Coffee, CCW, Open Carry, and Shopping Malls

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“It is far better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war.”
-Proverb

*UPDATED* 9/26/2013 11:25

Starbucks in Pflugerville, Texas
August 10, 2013 CJ in Starbucks in Pflugerville, Texas
CJ patronizing Starbucks in Temple, Texas, without incident.
CJ patronizing Starbucks in Temple, Texas, without incident. August 10, 2013

*END UPDATE*


Our saviour: The soldier, whose gun is circled, helps two women to safety. His identity has been protected for security reasons

I love coffee. But I don’t drink it everyday. Nor do I need the caffeine-fix. I simply like the taste. When I was growing up, I used to love going to Japan and having bottled coffee milk. It was like chocolate milk; but coffee flavored, and sweet. They no longer sell those. Just watered down iced coffee beverages.

Starbucks Frappuccinos are somewhat reminiscent of my favorite childhood drink in Japan. But it leaves a bad aftertaste in my mouth. And frankly, I prefer Coffee Bean’s pure vanilla ice-blended.

Well, 6 days ago Starbucks left another bad taste in my mouth:

Our company’s longstanding approach to “open carry” has been to follow local laws: we permit it in states where allowed and we prohibit it in states where these laws don’t exist. We have chosen this approach because we believe our store partners should not be put in the uncomfortable position of requiring customers to disarm or leave our stores. We believe that gun policy should be addressed by government and law enforcement—not by Starbucks and our store partners.

Recently, however, we’ve seen the “open carry” debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners.

For these reasons, today we are respectfully requesting that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas—even in states where “open carry” is permitted—unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

I would like to clarify two points. First, this is a request and not an outright ban. Why? Because we want to give responsible gun owners the chance to respect our request—and also because enforcing a ban would potentially require our partners to confront armed customers, and that is not a role I am comfortable asking Starbucks partners to take on. Second, we know we cannot satisfy everyone. For those who oppose “open carry,” we believe the legislative and policy-making process is the proper arena for this debate, not our stores. For those who champion “open carry,” please respect that Starbucks stores are places where everyone should feel relaxed and comfortable. The presence of a weapon in our stores is unsettling and upsetting for many of our customers.

I am proud of our country and our heritage of civil discourse and debate. It is in this spirit that we make today’s request. Whatever your view, I encourage you to be responsible and respectful of each other as citizens and neighbors.

Starbucks is free to not only make such a request of its patrons; but to ban firearms on its own premises, if so desired.

Peggy Noonan in an interview with the CEO:

The company, which has some 10,000 stores and 160,000 employees in the U.S., is asking customers who carry handguns in open-carry states to please not bring their guns into the store. It’s hard to believe this will be taken as controversial or as anything other than reasonable, fair and sane, but we are an interesting country.

I spoke to Starbucks Chairman Howard Schultz this afternoon, by phone.

Why did you do this? Why does Starbucks have to have a position on people bringing guns in for coffee?

“We are not a policy maker and we’re not on any level anti-gun. But over the past four months there’s been episodes in and around our stores that alarmed us. Advocates on both sides [of the gun debate] began to stage events in and around Starbucks stores that mischaracterized Starbucks’ brand and position. That was not in the interests of our company, our shareholders and employees. So open-carry comes, and we abide by the law. But it began to disturb us, the number of customers and children who became alarmed at seeing people in the store carrying guns. . . . We had a couple situations the past few weeks where some people walked in with rifles! [Some local Starbucks stores] became a staging area for the argument over Second Amendment rights. We’re not pro-gun or anti-gun, and we decided to respectfully ask gun owners to leave their guns out of Starbucks.”

And yet by this request not to bring firearms on their premises is indeed taking a position; one on the side of the anti-gun advocates. They are not taking a neutral position. Think of the reverse reasoning if it read: ….it began to disturb us, the number of customers and children who became alarmed at seeing people in the store not carrying guns. . . . We had a couple situations the past few weeks where some people walked in without rifles!

Why did Starbucks become a theater of the gun debate?

“Our stores are a meeting place, coffee’s been part of conversation for hundreds of years” he said. This fact “became a natural opportunity for people to use us as a staging ground.”

How do you imagine this working—how do people who carry guns in open-carry states disarm themselves to get a cup of coffee?

“This decision was made through the lens of our values. . . . It’s not a ban. We’ll serve customers and not ask them to leave. . . . I personally have spent endless hours on this issue. I’ve spoken to passionate advocates on both sides.” He notes that two members of the Starbucks board are former Defense Secretary Bob Gates and former Sen. Bill Bradley. The board voted in support of the request. “We viewed this through the lens of bipartisanship.”


~~~

Everyone probably asks you if you have guns. Do you have guns?

“I’m not gonna answer it because I don’t think it’s about me.”

Frankly, I feel safer when good citizens are trained and armed.

And in light of the Nairobi Mall terror attack, there is heightened concerns about the possibility of our own malls being staging grounds for future terror attacks.

Would you rather be among sheep or among sheepdog when the wolves come to play?

The Daily Mail has a possible answer:

A former marine emerged as a hero of the Nairobi siege yesterday after he was credited with saving up to 100 lives.

The ex soldier was having coffee at the Westgate mall when it was attacked by Islamists on Saturday.

With a gun tucked into his waistband, he was pictured helping two women from the complex.

His story emerged as sporadic gunfire continued to ring out from inside the mall early today as Kenyan security forces battled Al Qaeda-linked terrorists into a fourth day.

The former soldier is said to have returned to the building on a dozen occasions, despite intense gunfire.

A friend in Nairobi said: ‘What he did was so heroic. He was having coffee with friends when it happened.

‘He went back in 12 times and saved 100 people. Imagine going back in when you knew what was going on inside.’

I wonder what coffee shop he was hanging out in? [/snicker]

Homegrown Islamic terror is a problem. How many radicalized youths come from Somali descent? In the Nairobi attack, 3 of the terrorists might be Americans, with one a British female:

A photo of fake South African passport of Samantha Lewthwaite released by Kenyan police in December 2011. Samantha Lewthwaite, nicknamed 'The white widow', widow of suicide bomber Germaine Lindsay, who blew himself up on a London Underground train on July 7, 2005, killing 26 people, may be among the members of the terrorist cell behind the Nairobi mall massacre.
A photo of fake South African passport of Samantha Lewthwaite released by Kenyan police in December 2011. Samantha Lewthwaite, nicknamed ‘The white widow’, widow of suicide bomber Germaine Lindsay, who blew himself up on a London Underground train on July 7, 2005, killing 26 people, may be among the members of the terrorist cell behind the Nairobi mall massacre.

The attacker from Britain was a woman who has ‘done this many times before,’ Mohamed said which lends weight to speculation that the so-called ‘White Widow’, Samantha Lewhwaite may have taken part in the raid.

U.S. officials said they were looking into whether any Americans were involved. State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said Monday that the department had ‘no definitive evidence of the nationalities or the identities’ of the attackers.

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Mahatma Ghandhi ” Among the many misdeads of the British rule in India, history will look apon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.”
A 2nd amendment advocate as am I.
Oct 2 is International Non Violence Day commemorating his death.
“poverty is the worst form of violence”
“the greatness of a nation can be judged by the way it’s animals are treated.”
Petercat I was not being condescending towards you. I wish you and yours only the best.
Skooks and Word Thanks for your informed input.

@Doramin: #98
I am reading many stories about teachers from grade schools, all the way up to the universities brainwashing our kids against conservatism and away from the US Constitution, the Christian and Jewish religions, and that Tea Partiers are terrorists. I agree with Glenn Beck that the Muslim Brotherhood has infiltrated our schools, government, and other things, just like the USA has and is doing to overthrow other countries.

More schools are taking kids to Muslim mosques without asking the parent’s permission. Some schools don’t say the Pledge of Allegiance any more. One school took down the American flag. You never hear of any of the teachers or administrators being fired. Those of you with kids or grandkids in school, keep track of what your school is teaching. Look at the things they are reading. If the school uses the Common Core curriculum, try to get a copy of it to see what they are teaching your kids. You won’t get it. Why don’t they want parents to know what they are teaching your kids?

Someone get in touch with James O’Keefe. This is now the era of Googleglass and all manner of easily concealed digital recording devices. How about a battalion of junior G-men surveilling their teachers and putting up the most egregious excesses on YouTube and Breitbart. It has already been floated that there should be cameras in every classroom that parents and anyone else can access online.

@Skookum: #100
You’re welcome in Idaho any time. Each county sheriff decides whether an individual has to take a training course to get a concealed carry permit. My sheriff doesn’t. Open carry is legal, even in a vehicle, if it is visible from the outside. No restrictions on the kind of ammo you can have, or how much. You would fit in very well here.

@Richard Wheeler: #102
It’s cool, Richard. Sorry that I was short with you there. I’m glad that you’re here, you add a view that I need to see. I need to get booted out of my thoughts once in a while.

@Doramin: #104

It has already been floated that there should be cameras in every classroom that parents and anyone else can access online.

There are already cameras in ALMOST every room. They are called smartphones, and they have recorded teachers brainwashing kids, but the teacher is never fired, just moved some place else.

There should be cameras in the classrooms, but they shouldn’t be accessible from the outside. Too many people know how to hack into them and could use them the wrong way. The recordings should be able to be watched by parents and other proper authorities.

The liberal schools aren’t going to allow cameras and let parents see and hear their kid or kids being brainwashed into what the liberal schools want them taught. I’ve seen some of the videos the students recorded, and the administrators don’t want you to see them.

Another ARMED hero in Kenya:

A Somali Muslim has been hailed a hero after rescuing a mother and her three daughters from the Nairobi shopping mall as gunmen threw grenades and sprayed bullets yards away.

Katherine Walton feared she and her children would not get out alive after becoming trapped under a table outside a supermarket in the Westgate complex.

But they were saved by Abdul Haji, the son of a former Kenyan security minister, who bravely ushered them to safety as he fired back at the terrorists with a handgun.

His identity has now been revealed after his story was immortalised in an iconic photograph which shows him reaching out to Mrs Walton’s four-year-old daughter Portia as she runs away with fear etched on her face.

Read much more with lots of photos: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2434491/Kenya-mall-attack-American-mother-reveals-selfless-Muslim-civilian-helped-usher-daughters-safety.html#ixzz2g6r3sSc7

@Doramin: #104
Agreed. But can you imagine their outrage at being recorded in a public building by students? Vs their lack of outrage at students being watched over webcams in their private bedrooms?
It would be time to bring out the liberals’ own trope: “But if you’re not doing anything wrong, why would you care?”
Minus the usual high, whiney nasal tone, of course. Gotta stay classy.

@Nan G: #108
Saved by a good man with a gun.
A damned good man!
Who sacrificed his own safety, and that of his family, to protect the helpless.
The monsters are now threatening them all. (Same link as you provided.)

By the way, he was not a law enforcement officer, he is a real estate agent legally carrying his own firearm, just like any CCW holder here in the USA. Looks like a 1911.

@Richard Wheeler:

A 2nd amendment advocate as am I.

Come on. You don’t really expect us to believe this after you stated that only cops should have guns do you? After you stated that you would call the police upon seeing someone with a rifle? Really? Now you want to claim that you are a “2nd Amendment advocate”?! Unless, I just missed the sarcasm as you intended…

No, sir. An “advocate” fights FOR gun rights, not against them.

Oct 2 is International Non Violence Day commemorating his death.

I’m going to celebrate by openly carrying my rifle around town to ensure that no one commits any violence in my presence.

@Smorgasbord: Thank you for the invite. Idaho is definitely at the top of the list for relocation states.

There is a falconry movement in Idaho that I’d love to become involved with, during retirement. It is a great hobby for those who like to extend the hunting season. There is a big center just east of Boise.

I already work around Boise and love the area.

@CJ: You got me confused. I never said “cops are the only ones who should have guns.”–or “would call police on seeing someone with a rifle.” Slow down.
Skooks You say BHO has “sympathy for the jihadists movement.” How so?

@Nan G: I hope the photo of the little girl running to escape the mayhem of jihadists will become an icon for the world. An icon that says these monsters, despite our president’s sympathy for their movement, need to be hunted and down like mad dogs and destroyed by what ever means necessary.

Nan G
YES AS SKOOK said the right words,
their cruelty has no fronteers,
and it’s another of a very important reality to re-enforce the will to close the BORDERS HERE
IN THIS USA, AND PROMPTLY

@Skookum:
I think it is a terrific photo, too.

I only just learned how those terrorists treated their victims.
I hope no photos ever emerge of their poor victims.
It is bad enough just to know some were castrated, others raped, some had fingers cut off, eyes gouged out, ears and noses slashed off BEFORE being murdered.

@Nan G: It’s time for zero tolerance and politicians who believe otherwise are probably in league or sympathize with these homicidal maniacs who call themselves jihadists.

TOP WHITE HOUSE ADVISERS COMPARE THE GOPS AS TERRORIST,
that’s their regular talking point which is ANTI AMERICANS IN POWER TO TALK TO PUBLIC
AND DEMONIZING THE GOPS, AND REPUBLICAN,
they also did it for TEA PARTY, AND THE GOOD CITIZENS OF THIS AMERICA,
THEY THEMSELVES ARE THE ENEMIES Of AMERICA, AND ARE PISSED BECAUSE
THEIR FAKE OUTRAGEOUS OBAMACARE IS QUESTIONED BY THE GOP AND SO MANY
intelligent people in all walk of life, who have figure their intent to assimilate THE CITIZENS
with their agenda to have them sink into their SOCIALIST COMMUNIST MARXIST AGENDA .
we know it’s THE PEOPLE HOLDING THE POWER to demolish those arrogant who think they can do anything to destroy AMERICA,
SHE WILL NOT FALL, GOD BLESS HER BEAUTIFULL AND KIND AND GENEROUS, AMERICA
AND GOD PROTECT HER BRAVEST OF ALL, SO MUCH NEEDED NOW IN AMERICA, MORE THAN ANYWHERE ELSE, TO CORRECT THE WRONGS DONE BY THE MAJORITY, WHO IS GAINED BY FRAUDULENT ACTIVITIES.

Three cheers for the man who faced multiple AKs with a 45. Outstanding!

OBAMA if you don’t want to negociate
get off the pot,, no one want to eat your stew,

@Richard Wheeler: My apologies. I attributed comments Greg made to you. My bad there. Please accept my apology. The rest of the comment still stands.

@Skookum: #112
You can have the flat land. I like tall, mountainous territory. The kind where our search and rescue team doesn’t go out at night because we could walk off the edge of a cliff. I wouldn’t prefer to be on the side of a mountain, but a short distance from the bottom. We have a desert here, but we also have the nation’s deepest canyon. You name the critter, and you can either hunt it or fish for it.

Next time you are going to be in the Boise area, let me know and I will try to buy you a meal. I don’t live too far away.

Smorgasbord
that’s where the pilot had a hearth attack on the plane working automaticly,

I like the high mountain green valleys and meadows, myself. The feed for livestock, down on the Snake, requires irrigation, a system that often pits neighbor against neighbor, good fences and a little rainfall makes for good neighbors.

I will be working up there in October, I can’t wait to see the green mountains again.

@Skookum: #124
Certain parts of the state have water restrictions now, because of lack of water. No watering lawns from the irrigation system for now. We don’t have to worry about that where I live.

Smorgasbord
you don’t have restriction at your space,
but I think that because the WATER is in constant movement and for the sake of those being restrickted, your side should make a self willing restriction, and for those especialy those who waste the water as if there will always be some, and as if they are sure there will never be restriction for them,
it’s a good mindset to adopt before a situation arise to force them to cut the water even more,
bye

@ilovebeeswarzone: #126
Part of Idaho is desert. I have been in the desert states of the USA many times. I have always had a problem with people CHOOSING to live in a desert, but want to have a grass yard like other parts of the country do. Southern California is desert, but the residents want to keep watering their lawns, and have their fountains.

I remember a golf course that was built, and they put in a fountain that shot a stream of water into the air. I couldn’t help but wonder how much of that water is evaporating, and not being used. I know a lot of the communities use the waist water for their watering, and their fountains, but others don’t.

I have a simple philosophy. You adapt to the area you choose to live in. You don’t adapt the area to fit what you want it to be. I live in an area where there are bears and wolfs. They were her first. I don’t want them removed for my protection. When I go out on my ATV, I take a gun with me. The wild animals usually stay away from humans, but if come between a mother and her cubs, even if I can’t see them, mommy might see me as a threat, and try to eliminate the threat.

Smorgasbord
I do like to live with a big wood in the back, there is moose and deers who do come close.
but not often, I think we human need that piece of the nature around us,
I lived in big city at times and always did miss a part of land where nature is untouch,
my family had big land and as a child I would spend some summer in there, and was happy,
but when you live in a big city after having tasted nature surrounding you, it is missing,
people are not aware how choking it is to live in crowded of human big city,
some become basurk and don’t realize why,
but it’s the human jungle surrounding them that does make them sick if they don’t have an escape to nature’s land,
and the more human coming the more a city loose their patch of land which become unnatural to live and you never get use to have nothing else but human in high building where the sun is only for a short time in your window,
they are letting in all kind of people here, it’s their sick need to fill any patch of land with human,
where sometimes too often, one goes on a rampage of mass killing to eliminate in his mind the crowd
which is replenish with more human who never cease to come in by the open borders,
bye

Since this thread could easily include the circumstances around the Navy Shipyard shooting I thought today’s breaking news might enlighten:
Shortcuts Seen by Firm Doing Security Checks
New York Times

The calls and e-mails from top executives came toward the end of each month, former managers at USIS recalled. The company needed to swiftly complete investigating security clearances for the government in order to reach its monthly revenue goal, the managers said they were told. Finally, there was an order: “Flush” everything you’ve got.

The directive to give quick final approval of background investigations without reviewing them for quality — known as flushing — was sent, the managers said, to a branch office of USIS, a company that has performed 700,000 yearly security checks for the government.

USIS employees detailed how the company had an incentive to rush work because it is paid only after a file is marked “FF,” for fieldwork finished, and sent to the government. In the waning days of a month, investigations were closed to meet financial quotas, without a required review by the quality control department.

Gee.
And WE can’t openly carry.
Obama wanted to grow the government worker rolls so fast he couldn’t wait for proper background checks.

Nan G
THAT’S WHY as many agencies as they open,
it’s still show their lack of work demanding deeper search,
because the GOVERNMENT IS NOT INTERESTED IN GOING TO THE BOTTOM OF PROBLEMS,
it must be the same way with all they touch, is mediocre work,
as we suspected how ignorant these DEMOCRATS ARE,
AND UNDESERVING OF THE BIG EARNINGS ALONG WITH BIG BONUS AND LAVISH EXPANSIVE VACATIONS,THEY ARE BEING GIVEN
BY THE PEOPLE,

@ilovebeeswarzone: #128

Louise McMasters Bujold said it best when she said “I’ve come to believe that the only difference between Heaven and Hell is the company you keep there.”
Cities are hell.

It seems so unnatural to live in a crowd, with people stacked above and below you, and crowded all around. No wonder people snap.
Too many people with empty souls that they must fill up with 24-7 noise. Too many neighbors with no consideration, who will not give anything up for the sake of others, who’s reaction to any request to tone it down is “If you don’t like it, move.”
Too much noise, too many people with no self control, too many children with no parental control…

I’m beginning to believe that the Police are becoming militarized because it better suits their new role not as law enforcement, but as prison guards.

@ilovebeeswarzone: #128
Each person is different, and likes different things. Some love the cities, some don’t. Where ever a person likes to live, that is the best place for them.

@Nan G: #129

Obama wanted to grow the government worker rolls so fast he couldn’t wait for proper background checks.

obama has averaged 101 hires per day since he took office, even though we are broke, and keep going deeper into debt. Does anybody still thing he is trying to help the country?

Since His First Day in Office Barack Obama Has Hired 101 New Federal Employees on Average Each Day

What amazes me is that there are too many things that the government has private contractors do that the government should do. Is it possible these companies made large enough donations to enough politicians that the politicians passed a law for this?

Petercat
yes, she said it so well, and she said a key word, UNATURAL, RIGHT ON THE DOT,
I believe so too,
the lack of land around a family is missing the chance to interact with NATURE,
which is to my mind a priority for one’s need to grow up to become balance enough
to say no to those who want to hurt you and bring one down in hell where they love to be,
BYE

For starters: How about having military installations guarded by Military Police? Not lowest-bidder rent-a-cops?

Pete

Cities have been around for a very, very long time. There must be something they’re good for.

We can’t all live on God’s Little Green Acre. Any more than we can go back to being hunter-gatherers.

Prease to get off honorable soapbox.

DORAMIN
CITY ARE GOOD FOR SOMETHING ,
as long as the one who get wacky of being surrounded by human of all kind, AND CANNOT TAKE IT ANYMORE,
as long yes as they don’t take their frustration on you, or their neighbors or the mailman,
or the POLICE OFFICER OF THAT CITY, OR THE SCHOOL CHILDREN, or the noise of anyone,
OR WAIT, maybe city are especialy for letting of the brain pressure ON other,
at the least in the COUNTRY you can let out the pressure
BY yelling as loud and as long until you feel better,
the only one you could see are the wolves
coming to join the song,
can you see a neighborhood get that frustration all together and decide to yell outside your street? in the night, naked?
and you left your gun in the car,
bye

@Doramin: #135
There’s a shortage of stateside military police right now, they’re needed overseas. Why not just allow all military personnel who so desire to carry?
MPs couldn’t be everywhere anyway, and are easily spotted. It’s not so easy to spot the concealed carriers. Which might be why mass killers prefer gun-free zones.

@Doramin: #135
Did you forget that you are suggesting this to our government officials? That makes too much sense.

@Doramin: #136
If you’re talking to me (there’s a Pete on this forum) I’m not on a soapbox. Just stating my opinion, just like, oh, i don’t know, everyone else on this forum!
I, personally, think that cities are hell. Your opinion may vary.

BTW, I hate being called “Pete”. It sounds like a bird fart.

@Smorgasbord:

I’m torn. I love lush rolling hills, woods and streams with nearby farmland. But I also like the eastern seaboard.

That too. You’ll get no argument out of me.

Wonder if there’s any truth to the meme that GHWB signed off on the no-guns-on-base rule rather than Charming Billy.

@Ditto: #141

But I also like the eastern seaboard.

You wouldn’t if you were a truck driver, and had to deliver during rush hour traffic. Most truck drivers would be glad to see both coasts drop off into the oceans.

i just love JUDGE JEANINE PIRO,
SHE IS RIGHT ON, ABOUT the insults given to TED CRUZ,
YOU GOT TO SEE IT AT FOXNEWS NOW, AND OBAMA CARE

@Smorgasbord:

I don’t mean the big coastal metropolises, but the much smaller townships and villages.

@Ditto: #145
It’s kind of hard to make just the metropolises of the coasts drop into the oceans, so I guess we will have to leave them the way they are. Another major difference between rural and city living is that I have had many $5-6 meals in small town cafes that included the drink and desert, but would cost at lest $10 back then, and that didn’t include the drink or desert. I can also survive OK where I live on just my Social Security check.

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