Remember that 3 am phone call? Edward Snowden is calling and Obama can’t even find the phone.
The potential damage that Edward Snowden could visit upon the United States with disclosure of classified information is large. The U.S. officials who are being questioned about just how much information Snowden took with him are starting to sound like Obama- they don’t know anything:
In a weekend television appearance, the chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Dianne Feinstein, said she had been informed by U.S. officials that Snowden possessed around 200 secret documents.
But one non-government source familiar with Snowden’s materials said that Feinstein grossly understated the size of Snowden’s document haul and that he left for Hong Kong with thousands of documents copied from the NSA files.
Two U.S. national security sources that were among the people Reuters spoke to confirmed that investigators believe Snowden possesses a substantial amount of secret material, though they declined to discuss numbers.
So far, the Guardian and the Washington Post have not published all the details of the documents that Snowden gave them.
Apparently, release could be very damaging:
Technical Roadmap of the U.S. Surveillance Network
Before he fled Hawaii for Hong Kong in late May, Snowden allegedly downloaded significant amounts of information about some of the country’s most sensitive secrets — specifically how the U.S. government does surveillance abroad. One source told ABC News that as an information specialist with security clearance “he understood the framework of how the whole U.S. surveillance network works.”
In short, Snowden’s stolen material would help America’s adversaries understand how we use electronics to spy.
Another official said Snowden had access to a particularly important computer server in the government’s system “which contained ridiculous amounts of information” totaling hundreds of pages worth of secrets. He is suspected of storing stolen material on computers and making copies of documents. At risk is the effectiveness of billions of dollars worth of supercomputer and clandestine spying resources.
What Snowden May Know About Human Ops
Beyond technical systems, U.S. officials are deeply concerned that Snowden used his sensitive position to read about U.S. human assets, for example spies and informants overseas as well as safe houses and key spying centers.
They worry this recent quote from Snowden was not an exaggeration: ” I had access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all over the world. The locations of every station, we have what their missions are, and so forth.”
So it’s not just about what he took, but what he knows, officials emphasize. Officials describe Snowden as a walking treasure trove, a dream for foreign intelligence services. One intelligence official called Snowden and his cache an “entire U.S. government problem.”
Snowden has lead US authorities and journalists by the nose:
NSA Leaker Edward Snowden was supposed to be on Aeroflot Flight 180 from Moscow to Havana. He wasn’t. But “dozens” of journalists are. It just took off. And there’s no booze service on board. Welcome to the Cuban Whistleblower Crisis.
Since Snowden’s purported arrival in Moscow yesterday, scores of journalists have been staking out Sheremetyevo Airport, hoping to catch the 29 30-year-old (happy birthday Ed!) ex-contractor as he left Russia, possibly with an eventual destination in Ecuador, where he’s reportedly seeking asylum. When Russian media reported that he’d booked a ticket on Aeroflot Flight 180 to Havana, Cuba, a number of them did the journalistic thing and booked tickets as well.
Only: Snowden never showed.
Snowden may not even have been in Russia
As for Snowden himself, there’s little evidence he was even in Russia in the first place (a passenger on the Hong Kong to Moscow flight he was said to have taken told the AP he saw Snowden), and if he was, a source “familiar with Snowden’s situation” tells Interfax that he likely left the country already.
Obama has sent the feckless John Kerry out to bluster Russia about Snowden
Secretary of State John Kerry said Monday that the U.S. is doing everything it can do to apprehend him, describing the effort to persuade Russia that it is important to uphold the rule of law and to respect the relationship between the two nations.
“I hope our friends in Russia will do what is necessary,” Kerry said in an interview with CBS News.
But it’s apparent that Obama is helpless:
US threats that China and Russia face “consequences” if leaker Edward Snowden evades capture may prove just hot air, experts say, with Washington powerless in a game of cat-and-mouse.
Left red-faced after Snowden brazenly waltzed out of Hong Kong bound for Moscow at the weekend even after his passport was apparently canceled, US officials have angrily called on Russia to hand him over for trial.
President Barack Obama said Washington was using every legal channel to apprehend the former technician and the self-confessed source of explosive leaks detailing the extent of covert US phone and Internet surveillance.
Countries are even thumbing their noses at Obama and the US:
The carefully planned journey of Edward Snowden from Hong Kong to Russia – then to Cuba possibly, before ending up in Ecuador to seek political asylum? – underscores just how many countries, big and small, are happy to have an occasion to stick it in the eye of the United States.
The US and the Obama administration in particular are quick to emphasize the importance they give to the human rights of the citizens of the countries they are dealing with. Needless to say, however, those countries don’t always take well to American lesson-giving.
With the case of Mr. Snowden – a former National Security Agency contractor who leaked details of top-secret American and British surveillance programs and who is now sought by the US on espionage charges – those countries have a chance to turn the tables on the US.
So much for that hope and change.
Obama is getting his clock cleaned:
Add to that Putin’s support for Iran’s nuclear ambitions and his crackdown at home. (The Washington Post writes that in “an attempt to suppress swelling protests against his rigged reelection and the massively corrupt autocracy he presides over, Mr. Putin has launched what both Russian and Western human rights groups describe as the most intense and pervasive campaign of political repression since the downfall of the Soviet Union.”). Taken all together, you can see that the Obama “reset”–which at the dawn of the Obama administration was described as a “win-win” strategy for both nations–has been a rout for the Russians.
With the Snowden situation, Vladimir Putin seems intent not only defying America but embarrassing her. It turns out that an irresolute amateur like Barack Obama was the best thing that the brutal but determined Putin could have hoped for.
He’s cleaning Obama’s clock.
So is Edward Snowden.
Barack Obama probably knows the location of every member of the Tea Party in the United States and has at his command the tax records of Mitt Romney and the Koch brothers but the real risks to this country leave him stymied. Obama suffers the foul blowback of his unending arrogance and lousy hypocrisy about spying on Americans and the rights of whistleblowers.
Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.
Punish the Whistleblowers
The Obama administration has already charged more people — six — under the Espionage Act for alleged mishandling of classified information than all past presidencies combined. (Prior to Obama, there were only three such cases in American history.)
Read that again. Obama is abusing the 1917 Espionage Act.
Obama has only himself to blame for this mess and Snowden said as much:
Edward Snowden says he decided to release classified information about national security surveillance after President Obama failed to live up to his 2008 campaign promises.
“Obama’s campaign promises and election gave me faith that he would lead us toward fixing the problems he outlined in his quest for votes,” Snowden said in a Monday question-and-answer session with readers of The Guardian. “Many Americans felt similarly.”
“Unfortunately,” he continued, “shortly after assuming power, [Obama] closed the door on investigating systemic violations of law, deepened and expanded several abusive programs, and refused to spend the political capital to end the kind of human rights violations like we see in Guantanamo, where men still sit without charge.”
It seems that only two secrets remain undiscoverable- the whereabouts of Edward Snowden and Barack Obama’s school records.
Obama probably has an extra drone around too.
Politico reported that obama welcomed the Snowden plot twist. We’ll see about that.
I side with Word, Greg and Dick Cheney (strange bedfellows) on this. This clown is hanging with the KGB at Moscow International.
” an Obama supporter.” Laughable
And exactly how do you know with whom Snowden is “hanging out”?
I can’t get anyone to answer how this differs from someone leaking the details of the eavesdropping in 2005 and publishing it in the NY Times.
Apparently, it wasn’t all that easy, drj. As more has come out about Snowden’s background and life, WaPo compiled a profile of Snowden from youth to his flight to Hong Kong. Leaving aside the impressions I get of him personally – you can form your own by reading – the reality is that Snowden only worked for the NSA and CIA predominately thru the Bush admin.
The total time as a direct employee of the feds was five years… two at NSA (2005-2006) as a security guard did not give him work access to any national security projects. That was followed by three years with the CIA as a network security cyber janitor (2006-2009).
Snowden was already disgruntled during that time, and had he wanted to be a genuine whistleblower, that was the point to do it… while as a government employee. Protections are better for fed employee whistleblowers than private contractors. Problem is, he didn’t have any access to “proof” for his discontent in his positions with the NSA or CIA.
Following the CIA gig, he went to work for Dell (2009 to the Booz Allen employment late 2012/early 2013)… again as a network security cyber janitor. Even during that gig, he still did not have access to the “proof” he needed.
Why do I say this? Because Snowden, himself, states that the *only* reason he took the job at Booz Allen was to gather his “proof”, which apparently he could not do in his prior positions. I suspected that as soon as I heard his short 3-4 week (after which he took off “medical” time) employment stint at Booz Allen… that it was nothing more than a gate entry for theft. Even at that, both the feds and Booz Allen know what he accessed, and what he tried to access via hacking because he did not have clearance. They know what he has taken.
Therefore, it was under a private contractor, and not the federal agencies, that Snowden stole national security databases on smuggled in thumbdrives and computers. Ergo, it wasn’t “pried” from the Obama admin federal employment because he had to take the Booz Allen gig to get access, or hack without watchful eyes, what he wanted.
Legitimate questions are raised about the need for better background checks for private contractor hire. But there are always going to be some turncoats in the mix. Even tho Snowden’s personal profile could raise some eyebrows, I’m not sure that even a closer scrutiny of his private life would have been enough to prohibit his hire at Booz Allen…. the place where he abused his employment in order to steal national security secrets.
First of all, Lichtblau and Risen spent time interfacing with the Bush admin before the NYTs ran the story of Bush’s warrantless wiretapping…. a policy that the conservative world backed loudly during that era. Nor did Lichtblau and Risen steal specific classified data, publicly release specifics, store stolen data on thumb drives for transport, and head to enemy nations to seek sanctuary. They stood right here to fight what they felt was a battle for civil rights on US soil.
Snowden is, IMHO, nothing more than an insecure cyber geek who spent his life in a gamer/virtual world of excitement and intrigue… and is now acting it out in real life. He should be found, extradited, and tried. If he genuinely wanted reform, he would have contacted his hero, Ron Paul. He would have found a very friendly ear. Apparently he preferred China, Russia etal
Whistleblowers have always faced central government hostilities throughout history. I expect that under any future admin, they still won’t have an easy path. Why would anyone assume that any federal government would welcome their secrets being exposed thru the whistleblower path? Would you want to make it easy for someone to stand over your shoulder during a poker game, and announce your hand?
And one more time, Snowden is not a whistleblower. He’s a thief, a premeditated traitor, and the company he chooses to keep is that evidence.
But I find it interesting that anyone blames Obama for Snowden’s theft because Obama continued Bush’s surveillance tactics with increased FISC interaction. That blame game is no different than those who attempt to justify Islamist terrorism for US presence in the Middle East, or foreign policy… it’s the fault of “the policy” and those who make policies, and not the perp.
It’s strange how such personal hatred and animosity clouds all reason and sanity. Snowden’s traitorous choices while engaging in his reality adventure game places the US citizens, the field intel agents,safehouses and the nation’s national security advantage as the victims. What he has done, in my personal view, is unforgivable.
I agree with Wordsmith and Greg on this. Snowden’s involvement, and his mental rebellion against US surveillance, is not an “Obama” thing. It spans two admins, both of whom share methods and ever advancing projects/software for surveillance. Considering his age and education, he doesn’t have first hand cognizance of anything more than those two admins.
And while working for either administration (mostly Bush’s) he did not have access to the “proof” he needed to be a whistleblower.
It’s unlikely that Snowden would ever have been appeased with any NSA/CIA surveillance changes by the nature of his political bent. He was, and still is, a walking cyber bomb. The ironic thing is that, in a not so bright move, IMHO, he’s empowered several people with entire copies of all in his possession, who threaten a blanket and complete release if something “happens” to him.
Dumb shit is assuming that the US would assassinate him, and would be the only nation who would want to assassinate him. He needs to get to know his “friends” better, good little “libertarian” that he is. /sarc By passing over his entire goody bag to civilians (and likely the Chinese and Russian governments as the price to be paid for passage), he’s not only empowered civilians with government blackmail potential, but enemy nations would love to have him assassinated just to see all that info hit the cyber airwaves.
Doesn’t that suggest he hasn’t handed it over to anyone else? He’d have no leverage, safety or value if he’s given it to the Russians.
Not at all, drj. In fact, that China or Russia give him free passage thru the countries suggest they had a price for that.
Playing the “intrigue” game, the Russians and Chinese, officially, wouldn’t want the US to know how much they knew. On the flip side – and going by the assumption the US believes they know all – if they assassinated Snowden since he is of no further use, it’s to their advantage to frame the US as the assassins, piling on the negative portrayal.
That suggests a far more reasonable administration but in the end they handed the information over the Russians too.
And the same for Operation Cannonball- which was even more harmful.
drj, (INRE Lichtblau and Risen) the Russians only know what was reported in the NYT’s news… which is a far cry from having thumb drives of details, classified documents, and specifics. No comparison.
I can identify that this admin isn’t, IMHO, as “reasonable” as Bush’s. But then from Snowden’s perspective, he’d be more likely to identify with Obama than Bush. Fact is, the guy never had any intentions of running the more honorable and traditional whistleblower route. His employment path and plans suggest this is all premeditated, and that he never was going to approach US elected officials with the information.
You are not in a position to suggest that Operation Cannonball was “more harmful” because the feds know what Snowden has in his possession… and that the likelihood is that he has handed over more classified details than has been reported in the papers. Just because you, as a news reading person doesn’t know, doesn’t mean significant damage has already been done by what he has given foreign governments on the sly… even if not reported in some BS rag for the masses.
I have applied common sense to the situation. “What this administration has been doing to American citizens” is actually nothing much, so far as any typical individual American citizen is concerned. They’ve kept a record of what telephone numbers have been called from my telephone number at what times, as part of an enormous, anonymous data set. Why should I care? That data only becomes non anonymous if a good reason emerges, and a court review is required to justify that reason.
Given the threats that the government is trying to guard against, I don’t find any of this unreasonable. I don’t particularly want the government to totally eliminate any capability of backtracking through a history of suspicious communications, just to get rid of an anonymous record of telephone numbers that I’ve dialed. Would you want that?
My privacy is far more at risk because of data mining by corporate America. They’re collecting, compiling, profiling, and selling what they discover to other corporate entities that want to sell me things. There’s also an extensive criminal network out there constantly trying to access my most private information, with every intention of committing theft or fraud. There are foreign entities that have mounted enormous, state-sponsored hacking campaigns against the U.S. government and private interests. It’s astonishingly pervasive. When I look at my own firewall security log, I see an unbroken pattern of unauthorized attempts to access my home computer system every few minutes. I’ve occasionally looked up the changing source IDs, just out of curiosity. They’re generally anonymous servers in China, Russia, or other former Soviet block nations. I can only assume nefarious intentions.
So no, I don’t consider the U.S. government or the Obama administration to be my worst enemies, or the greatest threat to my freedom or privacy.
Or maybe they’re trying to “overcharge” the situation and tweak Obama’s nose.
I was referring to the NSA eavesdropping revelation.
Guys, wake up. The traitor is feinstein. 16 different IC agencies and a private spying company, welcome to stupidity.
Consequences…like the 9/11 report, loaded with inaccuracies but bush got re-elected and chaney staved off impeachment.
Ever wonder where all that money is?
@Richard Wheeler, #53:
Yep. As Word’s post suggested, Dick Cheney is my new BFF.
What can I say? When you’re right, you’re right.
Do you believe that Edward Snowden should be prosecuted to the full extent of federal law for what you call his “act of treachery, betrayal of trust” for releasing U.S. classified material?
Answer the question.
Do you apply that standard to anyone who leaks classified information? I mean, I want to know how committed you are to that standard or if you just apply it to some.
Greg’s a lefty…he’s certainly not going to apply that standard to the Obama administration who have leaked plenty!
Please don’t segue into another rant about Joe Biden, or whatever other patently false comparison you had in mind. We’ve already been there and done that.
Snowden has broken laws. Specific complaints have been filed. He’s been accused of theft of government property, unauthorized communication of national defense information, and willful communication of classified communications intelligence to an unauthorized person. It’s no matter of misspeaking. He seems to have stolen very specific and highly classified material pertaining to at least one ongoing national security operation. It’s possible that he’s done very serious harm. There could be serious consequences for innocent people.
Well, you can try to dodge the issue, but the fact remains that when Joe Biden stated that it was SEAL Team 6 that took bin Laden out, that information was still classified information that had not been approved to be released to the general public. So if you want to prosecute someone for leaking classified information, which you said you would with Snowden, you have to have to same standard for Slow Joe, or you or nothing but blatant hypocrite.
And what about the leakers that Dianne Feinstein claimed were in the Administration, itself? Why are you not harping for them to be prosecuted? Do you have one standard for Snowden, and another for those who work for Obama?
Seems you do.
I seem to recall a few people around here praising Matt Bissonnette as another public spirited Eagle Scout after he divulged detailed information concerning Operation Neptune Spear in No Easy Day without any prior DoD authorization or review, pocketing profits from over 1 million book sales during its first week alone. He drew on seven former brothers-in-arms who were still on active duty status for information for the book and for a related video game deal, effectively destroying their military careers in the process. Seven formal letters of reprimand resulted, which means those guys are pretty much ruined now. A number of his other former Seal associates won’t even talk to him. They apparently despise the guy for breaking a trust. The DoD’s official position is that he breached his confidentiality agreement—obviously—and released classified information. The main reason that they didn’t go after him is that they would have had to do it in civil court, and would wind up confirming specifically what classified information they were most worried about in the process.
So how do you square totally overlooking such blatant cases of serious, specific, irresponsible disclosure, obviously done with a profit motive, while demonizing Joe Biden for a vague comment praising Seal Team Six for meritorious and heroic performance? I’m really curious.
Then you’re referring to the the Thin Thread, and Binney/Wiebe (and later Thomas Drake) whistleblowing back in 2002, and later reported by the NYTs in 2005. No comparison to Snowjob, drj.
Binney and Wiebe first attempted to work with NSA to get them to use a less intrusive version of Thin Thread. Didn’t work out and they resigned in 2001. They went private and tried to market it, but were thwarted in that attempt by the feds. They finally filed a complaint with the DoD IG in Sept 2002 and an investigation followed that took a couple of years, and substantiated their claims. In it’s aftermath, Binney and Wiebe continued to work with the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.
When Risen and Lichtblau published their story in the NYTs Dec of 2005,the FBI launched an all out investigation to find the source, automatically targeting the obvious players… the whistleblowers themselves. They were exonerated, and granted immunity in 2010 by the DOJ. The 2004 IG report was obtained via FOIA in 2011. You can read more details at the Government Accountability Project’s website.
As I mentioned above, both Risen and Lichtblau were in negotiations with the Bush WH prior to publishing. But it’s always dicey when the media-national security-1st Amendment clash.
The ensuing IG report was obtained in 2011 via FOIA request by the GAP.
None of this bears an iota of resemblance to Snowjob and his less than stellar and privy position within the intel world. He is a creation of his own reality game, inflating his own import. He didn’t have the access he needed as an NSA or CIA employee… or even when with Dell… which is why he took the Booz Allen job, as I linked above.
The 2001-2002 whistleblowers went thru every conceivable channel to remedy this. Snowden took off for enemy territory, armed with thumb drives and classified documents as visiting treats.
And if you read the NYTs article, there is nothing in there as specific as Snowjob’s disclosures and possession (plus publication) of classified documents… which he hand delivered to leftist media while sheltering within borders of America’s enemies.
INRE gaffe-prone Joe, while he is a blabber mouthed buffoon, he did not ID Seal Team Six as accused. As Pat Dollard reported back in Aug 2011, Joe gave a speech at the Ritz Carleton days later, and provided Biden’s exact quote in his speech.
What he did was identify Adm. Stavridis – who was at the top of the command food chain, COMEUCOM and SACEUR. Biden mentioned SEALs, but there are nine active teams.
Yes, he was a blithering and over excitable idiot, but as Peter Bergen pointed out, a lot of the ability to keep the mission under wraps was blown up along with the scrapped and crashed stealth chopper…. a vehicle that was not available to your average military units.
As Bergen also notes, the SEALs have hardly been low profile, since active members took acting roles in Act of Valor, and followed up the UBL raid with a 22 minute documentary. And while Biden was crazy enough to mention the SEALs (even if not the specific unit), it’s not like there’s a plethora of Special Ops teams out there using the classified stealth choppers and operating in that vicinity… which has been common knowledge for those that follow such subjects for years. As Bergen says, the two premiere counterterrorism teams are SEALs Six and the Delta Force. Not much of a secret since the SEALs Six team’s had their own Wiki page since 2004, and the Army’s Delta Force’s Wiki page has been up since 2003. Therefore the history of these elite forces, not to mention the top level of their specialized operations/missions, was a secret only to those that are unfamiliar with Wikipedia.
Biden dumb? Of course. On the level and scale of Snowjob? Only in anyone’s wildest conspiratorial fantasies.
Still no, Mata
drj, if you have some point, you might want to make it more clear. Have no clue to what you refer, or why.
I suggested to you that you are in no position to decide that Operation Cannonball (the UBL mission) “leak” caused more harm than Snowjob since you do not know what is in his possession.
To my understanding, you clarified you were speaking of the NSA eavesdropping. Of which there were two… the 2001-02 whistleblowing by Binney INRE Thin Thread, and Snowjob.
@MataHarley: What I said was the IMO the Operation Cannonball leak was probably more harmful than the FISA leak.
When these happened to Bush, liberals loved them. The net result was that publishing this data in the NY Times is placing it in the hands of the enemy.
That’s what I thought you said, and thank you for the further clarification. We’ll agree to disagree, and for the reasons of the footprint left at the scene – a crash of the stealth helicopter available only at the top level special ops level. For those aware of the special ops world, the teams that capable of doing such a mission are very narrow indeed.
As far as I can see, there is a large number of Democrats that are just as upset about Snowjob’s illegal dissemination of classified data and the potential of NSA over reach. However, as I’ve pointed out multiple times, the Risen/Lichtblau NYTs article does not rise to the level of information that Snowjob has provided to both press, and likely enemy nations. The publishing of a FISC order classified document should be the obvious example. As I said, you don’t know what Snowjob has in his possession, but the intel community does… and they aren’t happy about it. Nor should they be.
@Greg: egad, @Greg:
OMG, you can’t possibly be that stupid, is it even humanly possible to be that stupid?
@another vet: #41, I pretty well agree with you on your assessment. Revealing what our government is doing to the American people is one thing. Revealing secrets to foreign governments is something else.
@Greg: #42, she only clarified what you tried to say.
I think as of this time, it is only potential. I’ve seen no evidence that he has actually turned over any secrets to anyone. To this point, revealing the depth of intrusion into American lives is a service to the Nation, any revealing of actual secrets to foreign nations, which we do not know has happened, would be a game breaker.
The FISC order for Verizon is classified documentation that was turned over to the Guardian (and definitely not the only material turned over per Snowden’s and Greenwald’s own words), and published. The same for the four slides published from the NSA (or CIA?) presentation. That alone belies your statement.
@MataHarley: I didn’t make myself clear, yes, but what he revealed was the ‘secret’ of what the government was doing to US citizens, the reference to not revealing secrets was to, State secrets to another country. I’ve not seen any evidence of that.
According to Legal Insurrection and the South China Morning Post, Snowjob shared classified IP addresses for Chinese and Hong Kong computers that were hacked by NSA.
If you, personally, have not seen the publication of those classified documents that are not related to US citizens, does that mean it didn’t happen? And you are aware that Snowjob dumped a copy of his entire stash of data with multiple sources, and provided Greenwald with a password as to how they can access the encrypted data? Who those sources are remain a mystery.
I don’t know about you, but I’m not in the least bit comfortable with a leftist journalist having the ability and power to hold the US intel industry hostage. I would also consider it highly unlikely that Bejing, or Russia, would allow Snowden to go on his merry way without some quid pro quo payment in return.
@MataHarley: Rumors and innuendo, no proof of anything.
Just because Legal Insurrection and the South China Morning Postsaid it does not translate into fact.
Does that mean it did happen?
I agree, but we need a little proof before we lop off his head, don’t we?
I don’t know about you, but I’m just as uncomfortable by knowing that Obama has access to those same secrets, and what he may use them for.
I believe the most common description for such a helpful clarification would be twisting my words.
I haven’t heard a peep yet about the question raised in post #71. What I was being accused of, I believe, was inconsistency and hypocrisy.
@Greg: Greg, your problem is that you want to excuse the libs for violating the law but prosecute someone else. Pointing to the bad behavior of someone else does not excuse the bad behavior by Joe Biden.
Perhaps you should mention that that to retire05 rather than to me. Joe Biden’s comment wasn’t what was under discussion here, and I wasn’t the one who brought Joe Biden up. It wasn’t my attempt at a diversion.
@Greg: Yes it was. You’re wanting to prosecute Snowden for violating a Federal law, but are perfectly willing to overlook Joe violating that very same law.
I wonder if Greg is as vehement about wanting to prosecute all those illegal aliens in our country violating Federal Law and State laws and committing fraud, etc. I highly doubt that Mr. Greg Principle does
@Rachel: I’m sure Greg sees it as a great opportunity to pad the lib rolls.
I think maybe I’ll get off this merry-go-round before I get dizzy. Most of the other adults seem to have left already.