Let’s look at the Martin/Zimmerman timeline.
First we have to audio clip that Mata provided for us.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw[/youtube]
And the transcript is here
The official audio can be downloaded here.
To begin with, Zimmerman is in his vehicle (1) as he speaks with the dispatcher. At 0:56 of the clip
“That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the- he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
“Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
It does sound as though Martin (2) is walking in a direction away from the clubhouse, toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman says Martin is near the clubhouse, but Zimmerman does not say that he is near the clubhouse. The clubhouse is near the main entrance on Oregon St.
Zimmerman expressed concern that Martin might be carrying something as he approaches:
“He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something’s wrong with him. Yep. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Send officers over here.”
Zimmerman begins to give instructions as to his location when Martin begins to run and Zimmerman exclaims
“Shit, he’s running.”
At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:
“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
Zimmerman says “OK” and the rustling ends at 2:42.
At 2:38 Zimmerman says “He ran” and apparently lost sight of Martin. Martin apparently escaped.
Zimmerman remains on the phone with the dispatcher until at least 4:12. During that time he describes his location and directs the dispatcher to the location of his parked car.
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
That puts Zimmerman’s vehicle on Twin Trees Lane. According to one report, near the bend. Martin apparently fled in between the 28 and 12 buildings toward his father’s girlfriend’s place, located near the back entrance of Twin Lakes. It is the direction Zimmerman described.
Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Zimmerman: “Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”
Zimmerman’s phone call was received at 7:11:12. At 2:42 on the audio, Zimmerman stopped running and lost sight of Martin. That puts it at 7:13:54 or so. Zimmerman continues to speak to the dispatcher until at least 4:12 of the audio, or 7:15:24. It’s reported that the phone call to Brandy Green ended at 7:16. The fight and shooting took place between then and when the police arrived at 7:17.
This is the point the gaps exist.
Zimmerman is reportedly parked on Twin Trees Lane. He says Martin is coming toward him, and then he says Martin runs. Zimmerman says that Martin runs “towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”(3) That is SE of Zimmerman’s position and it is in the direction of the home of Martin’s girlfriend. (4) Zimmerman begins chase, but then stands down when it was requested he do so and he apparently loses sight of Martin. The question is, which way did Martin run? If he ran down Twin Trees avoiding Zimmerman (5), Zimmerman could keep him in sight for some time. That would put Martin some distance from where the altercation occurred- in between 1321 and 2821, as described in the police report. (6) Martin was initially placed near the clubhouse. If he reversed course, say to head up to Retreat Circle (7), then Zimmerman would not have described him running toward the back entrance on South Oregon. If Martin ran toward the area in between buildings 28 and 12 passing near Zimmerman’s car and then turning the corner, Zimmerman would lose sight of him quickly.
This is all of significance because there was less than a minute in between the time Zimmerman ended the call to the police and the beginning of the altercation as the phone call from Martin to Green is said to have ended at 7:16 and Zimmerman was speaking to the dispatcher until 7:15:24. That’s about 30 seconds for Martin and Zimmerman to come together.
Zimmerman had no idea to where Martin was headed. Zimmerman did not catch Martin while Zimmerman was on the phone and Martin had a head start even if he only “walked fast” he still could outpace Zimmerman. Yet somehow they could not have been farther apart than about 30 seconds closure.
Then we come to some other questions. If Zimmerman was “hunting down” Martin as some have opined, why did he not simply shoot Martin upon encountering him? Why would Zimmerman get so close to Martin that Martin could punch Zimmerman in the face and knock him down if his intention was to kill Martin? (BTW, ABC News has had an epiphany. It has decided that George Zimmerman had injuries after all) Would a person bent on murder allow himself to be assaulted and still expect that he could reach and fire his gun? If Zimmerman was brandishing a gun what could possess Martin to attack him? No reasonable person is going to charge someone aiming a gun at one. Zimmerman agreed to meet with the police as they arrived. Why would he agree to meet them and then chase after Martin to kill him? Why would someone bent on murder hold Martin at gunpoint while he screamed for 40 seconds? Because he wanted witnesses to the murder? Why didn’t Zimmerman run if murder was the goal?
None of this makes any sense.
Now let’s consider what probably happened. Back to the NY Times
Soon, callers to 911 were describing the presence of police officers, and the beams of flashlights gliding over a section of grass a few dozen yards from Trayvon’s destination, where a boy inside was waiting for Skittles.
A few dozen yards. A few is about 3. Three dozen yards. 36-40 yards. 120 feet. George Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon Martin at 2:38 of the call, or about 7:13:50. Martin has until 7:16 to cover the “few dozen yards” to make it to the safety of Brandy Green’s residence. Zimmerman remains on the phone until 7:15:24. Martin’s girlfriend said the phone call went “dead” at 7:16, but Martin and Zimmerman were already exchanging words. According to Martin’s girlfriend, the conversation was initiated by Martin. The window between the end of Zimmerman’s call to the SPD and the meeting is brief. Really brief.
Martin had over two minutes to reach Green residence. Why didn’t he go there? This suggests strongly that Martin did not go to the Green residence, but instead hid somewhere, waiting for Zimmerman, and then confronted Zimmerman. Martin spoke first to Zimmerman, not the other way around. I think Martin approached Zimmerman’s car from the direction of the clubhouse, passed the car and then bolted. Martin then rounded the corner and hid. Zimmerman pursued until being asked to stop but lost Martin. As Zimmerman turned to head back to his car, Martin came out of hiding and confronted Zimmerman. The rest is history.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
@MataHarley:
Zimmerman did not make a 911 call. He called a non-emergency line.
Here is the problem with the sauntering theory. Even at a strolling pace (30 minute miles) a person can cover 350 feet in the 2 minutes before Martin was reported to be running. So try to push him back in 350 feet, and where would he be?
If you start with a fantasy that Martin was returning from the store and Zimmerman targeted him because he was black and wearing a hoodie, then you have to figure that Zimmerman was parked and Martin sauntered into sight after he had called police.
If you assume that Zimmerman was suspicious because Martin was meandering around, and that he was simply responding to the dispatcher’s question about the race of the person, and what he was wearing, then you don’t have to have Martin making much progress.
Zimmerman didn’t report Martin as coming toward him until 58 seconds into the call. If he was sauntering, he would have been coming toward him before. More likely Martin who had just been wandering around, now was moving toward Zimmerman. It was then that the dispatcher actually created the log entry, though he may have typed some of it in, and it was also about then that the first officer was dispatched. The dispatcher told Zimmerman to just let me know if Martin does anything.
If the dispatcher wanted Zimmerman to roll down the window and civilly ask Martin if he were a resident of the ‘hood, he would have told him to do so. Instead he dispatched an officer, and told him to let him know if Martin “did anything”.
It would mean that his speed during that time was a pace of about 15-minute miles. A walking pace. It would mean that he stopped his movement (did not follow) for 1-1/2 minutes at the end of his call. He may have walked through to Retreat View Circle to get the street address there after the phone call ended. He had promised to tell the officer where he was at, and a street address would be more useful.
Dispatcher told Zimmerman that the police did not need them to follow Martin. Zimmerman said OK, and his movement slowed and then stopped for 1-1/2 minutes of the rest of the call. Martin need not have been hiding in waiting to pounce.
Martin’s girlfriend hears what sounds like a shove that causes the call to be disconnected; and then does what? She had been on the phone for 6 hours with Martin that day.
jimrtex, why “assume” or fantasize anything? Use the approx times using the YouTube call, and translate them into the Sanford PD call log times.
We don’t know the distance between Martin and Zimmerman, or exact locations when he was spotted. It could be 220′ placing Martin east of the pool on the road. Farther if he was closer to the gate/intersection.
As I said, a fitness walker does about 5-5.8′ per second. A casual or cautious walk (2-3′ per second) would take 1’13” to 1’50” to reach the car.
The time log gap is 1’14 seconds. No one knows which way Martin ran, if he got to the car, or passed the car. No one knows except Zimmerman and Martin. One isn’t alive to contradict the story of the other.
If Martin ran past Zimmerman, he has no reason to walk to the end of the path because he can see if Martin turns right at the tee in the path. Aerials show street lights right near where Zimmerman’s car was parked.
Since Zimmerman made no mention of Martin passing him, why would the dispatcher suggest Zimmerman roll down his window? In fact, if he did walk by, as drj thinks, and then head for the hills, one would think Zimmerman would mention that detail specifically. He doesn’t need to be told to ask a question to someone passing him by.
Countdown from Martin’s run/walk fast retreat? Four minutes of movements, somewhere, by both, until confrontation.
Nothing in the audio that indicates Zimmerman is following him in a moving car. Regardless of Zimmerman’s walking pace, he still is only 33 seconds away from his SUV to finish his phone call… and two minutes countdown until altercation.
The dispatcher most certainly didn’t direct him to follow Martin. The “let us know if he does anything else” comment you mention? That was 1’26’ in to the call, when Zimmerman said Martin had something in his hand. Obviously, that was a request for Zimmerman to let them know if Martin pulled out, for example, a weapon… not an invitation to follow. That comment was, in fact, prior to Zimmerman telling them that he started to run, which happened about 40 seconds later.
Zimmerman only needed to tell the dispatcher where his car was parked on Twin Trees Lane (he already did in the beginning) and wait at the car. He certainly had plenty of time to do that in the two minutes after he hung up. The fact that he wanted the LEO to call him so he could tell them where he was indicates he had no intention of returning to the car, and would continue hunting for Martin. Intention is a factor to consider.
If Martin rounded the block, and Zimmerman decided to go due east on that path, he was trying to head Martin off at the pass… not get an address 265′ away from his car.
It comes down to this:
We don’t know what path Martin took.
Nor have we seen an affidavit of Zimmerman’s detailed account.
We know nothing.
Therefore there’s been nine threads, hundreds of comments solely designed to “exonerate” Zimmerman and debase Martin as a thug, based on … nothing, zip, nada facts.
huh? Do you have a point here? .
Do you think a young black teen wants to call long distance to the Sanford police to run to the aid of her boyfriend, more than 100 miles away? After all, if she dials 911, she’s going to get her local dispatchers… not Sanford, FL’s.
I’m somewhat confused as to what you wanted her to do, as if that’s got anything to do with whether Zimmerman used unnecessary force when he killed Martin. What is more notable is that the Martin attorney says no one ever contacted the girl to find out what happened. WTF? That, if true, is just unconscionable.
@jimrtex:
How old was the girl friend? I don’t expect mature judgment from say a 15 year old.
@drjohn:
Ha ha. Is this guy for real?
I love Detective John’s two-pronged strategy on this issue. Under the heroic guise of a concerned citizen interested only in justice, he relentlessly pimps and propagandizes on behalf of George Zimmerman and the dubious theory that Trayvon Martin is literally responsible for his own death. The supporting evidence for this theory includes missing Skittles receipts, the NBA All Star Game schedule and the concept that one cannot walk down a street without being besties with every resident under pain of death. Just in case that doesn’t pan out, the fall back is, well, insinuate over and over that Trayvon kinda deserved to die anyway. No harm, no foul. Open season on troubled teens. And if anyone needs a more dispassionate reason, it’s right there in the Constitution, the part about gangstas and karma being a b*tch. That’s Detective John’s America. Remember that the next time you jaywalk with a hoodie.
Mike O’Malley
what charges would be for ZIMMERMAN? HE IS THE ONE WITH A BROKEN NOSE, HIS HEAD BASH AGAINST THE CIMENT, HE HAS THE I KILL YOU WORDS, HE HAS THE STRUGGLE FOR HIS GUN,
AND HE WAS A COMMUNITY CHOSEN OFICER WHICH SHOULD GIVE HIM SOME PROTECTION,
WHY WOULD HE BE CHARGE, ON WHAT OFFENCE?
IS IT BECAUSE HE WAS CHECKING SOMEONE, AND IF HE WALK FURTHER BECAUSE HE LOST SITE OF TRAYVON? SO WHAT, HE HAS A DUTY, HE IS ON DUTY,
BESIDE, HIS SUSPICION TURN OUT TO BE RIGHT, THERE WAS NO EXCUSE BY TRAYVON TO BEAT HIM TO ATTACK HIM WHILE HE IS RETURNING TO HIS CAR, THEREFOR NO MORE A THREAT,
NO EXCUSE FROM TRAYVON TO WANT TO KILL HIM,
BYE
drjohn
here is a little creep just crawl in from the cracks, he is soiling the floor,
because TOM is full of crap, make him clean up his dirt,
because it’s stink,
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Let me fix that for you. Two Bees Haikus:
TOM
NO YOU DID NOT MAKE IT BETTER, YOU MESSED up ,
I stick to my version, and what I read on your comment is exactly what it is,
Warning Will Robinson! Warning Will Robinson! No, we do not know that Zimmerman did not know where Martin was moments before the confrontation.
You are again stepping out of the safety of facts, feasible distances in time frames, and into the assumption that all Zimmerman says (via second hand mouthpieces, and not reading any available affidavit) is fact.
@MataHarley:
But you tend to believe that Martin was closer to the clubhouse. There are not many houses to look at there: the units on the south side of the jog on Twin Trees, and the side of the unit across from the clubhouse. It would also be hard for Zimmerman to watch Martin from there.
Also you have to account for the 58 seconds before the dispatcher suggested that Martin was near the clubhouse, plus whatever time Zimmerman watched before he called. Which also happened to be the instant that Zimmerman reported that Martin was coming towards him. Remember the dispatcher is not omniscient.
At 1:09 Zimmerman confirms that it is a black male. Either Martin got close enough or he came into some more lights. It is also at this time that Zimmerman says something about a button on his shirt.
At 1:23 Zimmerman says that he is coming to check him out.
I would guess around 1:35 as the nearest approach, just based on tone of the call.
At 1:47 he is telling the dispatcher to have the officer come past the gate and make the left on the jog on Twin Trees. He is still explaining this when at 2:08, when he reports Martin is running.
If Martin had been coming towards him from immediately adjacent to the clubhouse, by then he would have been on to the jog, and it makes sense to have the police officer come that way.
Zimmerman reports Martin is running at 2:08, and the dispatcher immediately asks which direction. It is during this time that Martin is getting out of his truck. He has reported that Martin is heading toward the “other entrance” even before the truck door closes. So in those few seconds even before Zimmerman starts following him, Martin would have been traveling west and maybe north.
Zimmerman is also not omniscient. At that instant it would not appear that Martin was going to turn east toward the back entrance. It would appear that he is heading toward the main entrance.
Your scenario has 58 + (pre-call observation time) near the clubhouse.
At least 25 seconds of eastward travel to be checking Zimmerman out (or at least appear that way)
And probably 44 seconds more while Zimmerman was trying to provide directs to take the jog. If Martin was just walking back towards the clubhouse, Zimmerman wouldn’t have been wanting the officer to come around the jog. It would be “straight-in” past the gate.
Notice where the New York Times article says that Zimmerman’s father watched from “nearby” as he walked the police through the previous night? In the interview on TV, he said he watched from “a distance”. These are not inconsistent. They have somewhat different connotations. “a distance” suggests a greater effort to keep out of the way.
So when the dispatcher asked
(1) That’s [1111] the clubhouse?
(2) Do you know the [unfinished question]
(3) He’s near the clubhouse?
And Zimmerman says “yeah”, it is not obvious which question he is answering, and how near that he is to the clubhouse. If Martin had spent a minute near the clubhouse, then Zimmerman would have reported that he looked like maybe he was casing out the clubhouse, rather than looking at the houses.
But if Martin is on Twin Trees or on the grass to the north, he would be looking at the backs of the houses along Retreat View Circle. He could be wandering about, and he might notice Zimmerman and come back toward him to “check him out”. If he then ran east along the cut-through it would appear that he was heading toward the back gate, and someone would in a truck would reactively think to follow on foot (that we know with our 20/5 hindsight was not a good idea).
If Zimmerman did go to the eastern end of the sidewalk, it could be to get the street address. When the first officer arrived, he went to the address on Retreat View Circle, and then went around back. He must have been dispatched their based on a 911 call. Another 911 caller when asked whether that was on [redacted], answered, “no that’s the next street over”. So 911 calls were coming from either side of the north-south sidewalk.
jimrtex:
I tend to believe what Zimmerman said in his call 46″ in.. that he was by/near/at the clubhouse. If Zimmerman’s SUV were at the end near the Twin Trees Ln bend to the south, he has line of sight at least as far north as the NE corner of the pool when walking down Twin Trees. There are no sidewalks there. Just the walkways that go around the pool and lake.
Accommodate for what? We accommodate for exactly what GZ says… that he was near/by/at the clubhouse at that moment in time. What we don’t know is if GZ spotted him seeking shelter from rain, or if it was walking straight in from the gate entry. What does it matter? What is of pertinence is what happened in the two minutes after Zimmerman hung up from the dispatcher, and the movements of both. Zimmerman was obviously aware of Martin from around 7:09pm, or six to seven minutes prior to the confrontation. Martin was aware of Zimmerman at least five of those minutes, and attempted to skirt GZ’s vicinity, according to that same phone call.
What are you talking about? Since Martin was on the move, Zimmerman was most likely directing the dispatcher to where he was parked. Those directions fit his location.
Well now, that’s interesting. Because from where Martin and Zimmerman were in the middle north of the complex, the other gate is to the SE. You have your map turned upside down?
??? yada yada yada… you gotta point here? Do Zimmerman and his father have some sort of code for using “near”, “by”, “distance” etal? sigh Never forget. You have never heard or read Zimmerman’s account. You’ve only heard some terse statements from a police chief, media translations, or his Dad’s interviews. ’tisn’t the same as from the horse’s mouth, or the affidavit.
??? Boyo.. you’re everywhere but cogent here, jimrtex. If GZ were re-enacting his steps, going from his SUV on Twin Trees Ln to the east end of the sidewalk, he would have been off the phone call by then. As I said, if he matched the pace of fitness walkers, he’d have made it 165′ before stopping.. not 265′ (which would require 8 ft strides per sec…). Therefore he was not getting an address for the dispatcher. He was off the phone. He already told the dispatcher to have the LEO call him because, obviously, he had no intention of returning to his car when advised to do so.
I’m sorry, but I must have missed where in that phone call GM said that Martin was in the back yards of the Retreat View Circle homes. We have no reason to believe that Martin was anywhere but on the roads or sidewalks, or GZ would have mentioned he was prowling around yards.
@MataHarley:
I hear this as:
Dispatcher: He’s just walking around the area?
Zimmerman: Looking at all the houses.
There is no mention of clubhouse.
I have this as “yeah. now he’s coming toward me” The punctuation is artificial on my part. There is no pause after yeah. The dispatcher had asked him about “one-one-one-one” or “one-eleven”. Zimmerman says that is the address of the clubhouse. He doesn’t appear to recognize that he had said “one-eleven originally”. The dispatcher then asked: “that’s the clubhouse?”, started another question, and then asked “he’s near the clubhouse?”. Zimmerman responded “yeah …”
What is the house address on the east end of the cut through?
I’m confused by what you are saying. I thought you were suggesting that Zimmerman should have rolled down his window and asked. I don’t think Martin passed him. I think Martin is to the north, wandering around, looking at the “backs” of houses and staring.
At 1:23 Zimmerman thinks “He’s coming to check me out”. This is when the dispatcher dispatches the police officer, officially opens the report, and is telling Zimmerman to let him know if he “does anythng” Closest approach is maybe around 1:35. A bit later, Zimmerman is able to start give directions to his location. So maybe Martin had turned around and then decided to run.
Has anyone suggested that Zimmerman was following him in his truck? Zimmerman talked to the dispatcher for a 1-1/2 minutes after he acknowledged that he was not following Martin, and there was another 1-1/2 minutes until the altercation.
What if Zimmerman stopped following Martin when instructed to do so by the dispatcher, and acknowledged by Zimmerman. And when he said to have the officer call him so he could “tell him where he is at” he really did mean “where he is at”.
It is possible that Zimmerman realized that the the dispatcher had detected his breathing, and his lessons from the shooting range had kicked in to control his breathing so he could knock the skittle-gun out of Martin’s hand. But maybe simple is right. It is more plausible.
What does “needed wanted” mean? It looks like you started to say it was only necessary for Zimmerman to tell the police where his truck was at so they could meet them at his truck. Zimmerman was attempting to give them directions to his location. He was doing so, at the instant Martin started to run.
Zimmerman sounds like he was using his truck as a way point. After explaining to that they would see his truck, he said something else, but was overwhelmed by the dispatcher.
The fact that he wanted the officer to call him so he could tell him where he was at could indicate that he wanted the officer to call him so he could tell him where he was at. He wasn’t near the mailboxes, and would have to walk from his truck to get there, or drive there. The mailboxes were the suggestion of the dispatcher who logged agreement before Zimmerman agreed.
Zimmerman could have explained this better I suppose. “Instead of having me meet him where I’m not at, how about having him call me so I can tell him where I am at.”
I don’t think his girlfriend is too credible. She had been on the phone 6 hours. She claims to have heard the beginning of the argument. She heard a shove and the sound of ear buds falling out. She gets disconnected. She tries to call back but no answer. She later hears that Martin died. When contacted a few weeks later she recalls, that she heard an angry confrontation and a shove.
@MataHarley:
Listen to the call. Or find me some transcription that matches your interpretation.
What we don’t know is if GZ spotted him seeking shelter from rain, or if it was walking straight in from the gate entry.
“Walking around, looking about.” Was Zimmerman making that up? But then the omniscient dispatcher knew that Zimmerman was probably making the suspicious part up, and asked him whether Martin was near the clubhouse. The question caught Zimmerman off guard, and he answered honestly. Is that what you are claiming?
It’s real simple. Take the map. Draw in where you think Martin was at 0:58 when the dispatcher asked “he’s near the clubhouse?” immediately after asking “that’s the clubhouse?”
Then account for the previous 58 seconds plus whatever time Zimmerman watched before calling the police. You suggest that Zimmerman could have direct sight if Martin is at the SE corner of the clubhouse (though this is about 300 feet away). But he couldn’t have been any further north during the previous minute, or he would be out of sight.
He comes toward Zimmerman until at least 1:23, and probably until about 1:33, during which time Zimmerman is able to confirm that he is black, vs. looks black, that he is late teens, and has a button on his shirt. After that it sounds like Martin is moving away. “These [expletive] always get away” doesn’t sound like Martin is still coming closer. So put in 35 seconds at even a slow walking pace, he would be somewhat into the jog.
Remember it is Martin who is suspicious to Zimmerman. He would want the police to question Martin. “when you come into the gate, go straight and come around the jog”, this would have them driving past Martin in your scenario. I don’t think Zimmerman was trying to get the police to run Martin over.
It was your conjecture that Martin ran west on Twin Trees, north on Twin Trees, and then east on Retreat View Circle.
If Zimmerman observed that running for 5 seconds, he could not see Martin head east, even if Martin had already run that far. But in five seconds, the dispatcher had already asked which direction, and Zimmerman had said the other gate. The truck door had not shut yet.
If Zimmerman observed Martin running under your scenario, it would appear that he was heading out the front entrance.
Nope.. the alternate route I suggested Martin could have taken is east on the northern leg of Retreat View Circle, south on the same road’s loop, until he gets to the eastern end of the sidewalk/Retreat View Circle.. theoretically the same place that Zimmerman’s father said Zimmerman was retracing. Whether there is a “north” involved, and how far he’d have to travel north depends upon where he started from. And obviously, if Zimmerman saw him cut east on Retreat View Circle, he wouldn’t be running out the north gate. Of course, I don’t believe Zimmerman’s father’s account as fact either. So far, we have no definitive sources from Zimmerman himself as to what route he, or Martin took. And of course, Martin can’t speak for himself anymore. His only possible proxy voice is his gal pal, who was on the phone with him almost until the moment of his death. But then, I see some here have already discredited her as unreliable.
I’ve poured over the maps until I can see them in my sleep. I’ve used the land measure for approximate distances and line of sight for all kinds of possible movements in the time frame allotted for the call logs and events we know about. I confine myself *only* to those details, and the demonstrated actions of both individuals… one is relentless in pursuing/following, the other makes concerted efforts to get away… except, at the last minute, we are to accept that he decided to assault Zimmerman while chatting on his phone. Quite the turn about in behavior.. Zimmerman supposedly now retreating after 6-7 minutes of pursuit and surveillance, and the one being followed now becoming the aggressor. Not impossible, but not exactly easy to swallow without question either. What comes back to me over and over is, if I’m going to go into a fight with a threatening individual who’s been hounding me for 4-5 minutes, I’m damned sure not going to be in the middle of a phone call. I’m going to focus on the assault only.
As far as Martin’s movements between the clubhouse and SUV… your fascination with this is somewhat baffling since the real focus is on the missing two minutes – between Zimmerman hanging up, and the fight to Martin’s death. I’ll humor you on this one more time, and then I’m done with it. It’s incidental, but not the urgent focus to the event. We can’t be sure if Martin was on a straight trajectory, and a steady gait, towards Zimmerman. We know nothing specific, as I keep saying over and over.
The only thing we could calculate is the approximate time it would take to cover the footage between Martin east of the pool area on Twin Trees Ln, and where Zimmerman was parked, as a straight, unbroken path and at varying speeds. According to Zimmerman’s call, the description was more of an aimless movement with fits and starts, looking about, etc…. and not necessarily moving direct except for a few times when he mentioned that. So again, who knows, other than the dead teen and Zimmerman? And as I said, Martin’s not around to contradict Zimmerman’s version.
First of all, jimrtex, I am not “claiming” anything. I leave that up to the other prescient mind readers here, who insist they know routes, movements, and what both men were thinking. From the beginning, and on the only two threads I’ve chosen to engage in any debate, is merely to point out that nothing is cut and dried, and there are other ways and paths all this could have taken place. My contention from day one is that there are more questions than answers, that SYG doesn’t apply, and that a more thorough investigation and possible charges to examine if Zimmerman… were he engaging in the self defense he says he was… used excessive/unnecessary force. i.e. a gun on an unarmed teen resulting in an unnecessary killing. Just as Serino said. This is standard for the general self defense laws and trials. I don’t know if what Zimmerman says is true or only partly true trying to CYA for an event I’m sure he believes went horribly wrong. I don’t think that Zimmerman was a racist. And I don’t think he set out to kill Martin. But even that is only a belief and not a fact. I actually give him the benefit of the doubt that he is merely a victim of his own assumed authority and bad decisions.
I don’t know how the altercation started. Neither do you. I only know that, via the media, second hand mouthpiece statement and leaks, that something doesn’t add up right and needs a better look.
That said, it was you who wanted to bring up what transpired before the call, or in the seconds prior to Zimmerman’s mention of Martin’s position at/near/by the clubhouse. Again, we know nothing. Some reports say Martin had taken shelter at the clubhouse to wait out the rain. Martin’s father has an account where, obviously prior to Zimmerman leaving his vehicle to follow Martin while on the phone, Martin has walked up to Zimmerman to ask why he’s following him and Zimmerman just says he isn’t. Again, another second hand rendition of Tracy Martin’s recap of what he said the police told him of Zimmerman’s story. We don’t know.
But there is the possibility that Martin and Zimmerman did indeed meet prior to his call. If that account is true, that is not favorable for Zimmerman since he had the moment to ID himself and verify Martin’s reason for being in the neighborhood, and didn’t… then continued to call the police and dog him. Only when the full Zimmerman account… from his lips and affidavit… come out along with the evidence will we know what transpired prior to the call, the movements of both, and possibly how the two came to blows at the end.
The same two constants remain throughout all renditions… Zimmerman had ample opportunities and time to stay in, or return to, his car and wait for the LEO to arrive to handle his suspicions. And Martin was doing nothing illegal. It was his mere presence that invoked Zimmerman’s targeting.
c.lindy, “LEO” stands for Law Enforcement Officer. That should clear it up for you.
@MataHarley:
(1) My point is that “nearby” and “from a distance” can mean the same thing. I don’t know whether the NYT interviewed Zimmerman’s father, or were just relating what he said in the TV interview.
You have interpreted Zimmerman’s “yeah” response to the dispatchers “that’s the clubhouse? question fragment. He’s near the clubhouse?: to mean he’s at the clubhouse, he’s adjacent to the clubhouse, he’s leaning against the door, or he’s swimming in the pool; when there is no reason to interpret it that way, when it could as simply mean “it’s in the general vicinity of that address I gave you”.
(2) I’m saying that Zimmerman’s father said and the NYT’s account of what he said are consistent, though with different connotations. Zimmerman’s “yeah” response is consistent with Martin being “near” but not immediately adjacent. Zimmerman’s directions to come around the jog on Twin Trees are indication of where Martin was at at that time. I really don’t think that Zimmerman was thinking “I bet Martin is going to suddenly take off running in 20 seconds, so this is where you’ll find me at. Martin had stayed within eyesight for close to two minutes at that point. Around the jog is where Martin was at.
(3) I have never heard the police chief’s account. I have listened to Zimmerman’s call, and the 911 calls.
I saw the original local news report before everything was more rehearsed. I’ve heard Zimmerman’s father’s account. I don’t have a TV. I had seen the logs of Zimmerman’s police calls over the last 9 years, and had enough sense to realize that a call that he had made was about a motorcycle weaving through traffic on I-4 doing wheelies near Altamonte Springs, and wasn’t some kid on a bike doing wheelies in the neighborhood after Zimmerman had moved in an become wannabe cop. I knew that Cokie Robers was wrong when she claimed 46 calls since January 1, 2011. I realized that when someone writes that there were 46 pages of logs, that there were 46 calls, because each got its own page, even it it was a hangup call. I’m more analytical and prefer more original sources.
He probably reached the top of the T, when the dispatcher told him to stop following. That is around 150 feet. It was actually less than 33 seconds. But it can be reached at a fast walking pace, and Zimmerman may have been trotting. He was never advised to return to his car. He was advised to stop following. He acknowledged, indicated that he could not see Martin, and then talked on the phone for a 1-1/2 minutes as he gave his name and phone number, and then the lengthy discussion about where to meet the police officer. Zimmerman would want the officer to come to the last place he had seen Martin.
Going to the east would be after he hung up, in order to get a street address to give to the police officer when he called.
“walking around looking about”
“he’s just staring”
“looking at all the houses”
“now he’s staring at me” (implies he was staring at other things before)
“now he’s coming towards me”
It’s about 30 feet from the curb on Twin Trees to the back of the houses on Retreat View Circle.
@Mike O’Malley:
Your suggestion is probably a good one. This is a conservative blog and I cannot understand the sanctiomonious venom that spews forth from some, especially given that this blog does not belong to them. Everyone is on trial at all times here and the rest of us must fall into lockstep when it’s time to put the person who misspoke on the Joe McCarthy wintness chair and if you choose not participate that must mean you too are Communist. This is hardly the way I would conduct myself were I a member of this blog. In fact, I do not conduct myself in such a manner with other visitor now. I think it’s disgraceful.
drjohn
I want to thank you for a good POST, AND HAVING ME IN the challenge with other good will visiters, it was uplifting also to exchange ideas, and to assume at time , following our own logic,,
that is your courtesy following us all in the display so varied and acknowledging the new infos as they surface,, and as you know, coping with varied positions and debating between our group from both sides,
and we might hit the 500 comment as it clime constantly,
on another note, I can assure you that I will keep a keen eye to be able to hit that 500,
as I prove to be the champion undefeated to this day,
and I dare anyone to challenge me and take away my crown of high prize comment
of multi hundreds
numbers
best to you
@ilovebeeswarzone: Thank you, Bees
Down below is a link of the official history of Zimmerman’s police calls giving dates, years and time records. Off to the right, there are scant descriptions of points made in the calls… just to give the gist of the nature of his calls. In a few reports, Z requests Leo . It makes me wonder who Leo is.
The bulk of these reports make Z sound overzealous, obsessive and all over the place, mindful of Captain Courageous. He is out on public streets reporting observations as well as other communities. Did he volunteer as watch person in other condo communities and apartment complexes? It is alsokind of difficult to analyze the police and Zimmerman lingo and codes.
Take look at the link provided to see if any of it draws a picture of George Zimmerman.
http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/911CallHistory.pdf
@c. lindy:
1+2) reported two children not in car seats. Possibly in bed of pickup truck?
3) Neighbors garage door open. Neighbors don’t answer door.
4) Person walking in roadway with paper bag. 3 units assigned, and it appears subject was taken in for public intoxication.
5) Pothole blocking road.
6) Neighbor garage door open.
7) Stray dog (animal control requested)
8) Sister called Zimmerman saying someone (WM) is at door (what is a S13-p). Then couldn’t get a hold of her. Zimmerman was in route. When Zimmerman gets there, Sister is OK.
9) Car driving around apartment complex (2:38 am) blasting music.
10) 12:50 AM, 2 HM and 1 WM and slim jim. Turns out owners of car were locked out.
11) Someone is slashing his tire (known suspect?)
12) Ex-roommate who had moved out?
13) Ex=roommate letting people in house. They’re throwing things at his truck and neighbor. And then at police car.
14) Fire alarm going off.
15) Some kind of call about neighbor. Followup two weeks later when neighbor returns, indicate all is OK.
16) Blue car with no inside lights and no pets?
17) Fire alarm.
18) 6-8 persons jumping fence to pool area, trashing bathroom.
19) ??? At Kohls, something about landlord trying to take rent money, home in foreclosure.
20) Car with no headlights and speeding.
21) Pothole.
22) Motorcycle doing wheelies on I-4 (4:00 PM) in Altamonte Springs
23) Pitbull
24) ???
25) Car cutting people off (Orange County vehicle) in Longwood.
26) Argument WM vs female at 4:38 AM. One taking 1008 (sobriety test, complaint?)
27) Open garage door. No response from neighbor.
28) Lots of cars coming and going outside unit, and people run outside to car and then back inside.
29) ??? Something about car. 3 patrol cars dispatched. Accident?
30) 50 people having party in clubhouse at 11:13 PM. Not residents.
31) Loud party, 50 people, blocking street.
32) Female yelling at elderly persons in car (in shopping parking lot?)
33) Trash in roadway including glass.
34) Report of remote alarm.
35) Pit bull.
36) Small child walking along alone busy street at about 7 pm.
37) Report of remote alarm.
38) Suspicious persons possibly involved in burglaries.
39) Suspicious persons possibly involved in burglaries, will run into neighboring sudivision.
40) Garage door open. Police officer at Neighborhood Watch meeting the previous night said to report anything.
41) Car at front gate (12:55 AM). Just appear to be loitering.
42) Someone complaining about not getting paid for event, didn’t hire (not at Retreat View).
43) Children (4-11) playing in street, running out in front of cars.
44) Suspect keeps going up to house of neighbor.
45) Suspicious subject.
Mata answered the question with this answer: c.lindy, “LEO” stands for Law Enforcement Officer. That should clear it up for you.
—————
Thanks… I’m still laughing at myself… and this proves I am not privy to police lingo, ha, ha.
LOL! No problem, c.lindy. I got a few laughs at your “Leo” question. And of course, the first thing that popped into my mind was the MGM lion logo… Call in the puddy cats!
Mata, and others interested:
This story is going to break open real soon.
Hal Uhrig and Craig Sonner announced they are quitting representing George Zimmerman at an unusual press conference at the Sanford courthouse this afternoon, at which they suggested that Zimmerman (once their client) was undergoing some kind of breakdown.
“We’re concerned for his emotional and physical safety,” said Uhrig, who added that the last contact they had with him was on Sunday.
“This has been a terribly corrosive process. George Zimmerman, in our opinion, is not doing well emotionally, probably suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome.
Sonner, who said he was representing Zimmerman for no charge, said: “I’ve lost contact with him.
“Up until this point I had contact every day. He’s gone on his own – I’m not sure what he’s doing or who he’s talking to.
The lawyers said that they had learned Zimmerman had called Sean Hannity against their wishes to discuss the case, albeit off the record.
But it was Zimmerman’s call to special prosecutor Angela Corey, who is currently deciding whether to charge him, that appeared to be the final straw.
More here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/10/george-zimmerman-lawyers-trayvon-martin?newsfeed=true
Nan G, I heard some a media report by someone… don’t know who…that said Zimmerman (plus presumably spouse) fled Florida. Considering he’s put up a Facebook page to gather cash from friendly supporters for his defense, strikes me as odd that he doesn’t plan a defense, and shuns those that have been standing by him.
I found it odd that so many touted his passage of a “stress test”. Short of military combat veterans and LEOs, I find it odd that someone who had just killed a teen (and I would give him benefit of the doubt that it wasn’t an intentional planned event), would not have an iota of stress considering his story that he was in fear of his life from Martin. Don’t know where Zimmerman is coming from, and it’s not my job to figure that out. But if he is so sure of his innocence, aided by the fact that the only person who can testify against his account of the evening is dead, the choices he is making seem to be as ill thought out as they were that night. He certainly doesn’t need to add fugitive or bail hopping to his woes if the prosecutor decides to press charges. Bounty hunting is illegal in Florida, but alive and well in others.
MATA
HI,
ZIMMERMAN SHOT IN EXTREME PRESSURE TO SAVE HIS LIFE, HIS FATHER OR BROTHER SAID HIS SON OR BROTHER, WAS CRYING NON STOP SINCE THEN, HE IS A CARING PERSON FOR THE OTHER, WE KNOW A FEW STORY PROVING IT. NOW HIS 2 LAWYERS ARE AFRAID FOR HIS EMOTIONAL STATE OF MIND,
OF COURSE ITIS, AND IT PROVE IN HIS FAVOR THAT HE WAS NOT A RUTHLESS KILLER, WE HAVE ACKNOWLEDGE IT OURSELVES BY FOLLOWING THE INFOS THE ONES WHICH WHERE NOT FABRICATED
TO HANG HIM, THEY SAY HE IS DEPRESS AND LOST A LOT OF WEIGHT, HE MIGHT NOT BE IN A STATE OF MIND TO MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION AT THIS POINT, YES THAT IS CREDIBLE, HE KNOW HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY ARE IN DANGER, HE HAS TO HIDE MEANING ALL HIS LIFE IS BROKEN IN SHATTERED PIECES, BECAUSE OF THE SHARPTON JACKSON AND PANTHER, THEY SHOULD BE ARRESTED FOR THE BOUNTY THEY GAVE RESULTING IN MORE BEATING WIT HAMMERS FROM A GANGS OF 6 YOUNG COWARDS, PLUS THE OTHER BEATING WHICH FOLLOWED, AND MORE TO COME,
IT MIGHT BE ENERGYSE BY THE OBAMA AGENDA TO USE IT AS A MARTIAL LAW EXCUSE THEY WON’T LET IT PASS AWAY, AND THE TWO WHITES REVENGE KILLING WHICH WILL BE FOLLOW IF THE BLACKS CONTINUE THEIR CRIMES, THEY WON’T GET AWAY WITH IT,
AND ZIMMERMAN IS FOLLOWING ALL THAT EVIL AND SURELY FEEL BAD AND RESPONSIBLE TO BE IN THAT, BUT HIS LIFE IS WHORTHY TO BE CONTINUE, BECAUSE HE IS NEVER THE LESS A GOOD MAN WHO FOUGHT FOR HIS LIFE AFTER BEING BEATEN SAVAGELY, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR TRAYVON TO WHAT HE DID, HE WAS RESPONSIBLE OF HIS CHOICE TO USE VIOLENCE OVER WORDS,
IT NORMALY SHOULD AFFECT A GOOD MAN LIKE ZIMMERMAN TO TAKE A LIFE, AS OPPOSE TO A MAN WITHOUT A CONSCIENCE OF ANY REMORSES, IT TELL US A LOT,
Bees, I’m going to say this to you direct because you’re not picking up on anything in my general comments.
You don’t know anything about what happened except what has been said in media and by second hand accounts. Zimmerman can tell any story he wants to the police, those details may be leaked and spun. None of it makes it true.
So I would appreciate you stop passing on stuff as fact, when you don’t know that he was in “extreme pressure” to save his life after a 30-45 second fight. (Dang… I’ve seen guys come out of a standard bar fight looking worse…) That is for the prosecutor and jury to decide after they’ve heard evidence, if there are charges brought.
Furthermore, Sharpton and Jackson did NOT issue any bounty, and in fact condemned the New Black Panthers for doing so… applauding the arrest of a New Black Panther leader in Atlanta two weeks ago.
MATA
OKAY, BUT WHY SHOULD WE NOT BELIEVE SOME INFO FROM HIS LAWYERS, FROM HIMSELF, from his family, from the police
WHY SHOULD HE LIE, HE CARRY THE SIGN ON HIS NOSE AND HEAD,
BESIDE HIS WOUNDS COULD ALSO BE WHY HE IS SO DEPRESS BECAUSE OF A POSSIBLE CONTUSION ON HIS BRAIN, THIS IS ANOTHER OF MINE ASSUMING,
I have been rob before and know the feeling of before during and after having been attack,
bye
Because, Bees, the lawyers weren’t there that night either. No one knows for a fact how that fight began. We only know that prior to that time, Zimmerman was pursing, and Martin was running. Now Zimmerman says the tables turned. But Martin can not speak for himself because he’s dead. So it’s only Zimmerman’s word.
And, in fact, we have seen no official account by Zimmerman himself. Only a few comments here and there by police, attorneys or family members. Eye witness accounts vary. Voice analysts disagree with Zimmerman’s story. We don’t know jack. That’s why there needs to be the investigation.
There is no doubt there was a fight. However I’ve seen worse injuries from bar room fights, and none of them look life threatening. Therefore prosecutors would look to whether Zimmerman used unnecessary and excessive force in shooting Martin, even if he were defending himself.
State Attorney Angela Corey, the special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case, announced on Tuesday night that she will hold a news conference sometime within the next three days.
New info will be brought out.
Media will get a 3 hour advance notice and need a valid drivers license to attend.
(Take that!)
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Corey-to-present-new-information/-/1637132/10452410/-/gx69ei/-/index.html
MATA
I believe what you say, and I’m adding my logic that he was the guy underneath the 6 footer
x pound leaning on his body locking it to no escape possible, beside ZIMMERMAN must have been afraid for his gun too before the other discovered it,
AND HE COULD HAVE SHOT HIM BEFORE FALLING ON THE GROUND, WO KNOWS BUT HE DID NOT, WITH HIS NOSE BROKEN AS HE WAS STANDING UP TURNING TOWARD THE ASSAILANT TO FACE HIM ASKING THE QUESTION WHICH HE ANSWER NO, AND THE REPLY CAME AT THE SAME TIME AS THE PUNCH AND BROKEN NOSE, WHICH
GOT THEM BOTH ON THE GROUND BASHING HIS HEAD ON CONCRETE ,CORROBORATE BY WITNESS
WHICH CALL 911
OKAY I assume that ZIMMERMAN HAD ONLY A NANO SECOND TO GET HOLD OF THE GUN AND SHOOT
WHY WOULD HE NOT SHOOT MATA? WOULD YOU? WOULD AYE? WOULD I YES I WOULD
Stick with what we know, and let the prosecutors and judicial system do their work, Bees. “Logic” doesn’t pass for fact. Fights may often have one besting the other, and the upper hand changing later in the fight. You have no idea when Martin became aware of the gun, if he did at all. Again, that “fight over the gun” is second hand leaked stuff, and not from any Zimmerman affidavit or official statement because we haven’t seen one.
We know nothing. Stop filling in the blanks with what you want to believe, and leave it to the judicial system and investigation.
MATA
OKAY I WILL, UNTIL THEN
I TRUST YOUR KNOWLEDGE, I KNOW YOU KNOW THE LAW TOTALLY,
BYE
I’m afraid for his life,
Nan G.
THANK YOU FOR THE INFO,
ONLY 3 HOURS NOTICE SHOW THEY ARE SCARE OF REPRISAL TOO,
I don’t blame her, she is in danger too, she need the bodyguards for sure,
bye
MATA
I just remember they had found gun powder on TRAYVON CLOTHES,
BYE
@MataHarley:
I understood perfectly what you said.
In Zimmerman’s call, he is telling the dispatcher to direct the officer through the main gate, to not turn left (east) on Retreat View Circle, but go south through the (northern) intersection of Twin Trees and Retreat View Circle, and turn left (east) in the jog on Twin Trees.
As Zimmerman is explaining this (remember that Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees are only 120 feet apart in the jog), he says that Martin is running. He gets out of his truck, and before the truck door has closed he has reported that Martin is running toward the other gate.
If Martin did go east on (the north loop) of Retreat View Circle and did not go north first, then he had to be at the (northern) intersection of Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees. Zimmerman would in effect be telling the police officer to go through the intersection, ignoring the suspicious guy in the hoodie, other than to avoid running him over, and then come around the jog on Twin Trees. And Zimmerman could not observe Martin from there to see him starting to run. This did not happen.
If Martin was south of the intersection on Twin Trees, but north of the jog, Zimmerman would be telling the police to run over Martin. He could observe Martin starting to run north, but would have to make an immediate assessment that he was heading toward the other gate. This did not happen.
If Martin was along the jog in Twin Trees, Zimmerman’s instructions would bring the police to where both he and Martin were. But it would mean that Martin would have to run west and then north on Twin Trees. And Zimmerman would have to be prescient to know he would turn east on Retreat View Circle and identify that as the other entrance. This did not happen
If Martin was north of Twin Trees (in the grass) or along the edge of Twin Trees, and he ran east through the cut through, this would be consistent with Zimmerman’s phone call. This may have happened> and matches what Zimmerman’s father observed the next day.
If Martin ran south on Twin Trees (south of the jog), this would have been consistent with Zimmerman’s phone call. But it would also mean that Martin later went north, and it would not explain why Zimmerman ended up going east – unless Zimmerman was not following Martin when he said he was. This is quite unlikely
jimrtex, you sure waste a ton of bandwidth and assumptions on the time and area when Zimmerman was on the phone, and seem to care nary a whit what was going on in the real time frame that counts.. the two minutes after Zimmerman hung up.
Again, all possibilities are in play because we don’t know for sure where any of two were during that time. You think he was directing the dispatcher to send cops to Martin’s whereabouts. (Run him over… get serious.) Personally I think that he was directing them to his location because it wasn’t likely that Martin would be standing in the same place by the time the PD arrived. Guess what… there’s only two people who know where they were that moment in time, and how they moved thru the ‘hood. But one of them is dead.
But hey… if you want to assume there is only one way… your way… without any of us knowing more specific details, have at it. But I think of the other possibilities. i.e.was he (Zimmerman) parked and stationary? Was he moving slowly along the roads so there was no detectable engine noise? Did the reason he give crazy directions to the clubhouse area first was because he was driving and changing spots, or just dyslexic?
How many times can I say this? WE DON’T KNOW, and it sure is amazing how all you seem to think you do. But play it whatever way makes your heart sing. But according to those of you who weren’t there, but are so sure of everything, Martin then had to go right past Zimmerman, while he did nothing. Didn’t roll down the window to satisfy his curiosity, politely introduce himself… zip, nada, nothing.
I guess he then preferred the cat and mouse approach? Not exciting enough to simply ask the question of Zimmerman’s reason for being in the ‘hood from the safety of his car?
But if you want to believe that, have at it. If that was how it played, and it may be, then Zimmerman was a walking bundle of bad judgement calls and ignoring that opportunity to clear the air without altercation was the height of stupidity. Personally, I’d like to think that Zimmerman wasn’t so dumb as to let that opportunity to slip by.
There’s only one thing I am sure of is that Zimmerman was 33 seconds away from his parked SUV – where ever it really was – that he was not going to pursue Martin (so you all tell me), and yet two minutes later still couldn’t manage to make his way 33 seconds back to his SUV. That is a simple and irrefutable fact.
So the “returning to the car” bit is stretching the truth, since he had plenty of time to return to his car. Obviously he chose to ignore the warnings and not wait for the LEO to arrive. And any returning to the car was way after the more salient decision to do so, allowing the police to do their jobs.
Bees, the fight started 7:16 (seconds unknown). The police arrived by 7:17 and Martin was dead, lying in the grass and not on top of Zimmerman.
c.lindy, from what I’ve read about both Zimmerman and Martin, I’m not thinking I’d be inviting either to Thanksgiving Dinner as friends. Neither were my cup of tea. One was a teen, and they usually do have the arrogance of that age. And since I have no interest in the “gangsta” mentality, I’d have little to talk to Martin about. Zimmerman? Were he my neighbor, we’d be clashing constantly about his propensity to call the police every time a neighbor emitted some flatulence. Frankly, he sounds like an intrusive busy body to me.
@MataHarley:
George Z. has demonstrated control and defiance on numerous occasions such as physically fighting with a cop who was there to commandeer Z’s friend who was fighting — being told by the Sanford police dept. to cease following Trayvon Martin on a call Z. placed to 911 but resisted, and I believe he had a restraining order against him.
The key word is (defiance) which could indicate that if he doesn’t like the rules, he develops his own set of rules. Now we see him defying the advice of his lawyers, by going ahead to construct his own website without telling them and cutting off contact with them. That is why his lawyers called a press conference to announce that they were no longer his counsel and citing the circumstances surrounding their decision. He demonstrates defiance of his lawyers by refusing to take their advice and refusing to communicate with them. Once again, he has demonstrated that he ignores direction and takes control of the situation with his own set of rules.
Could this strange and arrogant defiance have transpired in Zimmerman the night he shot and killed Martin?
MATA
DO WE KNOW HOW LONG IT TOOK THE POLICE TO COME AFTER THE
LAST CALL OF ZIMMERMAN?
JUST CURIOUS TO SEE IF THEY COULD HAVE COME TO STOP THE SHOT,
OR TO STOP THE BEATING AND THE SHOT,
I did not see that info, or missed it
BYE
do we know
edit; did they came with the warning noise on their car or silently
@MataHarley:
Start listening at 0:58, when Zimmerman says “now he’s coming toward me”
Do you think that Martin was coming in the direction of Zimmerman?
1:29 “get an officer over here”
Do you think that Zimmerman wanted a police officer to come to the subdivision?
1:31 “yeah, we’ve got them on the way”
Do you think that the dispatcher thought Zimmerman wanted a police officer to come to the subdivision?
1:47-2:07 “when you come in the gate …”
Do you think that Zimmerman thought it would be the dispatcher coming in the gate? Or if he was using “you” to refer to the responding police officer?
Where do you think he was directing the police officer? Why do you think he was directing the police officer to that location?
@MataHarley:
I don’t believe that Martin went right past Zimmerman. I am not responsible for what anyone else thinks.
If he did, it would have been when he was talking to the dispatcher.
Why didn’t the dispatcher suggest that Zimmerman roll down the window, and politely introduce himself.
@c. lindy:
The restraining order was between Zimmerman and his ex-fiancee. It was mutual, and he was around 21.
The “cop” was apparently an undercover ABC agent (they’re LEOs too). Supposedly, the ABC agent was talking to Zimmerman’s friend/fellow employee/acquaintance and Zimmerman came up and started talking, and pushed the ABC agent. Somehow, I think that if you had shoved a uniformed police officer you would get more than deferred adjudication. He was 21.
The dispatcher, who is unlikely to be a LEO, did not order Zimmerman to desist following Trayvon. He said that “we don’t need you to do that”. Zimmerman acknowledged the request, and stopped.
It is only in the newspaper accounts, that he was ordered not to follow Zimmerman, and then followed him. Do you think that if something is reported in a newspaper, and the “journalist” puts a period, and opens the next sentence with, “Then, ” that it actually indicates a time sequence?
@ILOVEBEESWARZONE
bees the SPD initial report put them on the scene at 7:17. They must have been around the corner.
We know where GZ and TM were at 7:17. Backing things up from that time to the last call is where the proximity or possible proximity of the men gets fuzzy. There was a report in the NY times that Tracy Martin was told by SPD that two exchanges of words took place. One in which TM asked GZ ,while in his vehicle, why he was being followed. The second exchange being immediately before the fight began. The particulars are in MS.Corey’s possession and we can’t or won’t have them until she makes her findings public.
Brian
READ AGAIN, I added to it, at the end
thank you for that info, GEEZ, just to say, it was so close for the end to be different
by the police arrival to change the outcome, I THINK THE WITNESS WHO LAST CALL HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY WHERE ON THE WAY AND DESCRIBE THE FIGHT OF BASHING HEAD BY THE ONE ON TOP;
YES WHERE ON THE WAY? and with or without the beep beep,
that is interesting to find.
so THURSDAY IS THE DAY FOR GETTING THE LAST WORD, TOMORROW
BYE
EDIT; YOU MENTIONED OF THE NY NEWS SAYING ” WHILE HE WAS ON HIS VEHICULE”
i DON’T RECALL HE WAS ON HIS VEHICULE, WHEN THE WORDS
WAS EXCHANGE, I LEARN INSTEAD, HE WAS WALKING TOWARD HIS VEHICULE, AND TRAYVON CAME
ON HIS LEFT BACK, ASKING IF HE HAD A PROBLEM
COULD THE NEW YORK NEWS ARE TRYING TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE ZIMMERMAN GOT OUT OF HIS CAR TO ATTACK FIRST?
BYE
@MataHarley:
Is there a difference in meaning between where his “truck was” and “truck really was”?
I am only responsible for my own words, not for “you all” whomever you may fantasize “they” are.
Zimmerman talked on the phone to the dispatcher for a minute and a half without moving from where he was at after the 33 seconds (but I’m not sure how you figure 33 seconds).
You have claimed that the dispatcher requested Zimmerman return to his truck, but have not pointed out where this is on the recording. Probably because it is not there. Why would he be expected to return to the truck when he asked the dispatcher to have the officer call him when he arrived to tell him “where he is at”?, and the dispatcher said “that’s no problem”
jimrtex:
Your first comment was in reference to a restraining order sworn out on Zimmerman by his ex fiancee’. You say, “The restraining order was between Zimmerman and his ex-fiancee. It was mutual, and he was around 21″.
Mutual means they both (agreed to swear out restraining orders against each other.) The ex fiancee’ initiated the restraining order. Z. responded with his own restraining order against her. The addition of ‘he was around 21’ seems to infer that, because of his age, he was naturally irresponsible. If so, all I have to say is, Wow!
Next, you say: “The “cop” was apparently an undercover ABC agent (they’re LEOs too). Supposedly, the ABC agent was talking to Zimmerman’s friend/fellow employee/acquaintance and Zimmerman came up and started talking, and pushed the ABC agent. Somehow, I think that if you had shoved a uniformed police officer you would get more than deferred adjudication. He was 21.”
Let’s define Deferred Ajudication. Deferred adjudication is a form of plea deal available in jurisdictions, where a defendant pleads “guilty” or “No Contest” to criminal charges in exchange for meeting certain requirements laid out by the court within an allotted period of time also ordered by the court. Upon completion of the requirements, which may include probation, treatment, community service, or some form of community supervision, the defendant may avoid a formal conviction on their record or have their case dismissed. In some cases, an order of non-disclosure can be obtained, and sometimes a record can be expunged. Perhaps Z. consulted his father, a judge, as to the most expedient manner to handle the situation? You again added that Z. was 21. Twenty-one is considered the legal age in the US when we have reached the age of adulthood. Reaching age 21, we are no longer considered children or teens and are legally held responsible for our own actions.
Additionally, you say, “The dispatcher, who is unlikely to be a LEO, did not order Zimmerman to desist following Trayvon. He said that “we don’t need you to do that”. Zimmerman acknowledged the request, and stopped.”
What part of “we don’t need you to do that” do you not understand? No, it was not an order, but served as a reminder that Z was operating out of bounds for a Neighborhood Watch representative. And how do you know that Z “actually” acknowledged the request, and stopped? Were you there? Are there witnesses to verify that?
Next you say, “It is only in the newspaper accounts, that he was ordered not to follow Zimmerman, and then followed him.”
Z. was not “ordered” to cease following (I think you meant Martin) then followed him. The only factual information that Z was dissuaded from following Martin is in the 911 tape… “We do not need you to do that.” The only person who actually knows if Z. disregarded the 911 person’s dissuasion, is Z himself.
You end with a question, “Do you think that if something is reported in a newspaper, and the “journalist” puts a period, and opens the next sentence with, “Then, ” that it actually indicates a time sequence?”
The only time-sequence I consider legitimate is the official 911 transcript of recorded times from the Sanford Police Dept report. I agree that some (print and electronic media) reports can be taken with a grain of salt, but on the other hand, there are many reports that adhere to the (who, what, when and where practice.) It is up to the recipient of news to decide the credibility of a media report.
The time for speculation may be coming to an end:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/11/prosecutor-to-announce-decision-on-zimmerman/?hpt=hp_c1
The office of special prosecutor Angela Corey, who is investigating the Trayvon Martin shooting case, said that charges against George Zimmerman have not been filed. The office would not confirm whether the office planned to charge him, according to HLN’s Josey Crews.
Earlier, CNN reported that Corey is expected to announce a decision Wednesday regarding whether she will file charges against Zimmerman, and a senior law enforcement source familiar with the Martin death investigation said that Zimmerman would be charged.
FOX now reports tht Zimmerman will be formally charged, with the official announcement to be made by Angela Corey at 6:00 P.M. EDT.
And now this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_print.html
Prosecutor Angela Corey’s options:
1. No charges… not enough evidence to warrant prosecution
2. Charge with second degree murder
3. Voluntary manslaughter
4. Involuntary manslaugher
@c. lindy: My guess is involuntary manslaughter and it is principally to prevent Sanford from being torched. Good luck with a jury.
@c. lindy:
The leak is 2nd degree murder and Zimmerman is already in custody.
Lets see if the rumors are correct.
@c. lindy:
Reportedly, Zimmerman came up to and started talking to his friend/acquaintance who was having some sort of interaction with the ABC agent. ABC agents are invariably in plain clothes, because if you are trying to catch a bar serving to under-21 or intoxicated customers, they will usually stop. It might not have been clear the the ABC agent was an LEO.
If a uniformed cop were trying to make an arrest and someone came up and shoved him, I doubt that deferred adjudication would have been offered.
The court ordered Zimmerman to stay away from his ex-fiancee for a year, and for his ex-fiancee to stay away from Zimmerman for a year.
21 YO are more immature than 28 YO.
Let’s see if we can agree on the time sequence.
(1) Zimmerman reported that Martin was running.
(2) The dispatcher asked which way did Martin run.
(3) The car door opened.
(4) Zimmerman reported that Martin was headed toward the other gate.
(5) The car door closed.
(6) The discussion continued as to the direction Martin was headed, along with sounds of the wind or heavy breathing, maybe shuffling of clothes.
(7) Dispatched asked Zimmerman “Are you following him”
(8) Zimmerman said yeah.
(9) Dispatcher said “we don’t need you to do that.”
(10) Zimmerman said “OK”
(11) Sounds die down over few seconds.
(12) Dispatcher asks for Zimmerman’s name.
(13) Zimmerman gives name.
(14) Dispatcher asks for Zimmermans’s phone number.
(15) Zimmerman gives phone number.
When did dispatcher suggest that Zimmerman not follow Martin? When did Zimmerman begin following Martin.
Is the number 6 larger than 9 or smaller than 6.
Did news reports get things out of sequence?
Is (12) a request for Zimmerman to return to his truck?
Is (14) a request for Zimmerman to return to his truck?
The Strategic MC
HI,
now what, he will carry that heavy load for the rest of his life,
for what he and many people white or black would have done,
very sad, because he had to save his life which will be miserable
before he could get some peace if he ever can,
the factor of leaning toward the pressure from a mad crowd was great enough to freak anyone,
in the case
Brian
second degree is what they choose,
it better get the crimes decrease in that community,
bye
If convicted of Second Degree Murder in Florida, a judge is required to impose a minimum prison sentence of 16¾ years in prison and can impose any additional combination of the following penalties:
Up to Life in prison.
Up to Life on probation.
Up to $10,000 in fines.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wonder if Zimmerman’s legal team will come back to him now?
Jury selection is going to be a bear!
Nan G.
I am so sad for that good man punishment.
and his family
@drjohn:
Dr. J: Zimmerman could be found not guilty of 2nd degree murder by a jury of his peers too. The state prosecutor has set the bar pretty high. If a jury thinks 2nd degree murder is too harsh after hearing the evidence in trial, the judge can reduce 2nd degree murder to manslaughter in his/her final judgement. I hope they don’t bring in a jury from another part of the state (Clearwater) like they did in the Casey Anthony fiasco.
AMERICA, I know you are sick and sad, but it’s more than I was expecting,
if nothing is done, AMERICA , YOU WILL DIE,
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Being tried does not mean being found guilty, Bees.
George Zimmerman’s family have pointed out how he was hit in the face then had his head struck against the pavement a couple of times.
CCTV at the police station showed all that was true.
Heck of a defense that you couldn’t think clearly after all those blows to the head.
He could have done anything!
Diminished capacity.
There are a lot of things the prosecutor knows that we do not.
The truth about the gun, was it jammed, how close was it to Trayvon when it went off, were Trayvon’s hands covered with gunshot residue, etc.
Even picking a fair jury is going to be a high hurdle.
I wonder where they think they can try this case?
Nan G.
thank you for the info,
I DON’T THINK IT WILL CHANGE ANYTHING IN
THE BLACK COMMUNITY,
bye