In light of media criticism over Donald Trump (does he still embrace birtherism?) not setting the record straight today when he was presented with the opportunity to do so, I will make the argument here at FA for the sake of the Party; and for the sake of the honest truth.
The fact of the matter is (and this isn’t my opinion, but grounded fact and reality) this: President Obama is not an open, practicing Muslim; nor is he a closet, stealth Muslim. He is a self-professed, self-identified Christian (although I don’t believe he’s particularly religious/devout)
As a progressive liberal, multiculturalist Democrat, if President Obama were Muslim, he’d be more than happy and willing to embrace that identity, much like Representatives Keith Ellison and André Carson. He’d not only be the first “black” (or biracial) U.S. President, but also have the glass-ceiling breaking distinction of being known as the first religiously Muslim U.S. president.
Apparently, nearly a third of Americans believe President Obama is a Muslim and that he was not born here in the U.S. An astonishing 43% of Republicans believe him to be a Muslim.
Even if President Obama were a Muslim, so what? Yes: SO WHAT?
There are a great many things President Obama deserves to be criticized over. The charge of being Muslim is not one of them. Conservatives who embrace this claim really should look long and hard at themselves in the mirror and make sure it isn’t a religious or racial bigot that is staring back at them. To embrace this insane conspiracy only helps President Obama. It doesn’t hurt him. It does hurt the conservative cause. Because it gives credence and credibility to the belief that conservatives are bigoted conspiratorial nutjobs whose hatred goes beyond the political.
Here are just some of the common “evidence” used to tout President Obama’s Muslim credentials:
1. Upbringing
President Obama’s biological father was a Muslim; but was a Muslim-turned-atheist. He did not grow up knowing his father, who abandoned him when he was a baby.
His stepfather Lolo Soetoro was a nominal Muslim, described as someone who “was much more of a free spirit than a devout Muslim, according to former friends and neighbors.”:
Soetoro, who died in 1987, was hardly the image of a pious Muslim, friends and family members say.
His nephew, Sonny Trisulo, 49, said Soetoro always liked women and alcohol. One of his health problems was a failing liver. “He loved drinking, was a smart and warm person, the naughtiest one in the family,” Trisulo recalled.
In his autobiography, Obama said Soetoro followed the same kind of Islam as many Indonesians, “a brand of Islam that could make room for the remnants of more ancient animist and Hindu faiths,” the kind of Islam that meant a man could absorb the powers of the animals he ate, such as tigers and snakes.
I have a friend who lives and works in Indonesia. He converted to Islam on account of his wife. He does not recognize any of the conservative stereotypes of what a Muslim is. Was completely unfamiliar with the term and concept “taqqiyah” (a Shia tradition, and wildly distorted by Islamophobes in how it is applied); and has a Christmas tree in his home every year.
In 1967, Barack Obama became “Barry Soetoro” when he and his mother moved to Jakarta. He was 6 years old. While there, he indeed studied at a religious school, praying up to 4 times a day: It was the Santo Fransiskus Asisi (St. Francis of Assisi) Catholic School, from 1st through part of 3rd grade. He then spent the rest of 3rd and up through 4th grade at a public school- the Besuki School (not an Islamic madrassa), where he was exposed to Islam. That school was
so progressive that teachers wore miniskirts and all students were encouraged to celebrate Christmas.
Interviews with dozens of former classmates, teachers, neighbors and friends show that Obama was not a regular practicing Muslim when he was in Indonesia, despite being listed as a Muslim on the registration form for the Catholic school, Strada Asisia, where he attended 1st through 3rd grades.
At the time, the school most likely registered children based on the religion of their fathers, said Darmawan, Obama’s former teacher. Because Soetoro was a Muslim, Obama was listed as a Muslim, she said.
The enrollment form from the Catholic school, which has been cited as evidence that Obama was a Muslim in Indonesia, also was rife with errors. It listed Obama as an Indonesian, listed his previous school incorrectly and failed to list his mother, Ann, at all.
A recent description of the public Elementary School Menteng No. 1 and its students in this century is anything but that of a strict, fundamentalist Islamic madrassa:
The girls wore uniforms of knee-length skirts and no head scarves. Boys and girls shoved each other on the playground. Weekly religious classes are required for all students, whether Muslims, Christians or Hindus, under the government curriculum. A new shiny mosque is in the corner of the courtyard.
“The Muslims learn about Islam, prayer and religious activity,” said Hardi Priyono, the vice principal for curriculum. “And for the Christians, during the religious class, they also have a special room teaching Christianity. It’s always been like that. We are a public school. We have always been a public school.”
When Obama attended 4th grade in 1971, Muslim children spent two hours a week studying Islam, and Christian children spent those two hours learning about the Christian religion.
At holidays, the school made a practice of teaching students about different religions. Students from all religions celebrated Christmas with a Christmas tree and carols. They celebrated the Islamic holiday of Eid al-Adhaby handing out a sacrificed goat to the neighborhood’s needy.
Photographs from the time show teachers in sleeveless dresses. The only woman who wore a head scarf was the Islamic religion teacher.
“I was really trendy, for example, no sleeves, and miniskirts,” recalled Tine Hahiyari, 78, a Protestant who was the school’s headmaster from 1972 to1989. “When I taught sports, I wore shorts.”
This was and still remains a public school, open to all faiths.
So, no: Barry Soetoro was not indoctrinated in radical Islamic theology as a young boy. Next.
2. In his book, “Audacity of Hope”, comes this popular gotcha: “I will stand with the MUSLIMS should the political winds shift in an ugly direction”
Aye Chihuahua #12 covered this well in a response to a commenter:
you need to understand and apply context to the comment in order to understand what BO was saying when he said it.
Here is the complete quote:
“[T]hey need specific assurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.”
Basically, the comment was made in the context of a post 9/11 America when sentiment in this country was very negative toward people from the Middle East in general, Muslims specifically.
Obama was making it clear that if things turned ugly, and there were murmurings of internment camps and such in late 2001, that he would stand with whoever was the target of the roundup, and rightly so.
Finally, even if Obama was speaking of defending Muslims from some renewed internment or oppression effort in this country, would that be the wrong thing to do? I think not. I would stand with him in that effort.
There is absolutely nothing objectionable in either what he said or what he meant by the statement.
This is an ugly Internet rumor that has been spread and allowed to grow for a long time. Unfortunately, there are very few sources which tell the accurate words of the quote and the context in which it was made.
As I’ve said to you several times already, there is a multitude of things, true and accurate things, which a person can use to criticize BO.
There is absolutely no reason, and no excuse, for twisting context or just plain making things up.
You know as well as anyone how I feel about BO but we must, without exception, hold ourselves to a high standard when it comes to criticizing him lest we come off as a group of racist or bigoted tinfoil hat wearing wackos living on the far edges of the right wing.
Obama did not say he would side with “the Muslims,” which could easily be read as meaning he would side with the world’s Muslim population even if it meant working outside the best interests of the United States. He said he would side with “them,” referring back to his mention of immigrant communities and specifically to “Arab and Pakistani Americans.” Furthermore, he was speaking of an “ugly direction” like the mass internment of Japanese Americans.
For a world leader who is supposedly “siding with the Muslims”, he sure isn’t doing a great job of defending Muslims being slaughtered in Iraq and Syria. But he has perpetuated and expanded upon Drone strikes against Islamic terrorists- a program that began under President Bush. And he is credited with nailing OBL on his watch.
Expansion of ISIS and Islamic terror is not due to his aligning with them. It’s due to presidential incompetence.
3. President Obama cites from the Quran and invites Muslims to the White House.
The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics; a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam … [Islam’s] teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah …The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself.
“The Holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind.”
The President’s message includes brief quotes from the Koran, and refers to Islam as a religion that values charity, mercy and peace.
“Islam is peace. These terrorists don”t represent peace, they represent evil and war.”
These are just some of the pro-Islam statements made by our president. President Bush, who also has the distinction of having hosted the first iftar– traditional Ramadan dinner in the White House.
4. “The future must not belong to those who slander the Prophet of Islam.”
Essentially, this quote is cited as an example charging President Obama as a defender of Islam. Sure, okay. I can buy this reasoning. But his defense of Islam is not a defense of radical, political Islam; nor evidence of his “Muslim faith”. His defense, like that of his predecessor #43, is that of a world leader who seeks to marginalize the global jihad movement and not widen the war- something OBL and Zawahiri failed to do with most Muslims. And it is the kind of defense that is common and typical amongst the pc-laden, diversity-crowd/multiculturalist left.
5. President Obama’s Freudian slip: “My Muslim faith”
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUgNg7aD8M[/youtube]
Here’s a fuller context:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVn59TC2QqM[/youtube]
I’d say his slip up is due to putting his frame-of-mind in the perspective of the McCain/conservative camp- the ones who perceived him to be a Muslim.
6. Obama’s one ring to rule them all! One ring to find them. One ring to bring them all; and in the darkness bind them!
As a student at Harvard Law School, then-bachelor Barack Obama’s practice of wearing a gold band on his wedding-ring finger puzzled his colleagues.
Now, newly published photographs of Obama from the 1980s show that the ring Obama wore on his wedding-ring finger as an unmarried student is the same ring Michelle Robinson put on his finger at the couple’s wedding ceremony in 1992.
Moreover, according to Arabic-language and Islamic experts, the ring Obama has been wearing for more than 30 years is adorned with the first part of the Islamic declaration of faith, the Shahada: “There is no god except Allah.”
Jerome Corsi is a conspiracy nut.
Quick explanation: Snopes:
This claim about Barack Obama’s ring (shown in more detail here) looks to be an artifact of someone who has never actually seen the ring in question trying mightily to find a hidden message where none exists, however. All of the images used to illustrate the claim are either blurry, low-resolution close-ups or shots taken from too distant a perspective to clearly show the details of the gold band. Isolating the ring from a much higher-resolution photograph of President Obama’s hand taken by photographer Miguel Villagran during a 5 June 2009 news conference in Dresden, Germany, shows the ring to bear what looks like nothing more than a plain loop-like pattern, with the top section matching the bottom:
7. Obama bows to Saudi Prince
Yes, and Bush #43 kisses them.
The fact is, as embarrassed as many Americans might feel by the subservience of the act, it’s not exclusive to Saudi royalty:
Is there any evidence of President Obama facing Mecca on a prayer rug 5 times a day? We know he drinks beer. Is clean-shaven, eats bacon, loves music and dance, does occasionally attend church, drones radical Islamist terrorists, is a liberal/socialist-leaning Democrat, and currently champions gay marriage.
So how exactly is it that so many conservatives keep calling him a Muslim? And applies that label in a slanderous, bigoted manner?
A former fetus, the “wordsmith from nantucket” was born in Phoenix, Arizona in 1968. Adopted at birth, wordsmith grew up a military brat. He achieved his B.A. in English from the University of California, Los Angeles (graduating in the top 97% of his class), where he also competed rings for the UCLA mens gymnastics team. The events of 9/11 woke him from his political slumber and malaise. Currently a personal trainer and gymnastics coach.
The wordsmith has never been to Nantucket.
@rich wheeler: Rich, they don’t know my politics and they have no reason to try and impress me. So why would they say such bizarre things to me?
Is Democratic loyalty so strong that you will vote for a degenerate or a person who may face a serious indictment rather than break the party loyalty?
Hmm, you are bringing the integrity of the Liberal voter into question.
@Skook: It’s not about toeing the Dem. Party line—-It’s about the man himself. There are certain individuals like Palin and Trump that Dems won’t vote for.
I think the point moot because he won’t get the nom.
“Liberal voter” Would that be anyone left of you? lol
” Degenerate” ??
I think you know I’m not a wild eyed lib==I’ve said many times I won’t vote for HRC–I’ve got a Webb 2016 sticker on my car’s bumper. For 4 years I’ve been predicting Rubio will one day be Prez–Maybe 2016–this is a man who CAN get enough Dem. votes to be Prez–Trump nom will assure another Dem. victory.
@Redteam:
2 + 2 = koolaid is my favorite onion
@rich wheeler:
Period. Dot. Bingo!
Thanks, Rich.
@Wordsmith:
I still do not understand the purpose of your entry, Wordsmith. Do you feel an obligation to dispel the opinions of every idiot/conspiracy theorist on both sides of the aisle or just those who you have determined are on the right?
I am not going to argue with morons who swear and be damned that Obama is a Muslim because I think Obama has, in reality, no religious allegiance. Just as I refused to argue with the 9/11 truthers or defend President Bush against them. They have their opinions and no amount of debate will change them. It is not my place to defend the President of the United States against conspiracies. He has the entire media to do that for him and my lone voice achieves nothing.
Rich says that those who believe Obama is a Muslim hurts the Republican cause. Did the 9/11 truthers, mostly left wingers, hurt the Democratic cause? Did the Democrats hold them accountable for their opinions about President Bush? No, because Rich’s philosophy of holding people accountable for the stupid stuff they say (an Alinsky tacticseems to apply to only one party and one side of the aisle.
Again, when you find that you are being praised for your opinion by a left wing Democrat, perhaps you should check exactly what party you really affiliate with.
@retire05:
You snark-baiter, you! 🙂 That made me snarf my coffee!
Maybe it was meant for the enjoyment of others and not you? Enter the thread with dry, humorless snark and expect something back in kind? Why is “perhaps” boldened? We’ll get to that later down this reply. 🙂
Yes, but what about rounding up Muslims as a lump sum? Similar to what happened to Japanese-Americans in WWII? Would you support that?
Yes, you’ve brought this favorite talking point of yours up before; and I agree with you on it. However, this is not what is grabbing headlines (it should be noted by the media or pushed by a candidate, just as stats don’t support the media-and-activist-driven (mis)perception that it’s “open season” on blacks by cops). When you have a GOP presidential candidate who does not refute Muslim Question Guy’s basic premise; when you have a presidential candidate on Meet the Press say he does not believe a Muslim should be president of the United States (is there a religious test writ somewhere in the Constitution we should all be aware about?), then it’s difficult to cry foul when the liberal media accuses our side of bigotry while we are living up to the reputation.
Do you think he sat in the pew for 20 yrs listening to Reverend Wright shrill “goddamn America”? I believe his alliance to Wright’s church was one of politics. I don’t think we are in disagreement in how Obama uses religion to play politics. He seems to identify with the Christian faith but is not particularly religious.
I’m saying that the Democratic Party of today has moved further left. Obama echoes and is parroted by a number of today’s Democrats.
Policy-wise, who do you feel has moved this country further Left? FDR? LBJ? Obama? Here’s your favorite cultural crusader, Michael Medved, and his take. 🙂
I guess at the beginning of your comment reply, you weren’t “dealing in hypotheticals” either with use of the word “perhaps”, right? :-p
I believe Ann Coulter to be pro-Israel, despite the current flak she is receiving.
How about Pat Buchanan? Ron Paul?
So, support policies not entirely favorable toward Israel or show pro-Palestinian sympathies and that makes you Muslim? Is that the logic? Can you clarify your point here so that I don’t inadvertently “put words in your mouth”.
I think you are forgetting the context of my reply to your original comment. Scroll up. Of course you don’t have to be a member of the Brotherhood to by sympathetic to their cause. The point being made harkens back to those who wish to label Obama a “muslim”. Not “muslim sympathizer and apologist”.
Ah…but here we have one president who opponents wish to conclude must be a Muslim due to “ties”, no matter any 6 degrees of separation which might exist; but in the case of the other president, no accusations of being a closet Muslim. Why is that? Certainly, some of it is brought on by President Obama himself by muddying the waters; however, the other proportion of it is brought on by conspiracists, racists, and religious bigots.
I was told by a very smart conservative that Greg, “our resident radical leftist”, uses “perhaps” a lot and that I should not deal in hypotheticals.
Sorry for the snark. 😉
Agreed. But my responses aren’t always about “all about you”. You’re spending your valuable time penning some defense against the premise and point of my post. And if you read what you original wrote, maybe you’d understand what I am replying back to. You’re “I told you I don’t think Obama is a Muslim” misses the context of where the conversation started.
Rich gets it.
You are….again. Geez and sheesh!
Perhaps….perhaps not. 😀
It would be if the premise of your strawman questioning were true.
You have been applying the same fuzzy logic by implying if Obama is inadvertently helping Hamas or supports policy that is not pro-Israel, then he could be Muslim (of course now you’ll once again say you don’t believe he is Muslim and not to put words in your mouth).
My gosh…..you’re right. This’ll be my last response to you and rt.
(No, no, no- don’t be offended! I jest! I snark! I don’t think of you and rt as idiots).
Serious response: Trump said the same thing, as you know. The difference is, he’s on the bully pulpit with the sensationalist-loving media spotlighting everything he says and does. He is running for president. He could have helped himself and the conservative brand by challenging the Muslim Question Guy. It was a golden opportunity for him and he failed to see it.
I’m not trying to “create a trap” for conservatives. I’m acknowledging your reality that the liberal media ceases openings that we give them.
Should defending truth not be a good defense of the conservative name-brand? Or do we win by “Saul Alinsky” tactics?
Perhaps. 😉
“Clarion call” or “TRUMPet noise”? 😉
Thank you, retire!
@retire05:
It’s right there, as light and bright as the day is long .
Both sides. Not obligated. Not “every”. Just when I take an interest to address. But you seem to only get rankled when I call out those on the right.
Yes. But sometimes, because the liberal media is what it is, will take that silence as complicit agreement. A “look the other way” kind of acceptance.
He says that this is the purpose of my post- in rebutting the liberal narrative of conservative religious bigotry. In the process of doing so, there are those commenters who confirm the media narrative when they speak their piece and defend what’s indefensibly racist/religiously bigoted.
Yes. I believe Howard Dean hurt himself when he entertained the idea that Bush had prior knowledge on 9/11. Groups like Code Pink are outside the American mainstream.
Do you approve of Alinsky tactics in attacking the left? Do you approve of dishonest propaganda rather than truthful propaganda in promoting the conservative cause?
Perhaps. 😀
@Wordsmith:
You like onion flavored koolaid? I’ve never tried any. So are you saying that you do ‘accidentally’ refer to yourself as Muslim occasionally? I never have. Can’t imagine getting into such a state of mind that I begin to think I’m a Muslim. You have my permission to think that someone that is concerned about the qualifications of the person we vote for as president is a koolaid drinker, but that’s only an admission on your part that you just don’t think about things like that and anyone that chooses to run ‘must be legitimate’. This country has just gone through 7 years and we still have one more year to go with a person that is not qualified. We don’t need to elect another one in the future because if that person had the same intentions as the one we have presently, then we will end up with a drastically changed country. I know there are supposed to be ‘checks and balances’, but when someone in the oval office just starts issuing illegal executive orders and the congress lays down and lets him and the Supreme Court starts legislating from the bench in that person’s favor then our days of a Constitutional republic are numbered. It might be of benefit to you to at least check into the requirements for president and quit advocating that persons not fulfilling those, be elected. From my point of view, a natural born citizen is a person that is born with two US citizen parents. Cruz, Rubio, Jindal and Obama do not fulfill that requirement. No matter how many times you and Rich say that makes me a ‘birther’, just bear in mind that Hillary and her crew came up with that term and Rich is on the liberal side. There are over 300 million persons in the US and there are enough that are qualified that we don’t really have to go into the ‘unqualified’ crowd.
So, you have actually gotten so excited in a discussion that you referred to yourself as a Muslim? Interesting? Very interesting….
When did it become appropriate or expected that a presidential candidate is expected to defend his opponents positiont? How many times have you ever heard Obama defending Trump’s position? Isn’t it proper that each defend his own position? I know some make a big deal about ‘not seeiing Obama bow to Mecca’ but then how many times do you see him bowing to Christ? I believe his official record on church worship attendance in a Christian church, since becoming president is zero. He has certainly been into a Mosque many more times than that.
I don’t pretend to defend Obama, he is doing enough damage without my support.
This next debate is going to be interesting if the objective is going to change to ‘defend your opponents’ position’ rather than to defend your own.
So many point out that McCain defended Obama. Well, we need to understand what McCain’s objective was. It wasn’t what many thought it to be. I think each candidate should defend himself and let the other’s defend themselves. And Obama is fully capable of defending himself.
I haven’t seen any ‘proof’ that these were ‘errors’. Maybe he was an Indonesian at that time. Just because someone ‘says’ it is ‘rife with errors’ does not make it so.
‘credited with’? Have you read the truth of the events in the situation room when the ‘strike’ was ordered?
How many times have you quoted the Koran? How often does he quote the Bible? I don’t even know any quotes from the Koran and don’t intend to learn any.
See that last word? Either he means it, or he doesn’t. Was he defending Islam, or not?
So, the explanation did not include why he was wearing a wedding ring while at Harvard. Who was he married to at that time? Why is that not public knowledge?
And finally:
Maybe because he does so many things just as he would ‘if’ he were a Muslim. Because he dresses up like a Muslim with a turban on his head. Because he imports Muslims by the thousands and doesn’t import Christians by the thousands. What makes that ‘slanderous or bigoted?
Tell us why you feel a need to defend him? Don’t you think he has enough defenders? You are more critical of conservatives than you are of Obama and he has made it clear that he intends to do all the damage he can to the country in what time he has left.
I’ve never ‘accidentally’ worn a turban, never accidentally quoted the Koran, never accidentally said I’m a Muslim. Wonder if it’s because I don’t ‘think’ as a Muslim either? Just wondering.
@Redteam:
At least you’re consistent in your argument. That said, if you’re right, then how is it that President Obama remains president? And how is it that Cruz, Jindal, and Rubio are not being called out on their supposed ineligibility (aside from birthers making it an issue)? How was Romney’s father ineligible?
@Redteam:
That would be incorrect. Sorry. Should I search for a FOX link? WND? Newsmax?
He’s attended church over 18 times apparently. Care to cite a research figure regarding the number of times he’s been in a mosque? How many times do you think W stepped foot into a mosque while president? It’s been more than once. And according to this writer:
However it does seem he’s stepped foot in a mosque outside the U.S. (as has other U.S. leaders and ambassadors of good will). He certainly didn’t go there to pray on his knees in the direction of Mecca, rt.
As Rich understands, this post is not about defending Obama (his personal religious convictions aren’t something I lose sleep over). It’s about the truth for the sake of not allowing our side to be painted by the liberal critics as the party of bigots, racists, and conspiracy nuts.
What was McCain’s objective, pray tell?
*facepalm*
@Redteam:
C’mon, rt. You and Spencerians know all the sword verses.
And I believe we’ve been down this road before regarding how often Obama quotes from the Bible (as though it’s less often than all other presidents before him, as if it mattered). Again, I don’t feel religion plays a big factor in his personal life. Not in the sense of him being a devout Bible-thumping evangelical. He’s more like typical mainstream Americans who identify themselves as Christian, yet don’t regularly attend Church and read the Bible.
@Redteam:
He’s defending the Islam of the “religion of peace” variety. He’s not defending radical Islam, extremists, militants, political Islamists. People who say Islamist terrorists have “hijacked the religion” might be wrong; but please don’t twist and distort who he’s trying to speak up for and defend. His views are the same as all the countless liberals and Democrats who have no mistaken ties and identity to Islam who always are quick to defend Muslims against perceived and actual instances of anti-Muslim bigotry.
Word:
Even if you do, then I can’t begin to imagine what you think of folks such as Rich and Greg.
@Redteam:
*Groan*. Probably not a wedding ring. I think he put it on his wedding ring finger back then just to drive you conspiratorially crazy in 2015. I’m sure Corsi and World Nut Daily will be more than happy to provide you with the answers you seek.
Oh? Like what? Not drink alcohol? Avoid bacon? Not shave? Excuse himself from his Secret Service detail so he can unfurl his prayer rug and face Mecca 5 times a day?
Yes. One photo. Taken when and under what circumstance? He does this……when and how often?
I’ve seen a photo of Gene Roddenberry dressed in a kimono (I think it was his wedding?). Doesn’t make me think he’s Japanese.
Are you talking about Syrian refugees? Has that already happened? Is it because they are Muslim specifically or that they happen to be Muslim? Is it because he “stands with his Muslim brothers” or because he’s a bleeding-heart liberal and a politician?
To the degree that there is more prejudice against Muslims in the U.S. than there are anti-Semitic incidents. It’s a perception-issue on your part.
Look at my history in blogposts. Count how many of them are pro-Obama and speak admiringly of him. Then count how many are critical of the president.
Do you know any Muslims in your personal life, rt?
@Wordsmith:
His father wasn’t ‘ineligible’. As I recall that, both of his parents were either citizens of the US or one of them was born in a territory(which became a state) in either case he was eligible.
As for why others don’t bring up the ‘eligibility’ issue, it seems to be because there are a huge audience out there waiting to jump on someone for their ideals and call them such things as ‘birthers’ and ‘truthers’. I would say that they are mostly ignorant on the subject (in fact all politics) and just want to use it to denigrate those they disagree with. You can find, if you really wanted to know, that Rubio has acknowledged in the past that he’s not a natural born citizen because neither of his parents were US citizens, but now that the Dimocrats have broken the mold and the Supreme Court won’t even listen to arguments on the subject, he has now figured out that he can run for president also.
You can keep putting up your ‘koolaid drinkers’ message all you want to, but it won’t change my mind and it certainly doesn’t add to your credibility. Until Obama ran, there was never any doubt as to what a natural born citizen is. But to justify what they want, many are willing to look the other way. There are millions of folks qualified to be president and there are no qualities of a non eligible person that should outweigh the benefits of the truth. While I still maintain that certain persons are not eligible, I don’t argue the requirements because if you don’t know by now, you’ll never know.
@Redteam:
My snark is worse than my bite, rt. 🙂
@Redteam:
Labels can be a convenient way of simply identifying where people stand, even if they are sometimes delivered and taken as slander. At this point, the arguments put forth by birthers and truthers have been hashed out and rehashed ad nauseam. Certainly it’s nice to patiently listen to the other side in honest debate and dialogue; but the problem is ideological entrenchment and self-indoctrination prevents any movement in either direction. Birthers gonna “birth” and Truthers gonna “truth”. No amount of rational reasoning and logic can bring back someone who’s bought into conspiratorial brainscrub. So at this point, most people are too exasperated to bother trying and find it easier to just dismiss them instead of convincing the inconvincible.
rt,
Why not accuse John Kerry of being Muslim, using the same rationale and standard being applied to Obama?
When female U.S. politicians wear head scarfs in Muslim countries, is this evidence of them being Muslim? So why a photo of Obama in tradional Somali dress? By any objective standards, how can anyone believe this is proof of Obama being a Muslim?
@Wordsmith:
Rich has about the worst opinions and perspectives of anyone I know, so I wouldn’t be pointing out to accouterments from him while bashing conservatives.
Naw…..Rich has the best opinion and perspective when he’s praising me. That’s the time to listen to him! 😀
Uh oh…..President Obama caught wearing a yarmulke and praying at the Western Wall! What will his Muslim Brotherhood brothers say about this?!
We have a Jew in the White House, folks! And like so many typical American liberal Jews, he votes solid Democrat! 😀
@Wordsmith:
The old ‘everybody does it argument’ I don’t particularly care for the practice of referring to people as if they are followers of someone, such as Corsi or World Nut Daily, just because they happen to share a belief. Such as I refuse to refer to you as a follower of Rich. I’ve not made a study of Corsi’s writings other than I did read quite a bit of what he wrote about that outstanding American traitor, John Kerry. I know nothing of ‘truthers’. I’ve never given the ‘thought that 9/11 was an inside job” the time of day.
So you’re saying that if someone believes that there is such a thing as ‘natural born citizen’ then their brain has been hopelessly ‘conspiratorially brainscrubbed’ and there is no hope that they can be brought back. I usually find that those that are ‘too exasperationally exhausted’ just can’t keep up with or understand the subject and get to their point out of ignorance. It’s not the ignorance that troubles me, it’s the obvious fact that they just DGAF. and find it easier to just point fingers and shake their heads. At some point, American citizens need to get their heads out of the sand and look around, hopefully while there is still something out there to look at.
I no longer keep up with John Kerry, once he became a traitor that was all I needed.
@Wordsmith:
Why you would think that Republicans/conservatives would accept that you are defending Obama against the nay sayers and are only seeking truth, justice and the American way (do you have a Superman complex?) is beyond me.
As I said, and you seem unwilling to accept, I have no responsibility to fight ignorance when it comes to Obama, or any other president. And why you think that applying Saul Alinsky rules to Republicans/conservatives, which you have consistently done with the loud approval of a dedicated leftist, can be cloaked as something else, is also beyond me.
So let’s just agree to disagree and I will continue to question your bona fides as a Republican/conservative who seems to have a need to offer a defense for the worst president in the history of our nation.
@Wordsmith: Western Wall, isn’t that the Wailing Wall? I’ve been there, laid my hands on it and did not wear a Jewish whatever. I don’t have to pretend. Is that his point? He’s pretending to something he’s not? What’s the point, for him?
@Wordsmith:
Just like you will never convince the 30% who believe Obama is a Muslim that he is not or the 9/11 Truthers that Bush didn’t bow up the WTC, you will never change the critics on the left either. That is a key component of their propaganda. They don’t need real examples because they will make them up just like “Hands up, don’t shoot.” How many times have the resident lefties and trolls come here and tell us that conservatives are the biggest threat to the country? This country right now is about as hostile and united as it was in Antebellum America.
@Redteam: Go back and re-read the comment you are addressing. I acknowledged that to do it right, you should be willing to listen honestly to the other side. But at this point, Truther and Birther arguments have been hashed out to death; unless you have some new argument I’ve not heard before.
Did you bother to look deeper at the Factcheck.org link in my post? Or did you conveniently decide to poo-poo the message because you don’t like the messenger?
Which fails to address and answer the point: You used the claim that Obama was letting in thousands of Muslim refugees as somehow evidence of Obama’s “Muslimhood”; or at least pondering it. Why not apply the same standard of “evidence” and critical thinking to John Kerry and his advocacy of letting in thousands of Syrian refugees?
@Wordsmith: So is your logic that wearing Muslim clothes proves he’s NOT a muslim? I would not, with what has gone in this world, put on a Muslim outfit and take photos of it. I respect this country much too much to denigrate it that way.
@Redteam:
Ok so I guess Bush and countless others have been pretenders by donning a Jewish whatever on their heads; so how is he a pretender in this instance and authentic when a Somali Sheikh dresses Obama up in traditional garb?
@Redteam:
Oh my gee!
Nearest brick wall, please!
@another vet:
That doesn’t seem to be Wordsmith’s goal, AV. His goal seems to be to defend Obama against the naysayers, playing defense instead of offense (which is exactly the position the left wants us to take. Pure Alinsky).
My time is better served pointing out to others the failures of the party of lessened national security, failed economic recoveries, politics of division instead of unification, low military moral, out of control national debt, lessened personal freedoms and no answers on how to get the nation back on the right track.
Let the Democrats/liberals/progressives defend Obama. That’s not my job. Nor is it the job of any conservative who sees the damage Obama is reaping on this nation.
@retire05:
In the past, people have sent me emails making accusations about Obama that seemed far enough out there to where I checked them out and found them to be false. Rather than forward them, I would email the sender back and tell them I wasn’t going to forward the email because it was bad info. In no way was I defending Obama. Everyone who knows me knows how much I dislike the man both as a President and as a person. I just don’t believe in basing my arguments or criticisms on bad info. I believe that is the goal of Word. He is certainly no fan of Obama and has demonstrated that numerous times.
I appreciate his quest for civility but unfortunately the left has demonstrated that they are anything but civil and trying to be civil with them is a losing battle. Just last night I handed the August 2015 BLS stats to a lefty clearly showing that there are 94 million plus not in the labor force. He didn’t believe it. He also overstated the number of employed people in the country by 28 million and the number of retirees by 20 million despite having the numbers to the former in front of him. When he tried to tell me not to blame Obama, I told him he blamed Bush when he was in office for the same thing. He told me f*** you and I told him the same thing back. If he wasn’t in his 70’s he would have been on the floor. This is the same lefty who accuses me of being a racist for not liking Obama despite his liberal use of the ‘n’ bomb when he talks about blacks. He even referred to Herman Cain and Obama himself as n****** during the 2012 election cycle.
You all are reminding me of Bob Dylan’s very 1st album.
It had a song with these lyrics:
Title, “I shall be free.” 1963
Yes, for a very long time now, politicians have dressed up ethnically and eaten almost every ethnic variety of food.
It doesn’t mean diddly.
@another vet:
So, Wordsmiths efforts become moot, don’t they? And defending Obama against the naysayers is a bit different than returning an email to some idiot that subscribes to the Chicken Little philosophy.
What you did with the liberal is an offensive action, not defensive. Informing a low information voter is the best way to get the word out how utterly destructive this administration has been to our nation, not taking on conservatives because they don’t speak out against idiots.
Alinsky Rule 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.
* RULE 5: “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
RULE 8: “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.” Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new.
IOW, demand the opposition adheres to the rules you create for them. Force them to defend themselves while your side does not defend itself.
@Wordsmith:
Actually, yes I did, but only because you supplied a link. Fact chek, on political issues is very solidly left and can not be relied on for the ‘truth’. Snopes is the same way. who do I rely on, if I read something and can find back up data supporting it, I would likely tend to believe it. But just because lefties say so, doesn’t make it so.
Do I have any Muslim friends? Not that comes to mind, but I’ve been around a long time and might have known some that were not particularly memorable in the past. Does a person have to have Muslim friends to understand muslims? Do you suppose that the friends of the Muslims that flew the aircraft into the twin towers felt like they were ‘fine people’? I’ll bet the Boston marathon bomber had friends that thought they were fine people. Does that matter?
Oh, okay. So we need further evidence that John Kerry is pond scum? Once that’s established, it’s not usually necessary to go back and swim in the pond again. John Kerry, long ago clearly demonstrated the content of his character.
@retire05: I ‘ve never read anything by Alinsky but based on your description of his rules 5,8 and 12 you certainly are an admiring, dedicated follower.
@Wordsmith:
You’ve made several references to birthers and truthers. I don’t know any. A birther is a Hillary Clinton supporter that believes Obama was not born in the US. A truther is someone that believes Bush set up 9/11. I am neither of these, so if you want to bash your head against a brick wall because you don’t know any reasonable arguments against a person that does not fit your mold. Be my guest. For some reason, Rich likes your take on things. I don’t like Rich’s take on things, he is a dyed in the wool social liberal and I don’t share his beliefs.
AV says above:
I don’t understand why a ‘conservative’ would spend a large part of time defending a liberal when that liberal would spend no time defending the intentions of a conservative.
I agree with AV, the quest for civility with liberals has ‘left the barn’. It’s not enough for them to be right, the conservatives have to be wrong. They don’t need any defense, the liberals are sinking the country quite well, all by themselves.
I would advise anyone to try to avoid brick walls, especially if it involves a head.
@Nanny G: We can learn a lot from the apolitical Bob Dylan–has never endorsed a pol—but damn he’s had a lot to say about the human condition—The poet laureate of our time. A great seer and purveyor of truth.
@Wordsmith:
That would be a good point IF you could show me where I said it is okay for Bush to dress up like a Muslim or a Jew. I don’t believe I have said such a thing. I don’t wear Jewish religious wear or muslim religious wear for obvious reasons. I’m not a phony. Is it phony if it’s Bush, Certainly, just because one does something stupid doesn’t make it less stupid if the other one does the same thing.
Conservatives are not going to stop lefties from being lefties. Even if we are ‘nice’ to them, they are not going to be nice to conservatives. That ship has sailed.
@rich wheeler:
you’re home schooled, without Books? Alright……..
@Redteam: Are you also, like 05, an admirer and devotee of Alinsky? Interesting pattern developing here at FA.
Pols take note—The world’s most popular and well respected man about to visit our shores—A man of Peace and Humility.
@rich wheeler:
Sorry to bust your bubble, but I stay away from those socialists marxists.
What? Obama is out of the country and is coming back?
The Pope needs to stay out of global warming. He’s not objective and has an agenda.
Let him hang onto religion as a subject. That kinda like Obama getting into religion, like pretending to know something about Christianity or something.
@rich wheeler:
I’ve also read Marx, Engels and Hitler. Just because you can’t comprehend that someone can read the writings of Marxists/Socialists/Communists and not be a fan, is not my problem, it’s yours. So, if I quote Hitler to make a point about leftism, in your mind does that make me “an admiring, dedicated follower?”
You’re such a shallow thinker, RW.
@Redteam:
Guess RW has never heard the phrase “Know thy enemies.” Or maybe RW just sticks with books that only have pictures in them.
@retire05:In your postings you seem to adhere closely to 5 ,8 and 12. Not so?
Why would I waste my time reading such drivel?
@rich wheeler:
And would I be wrong to use the left’s own tactics against them?
Just because someone is a leftist, I don’t discount someone who was/is brilliant. Alinsky was a brilliant man, who fostered a relationship with Hillary Clinton that lasted until his death. Should I discount his brilliance that seems to have resonated with your side of the aisle?
I also don’t discount the brilliance of David Axelrod. He took fairy wings and created whole cloth from them. Yet I am not a fan of David Axelrod’s, nor do I agree with him on any issue.
Again, simply shallow thinking on your part. You should read Sun Tzu to understand why I read the leftists that you seem to think write “drivel.”
Why do you spend so much time writing drivel?
@retire05:
You’re talking ‘coloring books’, he probably already has most of them colored.
@Nanny G: I never could understand what he was singing (saying) in that last line, but I was never curious enough to look it up. After all these years, it is really funny.
@Redteam:
This would be okay if you can show me where I said you said….. 🙂
Jebus Fudgin’ Cripes! Seriously?! Let me connect dots for you on the flow of conversation:
You seem to suggest that one photo of Obama being dressed up in traditional Somali garb is suspicious of his possible “Muslimness”.
I point out how a number of foreign dignitaries might wear head scarfs; or don traditional clothing for any number of reasons that don’t make them suspiciously native. By way of hammering the point, I offer a photo of Obama praying at the Western Wall wearing a Yamulke (or “Jewish whatever” as you call it).
You dismiss this- while totally not getting the point- by excusing this as Obama pretense/sucking up, comparing it with how you didn’t feel the need to be “phony” and wear a “Jewish whatever”; which brings us to why I also chose to illustrate how it’s not just exclusive to Obama- a number of non-Jewish dignitaries have done likewise. But because it’s Obama, there’s something malevolent behind the act.
Obama wears suspiciously Islamic dress- OMG! Muzzie!
Obama wears Yamulke- OMG! Suck up! (By applying the same logic you went there with, in regards to the “Islamic” garb- wouldn’t the yamulke make him Jewish in your eyes?)
Hey, rt! Did you know that Obama once said “I’m Islamic in my soul”?!
@wordsmith:
I didn’t say that you said it. I said if you could show me where I had said it.
You don’t need to connect the dots. I’m fully capable. If you don’t like the connections, maybe you should look at your map.
Somali garb? So it has nothing to do with Muslims? Are you prepared to say that Somali’s have nothing to do with Muslims or Islam? Or are you trying to misdirect the ‘dots’?
So the point of Obama wearing a yarmulke was? As I said I’ve been there twice and never felt a burning need to wear a yarmulke or ‘traditional Somali garb’. Wasn’t it the Somali’s that shot down the Black Hawk? Was he wearing his costume in sympathy with the Somali’s?
Since you think this is such a ‘noble move’ on Obama’s part, how many times have you dressed up in traditional ‘non-Christian’ garb?
I don’t consider head scarves to be ‘religious garb’ I’ve seen almost all women in the US wear head scarves, especially in the winter. I consider it winter clothing. The only people I regularly see wearing religious garb are persons of the religion that the garb represents. Have you ever seen any Muslims wearing Roman Catholic habits? Have you ever seen Muslims wearing Jewish garb, (well, other than Obama)
Word, I get the point. Instead of thinking you have to ‘talk down’ to someone so they can get your point, why don’t you just assume that the person you are communicating with is at the same level and can ‘get a point’. I will concede that at times I might not make a point as clear as I’d like, but then I’m not the only one guilty of that.
So just because I think the citizens of the US should follow the constitution and only elect persons to that office that fulfill the requirements spelled out in the constitution does not mean that the fact that a question about someone’s qualifications is asked means that someone does not understand the constitution. Just because you and others are willing to throw in the towel and disregard the qualifications because ‘it’s not worth arguing over’ is a pitiful excuse for not caring about the laws of the USA.
Your point? Is that supposed to surprise someone? Does it surprise you? Do you take his word for it or do you consider him to be a liar?
He was well trained and prepared for his role. He has been able to fool a lot of people for a long time.