place. just a waste your time.
BTW, the guy is saying he doesn’t know active violent leftists. Too bad he never heard of Alec Baldwin (murdering Cheney by Osama’s corpse fantasy) http://newsbusters.org/blogs/nb-staff/2007/09/14/mrc-nb-s-graham-o-reilly-factor-discuss-huffington-s-house-horrors, head of Daily Kos, Markos “screw them” Moulitsas http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=10440_Daily_Kos_Gloats_Over_Fallujah&only, Bill Maher (regretting Cheney is not assasinated) http://newsbusters.org/node/11169. They must be trolls 🙂
AlexD,
I’m not even making a stretch in any of these arguments. It’s you deluded folks who try and conflate liberals and islamofascists together using the fever dreams of freepers as “facts”.
My point is simple. We don’t need to torture. It doesn’t help (you can make them to talk, but you can’t make them tell the truth). It’s unamerican, maybe you don’t understand what I mean by that, it means we’ve always been strong enough to hold to our own moral core, even when threatened by true evil (see Nazis, etc). We’ve never done it before, and we shouldn’t do it now. All you come up with is “making terrorists cold is not torture”. Fine, but waterboarding is (and everyone agreed it was when our enemies did it 20-40 years ago) and we never had to have a discussion of “Just how much can we torture?” or even “How close can we get to torture?” until neocons with no moral core took over this country.
AlexD,
We are dealing with a projectionist and apologist who dismisses the clear and present true evil of global Islam and desires in his most fevered dreams to declare the USA evil and only the “enlightened” left can save us from “evil neocons”. He poo-poos what the left is really saying and doing, but loves to make up stuff against “neocons with no moral core”.
I have said this more than a few times. The solution to this issue is simple: Congress must do their job and define the regulations on what is and is not acceptable through the US Code, Military Commissions Act (the people we fight are given no rights under the Geneva Convention), UCMJ, the Law of Land Warfare, and CIA regulations. That is the only solution. However, it means THIS congress has to take responsibility for these actions.
Since it does not seem to get read, let me say it again. Congress must do their job and define the regulations on what is and is not acceptable through the US Code, Military Commissions Act (the people we fight are given no rights under the Geneva Convention), UCMJ, the Law of Land Warfare, and CIA regulations.
In my last response to this useful idiot, I would suggest he read up on The Terrorist Screening Center, The Patriot Act (actually READ it) and look up the FBI database on domestic terror groups (ELF and ALF are on it). I KNOW the Constitution. These rights are guaranteed and protected thoughout the intell gathering proccess. Where were these protections under Clinton? While we are at it, how about the left supporting the 9th and 10th Ammendments?
The way the intell gathering system the left calls “sping on Americans” used to work was we killed/captured a terrorist in some part of the world and if for some reason a US phone number, website, or IP address was on his cell phone or computer, that system was monitored. If you are on a terrorist’s rolodex, that should be due cause enough to see why.
http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/press_release_0246.shtm
http://www.whitehouse.gov/ask/20060309.html (this has a link to the original full Patriot Act along with a Q&A section)
If you have not seen what your compatriots are saying and writing, see http://www.zombietime.com
Good bye.
AlexD,
Grow up. Are you scared of Alec Baldwin’s violent words and Bill Maher’s jokes? Are they violent men? I’m talking about violent actions (your examples aren’t even attempting to incite violence). You don’t hear me complaining about Ann Coulter wishing right wing militiamen blowing up the NY Times building, do you? No, because getting upset about such words is idiotic.
Since you can’t find any violent lefties from the last 30 years, why don’t you just relax and go back to re-reading the Turner Diaries.
Experienced intelligence agents tell us that treating captives with respect is more effective than torture. Cookies and milk? Nice try.
NYT’s Frank Rich compares Bush, supporters to Hitler and the “good [ignorant] Germans”
Like the majority of glass-house dwelling New York Times columnists, Rich has simply lost it:
“BUSH lies†doesn’t cut it anymore. It’s time to confront the darker reality that we are lying to ourselves.
Ten days ago The Times unearthed yet anot…
Are Americans Being “Good Germans” As Anti-Torture And Other Values Fade?
Once upon a time, there was a phrase that truly was cringe wrothy. It was as trite as when someone would say (as if it was profound) “we don’t want to sit around singing Kumbaya.”
The phrase is “they’re just being Good Ge…
Rich Trying To Stay Relevant: The ‘Good Germans’ Among Us
Remember last week when I said that Frank Rich was obviously making up for the stint he did behind a pay-per-view wall that lost money? Well, he is at it again. This time with The ‘Good Germans’ Among Us.
“Ten days ago The Times unearthed yet…
Waterboarding Is Not Torture
Waterboarding is waterboarding.
Torture looks this and this .
And it often ends up like this.
For a look at what torture is like, just look at the torture manual used by our enemy.
Waterboarding is a method of interrogation that appeals to the most b…
Drawing picture of pretend torture is not a good way to spend your time.
Meanwhile…thousands of REAL pictures exist showing americans torturing arabs.