Mandate my ass

@openid.aol.com/runnswim:

Instituting a speed limit abridges freedom. But what about criminalizing abortion? What about prohibiting same gender marriage? What about a prohibition of marijuana for personal use? What about a mandate to purchase health insurance? Wear a motorcycle helmet? Not rake the autumn leaves in your front lawn into piles in your driveway and burn them up (which is what everyone did, at one time, when I was growing up in Michigan)?

I know this wasn’t directed at me Larry, but it is very good and I’d like to respond.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I would like to blame the federal government for all the stuff you mentioned above, but the fault lies with us, “we the people.” We have given the power to do all of this to us at a federal level. Do you remember when they changed the drinking age from 18 to 21? Some of the States refused to do so, most notably, Louisiana. The feds said they could keep the drinking at 18, but they would receive no highway funds.
There are a bunch of companies that are laying people off and/or moving people to part-time in an effort to get below the 50 employee minimum for Obamacare. Not making this about Obamacare specifically, but people are going to find a way to be free, no matter what.

Hard Right
the lost of the election is the GOP failure to lie, fail to cheat, fail to incite revenge, fail to throw money and buy
the votes, and fail to yell with hate card , failure to abuse the rights of just election
which demand one vote one person,
they GOPS re dealing with all of the above done without failure from the DEMOCRATES
help by unions and members , and OBAMA SPEECH of revenge.
the GOP are to honest and tolerant, they have to start playing the same game,
tolerance zero,
MISTER BOEHNER,
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT HALF OF AMERICAN WILL START TO TRUST OBAMA AND THE DEMOCRATS BECAUSE THEY WON THAT KIND OF ELECTION?

Hard Right
no way, the PATRIOTS WILL LET THAT HAPPEN,
the time will come that
what ever OBAMA SIGN WILL BE INVALIDATE in this 4 years,

@openid.aol.com/runnswim:

As I said, Larry, if I had just one small bit of the talent Mata does at mining through the older postings, your “pooh-poohing” of the use of “freedom and liberty” would be pasted here.

The funny thing is, you have done so in the past and you just did the same in your #50, when you started talking about ‘trivializing’ the terms freedom and liberty. That is what I mean when I said you “pooh-poohed” the use of those terms.

I provided over 10 years of service to my country, Larry. It wasn’t until after my first couple years of service that I really understood the meaning of the oath I took when I first entered the military. Those two terms, and what they stand for, are as important to me as anything else in life. I’d still give the ultimate sacrifice if it meant freedom and liberty would endure.

Now, getting back to why I think the Democratic party cannot claim those anymore, one must look back at history, specifically the catalysts that ultimately led to throwing off the shackles of the British rule and the formation of our own government. The Boston Tea Party was conducted in response to several British government mandates and Acts immediately prior to the night the tea was thrown into Boston Harbor. The most egregious of these was a duty tax on East India Company tea that was sold in the colonies. No representation by the colonies in the British government that decided their fates, and the issuance of specific taxation upon the colonies, steeled the backbone of the citizens of the colonies to commit the act. What’s more, the British government, under King George, essentially made the East India Company specifically, and British tea in general, the only legally accepted tea that could be sold to the colonies.

Fast forward to 2009/2010. Passage of the Stimulus, with virtually no GOP support (Snowe, Collins and Specter being the lone GOP votes), and in particular, Obamacare, which received no GOP support, or even representation on writing and debating the bill’s details, and most importantly the public’s overall support for NOT passing Obamacare at the time, both were passed and signed into law.

These two biggest “achievements” during Obama’s first term are quite similar to the catalyst for revolution back in the 1770’s. And no, we weren’t represented this time around. When the Democratic party cut out any GOP representation on the deliberations for Obamacare, we didn’t have representation. When Obama turned to the GOP and proclaimed, “I won”, we didn’t have representation. When Obamacare was finalized in the dead of the night and voted on just a few short hours later, NO ONE in America had representation.

Freedom and liberty? The Democratic party, at least the leadership, doesn’t care about it. Especially not now. Let’s take your example of prohibition on raking leaves, Larry. That kind of prohibition is ok, because it is in response to those wishing the freedom and liberty to breathe fresh air and not the smoke from the fires. And it points to one important aspect of freedom and liberty. That is, having the freedom and liberty to do as you choose, as long as it doesn’t impact the freedom and liberty of those who choose otherwise. Burning leaves freely impacts others’ rights to clean, fresh air.

How does me not wishing to engage in the commerce of buying health insurance impact others’ freedoms and liberties, Larry? It doesn’t. Which makes the mandate for me engage in that commerce a direct repudiation of my freedom and liberty. I no longer have a choice. Some freedom and liberty evaporated when Obama put pen to paper. Government, specifically the federal government, took control over a portion of my life. Tyranny, albeit soft, ruled the day, so to speak.

Yes, we do live in a nation of Constitutional law. It is increasingly apparent, however, that the Constitution represents, to liberal/progressives, a mere hurdle to overcome, or ignore completely, for the government to mandate certain controls over my life, as well as yours. You may like the nice shiny shackles you have been given, but they chafe the hell out of me, Larry.

“Government can do whatever they want!” – Pete Starks, CA representative, Democrat.
“We have to pass the bill, before you can see what’s in it!” – Nancy Pelosi, CA representative, Democrat.
“I won!” – Barack Obama, US President, Democrat.
“You know we’re going to control the insurance companies!” – Joseph Biden, US Vice-President, Democrat

I have no love for what the Democratic party has evolved into over the years. And I will never agree that the Democratic party is about freedom and liberty. Maybe individuals within the party, and probably many who vote Democrat, can claim that, but the leadership of that party determines it’s course, and they have nothing to do with those two important terms.

I will, however, echo HR’s sentiments, that although I do not agree with your beliefs, I do believe that you are well-meaning in intentions.

Hi John,

I don’t have the time to do it, but I could easily find examples of Republicans behaving badly, as well. Off the top of my head, what does come to mind was the Paycheck Fairness act, which the GOP minority in the Senate killed by unanimously voting against it, leaving it 58-41 in favor, and therefore two votes short of the filibuster proof super majority. Block voting is a fact of life. Killing a bill by block voting is just as egregious, if you want to view it that way, as passing a bill by block voting. Some of the most important Supreme Court decisions of both of our lives have been decided by a single vote, but this is the way that our Founding Fathers intended it. Congress is the same way.

With regard to ObamaCare, there were many concessions made to get the votes of Republicans. Liberals wanted single payer Medicare for all; what we got was a Heritage Foundation-designed system piloted by the Republican nominee for President. The Dems proposed a trillion dollar spending stimulus. The GOP countered with $500 billion in tax cuts. The final stimulus was $750 billion, including $250 million in tax cuts. If two Republican Senators had come forward and offered to vote in favor some version of ObamaCare, they could have gotten a lot more concessions, including malpractice tort reform. But there was no willingness at all on the side of the GOP to support any version of national health insurance reform. And then there was the pledge by McConnell that the number one agenda would be to make Obama a one term President, and the total legislative gridlock which ensued. As I said, block voting is a fact of life today. One hopes that both sides have learned a lesson.

Comparing any of this to King George and taxation without representation is grotesque hyperbole. ObamaCare passed constitutional muster. You may not think that the mandate is constitutional. The Supreme Court doesn’t agree with you and they have the last word. As I noted before, the mandate wasn’t even a Democratic idea; it came right out of a conservative think tank, supported by Republican legislators and put into place by a Republican governor.

There is nothing in the Constitution about requiring two party agreement or giving one party veto power over the other. It’s all by numerical voting, with voting coalitions assembled through any Constitutional means available. What about the “legitimate concerns” of the Libertarian Party or Green Party? The National Bank was a no compromise showdown between Alexander Hamilton and James Madison which was much more consequential than the comparatively trivial Affordable Care Act. Demonizing the Democratic Party as being against freedom and liberty is hyperbolic demagoguery at its worst. What about criminalizing personal drug use and criminalizing abortion and enforcing both at the barrel of a gun? As I noted, there are lots of abridgements of personal autonomy which do not make proponents of said abridgements anti-Freedom (large F) or anti-Liberty (large L).

– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA

Hi John,

I’m entirely in favor of tax increases — for middle class as well as for the 1%. I’ve written — many times — that I’m in favor of rescinding ALL the Bush tax cuts! It’s time we started paying our own bills, in real time, rather than borrowing money and passing down the debt. I’ve been arguing that since well before Cheney uttered those immortal words “deficits don’t matter.” Back to the days when George HW Bush accurately described Reagan’s proposals as “voodoo economics.”

The fantasy that tax cuts wouldn’t lead to increased debt is what is most responsible for ruining America’s economy, along with the fantasy that money from massive tax cuts for the wealthy would be invested in business growth, as opposed to being sequestered in investments which don’t grow businesses, jobs, and middle class take home pay. Why give someone a tax deductible raise, when your taxes are so low that it makes more sense to take the money out of your company and improve your own personal circumstances? Microscopic capital gains tax rates are a cancer on the country.

By the way, an alternative way to view the ObamaCare (i.e. Heritage Foundation/RomneyCare) mandate is to say that it is a tax on everyone, but that everyone is eligible for a full tax credit, provided that they secure health insurance for themselves. There were similar mandates in effect in colonial America. Mandates that both ship companies provide insurance for seamen and seamen purchase insurance for themselves. Mandates that able bodied men purchase, possess, and maintain weapons; so that they could serve in militias, if required. There’s nothing new or insidiously anti-freedom and liberty about any of this.

– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA