Todd Palin: Esquire’s “Man for America Now”

I can’t believe Todd hasn’t popped somone in the face after how his wife and family were treated. White trash? The leftwing nazi MEDIA are the white trash…..but we already knew that. And they seem so proud to be fascists. Assholes.

@Mike
Have you? So you are saying that Todd Palin was never a member of the Alaskan Independence Party?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/the-alaska-divi.html

@Aye

Fair points – I amend ‘campaigning’ to ’supporting’

“He spent years supporting a party that campaigns for his state to break away from the US.”

Do you agree with that?

I believe having membership in a party whose central goal in gaining independence means he agrees with that and supports it. Or are you naive to believe that it is not abundantly clear enough that being a member isn’t evidence enough.

And if he believed in that – then clearly he’s no patriot. My central point remains. By all means quibble over semantics all you want…the ball is back in your court.

@GaffaUK:

“He spent years supporting a party that campaigns for his state to break away from the US.”

It’s fair to say that Todd Palin was a member of the AIP.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Unless, of course, you can come up with some sort of proof that he actively campaigned for, or supported, specific planks in the party platform then you are grasping.

I believe having membership in a party whose central goal in gaining independence means he agrees with that and supports it. Or are you naive to believe that it is not abundantly clear enough that being a member isn’t evidence enough.

You’re really stretching there wouldn’t you say?

When one examines the platform of the AIP, it is easily discovered that it doesn’t say what you claim that it says.

Nowhere in there does the party platform advocate, or call for, breaking away from the US. The AIP originally called for the citizens of Alaska to have a choice “between statehood, commonwealth status, or complete separation — something they say has been granted to other U.S. territories such as Puerto Rico.”

Your claim about being in favor of “breaking away” is patently false. The AIP believes in freedom of choice and self-determination which is exactly what the Founders had in mind.

Just for fun, let’s take your faulty “membership = agreement and support” litmus test and apply it to two other political parties.

Can you say that just because someone is a member of the Democrat party that they are automatically pro-choice in terms of abortion?

Can you say that just because someone is a member of the Republican party that they are automatically pro-life?

Those are major elements in the planks of both of those parties but you would be hard pressed to prove that every member of the Dem or Rep party believes and supports every plank in the party platform.

In fact, the opposite is easily proven.

Faulty logic will lead you to produce faulty conclusions.

@GaffaUK:

I have proven what the AIP is all about. I linked the platform and other information from their site.

I went on to demonstrate to you how membership doesn’t automatically prove support for every plank in the platform.

Furthermore I proved that “independence” or “breaking away”, as you originally termed is, is NOT part of the platform.

I exposed your faulty logic and the faulty conclusions that resulted from it.

Yet you persist in making a fool of yourself.

The straws are in the kitchen drawer on the left. Feel free to take as many as you need.

Awww… be nice to Gaffa, Aye. Did you forget what a nightmare to the British soul having provinces declare independence is? To us, the AIP is a bunch of kooks. To a Brit, they are as bad as the IRA.

@Gaffa

Is Todd a current member of the AIP? If not, and if he did not commit crimes during his membership, then what freaking business are his past indiscretions of ours? I did and believed a lot of stupid and rash things when I was younger. Guess what? I learned from my mistakes, grew up and moved on. Todd did not sign a lifetime contract stating that he would dedicate his life to the AIP and all of it’s ideals. Kindly show what recent actions Todd has committed that cause you to associate him with his past. If you join the Communist Party, then you are a Communist. If you later quit the Commy Party, and no longer espouse their beliefs, then you are no longer a Communist. Pretty simple to understand really.

This is where Progressives stumble over past associations. They want to hang any conservative over his/her past, despite a lack of current connection. Then they want their own heroes to be excused their past associations, despite a very current and blatant continuation of the questionable behavior.

@GaffaUK:

Still spinning and gyrating I see.

Let me ask you something.

Do modern day Democrat party members support slavery because their party did?

Do modern day Democrat party members support segregation because their party did?

Do modern day Democrat party members support the KKK because their party did?

Are modern day Democrat party members opposed to civil rights because their party was?

Either every party member stands for everything the party supports or they don’t.

You cannot have it both ways.

It’s shame that we were having a pleasant debate but you had to ruin it by judging me a fool

Yellow feathers. Webbed feet. Funny walk. Duck.

When the shoe fits, wear it with pride.

The Declaration of Independence should give you a little insight on what the Founders thought about the ability of the People to decide what kind of government they live under.

I realize that may be a strange concept to those who wish to deprive others of free choice but that is your shortcoming.

We are self-governed here in the States.

We the People get to decide what the government does.

Not the other way around.

@Aye

The simple truth is that AIP continues to campaign for a vote on secession as they did in 1958 as they are doing today. The AIP does not reject Joe Vogler’s dream. In has it on it’s website – the very website you linked.lol

Does the Democrats continue to support slavery etc? Are they called Democrats Slavery Party? Nope. And to compare the AIP or any other nationalist or independence party to large broad parties like the Democrats or Republicans is either intellectually dishonest or naive. Or if you would say like a fool.

If I join the daylight saving for Queensland party – I can pretty much guarentee what they are campaigning about . http://www.ds4seq.org.au/. Can you guess?
And I didn’t have to dig very deep now to show you that the Alaskan Independence Party really does want Independence despite your anal retentive denial of the obvious.

Maybe Jefferson Davis should of got a public vote for secession.

@GaffaUK:

The point that you are willfully ignoring is that the American people generally, and Alaskans specifically have the right to decide what type of government they live under.

The People have that choice.

You’re jumping up and down and pointing fingers at a group of citizens who want to have a VOTE to decide what type of government is right for them.

That is their choice and their right.

You seem to be missing that either through willful ignorance, omission, intellectual dishonesty, or naivete.

You still haven’t proven your original thesis that Todd Palin specifically supported secession or “breaking away.”

What the AIP wants is for the citizens of Alaska to have a choice and a vote.

Nothing more.

Nothing less.

Even if Todd Palin did support the citizens of Alaska having a vote, and you haven’t proven it, but even if he did, so what? What’s the big deal? Self government and freedom of choice is a distinctly American idea. I guess that is why you have such difficulty wrapping your mind around it.

Again, I encourage you to read the Declaration of Independence.

For that matter, you should read up on the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution and the number of states whose legislatures have already passed bills regarding state sovreignty.

That ought to really make your liberal head explode.

As to the daylight saving for Queensland party and what they stand for, quite frankly I don’t give a furry rat’s ass. That’s in Australia. It doesn’t matter to me. I am unaffected by it and it’s not worth my time.

@Gaffa

Show me the Todd Palin quotes calling for secession. Show me how he has rammed secessionist legislation through the Alaska governmental process. Perhaps you do not understand how we do things on this side of the pond. Do the words “innocent until proven guilty” ring a bell? I can present evidence that Obama is still a Statist and a Leftist all day long. Somehow I get the feeling that you do not have any actual facts to back up your claim about Todd.

Three angels dancing on a pinhead…

Okay I’ll play along…

It’s possible that the Alaskan Independence Party no longer supports secession from the US and they only want a vote on the issue – and that they happened to forget to change the name of their party and they happened to forget to update their website when they explicitly say that the call for this vote to further the dream of Joe Vogler who wanted to achieve independence. Possibly but unlikely.

It’s possible that you can have an independence party who is calling for a vote on secession just for the hell of it – or reconfirm their commitment to the Union – whilst they absolutely have no agenda or preference for ultimate secession themselves. Possibly but unlikely.

It’s possible that Todd Palin was politically naive at 30 years old and didn’t realise that joining an independence party ment the money he put towards such a party in membership fees would go towards campaigning to get a vote on secession. Possibly but unlikely.

It’s possible that Todd Palin loves the US so much that he thinks Alaska is holding the US back and the US would be better without it. Or it’s possible that he is a spy for another party. Or that he joined because he liked the people in the organisation but didn’t agree with their views on secession. Possibly but unlikely.

It’s possible that Todd Palin did want Alaska to leave the Union for at least seven years but then he suddenly changed his mind 180 degrees and now he’s a firm advocate of the Union – irrespective that his wife became Governor of Alaska. Possibly but unlikely.

It’s possible that the majority of rightwing commentators on here think that the history of spouses of political figures is totally not relevant. Possibly but unlikely.

btw. I have no problem that people in the US or outside are campaigning for independence for their region in the country they currently live in. Nothing wrong with that. I’m just saying it’s not patriotic to that existing country. So all your blather on the constitution etc is actually irrelevant to my point.

Is it so hard to concede that Todd Palin was likely for a period of time to support a political party that wanted to ultimately break away from the US and achieve independence?

Keep on dancing

@blast:

What if it was not a secessionist group but a communist group?

Well, you had no problem voting for, and supporting, a full fledged member of the socialist New Party back in November so, what’s your point?

Anyone who supports a group that seeks to dissolve the Union is anti-American to me.

You should spend some more time studying the Founders.

Aye, you are funny. “socialist new party.”

Are you disputing Obama’s membership in the New Party?

I have studied the founders and also history

You claim to have studied the Founders yet you make rather ignorant statements about what the Founders believed.

I think those Alaskans separatists just want more welfare… more of that free oil money to dole out to all those on the teet.

Wow, I love the way you bash your fellow Americans. So classy.

Tell me something. If you’re so concerned with how many people are on the teat (that’s the correct spelling, by the way) then how in the world do you square that with your unquestioning and blindly loyal support of Obie when he clearly intends to, and has, expanded the government welfare dole?

Aren’t you a loyal American?

I’m a firm believer in States Rights.

I’m a firm believer in Original Intent.

When/if the time ever comes where a state decides that they want to secede from the union that is their right as established by the Founders.

@blast:

Your “original intent” is anther’s activist judge, so spare me the supreme attitude of your firm beliefs.

Yeah.

Here’s a quote from activist judge Thomas Jefferson:

“If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union, or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it.”

Another from TJ:

“If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation … to a continuance in the union …. I have no hesitation in saying, ‘Let us separate.’”

The delegates at the Virginia ratification convention:

“The powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression.”

James Madison in Federalist 39:

“the people…not as individuals composing one entire nation, but as composing the distinct and independent States to which they respectively belong.”

James Madison in Federalist 45:

“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.”

Those darned activist judges.

They’re everywhere, aren’t they blast?

Don’t look now but your ignorance is showing.

Aye, I believe that blast is correct INRE states yielding the right to secession. The Federalists, in so many debates, were not crystal clear but made it quite plain this was to be more than a pact between differing states in order to become a union. It wasn’t a membership that could be revoked at a whim.

Even James Madison did not believe secession to be a Constitutional right. Per Madison’s letter to Daniel Webster in The Founders Constitution docs:

I return my thanks for the copy of your late very powerful Speech in the Senate of the United S. It crushes “nullification” and must hasten the abandonment of “Secession.” But this dodges the blow by confounding the claim to secede at will, with the right of seceding from intolerable oppression. The former answers itself, being a violation, without cause, of a faith solemnly pledged. The latter is another name only for revolution, about which there is no theoretic controversy.

You should read the whole thing.

Secession, while not considered Constitutional, has nothing to do with the absolute right to revolution when federal government becomes so oppressive as to morally justify it. And I would guess that the preceding sentence really lands me on the DHS “list”…. LOL

@blast:

If you look you will find that during the debates around the Constitution and ratification addressed concerns that it was a permanent union.

You’re right. The issue was heavily debated and discussed and the concensus was that the states retained the right to secede.

The Constitution was laid out with the intention that the relationship between the states function as a confederation with each state remaining, in Jefferson’s words “Free and Independent States.”

You quote Jefferson, he was not even in North America during the drafting or ratification of the Constitution. When did he make those comments?

The first quote comes from his first Inaugural.

The second is from an 1816 letter to William Crawford in relation to New Englanders desire to secede.

Here’s a quote from an 1825 letter to William Branch Giles:

[we should] “separate from our companions only when the sole alternatives left, are the dissolution of our Union with them, or submission to a government without limitation of powers. [But] between these two evils, when we must make a choice, there can be no hesitation.”

As to the Constitution… you still have not pointed out where it gives states the right to leave… it provides for states to join, not leave.

The Constitution was designed for the purpose of granting powers to the fed gov’t. Any power not explicitly given to the fed gov’t remains with the states. That is the reason that we have the 9th and 10th Amendments.

The Constitution doesn’t address secession one way or the other. It doesn’t say that states can if they wish, nor does the Constitution give the fed gov’t any power to prevent secession.

Jefferson would presumably say that the principle of constitutional self government presupposes the right to secede, therefore there is no need to spell it out.

The principles involved in the formation, and maintenance of the Confederation, made it clear that the individual states had the right to remove themselves if they wished.

I tend to take their understanding of “original intent” than yours here some 140 years after the fact.

In other words, you take the word of activist judges whose decision flies in the face of the Founders own words and intentions because those judges happen to agree with your point of view.

How convenient.

So why didn’t the US allow the South to secede from the Union if it’s a state’s democratic right to do so? Is Jefferson Davis a fine patriot?

[COMMENT DELETED BY POST MODERATOR]

Around and around and around we go. I’ll repeat myself. Provide proof positive that Todd supported the secession plank. Otherwise, you are just pasting your own imagination over a man’s thought process that we have no facts about. Since he left the AIP, it is just as likely as any other idea that he left BECAUSE of the secession plank. It is also just as likely that he supported it until he thought about it for awhile and realized the deeper implications. You seem hellbent on proving that merely belonging to the AIP is proof positive of iron clad secessionism. Yet you completely ignore the fact that he left the AIP, which in your less than rock solid logic should mean that he hates secession so strongly that he will kill anyone who calls for it on sight.

I’m sorry Gaffa, even you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

@Gaffa

“If a person is a member of the KKK you would consider them a white supremacist?
If a person is a member of the Communist party would consider them a Communist?
If a person is a member of Al Qaeda would consider them a terrorist?”

While they are members of, and in public agreement with the stated aims of such organizations, then yes. If they leave such organizations and have no more to do with them, and do not show support for the goals and values of such organizations, then it behooves us to take them at their word, even if cautiously, that they are not what they once were or mistakenly thought themselves to be. Also, it is disingenuous to compare the AIP with those organizations, simply because their stated goals and beliefs are very clear cut and spelled out in big flaming block letters for all the world to see. The secession plank of the AIP is a footnote hidden amidst dozens of other ideas and beliefs, and I doubt that AIP meeting involve swearing any mystical blood oaths to rip Alaska from the union or die trying.

You yourself agree that even if he once had secessionist tendencies, he no longer has them. So what in tarnation is your beef with Todd Palin? Are you advocating that society must make it’s mission to unearth, exhume, illuminate, and punish the sins, no matter how goofy or trivial, of each and every single individual’s sordid past? Should your boss fire you today because you stole a candy bar at age 12? Should each person that muttered or shouted a racial epithet 20 years ago be thrown in prison for hate crimes? Should each and every spouse sue for divorce upon discovering that their wife or husband was unfaithful years before the married couple even met? What exactly is the point of your attacks upon a man whom you yourself admit has changed his behavior and his philosophy? I still say that it is 50/50 whether he left the AIP because he changed, or because he actually learned that what they stand for was not what he believed. You are basically assuming all sorts of knowledge that you have no earthly way of knowing, and you are condemning a man with circumstantial evidence.