Oh to be a fly on the wall. And to hear what was said between Obama and Pakistan PM, Yousef Raza Gilani on his three day visit to the beltway… well… that’s exactly what you’d have to be.
First we have Obama’s typical reenactment version of a “productive and wide ranging discussion”:
“I had a productive and wide-ranging discussion with Prime Minister Gilani,” Obama said in the statement. “Pakistan is an extremely important partner to the United States, and we covered a number of issues vital to the security of both our nations. We discussed how to more effectively deal with the central front in the war on terrorism — the threat from al Qaeda and the Taliban originating from the Pakistani tribal areas — which threatens the United States, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.
“We also discussed how to bolster opportunity for the Pakistani people, while consolidating democracy, the rule of law, and human rights in Pakistan, and curbing the proliferation of nuclear materials. Each of these steps is necessary to bring peace and stability to an increasingly volatile region of the world, and I look forward to working with the democratically elected government of Pakistan to make progress on these issues in the future.”
Gilani’s version of the meeting – terse as it was – was reported in Dawn today … and is decidedly more muted:
Talking to the Pakistani media in Washington, Mr Gilani described his meeting with White House hopeful Barack Obama earlier on Tuesday as positive.
“He supports democracy in Pakistan and he supports Pakistan’s sovereignty,” said Mr Gilani.
“Since he does not want to publicise the meeting so close to the election, we are not talking about it.”
“…does not want to publicise the meeting so close to the election…”? Odd request from a candidate, brimming with self-confidence, who touts “transparency” and change as his campaign calling card. You remember him… the one who went out of his way to announce that the US has only “one president” at a time, then holds a joint news conference with French foreign leadership?
But wait! Didn’t Obama… in his own statement above… tell us what they talked about?
Hummm, okay. I’m trying to imagine the PM steering the conversation with the jr. Senator to one about Pakistan’s human rights, curbing nuke materials and Pakistan’s rule of law – issues all of which I would guess the PM would consider pertinent to his government, and none of Obama’s or the US’s business.
And considering that Gilani feels they are being as “effective” as possible in fighting the militants, I’ll have to wager that the “more effectively deal with terrorists” bit was also emanating from BHO’s mouth.
All of which leaves me with the impression from Obama’s own statement that he did a boatload of suggesting and/or lecturing, and very little listening. But then, it’s pure speculation on my part. Because, you see, BHO doesn’t want us to know what the discussions were about… at least not from Gilani’s viewpoint.
Then again, as I pointed out in my Jul 21st post, “Where Obama fears to tread…”, the DNC’s “barely chosen one” has a good year of aggressive and threatening policies towards Pakistan under his belt. He’s got some bridge building to do. Perhaps he left that meeting with the gut feeling Gilani was not necessarily going to give him a glowing review. And we all know that when Obama doesn’t get glowing reviews, he’s not a happy camper.
Now, if our favorite Obamatrons here think that perhaps Gilani’s choice of the word “positive” was a measure of success, or (dare I say it) Pakistani approval, you might want to contrast Gilani’s next choice of words in that same article when discussing his meeting with the dreaded and hated, Dubya…
Mr Gilani described his meeting with President George W. Bush at the White House on Monday as “excellent” and once again assured the Pakistani media that he was no seeking America’s guarantee for Pakistan’s sovereignty.
~~~Asked why Pakistan needs America’s guarantee for its sovereignty, the prime minister said: “We do not need such a guarantee from any one but if they offer it on their own, I see no harm.”
Or, as put in AAJ-TV, Pakistan:
“It was excellent. He (Bush) expressed support for democracy and respect for sovereignty of Pakistan,” Gilani said in reply to a question during a brief chat with Pakistani media.
“Excellent”… quite a strong word Gilani has there for a guy who liberal/progressives – and their “presumptuous nominee” – tell us have badly damaged world relations.
And what a contrast in adjectives between the “excellent” talks with the much maligned Bush, and the “positive” talks with the man who-would-be-the-global-savior/uniter.
Then again, Gilani’s got his own problems on the home front… considered a weak PM, sandwiched in between Pakistan’s army and the US global war on Islamic jihad movements. Portrayed more as a shadow leader behind Nawaz and Zardari, perhaps kudos from him aren’t all they are cracked up to be anyway.
On the eve of his official visit to the United States, Mr Gilani issued an order bringing the country’s premier spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), under the control of the interior ministry and therefore more fully under civilian command.
Just hours later, the government was forced to reverse the decision after the army and the president, Pervez Musharraf, a former army chief, voiced their displeasure. In unusually candid words, Maj Gen Athar Abbas, an army spokesman, called the proposed new arrangement “unworkable” and the result of “miscommunication”.
~~~It is thought that Mr Gilani had timed the ISI move for his meeting with George W Bush, after increasingly shrill voices from Washington and Kabul had complained that the intelligence agency was secretly supporting militants in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
~~~Nominally, the ISI is under the control of the prime minister. In reality, however, it is run by the military, pursuing the army’s agenda. The current ISI chief, Lt Gen Nadeem Taj, is close to Mr Musharraf, not the civilian government of Mr Gilani. The army chief, Gen Ashfaq Kayani, is a former head of the ISI. Mr Gilani had sought to gain greater actual power over the ISI by placing it under the command of the interior ministry. The failure of the move was described by the opposition Pakistan Muslim League-Q as a “coup against the prime minister”.
Asif Ali Zardari, the leader of Mr Gilani’s Pakistan People’s Party, had hailed the decision, saying: “No one will now be able to say that this agency is not under the elected government’s control.” After the U-turn, he admitted: “anyone can make mistakes in such situation, but nobody should doubt our intentions.”
Woof… talking about speaking and being bold, and rapidly being humbled by the supposedly ostracized and hated Musharraf. Perhaps he’s not as impotent as portrayed afterall.
Comparing the present regime with Musharraf’s, the magazine says that the previous government possessed more appeal for Washington as he had control of both the Army and the Government.
“By contrast, the Musharraf years held obvious appeal for Washington. As a man in control of both the army and the government, the former army chief wielded greater power, and where necessary, could be counted to resist public opinion. Gilani’s struggling government is deeply susceptible to public opinion, with recent polls consistently recording majorities hostile to the use of military force (against militants),” the Daily Times quoted the magazine as saying. (ANI)
Yup… I still say the Pakistan relations will be the biggest challenge for the next POTUS. And apparently, the one who’s holding the E-ride tickets to both Musharraf and the Gilani coalition government is still George W. Bush. Won’t that be the bitter pill to swallow for the new wave internationalist party, the DNC?
Now, desirous of giving “equal” time to the “also ran” – McCain – I had to turn to a Pakistan publication because not one, single, solitary… did I mention zip, nada none?… American media outlet deigned to acknowledge the GOP candidate had contact with Gilani.
Republican presidential candidate Senator John McCain has said if elected he would support fostering relations with Pakistan and work closely with the country on areas of common interest.
In a telephonic conversation with Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, the presumptive Republican nominee, who was out of Washington on Monday, said he is aware of Pakistan’s challenges. The conversation lasted for about 20 minutes.
Gilani spoke of the importance of forging long-term strategic relationship between Pakistan and the United States and said the elected government is committed to socio-economic uplift of the people.
McCain, who has been appreciative of Pakistan’s anti-terrorism efforts over the years, advocates developing close cooperation with the country in eliminating terrorism along Pakistan-Afghanistan border. He has recently proposed enhancing cooperative efforts in various socio-economic fields.
No comments from Gilani INRE his conversations with McCain. Apparently none of the media believe asking about the “also ran’s” encounter with the PM is news worthy…. handy if, by chance, McCain wanted that discussion to remain under wraps too. When you’re ignored, there’s no need to ask, right?
Vietnam era Navy wife, indy/conservative, and an official California escapee now residing as a red speck in the sea of Oregon blue.
Mata,
Hold on – Curbing nuclear proliferation is none of the US’s business. How ya’ figure that?
And it’s not surprising Gilani said his talk with the President was excellent since the President came out this week stating that Pakistan was a “strong ally” of the US. How’s he figure that?
Pakistan is likely harboring Bin Laden. Doesn’t that make it in the President’s own words our “enemy” and not our “strong ally.”
Feels like we’ve fallen down the rabbit hole here:
“Humpty Dumpty: When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.
Alice: The question is, whether you can make words mean so many different things.
Humpty Dumpty: The question is: which is to be master – that’s all.”
Yes indeed, Humpty, yes indeed.
You did not read correctly, Dave Noble. I did not say *I* thought that. I said… Hummm, okay. I’m trying to imagine the PM steering the conversation with the jr. Senator to one about … snip… all of which I would guess the PM would consider pertinent to his government, and none of Obama’s or the US’s business
My point was, and remains, that I doubt these are issues the PM brought up as he considers these the business of Pakistan. I also doubt the PM welcomed BHO’s opinions on Pakistan’s arsenal, human rights, or prosecution of the WOT.
In a word, no.
There is a difference between a despotic government (Taliban/Afghanistan or Saddam/Iraq or Ahmadinejad/Qud or Syria/Hezbollah or Palestine/Hamas) harboring terrorists… and terrorists living in allied countries world wide. And OBL is not the lone target… except maybe to the deluded DNC who thinks the war is won if we kill/capture OBL.
We don’t go after Britain, and they have terrorist living there. We don’t go after ourselves, and terrorists are here. We don’t go after France, Spain, etal. Jihad elements are everywhere. However these nations cooperate in attempted control. Some admittedly better and more effectively than others. However Britan is not majority Muslim, as is Pakistan. This makes it much more delicate a relationship.
These countries are allies when they attempt some sort of prosecution and intel sharing. They are enemies when they refuse to cooperate and allow terrorists to proliferate.
Pakistan is a problem. The Muslims in that region don’t want to be seen as US puppets. And they don’t want jihad in their midst. Gilani’s coalition govt is trending towards the traditional NIMBY attitude… negotiate peace from militants in their own back yard, in exchange for turning a blind eye elsewhere. They are, just as they did in the past, finding this isn’t working well.
The Taliban and AQ are scooping up more and more territories. They break truces when the army moves in to stablize… taking hostages and trading them back for money and their own imprisoned fighters. This govt, like Musharraf, will have to find that same fine line to walk with aiding, and being aided by the US with jihad in their midst… and not suffering the ultimate wrath of the Muslim population for aligning themselves with the US. But the problems with the Taliban and AQ in Pakistan are growing daily… I have quite the archive going in my bookmarks.
But for certain the not so wonderful situation in Pakistan could be far worse by taking unilateral action and invading Pakistan’s borders. Obama is far more a cowboy than Bush with that nation. He talks tough love and threatens military to an ally, has been planning to abandon Iraq since 2006 at the height of their chaos, and is willing to take tea with Iran/Cuba and Venezuela. The difference is nothing short of remarkable. With BHO… he reserves his tough words for allies, not our enemies.
This is the same bullcrap that the Right has been spewing ever since Bush backed down on his “dead or alive” vow. If bin Laden’s not worth getting now, he never was. He still bears the same responsibility for the events that transpired that he ever did. His flippin’ driver is worth everything we can throw at him, but Osama himself is not worth the trouble? What kind of upside-down thinking is that?
Also: the “lone target” stuff is more Reich-wing straw-man flappage.
Live with the fact that Bush won’t do the right thing by America in re: bin Laden–for all his bluster, for all his faux-cowboy BS, when it became inconvenient to live up to his promise, he chose not to.
One would think that you Righties would call him on his flip-floppage, but that, too, would be inconvenient.
There’s that damn buzzing again… I swear I find it hard to believe some pests have a place in nature’s food chain as they genuinely contribute so little. Same ol’ monotone buzz and little ability in life but to eat, sleep, fly and take a dump.
Hey Mata,
I think that buzzing you hear is the same buzzing for the last 7 years from the du and daily kos…
Sure sounds like the same tin foil hat wearing crowd to me..
I still think it’s odd that before things started going better in Iraq that Afghanistan wasn’t important… now it’s the hot issue..
Typical libs..
Again:
Explain this, if you would, please.
This is just a bald-faced lie, and nothing more.
Mata,
I despair of ever understanding your position on Pakistan. You stretch and strain with your analogies to European countries. If we found that Spain’s intelligence community was protecting jihadists, I assure you there would be hell to pay. You might be interested in this:
“The American officials also said there was new information showing that members of the Pakistani intelligence service were increasingly providing militants with details about the American campaign against them, in some cases allowing militants to avoid American missile strikes in Pakistan’s tribal areas. ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/01/world/asia/01pstan.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
If that is not “harboring” terrorists, we are in Wonderland again.
DW
This is just a bald-faced lie, and nothing more.
You mean like the left complaining that Bush had a dui or maybe did coke…..
But,,,, I DRAW THE LINE AT HEROIN NOBAMA,,,, that’s ok,, no big deal??
That kind of lie?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Looks like Barry may be jumping on the band wagon again anyway…
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurph/articles/20080729.aspx
http://ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=300669684393644&kw=Pakistan
WTF?
No, I mean like the lie of saying that the Left is only making Afghanistan a priority since we “won” in Iraq.
That was a pathetically obvious attempt to change the subject away from your lie.
No, no DW,,,
I was simply illustrating the way the libs operate,, you can look it up in your play book.
You guys do get daily memos on that stuff don’t you??
As far as being a “lie”, nope, just my opinion from what I’ve been reading lately..
I don’t require you to agree, Nobama is a major flip flopper and everyone sees it.. that’s ok too.
I’m outta here for the weekend..
I hope you have a great weekend DW…
Yep… Pakistan’s govt is filled with corrupt officials in both the army and intelligence service. Then again, so is ours. The official govt position till remains a quasi-ally. However you and your boy, Obama, are eager to change that allied status… courtesy of the man you so love to hate, Dubya… back into a full fledged Muslim enemy with nukes. Brilliant.
They may not be a perfect ally, but they could damn sure be a perfect enemy.
Are you suggesting the US would invade Spain?? Naw… can’t be. And BTW, Spain has it’s corruption and less than perfect cooperation too. But then Spain is not a predominately Muslim country with deep cultural differences with western culture.
Don’t dispair on ever understanding, Dave. I don’t expect you to “get it”… and frankly, you don’t need to. As long as our next POTUS and military leadership does understand their internal challenges, I’m content if you stay in the dark.
Mata,
I long for a President who chooses his advisers well and then listens to them. Hopefully we will one day soon have a coherent foreign policy. We won’t have a President first saying that anyone who harbors a terrorist is our enemy and then later calling a country that harbors the murderer of 9/11 our “strong ally.” When that day comes no one will be forced to engage in tortured analysis to defend an incoherent, inconsistent foreign policy. You misunderstand. It’s not that I don’t understand what you’re saying; it’s that I don’t understand why you would say it. Once again we should probably agree to disagree.
Well, Dave Noble… BHO sure ain’t your guy then. He voted yeah on Petraeus. He then gave a big foreign policy speech, *before* his Euro Lampoon vacation – i.e., nothing he would hear would change his mind. And since he choose not to meet with Petraeus when he was in the country, he’s not had the benefit of a one on one briefing since forming that opinion as an IL Senator. Events and times have changed… his opinion has not.
“Listening” entails engaging commanders and advisors in briefings… an event that BHO apparently considers an option in defining his policies.
So he goes to Iraq… meets Petraeus. He listened to his concerns, and wrote them off as it just doesn’t fit with his own plan.
This proves that BHO is a wannabe Commander in Chief who:
1: doesn’t seek out one on one briefings before forming his own opinions, and
2: doesn’t change his opinion based on what his military commanders are telling him.
So I’d say, if you’re “longing” for a President who chooses his advisors well (and he did choose Petraeus, but you do inherit a great amount of military leadership with the job) and listens to them, you’re gonna be turning blue waiting for that with a President Obama. He’s like the typical 18 year old who knows everything.
The same can not be said of McCain.