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liberaldude
15 years ago
Lol, right! He’s married to Sarah isn’t he? He gets away with refusing to testify State investigation. What a patriot. What white trash.
This is the guy that spent years campaigning for his state to break away from the US? Is that what’s makes a Patriot these days?
joyce
15 years ago
I can’t believe Todd hasn’t popped somone in the face after how his wife and family were treated. White trash? The leftwing nazi MEDIA are the white trash…..but we already knew that. And they seem so proud to be fascists. Assholes.
@GaffaUK: Haven’t we already determined that you were terribly misinformed by the mainstream media regarding the Palins? Do you really want to continue embarrassing yourself by repeating those shopworn socialist shibboleths?
@joyce: Don’t sugarcoat it. Tell us what you really think! I love it!
Larry Sheldon
15 years ago
I am a Palin fan.
But a slow one. After all of this it just a moment occurred to me!
PALIN/PALIN for Pres and VP in 2011!
(Which is which? I’m guessing Sarah/Todd would be the best.)
Fair points – I amend ‘campaigning’ to ‘supporting’
“He spent years supporting a party that campaigns for his state to break away from the US.”
Do you agree with that?
I believe having membership in a party whose central goal in gaining independence means he agrees with that and supports it. Or are you naive to believe that it is not abundantly clear enough that being a member isn’t evidence enough.
And if he believed in that – then clearly he’s no patriot. My central point remains. By all means quibble over semantics all you want…the ball is back in your court.
southernsue
15 years ago
gaff.
shut up. you are so stupid. go somewhere else with your tripe. i am fed up with people like you.
you and your ilk are why we are in this mess. like your side has said, you are in control now, so why do you want to trash good american people like the palins? oh yes, i know, because she is like holy water to your demonrat party so go away to the other websites that support your drivel.
“He spent years supporting a party that campaigns for his state to break away from the US.”
It’s fair to say that Todd Palin was a member of the AIP.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
Unless, of course, you can come up with some sort of proof that he actively campaigned for, or supported, specific planks in the party platform then you are grasping.
I believe having membership in a party whose central goal in gaining independence means he agrees with that and supports it. Or are you naive to believe that it is not abundantly clear enough that being a member isn’t evidence enough.
You’re really stretching there wouldn’t you say?
When one examines the platform of the AIP, it is easily discovered that it doesn’t say what you claim that it says.
Your claim about being in favor of “breaking away” is patently false. The AIP believes in freedom of choice and self-determination which is exactly what the Founders had in mind.
Just for fun, let’s take your faulty “membership = agreement and support” litmus test and apply it to two other political parties.
Can you say that just because someone is a member of the Democrat party that they are automatically pro-choice in terms of abortion?
Can you say that just because someone is a member of the Republican party that they are automatically pro-life?
Those are major elements in the planks of both of those parties but you would be hard pressed to prove that every member of the Dem or Rep party believes and supports every plank in the party platform.
In fact, the opposite is easily proven.
Faulty logic will lead you to produce faulty conclusions.
lol – c’mon. Alaskan INDEPENDENCE Party.
What more do you need to know?
The Democrat & Republican parties represent a wide church of views as you know.
If I strongly believe in the union of the UK – but I liked the Scottish National Party view on local taxes I still wouldn’t join them as their CENTRAL goal is to gain independence. Of course the AIP like any good independence party will try to achieve their ends by any means – even if that means by degrees – like getting a poll on seperation.
I’m sorry but that really doesn’t rub. I guess if I join the Communist party that doesn’t make me a communist?
1) Why would a political party want to call for a vote on whether to remain as a state or not?
If you are in favour of Alaska remaining as a state you wouldn’t join an INDEPENDENCE party.
2) And if the party isn’t in favour of independence they why have it in it’s name
3) Check out it’s goals
The call for this vote is in furtherance of the dream of the Alaskan Independence Party’s founding father, Joe Vogler, which was for Alaskans to achieve independence under a minimal government, fully responsive to the people, promoting a peaceful and lawful means of resolving differences.
Amazing not only do you discount that a person who joins an independence party isn’t necessarily looking independence – but you are now claiming that even the political party itself isn’t looking for independence. lol
In 2006, members of the AIP collected the one hundred signatures needed to place on the fall ballot an initiative calling for Alaska to secede from the union or, if that was found not to be legally possible, directing the state to work to make secession legal. However, in the case of Kohlhaas v. State (11/17/2006) sp-6072, 147 P3d 714, the State Supreme Court ruled any attempt at secession to be unconstitutional and the initiative was not approved to appear on the fall ballot
Just coincidence I guess that it is AIP members wanting to make secession legal. Of course not they would actually want to Alaska to secede from the US now would they?
You get to think why the hell do I owe them anything and then you get mad; and you say to hell with them; and you renounce allegiance; and you pledge your efforts, your effects, your honor, your life, to Alaska; that is how I do it; I am an Alaskan; they know it; I’ve told them to go to hell in every way I can in a nice way; I took a case to the Supreme Court believing in the Supreme Court, but I’d rather be tried in a whorehouse with the madam as the Judge; there is more Justice in a whorehouse than in the Supreme Court; and if they don’t like they know where they can go; ….. and if you think I am ever going to forget that, the fires of Hell are glaciers compared to my hate for the American Government, and I won’t be buried under their damn flag; I’ll be buried in Dawson and when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones back to Alaska, back to my country.
Quote from Joe Volger – founder of AIP. Still got your doubts? lol
On reflection I’m prepared to give Sarah Palin the benefit of the doubt as although it is has been reported she has gone to at least one of their conventions and she warmly welcomed them a few years back – she wasn’t a member. Todd doesn’t have that excuse. He was for many years a member of an INDEPENDENCE party that’s goal was and still is to get secession onto a ballot. That’s no act of a patriot.
It’s shame that we were having a pleasant debate but you had to ruin it by judging me a fool and making one of your lame straw remarks.
When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck
James Whitcomb Riley
Lightbringer
15 years ago
Awww… be nice to Gaffa, Aye. Did you forget what a nightmare to the British soul having provinces declare independence is? To us, the AIP is a bunch of kooks. To a Brit, they are as bad as the IRA.
@Gaffa
Is Todd a current member of the AIP? If not, and if he did not commit crimes during his membership, then what freaking business are his past indiscretions of ours? I did and believed a lot of stupid and rash things when I was younger. Guess what? I learned from my mistakes, grew up and moved on. Todd did not sign a lifetime contract stating that he would dedicate his life to the AIP and all of it’s ideals. Kindly show what recent actions Todd has committed that cause you to associate him with his past. If you join the Communist Party, then you are a Communist. If you later quit the Commy Party, and no longer espouse their beliefs, then you are no longer a Communist. Pretty simple to understand really.
This is where Progressives stumble over past associations. They want to hang any conservative over his/her past, despite a lack of current connection. Then they want their own heroes to be excused their past associations, despite a very current and blatant continuation of the questionable behavior.
If not, and if he did not commit crimes during his membership, then what freaking business are his past indiscretions of ours?
Oh does this go for everybody then Lightbringer?
I did and believed a lot of stupid and rash things when I was younger. Guess what? I learned from my mistakes, grew up and moved on. Todd did not sign a lifetime contract stating that he would dedicate his life to the AIP and all of it’s ideals.
Yeah – he was between 30 and 37 – so hardly a naive teenager. And I wonder if he left as not to embarrass his wife.
Kindly show what recent actions Todd has committed that cause you to associate him with his past.
I don’t need to. People including Obama is judged on their past and associations (Ayers anyone?)
If you join the Communist Party, then you are a Communist. If you later quit the Commy Party, and no longer espouse their beliefs, then you are no longer a Communist. Pretty simple to understand really.
lol – yeah and if Michelle Obama once was a member of the Commy PArty do you think the Right would make a deal out of that.
This is where Progressives stumble over past associations. They want to hang any conservative over his/her past, despite a lack of current connection. Then they want their own heroes to be excused their past associations, despite a very current and blatant continuation of the questionable behavior.
Of course you would never hang a liberal over his/her past now would you? lol
Do modern day Democrat party members support slavery because their party did?
Do modern day Democrat party members support segregation because their party did?
Do modern day Democrat party members support the KKK because their party did?
Are modern day Democrat party members opposed to civil rights because their party was?
Either every party member stands for everything the party supports or they don’t.
You cannot have it both ways.
It’s shame that we were having a pleasant debate but you had to ruin it by judging me a fool
Yellow feathers. Webbed feet. Funny walk. Duck.
When the shoe fits, wear it with pride.
The Declaration of Independence should give you a little insight on what the Founders thought about the ability of the People to decide what kind of government they live under.
I realize that may be a strange concept to those who wish to deprive others of free choice but that is your shortcoming.
We are self-governed here in the States.
We the People get to decide what the government does.
Not the other way around.
Lightbringer
15 years ago
@Gaffa
Regarding the past associations of Obama and other Democrats. You might want to reread my post. I mentioned several times that for past indiscretions to be left in the past, one has to cease the association or behavior. I do not pounce on Barry for being a pot smoking cokehead, and any Conservatives who do need to read my words as much as you do. As for his association with Bill Ayers, I have yet to hear Obama denounce the scumbag. I have yet to hear Ayers denounce his terrorist ways. “We didn’t bomb enough”, (or words to that effect) come to mind.
I try to judge current actions and words, and then put them into a broader perspective in relation to past associations. It is not my fault that so many “Progressives” continue to act in accordance with their past declarations. I point out the same fallacy of tying past associations to people who no longer exhibit such behavior to conservatives as well as liberals.
The simple truth is that AIP continues to campaign for a vote on secession as they did in 1958 as they are doing today. The AIP does not reject Joe Vogler’s dream. In has it on it’s website – the very website you linked.lol
Does the Democrats continue to support slavery etc? Are they called Democrats Slavery Party? Nope. And to compare the AIP or any other nationalist or independence party to large broad parties like the Democrats or Republicans is either intellectually dishonest or naive. Or if you would say like a fool.
If I join the daylight saving for Queensland party – I can pretty much guarentee what they are campaigning about . http://www.ds4seq.org.au/. Can you guess?
And I didn’t have to dig very deep now to show you that the Alaskan Independence Party really does want Independence despite your anal retentive denial of the obvious.
Maybe Jefferson Davis should of got a public vote for secession.
The point that you are willfully ignoring is that the American people generally, and Alaskans specifically have the right to decide what type of government they live under.
The People have that choice.
You’re jumping up and down and pointing fingers at a group of citizens who want to have a VOTE to decide what type of government is right for them.
That is their choice and their right.
You seem to be missing that either through willful ignorance, omission, intellectual dishonesty, or naivete.
You still haven’t proven your original thesis that Todd Palin specifically supported secession or “breaking away.”
What the AIP wants is for the citizens of Alaska to have a choice and a vote.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
Even if Todd Palin did support the citizens of Alaska having a vote, and you haven’t proven it, but even if he did, so what? What’s the big deal? Self government and freedom of choice is a distinctly American idea. I guess that is why you have such difficulty wrapping your mind around it.
Again, I encourage you to read the Declaration of Independence.
For that matter, you should read up on the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution and the number of states whose legislatures have already passed bills regarding state sovreignty.
That ought to really make your liberal head explode.
As to the daylight saving for Queensland party and what they stand for, quite frankly I don’t give a furry rat’s ass. That’s in Australia. It doesn’t matter to me. I am unaffected by it and it’s not worth my time.
@GaffaUK: I see you have just dug in your high heels and are being your usual stubborn self.
I have previously described how you allowed distortions regarding the Palin’s to color your understanding of them as it suits your personal prejudices. That is exactly what you are doing here.
Get over it.
There is simply NO EVIDENCE to suggest that Todd Palin supported secession and even the claim that it was the AIP’s sole aim to do so is a distortion. The AIP has more to do with assuring that the federal government respects the original statehood statehood agreement and the state’s rights of Alaska citizens.
I understand you prefer this transparent distractions to any consideration of the example the Palin family represents but continuing to wallow in a smear campaign only makes you look trite and small.
P.S. As a native born citizen of the first state in the Union ever to secede I take these states rights matters pretty seriously. But I doubt you would find anything approaching majority support in Alaska for the more radical approach of some AIP members.
Lightbringer
15 years ago
@Gaffa
Show me the Todd Palin quotes calling for secession. Show me how he has rammed secessionist legislation through the Alaska governmental process. Perhaps you do not understand how we do things on this side of the pond. Do the words “innocent until proven guilty” ring a bell? I can present evidence that Obama is still a Statist and a Leftist all day long. Somehow I get the feeling that you do not have any actual facts to back up your claim about Todd.
@Lightbringer: Gaffa seems to believe everything he reads. Despite the fact that it’s been proven to him that the negative reporting about the Palin’s has been WRONG he still persists.
It’s possible that the Alaskan Independence Party no longer supports secession from the US and they only want a vote on the issue – and that they happened to forget to change the name of their party and they happened to forget to update their website when they explicitly say that the call for this vote to further the dream of Joe Vogler who wanted to achieve independence. Possibly but unlikely.
It’s possible that you can have an independence party who is calling for a vote on secession just for the hell of it – or reconfirm their commitment to the Union – whilst they absolutely have no agenda or preference for ultimate secession themselves. Possibly but unlikely.
It’s possible that Todd Palin was politically naive at 30 years old and didn’t realise that joining an independence party ment the money he put towards such a party in membership fees would go towards campaigning to get a vote on secession. Possibly but unlikely.
It’s possible that Todd Palin loves the US so much that he thinks Alaska is holding the US back and the US would be better without it. Or it’s possible that he is a spy for another party. Or that he joined because he liked the people in the organisation but didn’t agree with their views on secession. Possibly but unlikely.
It’s possible that Todd Palin did want Alaska to leave the Union for at least seven years but then he suddenly changed his mind 180 degrees and now he’s a firm advocate of the Union – irrespective that his wife became Governor of Alaska. Possibly but unlikely.
It’s possible that the majority of rightwing commentators on here think that the history of spouses of political figures is totally not relevant. Possibly but unlikely.
btw. I have no problem that people in the US or outside are campaigning for independence for their region in the country they currently live in. Nothing wrong with that. I’m just saying it’s not patriotic to that existing country. So all your blather on the constitution etc is actually irrelevant to my point.
Is it so hard to concede that Todd Palin was likely for a period of time to support a political party that wanted to ultimately break away from the US and achieve independence?
Are you disputing Obama’s membership in the New Party?
I have studied the founders and also history
You claim to have studied the Founders yet you make rather ignorant statements about what the Founders believed.
I think those Alaskans separatists just want more welfare… more of that free oil money to dole out to all those on the teet.
Wow, I love the way you bash your fellow Americans. So classy.
Tell me something. If you’re so concerned with how many people are on the teat (that’s the correct spelling, by the way) then how in the world do you square that with your unquestioning and blindly loyal support of Obie when he clearly intends to, and has, expanded the government welfare dole?
Aren’t you a loyal American?
I’m a firm believer in States Rights.
I’m a firm believer in Original Intent.
When/if the time ever comes where a state decides that they want to secede from the union that is their right as established by the Founders.
Your “original intent” is anther’s activist judge, so spare me the supreme attitude of your firm beliefs.
Yeah.
Here’s a quote from activist judge Thomas Jefferson:
“If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union, or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it.”
Another from TJ:
“If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation … to a continuance in the union …. I have no hesitation in saying, ‘Let us separate.'”
The delegates at the Virginia ratification convention:
“The powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression.”
James Madison in Federalist 39:
“the people…not as individuals composing one entire nation, but as composing the distinct and independent States to which they respectively belong.”
James Madison in Federalist 45:
“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.”
Aye, I believe that blast is correct INRE states yielding the right to secession. The Federalists, in so many debates, were not crystal clear but made it quite plain this was to be more than a pact between differing states in order to become a union. It wasn’t a membership that could be revoked at a whim.
I return my thanks for the copy of your late very powerful Speech in the Senate of the United S. It crushes “nullification” and must hasten the abandonment of “Secession.” But this dodges the blow by confounding the claim to secede at will, with the right of seceding from intolerable oppression. The former answers itself, being a violation, without cause, of a faith solemnly pledged. The latter is another name only for revolution, about which there is no theoretic controversy.
You should read the whole thing.
Secession, while not considered Constitutional, has nothing to do with the absolute right to revolution when federal government becomes so oppressive as to morally justify it. And I would guess that the preceding sentence really lands me on the DHS “list”…. LOL
blast, your #31 comment is so off base about Todd Palin and reasons many of the native Alaskans find secession appealing in their AIP. They are not, however, a single issue party. You might as well say that all members of the GOP are Christian and anti-abortion.
Fact is Alaska has little in common with the lower 48. Bounded by foreign nations, and with a more hostile climate, they believe… and quite rightly… that most of US laws are not necessarily appropriate for their way of life. Then again, that’s why there is the 10th Amendment… to deal with those territorial needs. As the 10th Amendment rights erode, any separatist movement will grow exponentially stronger.
And, BTW, that remark about “wanting more welfare” was extremely offensive. They are far more independent than denizens of Chicago.
If you look you will find that during the debates around the Constitution and ratification addressed concerns that it was a permanent union.
You’re right. The issue was heavily debated and discussed and the concensus was that the states retained the right to secede.
The Constitution was laid out with the intention that the relationship between the states function as a confederation with each state remaining, in Jefferson’s words “Free and Independent States.”
You quote Jefferson, he was not even in North America during the drafting or ratification of the Constitution. When did he make those comments?
The first quote comes from his first Inaugural.
The second is from an 1816 letter to William Crawford in relation to New Englanders desire to secede.
Here’s a quote from an 1825 letter to William Branch Giles:
[we should] “separate from our companions only when the sole alternatives left, are the dissolution of our Union with them, or submission to a government without limitation of powers. [But] between these two evils, when we must make a choice, there can be no hesitation.”
As to the Constitution… you still have not pointed out where it gives states the right to leave… it provides for states to join, not leave.
The Constitution was designed for the purpose of granting powers to the fed gov’t. Any power not explicitly given to the fed gov’t remains with the states. That is the reason that we have the 9th and 10th Amendments.
The Constitution doesn’t address secession one way or the other. It doesn’t say that states can if they wish, nor does the Constitution give the fed gov’t any power to prevent secession.
Jefferson would presumably say that the principle of constitutional self government presupposes the right to secede, therefore there is no need to spell it out.
The principles involved in the formation, and maintenance of the Confederation, made it clear that the individual states had the right to remove themselves if they wished.
I tend to take their understanding of “original intent” than yours here some 140 years after the fact.
In other words, you take the word of activist judges whose decision flies in the face of the Founders own words and intentions because those judges happen to agree with your point of view.
Aye, I do not see that they intended the Constitution to emulate a “confederacy” at all. The CSA Constitution differed mostly by placing emphasis on states as individual “sovereign” and independent characters… probably for this issue of permanance.
In fact, if you read Jefferson’s notes, it seems that having the dual Congressional chambers was part of the resolution between those advocating for “union”, and those advocating for “confederacy”.
Then, of course, Lincoln obviously believed in an indestructable union. This was affirmed by the SCOTUS via in Texas v White in 1869.
All in all, interesting discussion. But I’ll bet you’ll find many from the era that stood on opposite sides of the fence. However one would think the SCOTUS opinion would settle the argument once and for all, based on our government structure.
@GaffaUK: Would you mind explaining to me how that has anything to do with Todd Palin? I realize I let things get off topic but it’s time to rein it in.
If anyone wants to comment on the idea that “The South Shall Rise Again” they should save it for my tax day protest post coming up shortly.
Sure Palin was a member of the AIP. At least nobody seems to dispute that.
The AIP is calling for a vote on secession.
I question whether people who wish to have their state secede from the union are patriotic or not. Now Thomas Jefferson quotes were interesting but as MataHarley & Blast said actually that doesn’t seem to be a feasible option. And the South clearly want to break away. So who’s right – Thomas Jefferson, Lincoln or Jefferson Davis? Which brought me to my question over wether Jefferson Davis was a patriot of the US or not. And IF (and I think being a member of an INDEPENDENCE party is evidence) Todd was/is wanting seperation does that make him a patriot?
Put it this way – if a Scottish person wanted to break away from the UK – as some do. Then good for them and there was a vote on devolution (the half-way house towards independence). They may be patriots for Scotland but they wouldn’t in my opinion be patriotic for the existing politically union of the UK.
@GaffaUK: You simply PERSIST in distorting the AIP don;’t you?
Here’s their platform:
To effect full compliance with the constitutions of the United States of America and the State of Alaska.
To support and defend States’ Rights, Individual Rights, Property Rights, and the Equal Footing Doctrine as guaranteed by the constitutions of the United States of America and the state of Alaska.
To advocate the convening of a State Constitutional Convention at the constitutionally designated 10 year interval.
To reinforce the unalienable rights endowed by our Creator to Alaska law, by eliminating the use of the word “privilege” in the Alaska statutes.
To amend the Constitution of the State of Alaska so as to re-establish the rights of all Alaskan residents to entry upon all public lands within the state, and to acquire private property interest there in, under fair and reasonable conditions. Such property interest shall include surface and sub-surface patent.
To foster a constitutional amendment abolishing and prohibiting all property taxes.
To seek the complete repatriation of the public lands, held by the federal government, to the state and people of Alaska in conformance with Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17, of the federal constitution.
To prohibit all bureaucratic regulations and judicial rulings purporting to have the effect of law, except that which shall be approved by the elected legislature.
To preserve and protect the Alaska Permanent Fund, Permanent fund earnings, earnings reserve fund and individual Permanent Fund Dividends.
To provide for the direct popular election of the attorney general, all judges, and magistrates.
To provide for the development of unrestricted, statewide, surface transportation and utility corridors as needed by the public or any individual.
To affirm and assert every possible right-of-way established under R.S. 2477 of July 26, 1866, before its repeal by the Federal Land Management Policy Act of October 21, 1976.
To support the right of the individual to keep and bear arms.
To support the complete abolition of the concept of sovereign or governmental immunity, so as to restore accountability for public servants.
To support the rights of parents to privately or home school their children.
To support the privatization of government services.
To oppose the borrowing of money by government for any purposes other than for capital improvements.
To strengthen the traditional family and support individual accountability without government interference or regulation.
To support the right of jurors to judge the law as well as the facts, according to their conscience.
To support “Jobs for Alaskans…First!”
I agree with 92.64% of that. But I don’t support secession. Am I unpatriotic too?
You can support 92.64% – a lot no doubt has in common with the Republican party. However unlike the AIP you DONT support secession so your patriotism in intact.
Lightbringer
15 years ago
Around and around and around we go. I’ll repeat myself. Provide proof positive that Todd supported the secession plank. Otherwise, you are just pasting your own imagination over a man’s thought process that we have no facts about. Since he left the AIP, it is just as likely as any other idea that he left BECAUSE of the secession plank. It is also just as likely that he supported it until he thought about it for awhile and realized the deeper implications. You seem hellbent on proving that merely belonging to the AIP is proof positive of iron clad secessionism. Yet you completely ignore the fact that he left the AIP, which in your less than rock solid logic should mean that he hates secession so strongly that he will kill anyone who calls for it on sight.
I’m sorry Gaffa, even you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Put it this way…
If a person is a member of the KKK you would consider them a white supremacist?
If a person is a member of the Communist party would consider them a Communist?
If a person is a member of Al Qaeda would consider them a terrorist?
And I’m not saying he is a seperatist today -I said he
spent years supporting a party that campaigns for his state to break away from the US.
See past tense…
Lightbringer
15 years ago
@Gaffa
“If a person is a member of the KKK you would consider them a white supremacist?
If a person is a member of the Communist party would consider them a Communist?
If a person is a member of Al Qaeda would consider them a terrorist?”
While they are members of, and in public agreement with the stated aims of such organizations, then yes. If they leave such organizations and have no more to do with them, and do not show support for the goals and values of such organizations, then it behooves us to take them at their word, even if cautiously, that they are not what they once were or mistakenly thought themselves to be. Also, it is disingenuous to compare the AIP with those organizations, simply because their stated goals and beliefs are very clear cut and spelled out in big flaming block letters for all the world to see. The secession plank of the AIP is a footnote hidden amidst dozens of other ideas and beliefs, and I doubt that AIP meeting involve swearing any mystical blood oaths to rip Alaska from the union or die trying.
You yourself agree that even if he once had secessionist tendencies, he no longer has them. So what in tarnation is your beef with Todd Palin? Are you advocating that society must make it’s mission to unearth, exhume, illuminate, and punish the sins, no matter how goofy or trivial, of each and every single individual’s sordid past? Should your boss fire you today because you stole a candy bar at age 12? Should each person that muttered or shouted a racial epithet 20 years ago be thrown in prison for hate crimes? Should each and every spouse sue for divorce upon discovering that their wife or husband was unfaithful years before the married couple even met? What exactly is the point of your attacks upon a man whom you yourself admit has changed his behavior and his philosophy? I still say that it is 50/50 whether he left the AIP because he changed, or because he actually learned that what they stand for was not what he believed. You are basically assuming all sorts of knowledge that you have no earthly way of knowing, and you are condemning a man with circumstantial evidence.
While they are members of, and in public agreement with the stated aims of such organizations, then yes. If they leave such organizations and have no more to do with them, and do not show support for the goals and values of such organizations, then it behooves us to take them at their word, even if cautiously, that they are not what they once were or mistakenly thought themselves to be.
As I say – I used the past tense. I haven’t said that Todd continues to believe in secession.
Also, it is disingenuous to compare the AIP with those organizations, simply because their stated goals and beliefs are very clear cut and spelled out in big flaming block letters for all the world to see. The secession plank of the AIP is a footnote hidden amidst dozens of other ideas and beliefs, and I doubt that AIP meeting involve swearing any mystical blood oaths to rip Alaska from the union or die trying.
Disagree – it’s in their title the Alaska INDEPENDENCE Party. How much clearer do you want that party to be? Sure over time they may appear to brush this under the carpet somewhat – But they were founded on this & they are campaigning for their to be a vote on this issue and it wasn’t hard to find it on their website. If Alaskan want less government but stick with the union – then they can always vote Republican. If you want to be believe that the AIP don’t have secession as a goal then go ahead – to me it’s very clear. It’s like trying to argue Sein Fein are not linked to terrorism.
You yourself agree that even if he once had secessionist tendencies, he no longer has them.
I didn’t say this. In fact – how do you know? Because I’m not a member of any political party – does that mean I don’t support any party? I presume that he changed his mind or decided to leave as it could be seen as an embarrassment to his wife. Either way – it’s *now* best not to presume either way since he left in 2002.
So what in tarnation is your beef with Todd Palin? Are you advocating that society must make it’s mission to unearth, exhume, illuminate, and punish the sins, no matter how goofy or trivial, of each and every single individual’s sordid past? Should your boss fire you today because you stole a candy bar at age 12? Should each person that muttered or shouted a racial epithet 20 years ago be thrown in prison for hate crimes? Should each and every spouse sue for divorce upon discovering that their wife or husband was unfaithful years before the married couple even met? What exactly is the point of your attacks upon a man whom you yourself admit has changed his behavior and his philosophy?
My beef is that he cannot be considered a patriot of the US if he was likely that he supported secession (evidence being that he was a member of secession party) and that he has not renounced those views. Of course anyone can change their views and behaviours – and good for them. Leaving a party doesn’t mean you have changed your views. I left the Liberal Party in the UK because I objected to them renouncing on a promise to support a referendum on the EU constitution. I am no longer a Liberal? And at the next election I expect I will vote conservative – tactically to kick out the socialist Gordon Brown. Am I no longer a Liberal? If I joined the conservatives as a party member or if I renounced my liberal views then sure. Again I haven’t said that Todd has changed his behaviour or philisophy. Who knows. But to be considered a patriot I think people should renounce such views. It’s not hard. It’s his privacy – but as Michelle’s past behaviour and comments are criticized – then what’s sause for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Lol, right! He’s married to Sarah isn’t he? He gets away with refusing to testify State investigation. What a patriot. What white trash.
Well that didn’t take long. I was sure one of the libtards who constantly demand respect for Obama would show up and trash Todd Palin.
Libdud: if you want to see real white trash look in the mirror.
This is the guy that spent years campaigning for his state to break away from the US? Is that what’s makes a Patriot these days?
I can’t believe Todd hasn’t popped somone in the face after how his wife and family were treated. White trash? The leftwing nazi MEDIA are the white trash…..but we already knew that. And they seem so proud to be fascists. Assholes.
@GaffaUK:
I’m not a Palin fan, but that was a false rumor. No truth in it at all.
@GaffaUK: Haven’t we already determined that you were terribly misinformed by the mainstream media regarding the Palins? Do you really want to continue embarrassing yourself by repeating those shopworn socialist shibboleths?
@joyce: Don’t sugarcoat it. Tell us what you really think! I love it!
I am a Palin fan.
But a slow one. After all of this it just a moment occurred to me!
PALIN/PALIN for Pres and VP in 2011!
(Which is which? I’m guessing Sarah/Todd would be the best.)
Piper for Sec. State.
@Mike
Have you? So you are saying that Todd Palin was never a member of the Alaskan Independence Party?
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/the-alaska-divi.html
@GaffaUK:
So membership in a political party means that you believe, support, and work for everything that the party believes in?
Is that the leap in logic you’re trying to make here?
Where’s your proof that “he spent years campaigning for his state to break away from the US?”
I anxiously await the video tapes.
I anxiously await the copies of the campaign fliers.
I anxiously await the proof Todd Palin “spent years campaigning” for his state to break away from the US.
I anxiously await some sort of documentation to support your claim.
Since he “spent years campaigning” for it, I am sure you’ll have no problem producing some evidence.
@Aye
Fair points – I amend ‘campaigning’ to ‘supporting’
“He spent years supporting a party that campaigns for his state to break away from the US.”
Do you agree with that?
I believe having membership in a party whose central goal in gaining independence means he agrees with that and supports it. Or are you naive to believe that it is not abundantly clear enough that being a member isn’t evidence enough.
And if he believed in that – then clearly he’s no patriot. My central point remains. By all means quibble over semantics all you want…the ball is back in your court.
gaff.
shut up. you are so stupid. go somewhere else with your tripe. i am fed up with people like you.
you and your ilk are why we are in this mess. like your side has said, you are in control now, so why do you want to trash good american people like the palins? oh yes, i know, because she is like holy water to your demonrat party so go away to the other websites that support your drivel.
@GaffaUK:
It’s fair to say that Todd Palin was a member of the AIP.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
Unless, of course, you can come up with some sort of proof that he actively campaigned for, or supported, specific planks in the party platform then you are grasping.
You’re really stretching there wouldn’t you say?
When one examines the platform of the AIP, it is easily discovered that it doesn’t say what you claim that it says.
Nowhere in there does the party platform advocate, or call for, breaking away from the US. The AIP originally called for the citizens of Alaska to have a choice “between statehood, commonwealth status, or complete separation — something they say has been granted to other U.S. territories such as Puerto Rico.”
Your claim about being in favor of “breaking away” is patently false. The AIP believes in freedom of choice and self-determination which is exactly what the Founders had in mind.
Just for fun, let’s take your faulty “membership = agreement and support” litmus test and apply it to two other political parties.
Can you say that just because someone is a member of the Democrat party that they are automatically pro-choice in terms of abortion?
Can you say that just because someone is a member of the Republican party that they are automatically pro-life?
Those are major elements in the planks of both of those parties but you would be hard pressed to prove that every member of the Dem or Rep party believes and supports every plank in the party platform.
In fact, the opposite is easily proven.
Faulty logic will lead you to produce faulty conclusions.
@Aye
lol – c’mon. Alaskan INDEPENDENCE Party.
What more do you need to know?
The Democrat & Republican parties represent a wide church of views as you know.
If I strongly believe in the union of the UK – but I liked the Scottish National Party view on local taxes I still wouldn’t join them as their CENTRAL goal is to gain independence. Of course the AIP like any good independence party will try to achieve their ends by any means – even if that means by degrees – like getting a poll on seperation.
I’m sorry but that really doesn’t rub. I guess if I join the Communist party that doesn’t make me a communist?
@GaffaUK:
I have proven what the AIP is all about. I linked the platform and other information from their site.
I went on to demonstrate to you how membership doesn’t automatically prove support for every plank in the platform.
Furthermore I proved that “independence” or “breaking away”, as you originally termed is, is NOT part of the platform.
I exposed your faulty logic and the faulty conclusions that resulted from it.
Yet you persist in making a fool of yourself.
The straws are in the kitchen drawer on the left. Feel free to take as many as you need.
@Aye
Think about it…
1) Why would a political party want to call for a vote on whether to remain as a state or not?
If you are in favour of Alaska remaining as a state you wouldn’t join an INDEPENDENCE party.
2) And if the party isn’t in favour of independence they why have it in it’s name
3) Check out it’s goals
http://www.akip.org/
Amazing not only do you discount that a person who joins an independence party isn’t necessarily looking independence – but you are now claiming that even the political party itself isn’t looking for independence. lol
Just coincidence I guess that it is AIP members wanting to make secession legal. Of course not they would actually want to Alaska to secede from the US now would they?
Quote from Joe Volger – founder of AIP. Still got your doubts? lol
On reflection I’m prepared to give Sarah Palin the benefit of the doubt as although it is has been reported she has gone to at least one of their conventions and she warmly welcomed them a few years back – she wasn’t a member. Todd doesn’t have that excuse. He was for many years a member of an INDEPENDENCE party that’s goal was and still is to get secession onto a ballot. That’s no act of a patriot.
It’s shame that we were having a pleasant debate but you had to ruin it by judging me a fool and making one of your lame straw remarks.
Awww… be nice to Gaffa, Aye. Did you forget what a nightmare to the British soul having provinces declare independence is? To us, the AIP is a bunch of kooks. To a Brit, they are as bad as the IRA.
@Gaffa
Is Todd a current member of the AIP? If not, and if he did not commit crimes during his membership, then what freaking business are his past indiscretions of ours? I did and believed a lot of stupid and rash things when I was younger. Guess what? I learned from my mistakes, grew up and moved on. Todd did not sign a lifetime contract stating that he would dedicate his life to the AIP and all of it’s ideals. Kindly show what recent actions Todd has committed that cause you to associate him with his past. If you join the Communist Party, then you are a Communist. If you later quit the Commy Party, and no longer espouse their beliefs, then you are no longer a Communist. Pretty simple to understand really.
This is where Progressives stumble over past associations. They want to hang any conservative over his/her past, despite a lack of current connection. Then they want their own heroes to be excused their past associations, despite a very current and blatant continuation of the questionable behavior.
@Lightbringer
lol.
I’m not claiming this.
Oh does this go for everybody then Lightbringer?
Yeah – he was between 30 and 37 – so hardly a naive teenager. And I wonder if he left as not to embarrass his wife.
I don’t need to. People including Obama is judged on their past and associations (Ayers anyone?)
lol – yeah and if Michelle Obama once was a member of the Commy PArty do you think the Right would make a deal out of that.
Of course you would never hang a liberal over his/her past now would you? lol
@GaffaUK:
Still spinning and gyrating I see.
Let me ask you something.
Do modern day Democrat party members support slavery because their party did?
Do modern day Democrat party members support segregation because their party did?
Do modern day Democrat party members support the KKK because their party did?
Are modern day Democrat party members opposed to civil rights because their party was?
Either every party member stands for everything the party supports or they don’t.
You cannot have it both ways.
Yellow feathers. Webbed feet. Funny walk. Duck.
When the shoe fits, wear it with pride.
The Declaration of Independence should give you a little insight on what the Founders thought about the ability of the People to decide what kind of government they live under.
I realize that may be a strange concept to those who wish to deprive others of free choice but that is your shortcoming.
We are self-governed here in the States.
We the People get to decide what the government does.
Not the other way around.
@Gaffa
Regarding the past associations of Obama and other Democrats. You might want to reread my post. I mentioned several times that for past indiscretions to be left in the past, one has to cease the association or behavior. I do not pounce on Barry for being a pot smoking cokehead, and any Conservatives who do need to read my words as much as you do. As for his association with Bill Ayers, I have yet to hear Obama denounce the scumbag. I have yet to hear Ayers denounce his terrorist ways. “We didn’t bomb enough”, (or words to that effect) come to mind.
I try to judge current actions and words, and then put them into a broader perspective in relation to past associations. It is not my fault that so many “Progressives” continue to act in accordance with their past declarations. I point out the same fallacy of tying past associations to people who no longer exhibit such behavior to conservatives as well as liberals.
@Aye
The simple truth is that AIP continues to campaign for a vote on secession as they did in 1958 as they are doing today. The AIP does not reject Joe Vogler’s dream. In has it on it’s website – the very website you linked.lol
Does the Democrats continue to support slavery etc? Are they called Democrats Slavery Party? Nope. And to compare the AIP or any other nationalist or independence party to large broad parties like the Democrats or Republicans is either intellectually dishonest or naive. Or if you would say like a fool.
If I join the daylight saving for Queensland party – I can pretty much guarentee what they are campaigning about . http://www.ds4seq.org.au/. Can you guess?
And I didn’t have to dig very deep now to show you that the Alaskan Independence Party really does want Independence despite your anal retentive denial of the obvious.
Maybe Jefferson Davis should of got a public vote for secession.
@Lightbringer
So show me the quotes where Todd had renounced the AIP and it’s aims?
@GaffaUK:
The point that you are willfully ignoring is that the American people generally, and Alaskans specifically have the right to decide what type of government they live under.
The People have that choice.
You’re jumping up and down and pointing fingers at a group of citizens who want to have a VOTE to decide what type of government is right for them.
That is their choice and their right.
You seem to be missing that either through willful ignorance, omission, intellectual dishonesty, or naivete.
You still haven’t proven your original thesis that Todd Palin specifically supported secession or “breaking away.”
What the AIP wants is for the citizens of Alaska to have a choice and a vote.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
Even if Todd Palin did support the citizens of Alaska having a vote, and you haven’t proven it, but even if he did, so what? What’s the big deal? Self government and freedom of choice is a distinctly American idea. I guess that is why you have such difficulty wrapping your mind around it.
Again, I encourage you to read the Declaration of Independence.
For that matter, you should read up on the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution and the number of states whose legislatures have already passed bills regarding state sovreignty.
That ought to really make your liberal head explode.
As to the daylight saving for Queensland party and what they stand for, quite frankly I don’t give a furry rat’s ass. That’s in Australia. It doesn’t matter to me. I am unaffected by it and it’s not worth my time.
@GaffaUK: I see you have just dug in your high heels and are being your usual stubborn self.
I have previously described how you allowed distortions regarding the Palin’s to color your understanding of them as it suits your personal prejudices. That is exactly what you are doing here.
Get over it.
There is simply NO EVIDENCE to suggest that Todd Palin supported secession and even the claim that it was the AIP’s sole aim to do so is a distortion. The AIP has more to do with assuring that the federal government respects the original statehood statehood agreement and the state’s rights of Alaska citizens.
I understand you prefer this transparent distractions to any consideration of the example the Palin family represents but continuing to wallow in a smear campaign only makes you look trite and small.
P.S. As a native born citizen of the first state in the Union ever to secede I take these states rights matters pretty seriously. But I doubt you would find anything approaching majority support in Alaska for the more radical approach of some AIP members.
@Gaffa
Show me the Todd Palin quotes calling for secession. Show me how he has rammed secessionist legislation through the Alaska governmental process. Perhaps you do not understand how we do things on this side of the pond. Do the words “innocent until proven guilty” ring a bell? I can present evidence that Obama is still a Statist and a Leftist all day long. Somehow I get the feeling that you do not have any actual facts to back up your claim about Todd.
@Lightbringer: Gaffa seems to believe everything he reads. Despite the fact that it’s been proven to him that the negative reporting about the Palin’s has been WRONG he still persists.
Three angels dancing on a pinhead…
Okay I’ll play along…
It’s possible that the Alaskan Independence Party no longer supports secession from the US and they only want a vote on the issue – and that they happened to forget to change the name of their party and they happened to forget to update their website when they explicitly say that the call for this vote to further the dream of Joe Vogler who wanted to achieve independence. Possibly but unlikely.
It’s possible that you can have an independence party who is calling for a vote on secession just for the hell of it – or reconfirm their commitment to the Union – whilst they absolutely have no agenda or preference for ultimate secession themselves. Possibly but unlikely.
It’s possible that Todd Palin was politically naive at 30 years old and didn’t realise that joining an independence party ment the money he put towards such a party in membership fees would go towards campaigning to get a vote on secession. Possibly but unlikely.
It’s possible that Todd Palin loves the US so much that he thinks Alaska is holding the US back and the US would be better without it. Or it’s possible that he is a spy for another party. Or that he joined because he liked the people in the organisation but didn’t agree with their views on secession. Possibly but unlikely.
It’s possible that Todd Palin did want Alaska to leave the Union for at least seven years but then he suddenly changed his mind 180 degrees and now he’s a firm advocate of the Union – irrespective that his wife became Governor of Alaska. Possibly but unlikely.
It’s possible that the majority of rightwing commentators on here think that the history of spouses of political figures is totally not relevant. Possibly but unlikely.
btw. I have no problem that people in the US or outside are campaigning for independence for their region in the country they currently live in. Nothing wrong with that. I’m just saying it’s not patriotic to that existing country. So all your blather on the constitution etc is actually irrelevant to my point.
Is it so hard to concede that Todd Palin was likely for a period of time to support a political party that wanted to ultimately break away from the US and achieve independence?
Keep on dancing 🙂
Actually, exercising free choice at the ballot box is a fundamental value of America just as the Founders intended.
You can say it’s unpatriotic but that doesn’t make your claim true.
In fact, just the opposite is true.
@GaffaUK: What’s “possible” here is that you simply find it easier to repeat the same smears over and over despite evidence to the contrary.
[THIS INDIVIDUAL IS BANNED FROM ALL MIKE”S AMERICA THREADS FOR BEING A FLAMING SPAMMING ASS!]
@blast:
Well, you had no problem voting for, and supporting, a full fledged member of the socialist New Party back in November so, what’s your point?
You should spend some more time studying the Founders.
[THIS INDIVIDUAL IS BANNED FROM ALL MIKE”S AMERICA THREADS FOR BEING A FLAMING SPAMMING ASS!]
Are you disputing Obama’s membership in the New Party?
You claim to have studied the Founders yet you make rather ignorant statements about what the Founders believed.
Wow, I love the way you bash your fellow Americans. So classy.
Tell me something. If you’re so concerned with how many people are on the teat (that’s the correct spelling, by the way) then how in the world do you square that with your unquestioning and blindly loyal support of Obie when he clearly intends to, and has, expanded the government welfare dole?
I’m a firm believer in States Rights.
I’m a firm believer in Original Intent.
When/if the time ever comes where a state decides that they want to secede from the union that is their right as established by the Founders.
[THIS INDIVIDUAL IS BANNED FROM ALL MIKE”S AMERICA THREADS FOR BEING A FLAMING SPAMMING ASS!]
@blast:
Yeah.
Here’s a quote from activist judge Thomas Jefferson:
Another from TJ:
The delegates at the Virginia ratification convention:
James Madison in Federalist 39:
James Madison in Federalist 45:
Those darned activist judges.
They’re everywhere, aren’t they blast?
Don’t look now but your ignorance is showing.
[THIS INDIVIDUAL IS BANNED FROM ALL MIKE”S AMERICA THREADS FOR BEING A FLAMING SPAMMING ASS!]
Aye, I believe that blast is correct INRE states yielding the right to secession. The Federalists, in so many debates, were not crystal clear but made it quite plain this was to be more than a pact between differing states in order to become a union. It wasn’t a membership that could be revoked at a whim.
Even James Madison did not believe secession to be a Constitutional right. Per Madison’s letter to Daniel Webster in The Founders Constitution docs:
You should read the whole thing.
Secession, while not considered Constitutional, has nothing to do with the absolute right to revolution when federal government becomes so oppressive as to morally justify it. And I would guess that the preceding sentence really lands me on the DHS “list”…. LOL
blast, your #31 comment is so off base about Todd Palin and reasons many of the native Alaskans find secession appealing in their AIP. They are not, however, a single issue party. You might as well say that all members of the GOP are Christian and anti-abortion.
Fact is Alaska has little in common with the lower 48. Bounded by foreign nations, and with a more hostile climate, they believe… and quite rightly… that most of US laws are not necessarily appropriate for their way of life. Then again, that’s why there is the 10th Amendment… to deal with those territorial needs. As the 10th Amendment rights erode, any separatist movement will grow exponentially stronger.
And, BTW, that remark about “wanting more welfare” was extremely offensive. They are far more independent than denizens of Chicago.
@blast:
You’re right. The issue was heavily debated and discussed and the concensus was that the states retained the right to secede.
The Constitution was laid out with the intention that the relationship between the states function as a confederation with each state remaining, in Jefferson’s words “Free and Independent States.”
The first quote comes from his first Inaugural.
The second is from an 1816 letter to William Crawford in relation to New Englanders desire to secede.
Here’s a quote from an 1825 letter to William Branch Giles:
The Constitution was designed for the purpose of granting powers to the fed gov’t. Any power not explicitly given to the fed gov’t remains with the states. That is the reason that we have the 9th and 10th Amendments.
The Constitution doesn’t address secession one way or the other. It doesn’t say that states can if they wish, nor does the Constitution give the fed gov’t any power to prevent secession.
Jefferson would presumably say that the principle of constitutional self government presupposes the right to secede, therefore there is no need to spell it out.
The principles involved in the formation, and maintenance of the Confederation, made it clear that the individual states had the right to remove themselves if they wished.
In other words, you take the word of activist judges whose decision flies in the face of the Founders own words and intentions because those judges happen to agree with your point of view.
How convenient.
Aye, I do not see that they intended the Constitution to emulate a “confederacy” at all. The CSA Constitution differed mostly by placing emphasis on states as individual “sovereign” and independent characters… probably for this issue of permanance.
In fact, if you read Jefferson’s notes, it seems that having the dual Congressional chambers was part of the resolution between those advocating for “union”, and those advocating for “confederacy”.
Benjamin Franklin stressed “union”. And according to Michael Dorf at FindLaw, unilateral secession is not permitted via our Constitution. (meaning mutual permission between petitioning states and Congress
Then, of course, Lincoln obviously believed in an indestructable union. This was affirmed by the SCOTUS via in Texas v White in 1869.
All in all, interesting discussion. But I’ll bet you’ll find many from the era that stood on opposite sides of the fence. However one would think the SCOTUS opinion would settle the argument once and for all, based on our government structure.
So why didn’t the US allow the South to secede from the Union if it’s a state’s democratic right to do so? Is Jefferson Davis a fine patriot?
@GaffaUK: Would you mind explaining to me how that has anything to do with Todd Palin? I realize I let things get off topic but it’s time to rein it in.
If anyone wants to comment on the idea that “The South Shall Rise Again” they should save it for my tax day protest post coming up shortly.
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@Mike
Sure Palin was a member of the AIP. At least nobody seems to dispute that.
The AIP is calling for a vote on secession.
I question whether people who wish to have their state secede from the union are patriotic or not. Now Thomas Jefferson quotes were interesting but as MataHarley & Blast said actually that doesn’t seem to be a feasible option. And the South clearly want to break away. So who’s right – Thomas Jefferson, Lincoln or Jefferson Davis? Which brought me to my question over wether Jefferson Davis was a patriot of the US or not. And IF (and I think being a member of an INDEPENDENCE party is evidence) Todd was/is wanting seperation does that make him a patriot?
Put it this way – if a Scottish person wanted to break away from the UK – as some do. Then good for them and there was a vote on devolution (the half-way house towards independence). They may be patriots for Scotland but they wouldn’t in my opinion be patriotic for the existing politically union of the UK.
@GaffaUK: You simply PERSIST in distorting the AIP don;’t you?
Here’s their platform:
I agree with 92.64% of that. But I don’t support secession. Am I unpatriotic too?
You can support 92.64% – a lot no doubt has in common with the Republican party. However unlike the AIP you DONT support secession so your patriotism in intact.
Around and around and around we go. I’ll repeat myself. Provide proof positive that Todd supported the secession plank. Otherwise, you are just pasting your own imagination over a man’s thought process that we have no facts about. Since he left the AIP, it is just as likely as any other idea that he left BECAUSE of the secession plank. It is also just as likely that he supported it until he thought about it for awhile and realized the deeper implications. You seem hellbent on proving that merely belonging to the AIP is proof positive of iron clad secessionism. Yet you completely ignore the fact that he left the AIP, which in your less than rock solid logic should mean that he hates secession so strongly that he will kill anyone who calls for it on sight.
I’m sorry Gaffa, even you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
@Lightbringer
I’ve already added provisos and outside possibilities…
Put it this way…
If a person is a member of the KKK you would consider them a white supremacist?
If a person is a member of the Communist party would consider them a Communist?
If a person is a member of Al Qaeda would consider them a terrorist?
And I’m not saying he is a seperatist today -I said he
See past tense…
@Gaffa
“If a person is a member of the KKK you would consider them a white supremacist?
If a person is a member of the Communist party would consider them a Communist?
If a person is a member of Al Qaeda would consider them a terrorist?”
While they are members of, and in public agreement with the stated aims of such organizations, then yes. If they leave such organizations and have no more to do with them, and do not show support for the goals and values of such organizations, then it behooves us to take them at their word, even if cautiously, that they are not what they once were or mistakenly thought themselves to be. Also, it is disingenuous to compare the AIP with those organizations, simply because their stated goals and beliefs are very clear cut and spelled out in big flaming block letters for all the world to see. The secession plank of the AIP is a footnote hidden amidst dozens of other ideas and beliefs, and I doubt that AIP meeting involve swearing any mystical blood oaths to rip Alaska from the union or die trying.
You yourself agree that even if he once had secessionist tendencies, he no longer has them. So what in tarnation is your beef with Todd Palin? Are you advocating that society must make it’s mission to unearth, exhume, illuminate, and punish the sins, no matter how goofy or trivial, of each and every single individual’s sordid past? Should your boss fire you today because you stole a candy bar at age 12? Should each person that muttered or shouted a racial epithet 20 years ago be thrown in prison for hate crimes? Should each and every spouse sue for divorce upon discovering that their wife or husband was unfaithful years before the married couple even met? What exactly is the point of your attacks upon a man whom you yourself admit has changed his behavior and his philosophy? I still say that it is 50/50 whether he left the AIP because he changed, or because he actually learned that what they stand for was not what he believed. You are basically assuming all sorts of knowledge that you have no earthly way of knowing, and you are condemning a man with circumstantial evidence.
As I say – I used the past tense. I haven’t said that Todd continues to believe in secession.
Disagree – it’s in their title the Alaska INDEPENDENCE Party. How much clearer do you want that party to be? Sure over time they may appear to brush this under the carpet somewhat – But they were founded on this & they are campaigning for their to be a vote on this issue and it wasn’t hard to find it on their website. If Alaskan want less government but stick with the union – then they can always vote Republican. If you want to be believe that the AIP don’t have secession as a goal then go ahead – to me it’s very clear. It’s like trying to argue Sein Fein are not linked to terrorism.
I didn’t say this. In fact – how do you know? Because I’m not a member of any political party – does that mean I don’t support any party? I presume that he changed his mind or decided to leave as it could be seen as an embarrassment to his wife. Either way – it’s *now* best not to presume either way since he left in 2002.
My beef is that he cannot be considered a patriot of the US if he was likely that he supported secession (evidence being that he was a member of secession party) and that he has not renounced those views. Of course anyone can change their views and behaviours – and good for them. Leaving a party doesn’t mean you have changed your views. I left the Liberal Party in the UK because I objected to them renouncing on a promise to support a referendum on the EU constitution. I am no longer a Liberal? And at the next election I expect I will vote conservative – tactically to kick out the socialist Gordon Brown. Am I no longer a Liberal? If I joined the conservatives as a party member or if I renounced my liberal views then sure. Again I haven’t said that Todd has changed his behaviour or philisophy. Who knows. But to be considered a patriot I think people should renounce such views. It’s not hard. It’s his privacy – but as Michelle’s past behaviour and comments are criticized – then what’s sause for the goose is sauce for the gander.