“But We Want YOU To Bake Our Wedding Cake!”

You are right Nan – and this is how the left has been able to incrementally get the laws changed…

and this is exactly HOW they are encroaching upon and basically removing our Liberties and Freedoms…little snips at a time….so we don’t ‘see it’ happening….then BOOM! Gone…

This is exactly why the Republicans don’t get anywhere..they don’t increment well…

Obama is one Supreme Court appointee away from throwing the First and Second Amendments into the trash can.

And if not Obama then Hillary or maybe Jeb Bush.

Just say no to the Washington DC Party.

@Tercel:
You make such a good point, Tercel.
A couple of days ago an actor, Jared Leto, won an award for a role he played in The Dallas Buyers Club; that of a trans-gendered woman/man.
The gay, lesbian, trans, bi and ? groups protested his award on the basis that he should not have even been given the part.
That it should only have been played by a real transgendered person.
Jared asked them a good question: should gay actors be playing straight roles?
Heh.
Boy, would there be a lot of out-of-work actors should that rule be followed!
Matt Bomer, star of the American television show White Collar plays a straight man.
Jonathan Groff, of Glee, plays a boyfriend of a girl, although being gay.
Chad Allen, Leslie Jordan, Alan Cumming, Rupert Everett, T. R. Knight.
Sean Patrick Hayes was singled out by Newsweek associate editor Ramin Setoodeh on seeing him “play straight” in the Broadway production being “weird.”
Both David Burtka and his partner Neil Patrick Harris.

I could go on, but these are only some who are KNOWN.

TERCEL
YES a very good point, solid as the best IRON ALLOYED STEEL IN THE MARKET,
THANK YOU FOR IT,

DEAR ABBY: My nephew is getting married next year. I was very excited because I love him and I’m a baker. I had planned on making the groom’s cake as I did for his brother’s and sister’s weddings. The problem is, they have decided on a hunting theme for their wedding — including a camouflage wedding dress for the bride.

Abby, I am an animal-rights activist. I’m against any form of hunting. I am also involved with several animal-protection groups. My nephew and his fiancee know how hard I work for animal rights — just the thought of a hunting theme for a wedding makes me ill.

I don’t even want to attend, let alone make a cake. What can I do so there will be no hurt feelings if I don’t want to attend or participate? — BAKER IN THE MIDWEST

DEAR BAKER: Feeling as strongly as you do about not attending, write the happy couple a warm letter wishing them a lifetime of happiness together and include a nice wedding gift — I’m sure there will be no hurt feelings.
http://news.yahoo.com/animal-lover-appalled-camouflage-wedding-050112316.html

Apparently hunters are more open to reason than you-knows.

@retire05:

Above all else, we should not be contentious.

Retire, I agree with your entire comment. I have long said that I don’t care if two women live together in a house down the street, or two men. But that doesn’t mean I have to like it. As long as they don’t fly a gay flag on a flag pole or ‘demand’ that I ‘like it’, then let them ‘do their thing’. But not if it’s illegal, pedophilia, for example. Only a man and a woman can get ‘married’. Some people really are ‘born gay’ tho I think it is much less than the numbers that are ‘living as gay’. Take as an example, the photo above on this thread, of KKK members at a black business. I think it should be made clear by the business owners that ‘the law requires that I serve you, but I can guarantee you are not going to be satisfied with my service and I have to be paid, unrefundable, in advance. I think that might discourage some of this ‘forcing’ to participate in others religions and lawlessness.

@Redteam:

I have long said that I don’t care if two women live together in a house down the street, or two men. But that doesn’t mean I have to like it.

I think most people feel that way. If it doesn’t create harm (like against children) they don’t have a problem with it. But they also don’t want to sanction behavior they consider abnormal.

. Some people really are ‘born gay’ tho

Actually, that is not correct. At least not scientifically. There has never been any discovery of a “gay” gene or any DNA marker that would indicate someone would be predisposed to be a homosexual although we have discovered DNA markers that indicate a predisposition to many diseases. The “nurture vs. nature” argument has been going on for decades and while many gay activists claim “nature”, there has never been any concrete proof of that. And while we know that people can be born predisposed to suffer from mental illnesses, it stands to reason that if some one is “born” gay, that should be an inherited trait has yet to be proven.

There was a study (quite flawed) that claimed there was a difference in the brains of gay men compared to heterosexual men. It was soundly discredited. But it is so much easier for someone to say “I was born that way” which tells society they are not responsible for what they do in our current mode of not holding anyone responsible for their actions.

@Redteam: ”Walk like a girl, lisp, talk like a girl, have mannerisms of a girl …..”

Walking like a girl is natural to women because women’s hips are quite different from men’s.
Men who want to walk like girls must work at it, there’s nothing natural in their swish.
They are fighting their own anatomy.

Lisping is NOT a feminine characteristic!
Men who chose to lisp, when they don’t have a real speech impediment, are doing so to appear more weak, which they consider feminine.

Talking like a girl is as varied as talking like a guy.
Men who put on a soft and/or high feminine voice are doing so after much practice, there’s nothing natural for them about it.

Having mannerisms of a girl again is a learned behavior.
Even girls who want to be more demure or ladylike, or more slutty and flirtatious have to practice their mannerisms.
Men, even more so.

Isn’t it ironic that homosexual men favor aping the mannerisms of such outliers as Mae West, Judy Garland, Marylin Monroe and such?
You don’t see women doing that.

@Redteam:

That may be true, but I believe that there is a spectrum and that people are somewhere along that spectrum, from 100% male to 100% female and if you happen to be a boy that is born more than the 50% point toward female, then you will have many female characteristics.

Are there men who act more feminine than masculine? Sure. But is that nature, or nurture? As to your example of “Brice and David”, excuse me, but are they not adults? So I don’t see how that is a relative example. In reference to your niece and nephew; are they siblings? Are they being raised by a single mother with no male role model? What made you think your nephew was gay at a very young age? Was he more interested in books than base ball bats?

Nature designed all species to continue and only outside influences destroy any species. We humans, just with all animal species, were designed to continue through procreation, and there still has never been any science developed where a man can impregnate another man or a woman impregnate another woman. Both genders are required for the survival of the human species. And that is not going to change. No matter how badly the activists want to claim that homosexuality is a normal human condition. Homosexuality would virtually eliminate the human species.

As to the mannerisms of certain gays, using your Charlie Brown’s Club example, those are learned mannerisms, not natural mannerisms. Drag queens have to practice long, long hours to act like they do simply because it is not natural.

As no, I do not believe, using current science, that gays are “born.” When the DNA markers are so strong that a skeleton of a human that died thousands of years ago can have their gender determined, don’t you find it odd that no marker has ever been found that would show if that skeleton was homosexual?

The gay movement has evolved. Three decades ago, gays used to put bumper stickers on their vehicles that said “God Doesn’t Make Mistakes” but with the advent of sex change surgery, and the inclusion of bisexuals and transsexuals, some who use medical mutilation to change their sex, they have ceased using that slogan. Why is that?

Because the movement is not now, nor has it ever been, about equality. It’s political, pure and simple, and the demand for “privileged” status.

@retire05:

In reference to your niece and nephew; are they siblings? Are they being raised by a single mother with no male role model? What made you think your nephew was gay at a very young age?

siblings, yes. Boy is older. Very male father, Army Ranger then County policeman, head of SWAT team. As I said, he was a girl in every way when he was born except sexual organs and that has never changed. As far as Brice and David, true they are adults, but I never practiced my speaking mannerisms and arm movements and limp wristness and I find it hard to believe that many people do, but they sure have all of it.

claim that homosexuality is a normal human

I don’t think many people, certainly not me, would claim that homosexuality is ‘normal’ but neither are hermaphrodites, but they sure exist. Even they are born as either XX or XY. I think the worst thing for a person would be to realize that they are gay, I doubt very much that any of them would have it that way if they could re-shape their lives. I believe that most gays are gay by choice, but I’m relatively sure that a gay person like my nephew had no choice in the matter. While no ‘gay’ gene has been found, there are many things still being learned about DNA, in fact some very interesting things just recently. So while I think my nephew is a ‘naturally gay’ person, that still does not mean I have to like it or endorse it. For example, if he were to have a ‘wedding’, I would not attend.

but with the advent of sex change surgery,

I don’t believe there is such a thing as ‘sex change’ surgery. There is sexual organ reassignment, but if he has XY chromosomes, he is still a male, etc.

those are learned mannerisms, not natural mannerisms.

BUT, when these mannerisms are ‘very clearly’ displayed before they are one year old, it is hard to believe they are imitating Charlie Brown. If you have never been around a baby boy that grew up to be gay, then you might not understand.

Because the movement is not now, nor has it ever been, about equality. It’s political, pure and simple, and the demand for “privileged” status.

I think, from what I’ve seen that the very active politically gays are the ‘acquired gay syndrome’ gays. I think the ‘natural’ gays, such as my nephew, is not very interested in the politics of gays, they had rather be left alone.

@Redteam:

siblings, yes. Boy is older. Very male father, Army Ranger then County policeman, head of SWAT team

So the son of a man who obviously had professions that required him to be gone from the home a great deal of the time. I am not bashing those men who are dedicated servants to the rest of us (may God bless them all), but they do not have the standard 9 to 5 job with weekends off. The children of soldiers, fire fighters, police officers and railroad engineers are basically raised by their moms. Again, the “nurture” debate.

but I never practiced my speaking mannerisms and arm movements and limp wristness and I find it hard to believe that many people do, but they sure have all of it.

But gays do. Even in many gay relationships, there is a male/female role. One lesbian will be girly, girly while the other looks like a lumberjack. Same with men. One man would be undetectable in most social settings while the other is feminine in mannerisms. Those mannerisms are acquired, Redteam, for the most part by mimicking other feminine gay men. Women don’t “swish” as it has been called. But it is difficult for a man to mimic a woman’s motions since they are not physically designed the same way.

BUT, when these mannerisms are ‘very clearly’ displayed before they are one year old, it is hard to believe they are imitating Charlie Brown. If you have never been around a baby boy that grew up to be gay, then you might not understand.

Sorry, I have to call b/s on an infant displaying homosexual tendencies. And yes, I have been around gays for the last 30 years since I was one of the first volunteers at the AIDS hospital that (now closed) was in Houston. Seeing the misery of those patients, how their families rejected them, how they were ostracized in many cases, made me want to know why anyone would “choose” that life style. I can honestly say that in 90% of the cases, there was an emotional crisis in their lives that could have steered them that way. Many had been abused as children by someone of the same sex (Stockholm Syndrome). People, when critically ill and dying, will bare their souls to a compassionate listener. All any of us want is to be loved by someone. And yes, I have watched an infant, up close and personal, that grew up to be gay, and no, it was not obvious at the age of one year.

@retire05:I have a lot of preconceived notions also, and like you, have always been convinced that people were gay because they want to be, and I still believe that in most cases, but the more I read of studies, the more I am convinced that mother nature has to be involved. Even something as simple as spelling.

Talent cannot be compared with nature’s design for procreation.

My wife is very ‘smart’ can do almost anything, but cannot spell. Even the same words misspelled over and over. I can spell everything, never miss, even if I’ve never seen the word before. It sure is not because she doesn’t ‘want’ to be able to spell or hasn’t worked at it, she just can’t.
In that link I posted above, it tells of a study of pheromones, it is very interesting. That article says that homosexuality is most likely caused by events in the womb.

What you call “aptitude” is nothing more than simple talent.

I don’t believe that at all. If you’re saying that every man has the same ‘talent’ for mechanical things, some just aren’t interested so they don’t develop it. I can’t agree with that. A mechanical aptitude test does not measure your developed ‘talent’ for mechanical things, it measures your ‘talent’, as you would put it, for a base to develop something on. If that test shows you don’t have a talent for it, you are wasting your time if you get a mechanical job. If, it is only talent, not aptitude, why do some people have a talent and some don’t? That wouldn’t likely be genetic.
I found it interesting that ‘arousal’ in homosexual men and heterosexual women were raised by testosterone pheromones. But ‘arousal’ in heterosexual men was raised by estrogen pheromones.

Redteam
are you insinuate that i can”t spell?
ARE YOU?
WELL MAYBE YOU’RE RIGHT SOMETIMES,

@retire05:

I don’t know of any mechanical geniuses that have come out of the outback.

Surely you’ve heard of George Washington Carver.

You have been hanging around with RJW too long.

You keep saying things like that and I’m gonna accuse you of trying to be funny.

But if a child has a talent that is not developed, he/she will never fully realize the total potential of that talent. You have a talent for things mechanical. That requires a basic knowledge of math, the whole 2 + 2 = 4 concept.

Are you saying all PERSONS have the same talent and some just develop it and some don’t? If it’s not developed, how do you know they ever had it? I’m saying that I had an aptitude for mechanics and it was measurable and I use it daily. I don’t know if that was just a developed talent or not. I do know that some people can’t change a light bulb, even after being shown how. I can hardly believe that is just due to a lack of a developed talent. So it gets back to the basic question, are all males born exactly with all the same ‘talents’ or do some have some talents that others don’t? If so, why can’t sexuality be on the same scale? Some have some attributes and some don’t.

The problem with an Wikipedia article is that the person who wrote it does not assign their name to the article and enters it anonymously. I prefer articles that the person takes the credit, or the hit, for owning up to their own work.

As you well know, Wiki doesn’t allow author’s to identify themselves, but I wasn’t going into the reputation of the author, only the content of the article. I, or you, don’t identify ourselves on this blog but it does not mean that what I write is not true. For example, a reference to a study where it was determined that homosexual men and heterosexual women are both ‘excited’ by the same testosterone pheromones and heterosexual men are ‘excited’ by estrogen pheromones makes perfect sense to me and I will look that study up to see if it is reputable. I don’t discount statements ‘just because’ they are on Wiki, but I usually further validate them with other data. Most of the time, they are ok. I will read the article(study) that you linked and comment on it.
I will say that I have always thought gays were gay by choice, but age and experience have partially changed my mind on that. I do believe that most of the ‘gay activism’ is by ‘gays by choice’, not persons that I consider, born gay.

Retire, I read the article, which I pasted pieces below with my comments. I don’t think it makes your case, or the author’s case. He made some statements, which I will comment on that just don’t make sense.

American Thinker
December 13, 2013

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December 24, 2012
Yes, gay is a choice. Get over it.
By Robert Oscar Lopez
He said:
According to Peter Schmidt in the Chronicle of Higher Education, yet another individual working in higher education has been demolished for saying the wrong thing about homosexuality. The basis on which to define people as “anti-gay” has, however, taken a turn to the absurd (and eerie).

Unlike Angela McCaskill, who was nearly fired from Gallaudet University for signing a petition on gay marriage, Crystal Dixon of the University of Toledo was fired for writing an editorial in a local newspaper. She referred to Exodus and mentioned people who chose to leave the gay lifestyle.

For this column I will stick to the gay male angle, since I have but 1,200 words. Even if we accepted, for argument’s sake (which I do not accept), that McCaskill was “anti-gay” because she signed a petition, the case against Dixon is based purely on wild assumptions about sex.

To fire Dixon, one must accept that gay men cannot stop themselves from having anal sex or engaging in fellatio. Without anal sex or fellatio, it would seem that a gay couple is tough to distinguish from roommates who like to kiss each other once in a while.

I said:
This argument I don’t buy at all. Whether a person can or can not stop themselves from a particular sex act has nothing to do with their inherent sexuality. Many couples live together their entire lives without having sex, either gay or straight. Many couples(men and women) will have sex for a few years then go the rest of their lives without it, that does not mean they stop being a male or female. It just means they didn’t have any desire any longer. I believe some same sex couples live together for convenience, not for sexual liaisons. I do not see how using the terms ‘anal’ or ‘fellatio’ are peculiar to gays. Seems as if both sex’s are capable.

He said:

These assumptions bestialize and infantilize gay men. While I have tired of penning editorials about gay controversies, the situation is dire. I feel compelled to write a column once again emphasizing a basic reality: gay sex is a choice. Nobody lacks the power to refrain from having gay sex. Get. Over. It.

I said:
Completely non-sensical, Nobody lacks the power to refrain from having any sex. Gay has nothing to do with it. If you use his argument, you would have to say that people that refrain from having straight sex are no longer straight, it was just a choice.

He said:

Dixon said that gays had the choice to leave the lifestyle (in other words, stop engaging in anal sex and fellatio). According to her detractors, such was tantamount to being anti-gay. Her detractors are following the lead of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which lists “conversion therapy” as a hate crime.

No comment

Scroll through the comments section of any article about these issues. You will see a roll call of gays and pro-gay supporters, issuing confident testimonials that nobody has ever changed from gay to straight. (It’s fine to change from straight to gay, according to these tribunes, because that’s simply coming out of the closet.)

I said:
What is this argument about? Sexual acts? Reading from above, it seems as if you believe it, a person that engages in a sex act with a person of the same sex is gay. I don’t buy that argument at all. I think they might do that just because they want to not because of their innate sexuality. I see movies all the time, and if some of them represent reality, many people engage in sex acts for a reason that is totally unrelated to sex. For money, for a favor, to get ahead, to please someone, etc. Sometimes a man and wife want a threesome and it would end up with either two men and a woman or two women and a man and usually the two of the same have some activities together, but I don’t think that would make either a ‘gay’.

He said:

They allude, at various times, to Simon LeVay’s 1991 brain study or problematic decades-old research into identical twins, if not warped evolutionary logic from ideologues like David Barash or anecdotes about someone they know. The research has spoken! Anyone who says you can change your sexuality is a lying, right-wing bigot! To which I say the following:

Does anybody who uses the term LGBT remember the “B” in that God-forsaken acronym? Hello? There are bisexuals. I am one of them. Why include us in these categories if you think we don’t exist?

I said:
It’s hard to believe that someone genuinely thinks you can be Bi and think that it is not a choice and believe that gay is a choice.

He said:

Dating and marriage don’t magically happen, like going to the bathroom or breathing. They take conscious choices — where do you hang out? What are you looking for? What type of partner shares your goals? Whether to hang out in gay clubs or straight clubs makes a huge difference; these are completely different cultures. We choose the life we want to live (or leave, for that matter).

I said:
Don’t believe that at all. If I ever wandered into a gay bar, I would exit in a hurry. But that would not be a ‘choice’, it would be a natural inclination. Straight people don’t hang out in gay bars. I’m not saying they won’t go in one, but ‘hang out’, no way. If you’re not gay, either by choice or nature, you’re not gonna be hanging there. Getting married is a conscious choice. When I met the right woman, we got married. I never even considered that some ‘guy’ might have been the right person.

He said:

Even gay men still choose which sex acts they commit. I hate to admit this, but I worked as a housekeeper in a gay sex club in Manhattan in the early 1990s, when I was desperate for work. I witnessed, literally, thousands of men having sex in the open, with me having to go clean up after them. Very rarely (thank the Lord) did they engage in anal sex.

I said:
Everybody chooses which sex acts they engage in. If I want to do something and my wife DOES NOT, we don’t. In that case, she chose, I didn’t.

He said:

I have known, personally, scores of gay male couples that barely have any sex at all after they have been together for a while. (They start preferring Monday Night Football and hitting the sack early.) A large portion of the sex club patrons came to watch and then went home. If “Gs” can choose what kind of sex to have, they can also choose not to have sex at all. It’s a choice.

I said:
How is that different from straight people? I know of some straight couples that don’t have sex, at least not with each other. If a straight couple stops having sex, does that mean they are no longer straight?

He said:

In the lurid job I held in a Manhattan sex club, I learned some other things as well. Many men get involved in the gay scene for unexpected reasons. Many of them want fast and inexpensive sex, sometimes because they have trouble with women. They can go to a bathhouse or a cruising zone and pick up men without paying the fortune they’d have to spend on a prostitute.

Moreover, a lot of times I saw people who were addicted to drugs and addicted to anonymous sex; the two compulsions were linked somehow, and there was no way for such people to quit their addictionwithout quitting their homosexuality. These folks often ended up on the AA circuit or joining a church and getting baptized.

I said:
This is only an anecdote that could just as well apply to straight people. Has nothing to do with ‘sexuality’.

He said:

Lastly, a lot of men came to the gay sex scene in order to engage in bondage and sadomasochism, because they were raped as boys. The aftereffects of sexual assault, as we know from studying female rape victims, are complicated and often lead people to repeat or recreate the assault scene. Many of these mentally scarred men did not even have sex in sex clubs, even though they sought male partners to enact their eroticized simulations.

I said:
I don’t believe he cited any study to prove these contentions and I feel they are totally bogus and made up. I don’t think a raped man or woman wants to be raped again just to ‘re-create’ the scene.

He said:

Lastly, straight men do not magically reach puberty with a fully functional sex life because of their nature. They struggle with impotence, might be late bloomers, get embarrassingly aroused in all-male environments occasionally, and sometimes can’t find women they are attracted to. To address these issues, many men in relationships with women have to work through their difficulties by talking things over with someone else, who might be a chaplain or even a counselor. Are they all gay? No!

I said:
Total BS. First, I’m a male, and I reached puberty with a fully functional sex life. I didn’t have any questions or struggles about who I wanted to have sex with. Can’t find a woman they are attracted to? baloney, my problem was I found too many women that were perfect. No study is cited for these contentions and they don’t even make good sense. Just because some men and some women have sexual dysfunctions that they need counseling for is not a measure of gayness.

He said:

Lastly, I am left with my own life story. I can’t change it. I went from being in the gay lifestyle to marrying a woman, having a daughter, and living a happy heterosexual life.

Consider the difference that twenty years make. Twenty years ago, I had never been with a woman, but I had had relations with quite a few men. Virtually all of my friends were gays, lesbians, or women who enjoyed gay company. I found girls pretty, but I was scared of them. Most of them were not attracted to me because I was effeminate.

Now I am twelve years into a happy and faithful marriage to a woman. I sinned at different times, but talking things over with people helped me overcome my harmful behavior. I begged God for forgiveness. You couldn’t pay me to have sex with a man at this point in my life. I don’t feel the urge — maybe because I’m in my forties and one calms down in middle age, or maybe because it just wasn’t right for me all along.

There’s no point in obsessing over my sexual ontology, never mind obsessing over other people’s. I have to tend to the garden out back, as Voltaire would say in Candide. We have better things to do with our time — especially “gay men,” who have chosen to go into a dating scene that’s small, often incestuous, vulnerable to disease, and sometimes cold. If that’s what they want, I salute them and wish them the best. If they want something else in life, I won’t judge them for it.

I said:
This only points out that he is one of those that chose to be gay for reasons that suited him. It bears no relationship to those that do not go into gayness because they chose to but were created that way in the womb. His experiences are good stories to tell why he chose to be gay, but it does absolutely nothing to show that some people are gay because they were born that way. It neither proves nor disproves that.

He said:

Crystal Dixon pointed out something that no amount of peer-reviewed research can disprove. Gay is not the new black. “Gay” is about sex and genitalia. People we call “gay” make choices about what they do with their genitals; blacks do not make choices about the color of their skin. Period. If one is going to fire Crystal Dixon for harming gay men by reminding all of us that no penis is beyond the executive decisions of its owner, then one might as well fire all the humanities professors in the United States (starting with me), because it seems that millennia of human civilization do not count, and the most advanced nation in the world now expects men to live like rutting, uncontrolled animals.

I said:
I’m afraid this proves the opposite point of what they are trying to make. If gay is about sex and genitalia, then how is it possible to be a hermaphrodite? Your theory is ‘one way or the other’, well, which is the hermaphrodite? Do all people have curly hair? Even those that have curly hair, are they all the same amount of ‘curly’? Is there a gene that controls how curly hair is? Are all blue eyes the same shade of blue? Is there a gene that controls the level of blueness? Is everyone the same height? Is there a gene that controls height? If there can be a variation in every part of a human body, why can’t there be a level in sexuality in that same body? There are studies that show that the way blood circulates in your brain has an influence of whether you are right or left handed, so that even identical twins can be left or right handed. Does that mean they are not ‘identical’ even though their DNA says they are?

He said:

In short, it’s time for gay rights activists to get off their high horses and let other people live.

I said:
no comment
Robert Oscar Lopez is the author of three new books based on his time in the gay lifestyle, to be published by the owner of the Runaway Pen in 2013.

Retire, here is an article on pedophilia. Seems reasonable to me.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/08/what-can-be-done-about-pedophilia/279024/

@retire05:

Re-read what he said. He did not say raped “men”; he said raped as boys. Do you deny there is a mental condition known as Stockholm Syndrome? As to the study:

I don’t believe a boy, man, or woman that has been raped wants to be raped again to re-create the experience. Do you?

What? Are you claiming that pre-Civil War South resembled the wilds of the Australian Outback and the lives of slaves were similar to the aborigines of Australia? Really, Redteam?

first, I didn’t say ‘pre-Civil War South’. But I did say that I do not believe that the likelihood of a black person coming out of a civil war time South would have an advantage on an Aborigine. So I’m saying it would be more likely for an aborigine of today’s times to have shown mechanical ability than George Washington Carver’s chances.

Are you saying you don’t know if there have been any scientific studies to prove/disprove that children are predisposed to having the same talents as their parents/ancestors?

Actually, just the opposite. Are you saying whether those predispositions can cross sexualities? Can a boy have the predisposition of his mother? I know for sure that I inherited my father’s mechanical ability and my mother’s math abilities, there’s no other way to account for it. There have been many interesting studies of what can be inherited, memory for example. That doesn’t seem to be reasonable, but it most likely is true. Is there a gene that gave me my mother’s ability or my father’s ability? I don’t think so. So if I can inherent many things from them without a gene, why can’t sexuality be inherited without a gene? Why does only sexuality require a gene to determine actions and other talents, desires, abilities, etc, don’t? Some proclivities seem to be mostly a result of how a brain is wired. That seems to be the concensus on pedophilia, and most likely homosexuality. As I said, I am sure pedophilia, a sexual leaning, is the result of being born that way, I don’t think anyone has been shown to have become a pedophile by choice, that being a very much less desired trait than homosexuality would be.

@retire05:

” The south of civil war times

which is different than ‘pre’ civil war times. I intentionally didn’t say pre because I think Carver was born ‘during’ the civil war.

You are trying to compare apples (1865 Southern black) to oranges (2014 aborigine) when Australia has made great strides in educating its aborigines in the last 150 years.

and that is my point, that there is much more likelihood that an aborigine of today would be much more likely to have developed his mechanical aptitude today than a civil war times black from the south. The whole point was that Carver was much more likely to have had Natural mechanical aptitude than to have just developed it because of the times. It wouldn’t be fair to compare todays aborigines because they have the advantage of modern schooling, etc to teach it to them.

Your opinion is not a scientific study that affirms talent is inherited.

I didn’t state or claim that it was a scientific study. I said it is obvious.

So if we can discover a talent “gene”, then why has no one been able to isolate the gay “gene?”

when did we discover a talent gene? I suspect when or if we do find one, it will be in the same area that the gay gene is. As I said, I don’t think blue eyes are a gene, but there are various shades, so if you don’t have to have a gene to have a variation, then why can’t sexuality be variable without a gene also?

First you say you inherited your father’s mechanical ability and your mother’s math abilities (a genetic predisposition) but then you say you didn’t inherit those genes (also a factor for genetic pre dispostions). Are you saying that inherited traits are not genetic or that they are?

I did not state that there is a mechanical aptitude gene, not a blue eye gene. Whether something has to have a dedicated gene to be genetic is something I have no knowledge of. I do know that some diseases are claimed to be hereditary, but i’ve never heard of an asthma gene or a leukemia gene, so, as I said, I’m not sure if everything thing requires a dedicated gene. I suspect they do not. For example, if I have a memory from an experience my ancestor had, I don’t believe that one dedicated gene would be required for that memory.

Then why is it listed in DSM-5 as a mental disorder?

Are you implying that mental disorders can’t be inherited? Why? because there is no ‘mental disorder gene’? All studies I’ve read about seem to indicate that mental disorders, which include rapists, pedophiles, homosexuality, serial murderers, etc are in the wiring of their brains. That article I linked, indicated that pedophilia is not a crime, but acting on pedophilia is, and studies have indicated that many are capable of resisting acting on deviations. That would include homosexuals.

@Redteam:

I did not state that there is a mechanical aptitude gene, not a blue eye gene

Ah, but there is a blue eye gene.

http://www.sewanee.edu/chem/Chem&Art/Detail_Pages/ColorProjects_2003/Guttery/index.htm

It was your genes that determined the color of your eyes, the color of your hair, how tall you will be, if you will have a propensity toward being thin or over weight, etc. But since I am not a geneticist, I cannot explain to you how the gene pool (from both parents) works. I doubt you can either.

I do believe that the “nurture” aspect of our personalities often plays a greater importance in what we become than “nature.” Gang bangers are not born.

So again, we find something we disagree on. You can accept that gays are born, due to your experience with your nephew. I disagree, based on my years working with HIV/AIDS patients and hearing their life stories, many who were molested as young children by a member of the same sex, many who were raised in a fatherless household, many who were not considered good looking/smart/talented/athletic and were rejected by others; almost all of them wounded emotionally at some point in their young lives. I remember being told more than once, when asking why they got involved in the gay scene “Because I was accepted.” One constant in the homosexual community is that you can be as kinky as you want, and be open about it, and you will not be rejected by others in that community. Why do you think NAMBLA exists? Do you think that the heterosexual community would accept that?

Perhaps some day there will be scientific proof that people are born homosexual. Until there is, I will continue to dispute that claim knowing the politics behind it.

@retire05:

It was your genes that determined the color of your eyes, the color of your hair, how tall you will be, if you will have a propensity toward being thin or over weight, etc. But since I am not a geneticist, I cannot explain to you how the gene pool (from both parents) works. I doubt you can either.

I checked out your link, there are some really good info on eye color genetics there:
But don’t you consider it strange that every little detail of the human body is determined by all those alleles and it takes 3 pairs of chromosomes just to determine eye color and even then the amount of melamin in the skin will also have a effect on the shade of the eye color. I have blue eyes, which apparently is the hardest to have since all alleles have to be blue, if you have brown or blue eyes, only one allele has to be brown or green. So absolutely nothing is left to chance on eye color, but a person’s sexuality is all a toss up? God didn’t include any provisions for determining a persons sexual traits other than to let them make a choice after they were born? That seems strange. I’m reading up more on gene’s and genetics, it’s an interesting subject. Some of the items mentioned, weight for example is not considered to be genetic, but environmental, as are some other traits. Many traits are believed to be due to wiring in brain, for example left handedness. I think that the field of genetics in very much in infancy and millions of things will be learned in the future that are not now known.

I do believe that the “nurture” aspect of our personalities often plays a greater importance in what we become than “nature.” Gang bangers are not born.

I agree with that, but serial killers are born as are, I believe pedophiles.

So again, we find something we disagree on. You can accept that gays are born, due to your experience with your nephew. I disagree, based on my years working with HIV/AIDS patients and hearing their life stories,

Maybe only 50% disagreement, because I do believe that the majority of gays are by choice, due to their circumstances. Perhaps 5% of gays, I believe, are born that way. That % is only a guess. I was watching a movie about Alexander (the Great) recently where those guys would go into battles and leave home and be gone for 9 years. Almost all of those guys had homosexual experiences because it was either that or no sex. I’m sure some of them figured out that it served their basic needs and continued in those activities even after returning home. Those seem to be gay by choice (due to circumstances). But that does not account for the ones that want to play with girls beginning at age one and prefer the same things that normal girls do, boys, for example. In case it was due to males hanging out with only males, the other males hanging out with girls.
I can not, for the life of me, understand why a young boy being raped by a man would want to ‘re-create’ that event and that it would make him prefer gay sex. Seems as if it would create a hatred of men.
I do notice in your description of your experience, that it seems that all of the HIV/Aids victims were living the gay lifestyle, which, to me, puts them in the ‘gay by choice’ camp. I don’t think most gays, by birth, are all that involved in the gay life style, most of them live sedate lives as most people do.

@retire05:

that I came to the conclusion I now hold and that is that people born with a free will,

I’m not sure people are born with a ‘free will’. Do you think a person born left handed can choose to be right handed? From all I’ve seen about that, his brain is ‘wired’ that way. Do I think a left handed person ‘can choose’ to become right handed? Certainly, but they will never feel natural with it. If that same person were born gay, could they choose to become straight? Yes they could choose to, but it would never be any more natural to them than the left handed person using a right hand. As I asked you, and you didn’t answer, if a straight person chooses to refrain from straight sex, does that prove they were choosing to be straight and were not born that way? I would think that would apply to gay persons also. I think that, unlike you, I’m not going to change my mind back to my original way of thinking because the personal evidence is just too strong that some persons had no choice. I do believe that about 90-95% of persons that we see as gay are that way because they want you to see them that way. The other 5-10% don’t make a big deal of it.

Can you understand how someone would suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, holding fond feelings for their captors? No, and neither can I, but that doesn’t mean that Stockholm Syndrome does not exist.

Totally different situation, Patty Hearst was one of best known cases. She was not in an abusive situation, she had a sexual relationship that apparently she enjoyed that did not consist of being raped against her will. That relationship grew over time and was not a one time rape situation.

Where did I say that? Or do you think that only those who were “living” (as in openly) the gay life style wound up at the AIDS hospital?

Here in your comment just above:

I disagree, based on my years working with HIV/AIDS patients and hearing their life stories, many who were molested as young children by a member of the same sex, many who were raised in a fatherless household, many who were not considered good looking/smart/talented/athletic and were rejected by others; almost all of them wounded emotionally at some point in their young lives. I remember being told more than once, when asking why they got involved in the gay scene “Because I was accepted.” One constant in the homosexual community is that you can be as kinky as you want, and be open about it, and you will not be rejected by others in that community.

Was Ryan White living the gay life style?

Who is Ryan White?

Perhaps you need to define what you consider a “gay” life style. Most gays, in this age, are in the open,

That would be a good definition: ‘are in the open’. Yes, MOST are, about 5% aren’t. The 5% is the born gay ones.

For one thing, infidelity, while frowned on by most heterosexuals, is widely accepted by the homosexual community.

I don’t think ‘infidelity’ is a good measure of sexuality. I’m sure you’ve heard of JFK, he sure didn’t have any ‘fidelity’ standards. (Well, he may have, but not desirable ones) I could name many more.

Here is a suggestion, Redteam; find your local AIDS Society and volunteer if you want to learn more than you seem to know.

Luckily we don’t have a AIDS Society near me, not that many cases (I am in Louisiana) but I’m sure that I can find all I want to know from reading about the subjects. I don’t see where working, basically, with openly gays would teach me much about the gays that don’t live the life style openly. Tell me how you think that working with persons that told you that they chose to live as gays has any relationship to gays that were ‘born that way’ and did not choose to live an openly gay life style and did not care to share their experiences with you? I have never asked any person if they chose to be gay or straight, it’s not really any of my business.

@Redteam:

Retire, I went and read about Ryan White. I don’t think his case is germane.

I was simply trying to point out to you that volunteering in an AIDS hospital did not mean that all my patients were gay. They were not all gay.

Just curious, did any of those persons tell you that they ‘didn’t choose’ to be gay?

#1, I never asked why they were gay. If the conversation came up, it was because the patient brought it up. So the answer to your question would be “No.”

Back then, the “born gay” meme had not been pushed out into the public awareness via media, gay rights movements, etc. Actually, back then, homosexuality was being pushed as a personal choice that the government had no right to interfere in, no more than it had a right to block any other personal choices. The “born gay” claim came after the movement turned highly political and started claiming it was a civil rights issue just as the movement of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a civil rights movement. All of that was fueled by the Gay Liberation Movement that originated in California.

@retire05

: #1, I never asked why they were gay. If the conversation came up, it was because the patient brought it up. So the answer to your question would be “No.”

I only asked because you said several of them said why they lived the gay life. I wouldn’t have expected you to ask them the question, I don’t think I would unless they brought it up.

I agree with your summation above, that’s pretty much as I recall it also.. I don’t think I had ever given it much thought until a few years ago, I guess when they started making an issue of it. I think that at that time I thought basically all people were born the way they are and some later chose to be gay. Most gays I have known were definitely by choice. My wife has a first cousin that I’m sure was ‘straight’ until he moved to a different town and went to work. A guy he was paired up with at work was an openly gay guy. Her cousin had some experiences with that guy. He later joined the Navy and had some gay experiences. He got out of the Navy and got married, to a woman and lived a completely straight life for several years, even having a child. He died at about 50 years of age from AIDS, acquired during his gay years. Was he born gay, straight, bi? If I were guessing, I’d say straight and chose to be gay. But from my wife’s description of his early life, there was no femininity about him at all. Nothing to say he was gay. Unlike other nephew, who was feminine (gay) in every way from birth.
The jury is still out, and I don’t believe all the answers will be in for some time. I don’t personally care, as I’ve said as long as person live quiet, undisturbing lives, but if they want me to HAVE TO ACCEPT their gay life style, they are barking up the wrong tree. I won’t ‘accept’ it but I will endure them.

Redteam
thank you, if what we see in UKRAINE, would happen over here,
WE WOULD BE SO SURPRISE TO GIVE THEM lots of time to kill some citizens,
because its inconceiveble that it would happen,
BYE

Redteam
YES, IT’S SO TIME CONSUMING TO REPAIR THE WRONGS DONE TO A PEOPLE,
BY LEADER WITH A CORRUPT MIND, WHO CLING TO POWER,
WHILE THE WRONG DONE LINGER ON, FOR A LOT MORE TIME THAN THE REPAIR JOB DO,
BYE