I believe that we are a nation under the judgment of God. As I look around me and see all that is happening in this once great nation, I cannot help but feel that God is trying to wake this nation up and make her see how far she has fallen in His sight.
Let me begin by stating that America has always been a God-fearing country. We were founded as a God-fearing nation. Regardless of the atheists and agnostics, the majority of the American people has claimed a belief and trust in God. Over the years we have allowed various practices into this nation that I believe is causing God to frown upon us.
The Great Awakening of American History took place in the 1730’s thru the 1750’s. It was a precursor to our American revolution. The Great Awakening came about because Puritan New England started to Compromise the teachings of God. This led to judgment on them. Crop failures. Earthquakes as in New England in 1727. In fact, a minister from New England stated “ Alas, as though nothing but the most amazing thunders and lightnings, and the most terrible earthquakes could awaken us, we are at this time fallen into as dead a sleep as ever.” The church in New England though alive, was dead in the Spirit.
A revival took place and America had a Spiritual Awakening. Thousands of people were saved and the groundwork for Liberty was laid. At the time that religious freedom was growing in America, it automatically started a movement toward more political freedom. So out of the groundwork for spiritual revival came the birth of the great nation known as the United States of America.
Not all of our Founding Fathers were Christians. But they all had at least a passing acquaintance with Biblical Christianity. And because of that, two of the greatest documents ever written by man came about: The Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution.
Now we will fast forward to our present situation.
When I was growing up I could play out in the streets even after the sun went down. I could watch TV and not be offended. My mother could take me to the movies, and though I may not have totally understood the story line, there was nothing allowed in the movies that could offend us. In fact, watching some of the older movies you can always see a moral bent to the film. Be good. Be fair. Be honest. Honesty pays. Etc. And the children were safe and it seemed that America, as a whole was a nicer nation.
Then prayer was taken out of school. No more Bible reading. And then movies were allowed to have “just a little bit of nudity”. And everything went downhill from there. It was not 15 years after prayer was taken out of school that Roe v. Wade came into being. And then pornography (which was a secret sin) was allowed to come out into the open. And then Homosexuality (which was also a secret sin.) And before I get jumped, I am not homophobic. Two people in my life that I really care for are lesbians. Let me remind you…. It was God who condemned homosexuality and called it sin.
And then children were not safe anymore. Not safe in the womb. Not safe on the streets. And now, children do not only have to fear sexual predators being strangers, they now have to fear their own family. Never a day goes by where you do not read some horrible story of a child being sexually assaulted or physically harmed by their parents. Their very own parents. Those who should be protecting and nurturing the child. This is tragic.
I am not stating that things like this did not occur when I was growing up. But they sure occurred a lot less. And people were shunned and sent to jail for their crimes. Now, when some of them stand before activist judges, they get a slap on the wrist and maybe probation. And then they are released to practice those crimes again. And where is the outrage from the American people. Oh, some of us speak up, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears.
Then the education system failed us and we allowed professors and teachers to re-write history and teach children things that children ought not to be taught. At least not while they are so terribly young and easily molded. Instead of teaching them the three R’s we teach them sex education and socialism and “green” activism. They cannot add 2 + 2 but they can tell you all about global warming.
And that sets us up for the judgment of God. There is no way that God can lie. Either His word (the Bible is true) or it is a bunch of made up stories. Personally, I believe every word written in the Bible. I may not always be able to explain an obscure passage, but I believe that God is and He is the creator of this universe. As creator, He does not want His children falling into sin. And when they do, He gets their attention.
Some of the ways that God has of getting our attention are:
Loss of Freedom. When the Israelites sinned, and failed to repent, God sent them into Babylonian slavery.
Everyday we are losing our freedoms. Everyday more mandates come down from our government dictating what we are to eat, drink, drive, etc. I have exaggerated here a little. It has not come to that yet, but you can see how we are no longer as free as, let’s say our grandparents. And especially our great-grandparents. They built this nation. They were not taxed to death. They made their own wealth. Us. Well, we are paying well over 50% of our income in taxes. And soon to pay more. With taxation comes the loss of freedom.
Another judgment is danger. We are no longer safe in this nation. We are beset on all sides by our enemies. 9/11, Fort Hood, the Christmas Day almost-nightmare. We are no longer safe. “Our necks are under persecution: we labor and have no rest. We have given the hand to the Egyptians, and to the Assyrians to be satisfied with bread. Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have born their iniquities. Servants have ruled over us: there is none that doth deliver us out of their hand. We eat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness.” Lamentations 5:5-9
And finally, famine. The past year of 2009 here in central Arkansas was very cold and damp. Lots of gardens did not come good because of the lack of sunshine and excessive moisture. As I am writing this, we are expecting lows this weekend of 5 degrees. We are being punished with an Arctic blast. This is not normal weather for the mid-south. And this has been continuing since late October (on and off). I plant a fall garden. This year it is failing because of the cold. All of my crops can handle cold weather. This is more than cold. This is the killing kind of cold.
And it is not just here. The cold is seeping way into the Deep South. The south that grows so many fruits and vegetables for the nation during the winter. The kind of cold that kills the crops.
Also, many people were late in getting their gardens out last year because of the cold. And then came the rains and the below normal temperatures and the lack of sunshine. And so, their gardens failed.
Famine is one of the judgments that God uses to get peoples attention. If these growing conditions continue, that is what we in this country will be experiencing. Famine. “And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers”. Jeremiah 24:10
Do I feel that things are hopeless? No. I do not. But I do believe that if this nation is to remain free and blessed by God we are going to have to turn back to Him and not just with words, but also with deeds. Simply meant, we have to mean that we are turning back to him. If we do not, I fear God will judge us very harshly.
“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” II Chronicles 7:14
As it was in New England in the early 1700’s, the churches of today, though alive, are dead in the Spirit. If we were to have another Great Awakening and Spiritual Revival, I truly believe that God would once again bless this nation.
It is up to us now. Do we want God’s judgment or His Blessings? It is our choice.
@Aye Chihuahua:
Mazel Tov on your 20th, and may your next 20 (and many more) be great!
@Cooter99 – Sorry, just getting back to the string. No, I’m not saying that at all. If that’s what you believe, it’s yours to own. I would ask you one back. . . Are you saying that if you happen to be wrong, that the good life you have lead will get you into heaven? According to Scripture, i.e., what we call God’s Word, it would not. Hence why I said what I did. I’d rather err on the side of believing He is and always will be.
COOTER i think that you have around 100 dollards in your pocket plus the credit cards bye i never got to calculate my budget like you do,
@cooter99:
“I still contend that if God proved his existence to me I would believe.”
Of course you would, but then you would no longer have any free will, because it would then be impossible for you to do anything wrong. The problem is, if you KNOW G-d, you have no free will; no free will = no test; no test = no reward. You would be happy, but you would be stuck wherever you were, and couldn’t ever accomplish anything, spiritually, for which you would later be rewarded. Incidentally, that’s the Jewish idea of what will happen when the Messiah comes, that he’ll show us how to “see” G-d in the world around us in a way that will make it impossible for us to ever do anything bad again.
The Exodus is replete with what G-d did to the Egyptians. But they still refused to “believe.” Why? Because they could interpret all the events as “natural” occurrences. The problem was that Moses knew what they would be before they happened, and each one proved that a specific idolatry of the Egyptians was powerless. They were predicted, had a specific theme, occurred in a statistically impossible way, didn’t affect the Hebrews. Yet Pharaoh kept looking for a “natural” explanation, because when a person doesn’t want to see G-d’s hand, he is given that ability. Our Sages say, “G-d leads a person in the direction he wants to go.”
Anyway, so G-d hides himself to make it more exciting and rewarding for us to look for Him. There’s plenty of evidence, but it’s up to us to put it together, and that’s not easy.
Here’s an audio from among those I referred to above, but I single it out here because I think it addresses some of your concerns.
mms://stream.simpletoremember.com/simpletoremember/misc/Dr_Gerald_Schroeder-Origin_of_Life.mp3
I hope that helps.
@Chet: I’m not saying that I would or wouldn’t get into heaven/afterlife. I guess that depends on which religion you adhere to. Among the many faiths there are many ways to access the afterlife. I happen to believe that death is the end and I feel that my time is put to better use by enjoying all life has to offer than by trying to figure out which faith is the “right” one and then spending a lot of time worshiping or praying or doing whatever it takes to access that afterlife. A life well lived is its own reward.
As far as erring on the side of believing, with so many options to choose from, the odds for any of them aren’t compelling enough to make me overly concerned about it.
For those interested in the Exodus, here’s a great book/CD that gives some info about it that you normally aren’t told.
http://www.lightcatcherbooks.com/products_books_riddle.shtml
@yonason: I did read Dr. Schroeder’s interpretation of the first six days that you referenced. It’s an interesting idea. It seems like a somewhat convoluted explanation though. Schroeder says himself that the first six days is described in only 31 sentences. He also says that you have to dig to get to the truth about this period of time. It seems to me though, that he already had an outcome decided when he started digging. It felt like he was trying to make the Torah fit the reality that we observe today. Starting with such a spare description, it would be possible to interpret these passages in many ways. I’ll check out the audio you suggested.
I’m curious why you don’t spell out God. You say G-d. Is it out of respect? Part of your religion? Just wondering.
@ilovebeeswarzone: Not sure what you mean. Elucidate please.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
@yonason:
yonason,
Thanks for your kind wishes.
My wife is the love of my life, my very best friend, and my soul mate.
We were High School sweethearts and, having met in the ninth grade, our relationship goes back to when I was 14…gosh that was a long time ago (I’m 42 now).
Bees,
I’ve never actually slept “on the roof” but I can certainly identify with the words of Solomon since I’ve been in situations where the rooftop looked appealing.
COOTER i made a mistake it was for GARY KUKIS who had the link of calculathig the date of the human population from the beginning of the world with algebra something i never could do
@cooter99:
The hypothesis to test is, “Does Cosmology fit what the Torah says”
It does.
Therefore, hypothesis has not been falsified. I.e., there’s no contradiction between science and Torah.
I don’t see what objection you could have with that. If you think he was distorting the science, you need to show how else it could be expressed that Schroeder was hiding. But, since what he’s given is pretty much the only way it can be stated, there’s no distortion possible, as far as I can see.
As to the encoding of information in the Torah. It’s very information dense, and most people can’t get that info out. You will note that Schroeder only uses ancient commentators who told us a tiny bit of what those 31 sentences meant. And what they said is amazingly consistent with what science now tells us. I repeat what Schroeder said, that he was using interpretations of the Torah that could not possibly have been apologetics. There was no reason for the Sages to say what they did, because at the time it made no sense. Only in the light of modern science are we able to begin to realize what incredible insight they had.
I hope the links I gave help.
Gotta go.
@Aye: “I’ve been in situations when the rooftop looked appealing.”
LOL! Anyone who’s been married a while (for me, 38 years and counting) knows that — along with love and faith — a good sense of humor is an invaluable “secret” ingredient to a lasting relationship.
to GARY KUKIS i have to repeat a comment i send to cooter instead of you it was i know you have 100 dollars in your ocket plus credit card just trying from your link evolution it was very informative i still dont understand algebra bye
A video The Case for a Creator featuring Lee Strobel takes science and explores the existence of our Creator. It is very in depth and persuasive. Lee Strobel was initially an atheist and describes his quest for determining if a Creator did indeed exist. It’s easy to access via Netflix.
@cooter99: Hi cooter–you said:
[One question for you. Why do you believe in the faith of Christianity? Why not Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, or Mormonism (or any of the many others)? That’s one major reason that religion feels wrong to me. With so many belief systems all claiming to be “the one, true faith” I wonder how any of them can be true. I am aware that some faiths are accepting of others, but many faiths contend that belief in one is the only way to be saved. This makes me question all of them.]
I guess on these kinds of topics, it’s best to speak from personal reference rather than me speaking on the part of all Christians on why Christianity is their choice and not Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, or Mormonism. Of course, if you believe the core tenet of Christianity, it is the belief that Christ was the only begotten Son of God, and whose death became the perfect sacrifice/atonement for the sins of mankind as Christ was without sin (reference to the Old Testament where a lamb without spot or blemish was used to atone for the sins of the people during Passover each year). Christ became THE Lamb of God, without spot or blemish, so that those who believe in and put their faith in Him would, by faith, receive forgiveness of sins, as did the Israelites in Old Testament times when a lamb was sacrificed on their behalf. I believe this is the reason I have chosen Christianity as my faith. I know I’m not perfect and need forgiveness, and desire a personal relationship with my Creator. I know this is a very simplistic answer, but maybe it suffices for now.
Did any of the other originators of those other religions profess to be without sin and literally die on a cross so that you could be reconciled with God? I think not, but maybe I’m wrong as I’m not totally familiarized with Islam and Hinduism, especially. I know with Mormonism and Judaism this is not the case.
For those who think science proves G-d doesn’t exist, I have two words, Anthony Flew…
aye cchihuaha i bet the rooftop was apealing in chrismas playing santa? happy aniversary to your wife also
@SoCal Chris: The Mormons actually do believe that Jesus died on the cross to atone for the sins of man. They also believe in The New and Old Testament. They also believe in a bunch of very strange things. Of course, I find many religious beliefs to be very strange (no offense intended, they just seem strange to me).
If I might ask a personal question. Were raised in a Christian household or in the presence of other Christian beliefs?
@yonason: You understand that Flew converted from atheism to deism? He believes that the universe was created by some sort of entity. He does not, however, believe that there can be a supernatural revelation of that God, or any transaction between God and humans. He also doesn’t associate God with the idea of “good”. His God is unknowable and uncaring of his creation. Not the God of Abrahamic religion.
These videos didn’t have enough information in them, but they did make me curious about what he has to say. I will get his book and see what it has to offer. Must be uncommon for a lifelong atheist to change his point of view.
@cooter99: I think that is a fair set of questions. I personally have not been a Christian all my life. Didn’t grow up in a Christian household, and most of my family is pretty far from that. I didn’t mean it as an insult, that you still wouldn’t believe. It is what God says; he is the opener of hearts. Maybe you completely would; again that is where I believe it is a God issue.
A perfect example – I wasn’t searching for faith. My family is full of scientists, politicians, and engineers. I am a computer scientist (or whatever that means anymore) and have my degrees and certifications in that field. I am by nature, analytical and am definitely not the ’emotional’ type of personality. One night, God struck my heart down and I opened up this bible I had buried in my closet for years. Actually it was a youth bible a family friend gave my brother and I years and years ago. Had no idea where to read, so I started in Psalm. All I remember thinking is, ‘this was written for me’. From that point on, I realized that what God says is true: All of nature declares his name.
Why above Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc? Well there are many reasons depending on what faith you get into. That is where it becomes academically erroneous to lump religion together like that. I think the one thing they all have in common, is acknowledged faith and a God of some kind (but don’t we all? Even science has a god). That’s about where the comparisons end. The closest faith I could possibly relate to, is that of Judaism. Even religions that carbon copy points of Christianity (such as mormonism), are far from the mark. I believe Christ to be the Messiah that is spoken of in Isiah 53 (far before his birth), Daniel, Psalms, Genesis, etc. Judaism is still waiting on the messiah.
The thing about Christ is that He doesn’t fit into the box of our typical logic – or what we would expect. Judaism believes the messiah will come as possibly another King David. Jesus came as a homeless carpenter, He told some people not to tell of His miracles, He told us to pray for those that persecute us, He subjected Himself to death on a cross, and the first person to see him alive again was a woman (which was not a valid witness in court etc)… everything He did seemed very far from what you would expect. There are over 25,000 texts, manuscripts, etc that confirm His life and death. That is more evidence than almost any other document or person of that historical period and prior. However, Jesus did not come to abolish the old law, but to set a new covenant.
Either way, my life has been changed ever since. I didn’t try harder to be a ‘good’ person. In fact my flesh rebelled more. Instead of embracing that which will slip away, my eyes gained a new perspective. Its funny, when you’re born in prison, you make it your home. When a hero breaks you out, is it possible to compare the two existences? How would you explain it to a friend that is still bound up in chains? Your friend says, well if your God busts me out too, I would believe!
The bottom line is, I am happy with a Savior. He calls me to good things, He wants the best for me. Religion has done a great job of distorting this. I don’t walk around with a collar on and confess to a priest (no offense to those that do). I am a Jesus follower, saved by His grace alone, living each day to its maximum potential, and not worrying about what tomorrow brings. I believe He is in control, no matter how out of control things seem. I am redeemed and don’t deserve it.
@cooter99:
[The Mormons actually do believe that Jesus died on the cross to atone for the sins of man. They also believe in The New and Old Testament.]
cooter, you are correct, that if you were to ask someone of the Mormon faith if they believe Jesus died on the cross for man’s sins and in the Old and New Testament, they would say yes. I stand corrected on that. I’ve known some nice people who are Mormon, and spoken at length with the door-to-door Mormons, and just don’t usually hear about Christ’s sacrifice and what that means to us. So, that’s probably how I came up with that conclusion as it doesn’t seem to be the emphasis that I hear. And, the Old and New Testaments, not sure. Don’t they have their own version in the Book of Mormon, and mostly teach from that? Again, not sure, but yes I think they do believe in the validity of the Old and New Testaments, but refer mostly to the Book of Mormon perhaps.
[Were raised in a Christian household or in the presence of other Christian beliefs?]
No, I don’t mind the question, but the answer isn’t super straightforward. Yes, I was raised with parents who both had Christian upbringing themselves, so that was what they accepted as right for all of us, and I am grateful for that influence in my early years. We did go to Sunday School as young kids, but our household wasn’t what some would call super ‘religious’ per se. So, not so strict an upbringing in that way. (Personally, I see a distinct difference between religiosity and Christianity, but that’s a whole other topic entirely!) Although I’m not currently a member and don’t particularly like denominational differences as labels, I was raised in the Methodist church until I was a teenager.
Hope that answers your question!
@Liam: Thank you for saying how you came by your beliefs and for explaining how they affect your life. I always find it interesting to hear why people hold certain views of the world and especially to hear about radical changes to those views. I respect your beliefs even if I don’t agree with them. As long as a person is honestly happy and fulfilled by life, I think there are probably a number of “right” ways to look at things.
@SoCal Chris: Mormon’s believe the Book of Mormon to be divine scripture and equal to the Bible.
Thanks for the honest answer. Would you say your beliefs now are pretty similar to those you held as a church member? Or have they evolved due to your life’s experiences? Would you say you’ve adapted the religion to fit you?
I want to thank everyone for a lively and – most importantly – civil debate about religion. I’ve been involved in so many of these things that degenerate into rounds of disparaging remarks about one’s mother and ad hominem attacks that serve no purpose other than to make people feel bad. This has been a refreshing and informative discussion.
same for you COOTER99 you where also generous with your input that made all the difference among us thank you.
@cooter99:
I know. But it’s an enormous step in the right direction, and it proves that intellectuals do not universally reject the idea of G-d, and if anything they are slowly coming around to thinking like that. As I understand, at least some of the Founding Fathers were also Deists, and we probably owe much of our freedom to them. Imagine if they had considered it a sacrilege to go to battle on Christmas, as it appears the English did. Washington wouldn’t have crossed the Delaware and surprised them, and we might well have lost the Revolution. And we wouldn’t have had the religious freedom that is one of the hallmarks of America, setting it apart from the stifling religious oppression of the Europe we left.
@yonason: Agreed. Diversity breeds greatness. It’d be pretty boring if we all believed the same thing and couldn’t have intellectually stimulating debates about life’s deepest questions.
As to intellectuals coming around to a belief in God, I honestly don’t know. I feel strongly about my present beliefs, but I also have an open mind. We’ll see what the future brings.
@cooter99:
[@SoCal Chris: Mormon’s believe the Book of Mormon to be divine scripture and equal to the Bible.]
Yes, that is true, they do believe that.
[Thanks for the honest answer. Would you say your beliefs now are pretty similar to those you held as a church member? Or have they evolved due to your life’s experiences? Would you say you’ve adapted the religion to fit you?]
I don’t think this is probably the venue to go into a full discourse on my spiritual journey (except that I confess I’ve already stepped into the water), and I don’t want to bore everyone here! But, I do appreciate your honest, respectful questions. That’s the only way we can all learn and understand each other, eh? I’ll just try to simply reply that my core beliefs are pretty much the same as a youngster, yet I’m always growing in the knowledge of Christ and His grace through life’s experiences. But, instead of making it fit me, I’d say I’m being lovingly molded by the Master Potter to be more like Him! 🙂
@cooter99:
“I feel strongly about my present beliefs, but I also have an open mind. We’ll see what the future brings.”
Well said, and in a nation with no freedom, you would be able to do neither. G-d bless (and HELP) America!
Oh, and as I’m sure you realize, you should make NO changes without carefully considering all their ramifications. Just look where jumping at the bait of “hope and change” got us.
I will second the sentiment. I rarely get involved in these discussions anymore due to the direction that they usually end up going. They are rarely genuine and open. And by open, I do not mean converting or changing people. It seems that is what everyone sets out to do when they jot down a sentence. No one ‘converted’ me and I was not surrounded or influenced by Christians (exactly the opposite!). Anyway thanks for your insight and candor everyone. Specifically cooter, someone with a differing opinion, a refreshing exchange.
LIAM i have to say you where very convincing too i will say again i love FLOPPING ACES they bring up the best,thank you.
Cooter’s Question (#51):
“One question for you. Why do you believe in the faith of Christianity? Why not Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, or Mormonism (or any of the many others)? That’s one major reason that religion feels wrong to me. With so many belief systems all claiming to be “the one, true faith” I wonder how any of them can be true. I am aware that some faiths are accepting of others, but many faiths contend that belief in one is the only way to be saved. This makes me question all of them.”
This is closely related to your comment of God coming directly to you and saying, “I’m God, do you believe in Me now?” (I don’t have the quote exactly, but I hope that I have the gist of it).
Jesus Christ is God, which is the most fundamental difference between Christianity and everything else. He did come to this earth and He claimed to be God (“I and the Father are One” or “Before Abraham [lived], I am [i.e., I existed]”). He did come to this earth and some rejected Him and some believed in Him.
He fulfills the Old Testament prophecies. I put out a study on Genesis, and in the first 6 chapters, there are several references to Jesus and His sacrifice in those first 6 chapters. Even the “chosen” genealogy has hidden within it the gospel message.
And the clearest description of the cross and the meaning of the cross comes from Isaiah:
Isa 53:1 Who has believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Jehovah revealed?
Isa 53:2 For He comes up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; He has no form nor majesty that we should see Him, nor an appearance that we should desire Him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a Man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as it were a hiding of faces from Him, He being despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was on Him; and with His stripes we ourselves are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, each one to his own way; and Jehovah has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted; yet He opened not His mouth. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living; for the transgression of My people He was stricken.
Isa 53:9 And He put His grave with the wicked, and with a rich one in His death; although He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to crush Him; to grieve Him; that He should put forth His soul as a guilt-offering. He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the will of Jehovah shall prosper in His hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul. He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify for many; and He shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide to Him with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong; because He has poured out His soul to death; and He was counted among the transgressors; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for transgressors.
This was written around 700 BC and we have manuscripts which date back to 100 BC.
It is why many of us believe in Jesus Christ, because He is “the way, the truth and the life” and no one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6).
hi GARY i feel so humble when i notice some that posess the knowledge to give the proof on GOD being the suprime knowledge and wisdom thank you.
@Gary Kukis: Christians believe Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus. Jews believe it refers to Israel. This is an example of what I was generalizing in my previous statement.
All of these religious texts were written by humans many, many years ago (or not so many years ago in the case of The Book of Mormon.) Since then, they have been interpreted and re-interpreted, again by humans. Often, there is no consensus between different religious groups as to the proper interpretation of these ancient texts. One example is Isaiah 53. At least in this case, most Christians believe the former interpretation and most Jews the latter. In many cases though, there isn’t even consensus within the religion.
Take Christianity for example. There are an estimated 34,000 Christian denominations. Many of these vary only in name or location but adhere to the same interpretation of Scripture. Many, however, vary substantively in what they believe about Christ, God, etc. Some of them actively try to convert others with differing beliefs through missionary work.
My question is: How can they be so sure that their view is the correct one? (referring to all religions, not just Christianity) Some claim to have a personal relationship with God. Some were raised with these beliefs all their lives. Others find that one religion or denomination fits their personal belief system more fully. Some convert for the sake of another or even for financial or social reasons.
I have trouble believing in an omnipotent creator who would leave so many questions unanswered for so long. Especially when many of these different interpretations have led to unspeakable atrocities by one group of believers on another. So much violence has been done in the name of God. According to many religions, God is supposed to be an all-loving and beneficent creator who holds up man as his greatest creation (seems like God wouldn’t have a gender necessarily but I will use male terms for simplicity). I find the idea that God is mysterious so that only the faithful will come to be in his presence to indicate a sort of playfully malevolent creator. If God loved all people wholly and unabashedly, then why the big game. Does it entertain him? I find it unlikely that an omnipotent being would find any use for such distraction.
Sorry if that got a little lengthy. These are just some of the things I think about.
Cooter: (sorry for the length, just started writing and didn’t realize the length)
Wouldn’t you be a little worried if you knew the motives of God? If you were able to actually answer those questions? Questions like, why does an all loving God allow pain and suffering are completely legitimate. However lets remove God from the equation and ask: why does a guy kidnap a dating couple from college, call some of his buddies over, gang rape the guy, burn him, rape the girl, pour bleach down her throat, have burn her and then chop her up into pieces (real story)? I can’t think of anything like that in the animal kingdom; point being there are many questions like that (without even adding god), that are very difficult to even to begin to explain. They too are open books of questions attached to atrocities.
If it was easily answerable, philosophers would have nothing to discuss, and God would obviously be an invention of the human psyche. In addition, that poses an interesting question in and of itself: morality doesn’t fit into the survival of the fittest (and yes, I understand the arguments, and I disagree with them). Animals don’t give two shakes whether or not they hurt a neighbor, ate their own new born, or work their way up to the top by hurting others. If we too are a product of that, where was morality instilled in us? According to evolution, there are many animals that have existed /faaar/ longer than humans, however they still exhibit no moral conscious. The simple argument, I won’t take your home because I don’t want you to take mine or I am working in self preservation mode or in fight mode, doesn’t account for many dynamics of morally conscious animals that acknowledge their own existence in an objective way. And much less care about what happens when they die. Where they go.
As far as denominations go, the amount isn’t really significant of anything. I could start a ‘Church of Christ’ church (just throwing out a common name), be very reformed, have contemporary worship etc, but end up on that list. Am I different? Well maybe, but in what way? Maybe the way I conduct service etc.. but am I differing in my beliefs? Most Christians probably would feel right at home. So more than anything, that ‘denomination’ list that you looked up, is more of a list of churches. The definition of a ‘Christian’ isn’t left up in the air in terms of interpretation or by denomination. The Bible specifically lays out the definition. Most ‘Christian’ denominations are a cross or combination of Catholic to Reformed beliefs – I’m being simplistic here. In other words most legitimate (non-cult) denominations have significantly more in common than not. I am reformed in my views if you wanted to throw me in a category. However, I am not a block that fits into a square hole; I am very fundamental in my views that Christians should be using a reference for everything (the bible). I have done massive amounts of research on origin of texts, history, commentaries, and even spent way to much money in college on philosophy classes. I am glad I have a base of knowledge to pull from, but faith will always be intricately entangled in my views. Faith that since God does exist, why wouldn’t He preserve His word? Its not something I can convince anyone of, and is not a gift I can give. We could go over the dead sea scrolls and some of the earliest texts that were hidden, now found, do not drastically differ in interpretation or message than what we have today. And you know whats really cool? Most bibles will tell you what passages may have been translated or differed from some original sources. But that still won’t be a game changer for a typical atheist or non-believer. Its probably more academia than anything
Luther had problems with the Catholic church, Calvin had problems with where the church was going in the 16th century, but there is one common denominator: interpretation of scripture. It is easy to see where man takes over, and tries to shove God out of the way. For example, when the Catholic church was making it hard for the common man to know God; peasants had to pay retribution in the form of money for their current and future sins. However, does this change God and His message? Or was it the Catholic church (at that time) making it near impossible for laymen to read and understand the true message of grace for themselves (as all scripture was written in latin and had to be read by a priest)? Wasn’t that one of the things Christ was against? The pharisees that made God unobtainable to people like you and I? However, the priests weren’t reading a different bible, they were feature creeping in religion.
It sounds/seems like man and religion has influenced many of your questions and answers. The only way to figure things out, is to pick up a bible and read. Man will always corrupt. Man will always deceive. Churches will always be houses of hypocrites. However, we are all working out our salvation in service and love. Picking up those that fall, encouraging those that are troubled, and loving the unlovable. We are also receiving those things, because I for one, do not live a perfect life. For it is by grace that I am saved, and that is not of myself less anyone should boast. Grace would not be grace if you could earn it.
Beelover,
I sent you a message, but it got caught in the spam filter? I think you can reach me through my profile?
Hi, Cooter,
I tried posting a reply, and it did not show up, so I will try to post it again.
Jesus said of those who came to hear Him (the Jews), quoting from the Old Testament:
Mat 13:14 “Isaiah’s prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says: You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive.
Mat 13:15 For this people’s heart has grown callous; their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn back–and I would cure them.”
So, if you can hear, then please listen:
I have heard, of course, that Jews apply Isaiah 53 to themselves. It is because their hearts have become calloused.
Simply read this for yourself (written around 700 BC and we have manuscripts of this dating back to 100 BC):
Isa 53:5 But He was pierced because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; punishment for our peace was on Him, and we are healed by His wounds.
Judaism does not have the doctrine that they are somehow punished on our behalf, no matter what they say about this passage. You can read for yourself. Who does this passage seem to be speaking about?
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth. Like a lamb led to the slaughter and like a sheep silent before her shearers, He did not open His mouth.
Does that sound like Jesus or like the Jews? Don’t forget the history of Israel in 1967 before you answer.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him; He has put him to grief: when you shall make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of Yahweh shall prosper in His hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of Himself shall My righteous servant justify many; and He shall bear their iniquities.
Jesus is our offering for sin. It is Jesus Who justifies us; it is Jesus who bears our iniquities.
This is pretty easy to read and to understand in almost any English translation. My point is, even you, no matter what you choose to believe, can understand what this says. Saying, “So-and-so has this or that interpretation of this passage” is a copout. Read it for yourself.
Joh 9:33 If this man were not from God, He wouldn’t be able to do anything.”
Joh 9:34 “You were born entirely in sin,” they replied, “and are you trying to teach us?” Then they threw him out.
Joh 9:35 When Jesus heard that they had thrown the man out, He found him and asked, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
Joh 9:36 “Who is He, Sir, that I may believe in Him?” he asked.
Joh 9:37 Jesus answered, “You have seen Him; in fact, He is the One speaking with you.”
Joh 9:38 “I believe, Lord!” he said, and he worshiped Him.
Joh 9:39 Jesus said, “I came into this world for judgment, in order that those who do not see will see and those who do see will become blind.”
Joh 9:40 Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and asked Him, “We aren’t blind too, are we?”
People came face to face with God. Some believed in Him and some chose not to. God gives us free will, and believing in Jesus is a choice, not something you can be argued into.
Well, now both messages to Cooter are posted….
With regards to all of those questions, there are answers for most of them; and there are many believers who are not confused by all of the common theological questions. However, that all comes with taking the first step, which is faith in Jesus Christ. Apart from that, there are no real answers in this life.
hi Gary i try to go to your profile and as i was searching althought very multiples interestings post i could not find Gary so try to give me the message here i would like to know what you answer to my own comment,thank you.
Loraine i must come back to tell you about what has happen as you surely know the earthquake in Haiti and when i heard the terrible news i thought of what you had said but i also thought that maybe you have a gift of perception and you felt a great disater to happen and with your beleif you try to warn every one of it without knowing what is going to happen and where’ i have heard some other predicting some graves storm or other… and without coming to details with their own way of explaining they happen to be right the best to you thank you.
Hello, Bee Lover,
Let me try this one more time:
Here are two Bible lessons which begin a basic series:
http://kukis.org/MP3/1969Basics/
The lessons can be ordered without charge at this link:
http://www.rbthieme.org/
http://www.rbthieme.org/LessonListingForWeb.PDF
The first is the phone number, the second is the list of lessons (I recommend those from the 60’s and 70’s).
In the alternative, I recommend any of the following pastors (if none learn near you, most of them allow you to download lessons from their site):
http://kukis.org/Links/thelist.htm
I recommend these, because it appeared that you had a strong interest in careful Bible teaching, and these are some options. When I first became a Christian, I thought finding a good church would be an easy thing….it’s not! You might find a nice friendly church with a kind pastor, but the amount of teaching seems to be quite limited at times.
Gary Kukis thank you i appreciate your time and effort for me,
Gary, Nice statement of faith. I think you hit the nail on the head.