The Dishonest Gay Marriage Debate [Reader Post]

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Some of us have observed the homosexual movement from the very beginning.  First, all they wanted to do was practice the sexual desires which “God gave them,” so they managed to get sodomy laws abolished.  But that was not the end game.

Then they wanted to live with their heads held high, so they wanted to hold Gay Pride Parades.  If you have ever been to a gay parade, you know that, it is not just a bunch of homosexuals on floats holding up banners saying, “I’m gay and loving it!”  You will see all sorts of simulated sexual acts and men wearing clothing in such a way as to be erotically graphic.  It is much more of an “in your face” approach.  “This is what we are; deal with it.”  But that was not the end game.

Now that gay pride parades are common—at least in some areas—there was the next step.  So many male homosexuals had the love of their lives suffering in hospitals, and yet, they had no legal right to see this person, and family members were keeping them separated, and so they had to have civil unions or domestic partnership laws.  The hospital scenario was presented again and again, although this was a situation that fewer than 1% of homosexuals had ever dealt with.  Many had been to hospitals with ex-lovers dying of AIDS, but the number who had been banned from their “lifetime” partner was minuscule.  However, by presenting that rarely occurring scenario, homosexuals gained quite a number of state laws which allowed them to become legally attached with the legal rights that they needed to have.  But, that was not the end game.

And now, today, the big push is for marriage rights.  Everyone has the right to marry the person that they love, except for gays; and it is so unfair!  “It is a fundamental human right to marry the person you love!” they proclaim.

There are churches in every state—many of them headed by gay pastors—who are more than willing to perform a marriage ceremony, and pronounce them married at the end of the ceremony; and gays can tell everyone that they know, “This is my gay marriage partner” and they can demand such recognition from their friends and family.  But, you know what is so terrible?  The state will not proclaim them married!  The federal government will not proclaim them married!  Oh, dear, oh dear; this is such a violation of their civil rights!  How can they really feel married unless the state or federal government recognizes them as married?  Attending their own marriage ceremony in which they are pronounced married?  Not good enough.  Telling all  of their friends and family that they are married?  Not good enough.  Marriage only counts, for some reason, if the state or federal government certifies them as being married.

But gay marriage is not the end game.  No gay will ever tell you the end game, because if they did, you would never support gay marriage.

What gays like is more sexual partners.  Whereas, it is very unusual for a heterosexual male to have 100 or more different partners, this is not unusual in the gay community.  A study in 1978 said that 75% of gay men had over 100 sexual partners.  And since gays make up only about 3% of the population, it is hard to find new gay men to have sex with.  What is their approach?  Some partially change themselves into women; they don’t go all the way (except for the very nutty ones), but they go far enough so that they can have sex with some straight men.

However, if marriage between gays becomes the law, and the state recognizes homosexual marriages to be legally equivalent to marriages between heterosexuals, then life in America is going to change dramatically.  Gay marriage is not the end game; but once gay marriage is made legal, then gays can do a number of things they have been wanting to do.

First, because there are always been animosity among gays against Christians, the Bible will be proclaimed to be hate literature and any pastor who tries to teach portions of the Bible will be taken to court for teaching hatred.  They could care less whether or not they win; sue a few small churches, and word will get around fast enough.  Defending against such lawsuits is expensive, and few churches can afford to do it.  We know this will happen because it already has.  If marriage between homosexuals is “legalized” then, this opens up the opportunity to strike back at the church, and if a few congregations get shut down, who cares?  These churches are nothing but disseminators of hatred.

However, attacking Christians and the Bible is not the end game; that is simply sport and revenge.  The end game is, more homosexual partners.  When a man has had 100 sexual partners, that has to be a clue that, having sex, and a lot of sex, is extremely important to the homosexual.  If there is a way to expand the franchise, so to speak, that is seen as a great objective.

Sexuality is a complex thing, and homosexuals have found that, if a male is violated at a very early age, sexual gratification can be associated with homosexual behavior.  This does not work in all cases, but it works in enough cases to make presenting homosexual behavior in the schools a worthy goal for the homosexual community.  There are many schools today that teach, in sex education, that there are 3 types of sexual intercourse, and all 3 of them are equally valid.  This is taught to as young an age as they can get away with.

Even today, there are schools where books about homosexual couplings are made a part of the curriculum for grammar school children.  “And Tango Makes Three” is a popular book which has crept into the primary schools all over America.

There are many schools where homosexuals have pushed anti-bullying programs which, incidentally, present homosexual couples as normal.  These programs are pushed with great enthusiasm, despite the meager evidence of bullying occurring because a child has two daddies.  However, essentially to these anti-bullying programs is, a homosexual union is normal thing and a good thing.

Homosexuals know that young children, just reaching puberty, can be carefully navigated into trying homosexual acts.  They know that, by using lies or trickery, make up and surgery, that additional males can be tempted into homosexual acts.  This does not mean that such young men will be turned into homosexuals; it just means, they can be gotten to experiment, and that is the end-game.  More gay experimentation and more gay partners.

Men are men, whether they are predominantly interested in homosexuality or heterosexuality; and, for many men, multiple partners is a desirable thing to them.  This helps to explain why, even in “committed” gay relationships, fidelity is almost nonexistent.

This is why homosexuals have become so active in school curriculums, particularly on the grammar school level.  This is why homosexuals are so interested in having gay marriage proclaimed as legal and equal to heterosexual marriage.

This is why they want homosexual acts to be presented side-by-side heterosexual acts in sex education.

Where is the best place for gays to encourage more gay behavior, which means more partners?  On the grammar school level.

Here is exactly what they want; here is the end game:

(1) Sexual intercourse between males to be presented as exactly the same as sexual intercourse between a male and a female.  No judgment.  “You like coffee; I like tea; its all the same.”  All of the resultant physical problems from anal intercourse will not be taught at any level.  If there is any teaching about AIDS, it will be presented as a disease spread among all sexual relationships, and, all you have to do is, use a condom to prevent it.  Furthermore, this must be presented to as young a group as possible.  Preferably to children who do not even know what sexual relations are.

(2) A homosexual union must be presented as exactly equal to a heterosexual union.  I have a few dozen Time-Life books on home repair, and, in more than half of the pictures, women are doing the work; laying brick, lifting up walls, drilling holes—this is what homosexuals want to see in our schools.  If there is a book or a movie or an illustration which involves a family, they want to see a homosexual couple represented.  From the earliest age possible, they want young 5 and 6 year old boys reading about gay penguins, or 10 year olds doing a math word problem which involves a homosexual couple   Just like women construction workers are ubiquitous in my Time-Life books, they want to see homosexual couples ubiquitous in the public school curriculum.  And if a school fails to do this, then they will go to court over it.  Such a school would be teaching underlying or institutionalize bigotry, and that must be stopped.  They cannot take such a school to court today, because gay marriage is not recognized by the state and federal governments.  However, once that hurdle is made, then “institutional sexual bigotry” in the schools will be attacked via the legal system.

(3) Young males in particular must be raised in such a way as to think about their sexuality at a very young age; preferably before puberty, which will encourage experimentation.  Whether you realize this or not, more homosexual behavior will be the result.  Whether it sticks or not, is not important.  It is the experimentation that counts.  It is that discussion about sexual identify with a trusted adult that counts.

Homosexual marriage is not about love and commitment; anyone can do that, with or without the law.  Passing homosexual marriage is really about recruiting more partners, the younger, the better.

These things are being done to a very limited extent at a handful of schools across the United States.  However, once gay marriage passes (particularly, if it is done on the federal level), then these things will be pushed in a much more concerted way in our future, through the schools and the courts.

From Conservative Review #166

http://kukis.org/blog/ConservativeReview166.htm

http://kukis.org/blog/ConservativeReview166.pdf

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@gary kukis: True-ish. Not spherical, but a slightly irregular spheroid, whose shape varies with time, depending on masscons in the mantle, relativistic effects from rotation, tidal forces, plate tectonics, weathering etc. But spheroidal is close enough. Spherical is close enough for many purposes.

That’s contrary to what the Bible says. Just as our knowledge of astronomy contradicts what the Bible says about stars being afixed to the dome of heaven. Just as our knowledge of meteorology contradicts the Bible’s account of storehouses of hail and snow above this dome.

One must therefore come to the conclusion that the Bible is not literally correct in some areas. It therefore cannot and should not be considered a reliable guide on physical facts.

This was pretty much settled by 300AD, at least amongst the hellenised western church, as the Earth had been known to be round for about 700 years. The Syriac church still adhered to the Bible being literally true, the Earth being Flat etc.

Given that Genesis 1:6-18 is now known to be Babylonian Myth, what about Genesis 1:27, also in accordance with Babylonian Myth?

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Thus everyone is entirely male or entirely female, biologically, no exceptions. This verse has been used to justify the persecution of Intersexed people on several grounds. First, that they cannot exist, so anyone claiming to be Intersexed is a liar, a fraud, rebelling against God, morally corrupt etc. Second, that if they do exist, they are not human, but spawn of demons, or at least imperfect creations, and should be recycled. St Constantine the Great (well, he’s a saint in the Orthodox rite) decreed that Intersexed babies be immured in caskets and thrown into the river, to be “returned to sender” as defective goods as it were.

The current position of the Catholic church is that while such people exist and should be treated with compassion, it would be dangerous to grant them human rights. Their existence threatens God’s creation, and the natural order of male and female. This in turn threatens humanity’s very existence. Any legislation that would imprison or execute them is justifiable on the basis of religious belief, but extra-legal punishment is not. See the Pope’s speeches on the subject to the Roman Curia, the Vatican Diplomatic Corps, and the recent Vatican statement to the UN refusing to condemn legal sanction of Intersexed people (while condemning extra-legal violence against them).

So…what has this got to do with same-sex marriage and homosexuality? Actually, not a lot. This isn’t about sexual behaviour. The only connection is that in order to determine whether a relationship is homosexual or not, you have to know the sex of both involved. That’s usually trivial, but in cases where one or both have bodies neither wholly male nor wholly female, can be fraught with difficulty.

@feetxxxl: You said:

but scripture doesnt say it, because if it did you would address my points on 1cor, 1tim, lev and romans

Oh, you mean THESE verses:

1. “If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.” (Leviticus 20:13)

2. “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

3.”You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you.” (Leviticus 18:22-24)

Okay, explain how the above verses are interpreted incorrectly. Please be specific and stay away from the flowery rhetoric about love and the new covenant and all the other babble you have offered.

Please.
Be.
Specific.

How can “If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.” be interpreted in any way except to say that homosexuality is wrong?

what is it you do not get from:

heb8: 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
heb8: 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Romans 8:13-15
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. how is bonding out of mutual love, devotion, affection, respect, and trust for committed life together OUT OF THE FLESH.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[a] And by him we cry, “Abba,[b] Father.” how cqn we condemn anything without explanation of violation of christ’s love?

Romans 3:21
[ Righteousness Through Faith ] But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

1cor13: if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Galatians 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

how under the new covenenat can we in any way stand ALONE on violation of regulation according to our personnal interpretation of the law(STANDING ON LEGALITIES) and not have any explanation of violation of christ’s love (spirit) and the fruit of his spirit to SUBSTANTIATE OUR INTERRPRETATION.

EVEN MOSES WHO HAD THE LAW WENT TO GOD.
NUM15:While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die.

John 15:5
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

being in and honoring the fruit of his spirit, loving the way he loved is being in him.

gays bond out of the same spirit as heterosexuals ….mutual love, devotion,affection, trust, respect for a shared committed life together. because humans are sexual beings they bond thru sexual intimacy. how can someone have this bonding with someone theyare not sexually attracted to their entire lives from their first sexual memories. they bond thru the same erogenous zones that heterosexuals have been known to use without any recrimination.

if you have a problem with the choice of erogenous zones then it is for you to show how using those errogenous zones comes against christ’s love and the fruit of his spirit. the same for choice of genders. to stand your interpretation alone of regulation is to put yourselves under the law.

would you not say that that murders, adulters, and thieves are found wanting in various sectors of society compared to those who were not.

homosexuals have never been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals.

@feetxxxl: You said:

if you have a problem with the choice of erogenous zones then it is for you to show how using those errogenous zones comes against christ’s love and the fruit of his spirit. the same for choice of genders.

As usual, you completely avoided my question and blathered on, cherry picking scripture to try and justify your homosexuality.

That’s fine. I mean I really don’t care if you have sex with a badger, that is your choice. But our debate was on whether homosexuality was considered a sin according to Bible scripture.

Every single, straightforward question that was put to you, you have avoided. I am done with this debate, you just want to say that since you love your boyfriend or girlfriend (whichever the case may be) and God teaches love, then hey! you are Oh-Kay!!

Go for it, you can lie to yourself all you want. Your constant avoidance of the issue tells me all I need to know.

” But our debate was on whether homosexuality was considered a sin according to Bible scripture.”

maybe you have a different understanding on what a debate is. you have not addressed my points in reponse to your question but merely cased them aside with an aspersion. you have not answered my questions. you have given no explanation of how scripture says it is a sin by parsing the words of the verses you have chosen.

what is it about homosexuality that makes it a sin. is it intimacy between same genders or acts of sexual expression leading to orgasm. yet heterosexuals perform the same acts without any recrimination. there is no witchhunt to root them out. on the contrary fellow heterosexuals believe that what is done in anothers bedroom is none of their business.

even in secular law what ever law is written requires parsing of the words of the written law to determine what the law is saying and then to determine what the law can legally mandate according to the SPIRIT….SPIRIT….SPIRIT of the constitution.

in lev god also mandates ethnic slavery for life of pagans or unbelievers. yet under the new covenant slavery is an intolerable evil because of its violation of the 2nd commandment(love neighbor).

just because there is a prohibiton of same sex intercourse in lev does not mean that of itself it is a sin. the marriage of abraham violated lev. collecting firewood is not a sin . under the old covenant collecting women as sex toys was not a sin nor pedophilia in concubines. under the old genicide was mandated by god as holy. under the new, genicide violates the love of christ.

yes im interested in debate …..im just waiting for you to start.

I think the Bible is clear.
It isn’t homosexuality that is a sin;
It is the individual acts that occur when two people of the same sex have sex that are the sins.
The sinner is not condemned IF he stops sinning, no matter which sins he is committing.
When you talk about ”homosexuality,” you confuse the issue.
It is akin to saying ”the alcoholic is a sin.”
No, it is the act of drinking to the point drunkedness that is the sin, not the state of being an alcoholic or an homosexual.

If you read Galatians 5:19 -21 you see that it is NOT the person.
It is the practice of these things.
Continuing to practice those acts after learning of the sacrifice of the ”second Adam,” is indeed a trashing of that sacrifice.
A person cannot simply go on in sinning (and expect to clean up later.)
See Romans 13:13 & 14.

@Nan G:

more heterosexuals than homosexuals practice some form of anal stimulation including penetration and oral sex because of the numbers of heterosexuals over homosexuals. they do it without any recrimination. there is no witchhunt to root them out. on the contrary fellow heterosexuals believe that what is done in anothers bedroom is none of their business.

when gay marital pardners engage in sexual intimacy out of the same things as do heterosexuals…… mutual committed love and affection, why would these physical acts not be appreciated as fulfilling the marriage as is done with heterosexuals?

@Nan G:

” I think the Bible is clear.”

please explain how it is clear by parsing the words of the verses you are referring.

lev ……..not all prohibitions of lev are sins of themselves or sins under the new covenant.

are you saying that summation of all new covenant law is not christ’s love(love one another……) as directed by the 2nd commandment(love neighbor) as expressed in galations and romans?

As an old fashioned style pagan ( as opposed to a leftist poseur) I think I can clear this up from a more objective perspective. Homosexuality isn’t just a “sin”, its an unnatural state of mind, a mental and emotional affliction. Anybody so inclined, in my belief system, isn’t so much “sinning” against God as he is wallowing in his own affliction, and delusion. He or she owes it to him or herself, first and foremost, to delve into the reasons-the real, root causes-of the affliction and try to overcome these self-destructive inclinations.

@feetxxxl:
You bring up the book of Leviticus as if I used it.
I didn’t.
Perhaps you have not read much of the Bible.
I have read it all, many times over.
Go to the book of Acts, Chapter 15 where the ”people of the nations” (non-Jews) are asking, do we have to put ourselves under Mosaic Law?

What do the apostles and older Christian men answer?
They wrote a letter to come with Paul, Barnabbas, Silas and Barsabbas as they went out to Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

It is found in verses 23 through 29.
What does it say?
That Christians do NOT have to put themselves under Mosaic Law.
BUT……the Holy Spirit had lead these men (remember these are all of the apostles of Jesus plus some other older men) to add: keep abstaining from idols, from blood, from things strangled and from fornication*.

The English term ”fornication” comes from the Greek word ”pornea.”
It is a much more inclusive word than mere adultery.
It adds to adultery also all pornographic activities.
Christians ignore this at their own peril.

Other translations use other terms for ”pornea:”

sexual immorality
(New International Version, ©2011)
(Today’s New International Version, ©2005)
(New International Version – UK)
(Holman Christian Standard Bible)
(Good News Translation)
(Common English Bible)
(New King James Version)
(English Standard Version)
(New Living Translation)


whoredom

(Young’s Literal Translation)


sexual sins

(GOD’S WORD Translation)
(New Century Version)
(Contemporary English Version)

the morality of sex and marriage
(The Message)

@feetxxxl: You said:

you have not answered my questions. you have given no explanation of how scripture says it is a sin by parsing the words of the verses you have chosen.

what is it about homosexuality that makes it a sin.

How did I parse the words in this scripture??

1. “If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.” (Leviticus 20:13)

Or this scripture?

2. “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

Or this one? I mean these are all scriptures that YOU cited.

3.”You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you.” (Leviticus 18:22-24)

Restate your question in a concise, straight forward manner and I will do my best to give you an answer.

your determination of what is fornication is by the law is any thing outside of marriage. gay couples in my church marry. is it then that fornication is anything outside of man woman marriage. then you are saying that fornication is determined by legal structure, according to you interpretation of the law. in doing so you are putting yourself UNDER THE LAW.

i say that fornication is anything done sexually that comes against the fruit of the spirit…..love, joy peace, kindness,……. and the love that is of christ.

i say the sexual intimacy of married gays is of the fruit of the spirit and the love of christ in the same it is of married heterosexuals. again if you say other wise according to the law you are putting yourself under the law. you are trumping witness of the spirit with your interpretation of the law.

under the new covernant we are not under the law, but instead grace which is also spirit.

i misused the the term parse which about grammical things, what i was trying to say was explain how the words of the verses say that you think they are saying.

your point is that any thing in lev is a sin. my point is that they are all prohibitions. some of them are sins of themselves and some are not sins of themselves.

whether they are sins of the new covenant is if they of themselves come against the fruit of the spirit and the love that is christ.

the sexual intimacy of married gays is out of the same things that brought them to marriage, committed mutual love, devotion, affection, trust and respect, the same things that brought heterosexuals to marriage , the same things thru which married heterosexuals engage in sexual intimacy.

if both are of the same spirit, and one is of god then both are of god. and if your understanding is different according to your personnal interpretation of the law, then you are putting yourself under the law.

under the new covenant we are not under the law, but grace which is spirit. paul says as believers in christ we are led by the spirit. if you trump the witness of spirit by your interpretation of the law then you are no longer led by the spirit but instead your intepretation of the law. what you are led by is what you are under.

Okay feet. We aren’t going to agree on this. But I see what point you think you are trying to make. It is a stretch by any means of the imagination for you to get to where you are in thinking that God condones homosexuality.

God does not condone it.

People suffering under a delusion can’t be expected to cure themselves of their own affliction through applications of their own faculties of logic and reason. Sex is a strong, primal urge that does not submit to reason or logic. In fact, the fierce hold the urge holds over the mind will influence it to twist logic and reason in order for it to justify its own needs. This has been going on through the ages. In ancient Greek times, when homosexuality became c0mmonplace among the upper classes, it was even codified by them in sacred myth, with the myth of Zeus and Ganymede. Later, a Roman emperor even deified a murdered slave male lover, establishing a cult in his honor. What the gay apologist here is doing is no better, nor is it any worse, than what those people of ancient times did in order to sanctify and justify their perversions.

It seeps into all areas of society, including but not limited to religion. At one time, homosexuality was seen as a mental and emotional disorder. Due to the political pressure of an emboldened gay lobby, psychiatry reversed course and declared it to be normal, thus acceptable.

And on and on it goes.

if your understanding is led by wisdom………….”he will make foolish the wisdom of the wise”

if your understanding is led by the law……..”the law is ONLY a shadow of things to come and not the realities to come.

if your understanding is led by christ’s spirit…………” .and to know christ’ s love surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.” it is his love that is the realities to come.

christ’s love………….god is love…………..god is spirit….christ is god …….it is god’s love that says what the law is and what it says.

god’s spirit in the old covenant said that one’s neighbors were those in one’s tribe, when christ walked the earth he said it was those who treated you well, whether believers or non believers, now his spirit says that our neighbor is everybody else regardless of the way they treat you.

this was not by wisdom, not by law, not thru antiquity,but by the spirit.

homosexuality demands being scrutinized thru his same revealing spirit..

@feetxxxl: You realize that you are justifying your behavior, right? You go to great lengths to show that God is in favor of homosexuality, when you and I both know it is wrong.

I am done with this, feet. You see only your side to this issue and you never deal with the fact that there is scripture in the Bible that shows homosexuality is wrong.

@feetxxxl: your determination of what is fornication is by the law is any thing outside of marriage. gay couples in my church marry. is it then that fornication is anything outside of man woman marriage. then you are saying that fornication is determined by legal structure, according to you interpretation of the law. in doing so you are putting yourself UNDER THE LAW.

i say that fornication is anything done sexually that comes against the fruit of the spirit…..love, joy peace, kindness,……. and the love that is of christ.

i say the sexual intimacy of married gays is of the fruit of the spirit and the love of christ in the same it is of married heterosexuals. again if you say other wise according to the law you are putting yourself under the law. you are trumping witness of the spirit with your interpretation of the law.

under the new covernant we are not under the law, but instead grace which is also spirit.

It is pretty obvious to me that you belong to a church which Paul described as filled with preachers who were willing to tickle the ears of their congregation by telling them what they wanted to hear instead of the healthful words that could lead them away from death.
(See 2 Timothy 4:1-5)

Jesus gave the warnings to the seven congregations in Revelation2 &3.
Take a look at each congregation for what it was Jesus found against some of them.
Ephesus left the love they had at first, going back and doing the wrong things they had left off doing for a time.
The congregation of Pergamin had encouraged (in some way) Jewish Christians to commit fornication.
The congregation of Thyratira was tolerating a teacher who misleads Jesus followers to commit fornication.

Having a minister who is willing to marry homosexuals is like the congregation that tolerated having Jezabel, see Rev 2:20-23.

Also read, if you will, 2nd Peter3:14-16.
Just because, through machinations of words, you can twist Scripture to seem to allow you a thing does not make that right.

@ThePaganTemple:

People suffering under a delusion can’t be expected to cure themselves of their own affliction through applications of their own faculties of logic and reason.

Yes, but it would be bad manners to talk about others’ religious beliefs like that.

And weeks later you’re still all at it.
Mind boggling.
Not a day goes by without more commentary.
Folks, we’re here, we’re queer, get over it.
Please, I beg, it’s only us whom are gay.
None of you, ever.
Leave us alone.
Accept us as you can.
Deal with us.
You deal with autism, we’re autistic, OK?
For we will go nowhere else.
But short of killing us all, you’ll never get rid of us.
And you’ll have to kill all the gay kids too.
But you can’t see us, you claim;
except to beat us as sissies.
And after you’re done killing us,
the next week there will be more.
For we are part of the human race.
Simply part of.
Without recourse.
Get over it. Please. We’re here.
God’s creation. For His reason. I don’t know why.
But here we are.
Condemning us forever is not a wining strategy.
Try something new.
Cheers
Jim Hlavac
the only gay guy in this “debate” — and
Gary Kukis is still wrong.
PS< in two or three weeks more of your "debate"
here, me, and my people, here, we shall be.
Ad infinitum.

@Jim Hlavac=

I think you’ve got it backwards, dude. It’s the other gay guy here, feetxxx, that won’t let the subject rest. The others are just responding to him, which is really a waste of time, but I guess they do it in the hopes they’ll get through to him somehow. I don’t care myself, one way or another, but I keep seeing the e-mail notifications pop up in my in-box, and its pretty obvious to me the Christians on this site aren’t just continually bantering about this subject over and over after all this time.

You have the right to live your life the way you want to, up to a point, but if you think you’re going to convince anybody that there isn’t a problem with homosexuality, you’re obviously whistling past the graveyard in a manner of speaking. Go on, be gay, be proud of it, but don’t expect everybody to just fall in line and swallow the politically correct claptrap which insists its normal, and even admirable, because its not, and its not.

The only discussion pertaining to homosexuality between gays and straights that is legitimate would involve the gay man trying to ascertain the reason for why he is a homosexual. Just accepting it as the way you are and that’s that is nothing but defeatist. You can be anything you want to be. It might not be easy, and it might always be a struggle, but there it is. We all have our crosses to bear. We all have things in our lives we need to reject, to overcome, to leave behind, and with which to struggle. How you handle that defines who and what you are. Homosexuality is a disorder, and the minute you allow that to define who and what you are, you’ve already lost the struggle. Don’t blame anybody else when they don’t agree to accept you on those terms despite your insistence they should.

@Gary Kukis:
But it does teach that stars are small lamps affixed to the firmament, above which are stored warehouses of hail and snow, right? I mean, that’s what it says, explictly. (Genesis 1:14–17, Daniel 8:10, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25, Revelation 6:13, 8:10, 9:1 and 12:4). and (Job 38:22), respectively.

I know that you’ve decided that a circle is actually a sphere. Martin Luther differed:

“Scripture simply says that the moon, the sun, and the stars were placed in the firmament of heaven, below and above which heaven are the waters…We Christians must be different from the philosophers [astronomers] in the way we think about the causes of things. And if some are beyond our comprehension like those before us concerning the waters above the heavens, we must believe them rather than wickedly deny them or presumptuously interpret them in conformity; with our understanding.”

– Martin Luther, Lectures on Genesis, Vol. 1, Luther’s Works, Concordia Pub. House, 1958

It seems to me that you’re cherry-picking here, deciding to accept or reject what the Bible plainly says, while all the time protesting that you believe everything in it.

See

to see how this came about.

See also http://hypertextbook.com/eworld/geocentric.shtml for many other citations of scripture.

Very few churches still subscribe to this – the Covenant People’s Church is the only one I’m aware of that doesn’t “cherry-pick” to conform with fact.

@Zoe Brain-

You don’t have to be a Bible-believing Christian or for that matter a believer in any religion, in order to be able to tell that homosexuality is a mental-emotional disorder. Forget the sin aspect, temporarily, any open minded person (and by open minded I don’t mean willing to tolerate anything) can tell that. It’s obvious on the face of it.

Not being well-versed in the Bible, nor a believer, I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess the reason homosexuality was condemned in the Bible was more complicated than just a bunch of priests sitting around “interpreting” God’s will based on their own dislikes and hang-ups. I think there was probably very practical reasons, including but not limited to the spreading of diseases. In fact, I think the Biblical term is “a grievous sore” or “a noisome sore”, but don’t quote me on that one.

Homosexuality was widespread among the Canaanites, and other places of the ancient world. The Hebrew position was probably unique, or close to it. It was probably based on observation. For one thing, homosexuals preyed on the young males of their communities. This was commonplace among mainly the aristocracy, Greece being a primary example. And by the way, whenever homosexual apologists point to the ancient world as an example of “tolerance”, they always point to the pederasty of ancient Greece, where perverted old queens couldn’t wait to find a cute young boy to love. The fact that gay men today point to that as an example to emulate speaks volumes about why they want to infiltrate our schools with their indoctrination agenda.

@Gary Kukis:

and the only reason you are unable to address my points is because…………………

@Gary Kukis:
” Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.”

fulfillment of the law is love.

Galatians 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “godlove(love one another as i have loved you) your neighbor as yourself.”

@Gary Kukis:

please explain how the words of romans (not just repeat the verses) say that homosexuality is a sin.

please explain how standing on legalities in 1tim anmd1cor to make a regulation against homosexuality without any evidence of violation of spirit or the fruit of the spirit does not come against the principles of the new covenant that christ’s love or the essence of his spirit is the new covenant’s standard.

please explain how standing on understandings of following regulation(when there is no evidence of violation of spirit) is not of the old covenant as in deut28, the old covenant which has long since passed away.

@Jim Hlavac:

Mind boggling……………….Mind boggling? after 600 years of anglo saxon homophobia would you expect anything less. these are the brave ones who willingly speak their mind, who you should be grateful of. its the silent ones you should be concerned about.

bottomline: when christ came he set up a standard of spirit when he said love one another as i have loved……godlove your neighbor as yourself. paul said we are no longer under the law,” that which is only a shadow of things to come and not the realities themselves” , but instead under grace which is also spirit. so our guide is the spirit of his love, that is depicted by its fruit as described in gal5. god is love

so as believers we are led by his spirt , his spirit that lives in each of us.

and that which is a sin is that which comes against the spirit of his love, not according to interpretation of the law but according to the spirit itself. any law of the new covenant is that which affirms what the spirit is speaking to us. it is this speaking that leads us to know what the law of the new covenant is.

if we were made by this love and this love lives in us thenwhy would would we not be able to identify this love, and what is of his love…………….directly? arent we believers suppose to know him as he knows us? if we dont know his love by direct relationship with him how can we credit ourselves in knowing him, and him knowing us?if we dont know his spirit to be led by his spirit directly how can we credit ourselves with knowing him? if we dont know him, then how can he know us……………….

if we know his love and the fruit of the spirit of his love………………..then we know sin is anything that comes against his love.”

Gary: bigfoot said:

Kukis:

please explain how the words of romans (not just repeat the verses) say that homosexuality is a sin.

Don’t even waste your time. I told bigfoot over and over which scriptures said it was wrong and laid it out in easy to understand language; but to no avail. All bigfoot wants to do is say that God teaches love and he loves his boyfriend, so all is well.

Give up on him, I did.

and what numbered messages did you explain how the words of those scriptures said it was a sin? that it was not about assignment of meaning in spite of those words, or that you were not standing on legalities that came against the principles of the new covenant?

@feetxxxl: You said:

and what numbered messages did you explain how the words of those scriptures said it was a sin?

Here, here, and here for example.

Just read them for yourself. It is pretty self explanatory, for instance – “If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.” (Leviticus 20:13).

Pretty much leaves no wiggle room there. If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both men have sinned, or committed an abomination.

What is the definition of abomination?

1. anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.

2. intense aversion or loathing; detestation: He regarded lying with abomination.

3. a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.: Spitting in public is an abomination. – Source

more legalities………but you know that not all prohibitions of lev of themseles were sins or sins under the new covenant. women wearing men’s clothes was also called an abomination.

show me a verse of the new covenant that says that we are under the law……….meaning using interpretations of the law to determine what is of christ rather than witness of the spirit and the fruit of the spirit of gal5, as spoken by john in 1john1, thru intimate relationship thru the grace of the holy spirit that lived in him to determine that jesus was the actual son of god and as peter did at cornelius’s house about gentiles, who were not under the law, being of christ as well as jews who were under the law.

to say that it is interpretaions of the law that determines what is of christ puts christ under the law, when scripture says christ(righteousness) is apart from the law and his love transcends it.

Perhaps I should quote from Isaiah as well:

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

I don’t see what the big deal is. Can’t you simply admit that the Bible is against homosexuality and say, “We just don’t believe in the Bible” or “we just do not believe in those passages; we are more enlightened now.” What is the reason you need to get the Bible to agree with you? I am not concerned whether the Talmud or the Koran agree with me. What is the reason for your obsession here?

Where the Bible says the Earth is Flat – no, I don’t believe it.
Where it says that there is a Firmament keeping the waters above out, I don’t believe it.
Where it says there are storehouses of hail and snow, I don’t believe it.

Do you?
Do you believe that Outer Space is full of water?
Do you believe that stars are fixed to a canopy no higher than the Empire State Building (see Baruch on how tall the tower of Babel was)?
Do you believe that Evil-utionists have faked all the data about meteorology and space travel?

Or do you disbelieve the Bible, but only when it suits you.

Mr Kukis, it’s not that you believe in your Bible as you wish to believe it; it is your right. And from what I gather, there’s a good few million ways. Why 1/2 the divorced are good Bible people, I’m sure; and thrice married philanderer Gingrich but one fine example. It’s that you seem to demand we all believe as you believe it. And well, that’s not going to happen, but good luck. Why not talk to the Jerry Springer show guests, to learn all about good Bible people doing Lord knows what.

What is appalling in this article of yours, written months ago, and still receiving comments, is your lack of facts about gay folks; your utter disregard for reason, your abandonment of logic, and your delusion that we few gay folks are going to take over the world or something by merely asking to be given a shred of decency of the “love thy neighbor as thyself,” sort — right out of the Bible indeed. There’s also a psalm or two about “don’t worry about what you don’t understand” — and sir, you do not understand gay people, and seem imperious to any explanation come from us. I try though; I really do.

You have so maliciously defamed gay men that I can’t fathom the mindset; I really can’t. You make up this belief of yours from some deep well of nothingness, where fantasy might be spun, and spew it out as “fact” — sir, how wrong are you? Let me tell you:

I was a gay kid; everyone in my family knew it, from oh, 10 or 12, certainly by 15; and NEVER in my life was I “recruited” by some older gay guy. I was not abused. I was not molested. I was not promised cookies if only I would grow up gay; nor ice cream or a $20 if I had sex right then and there with what you perceive are marauding old gays come to pluck youth from schools. And I don’t recall ever meeting another gay person until I was just shy of 18, when I sought out a bar called the Ninth Circle in NYC, (we are not without our irony.) And every single last gay man I ever talked to has the same story; and I dare say I probably know more gay men then you. And if 100% of us are absolutely positive that we were not “recruited” I would say that for your premise to be correct that we are 100% liars in the strangest uncoordinated mass lying event humankind has ever known.

As to why I might be gay; I think it’s on the autism spectrum, a brain wiring issue. It is not a moral failing, but simply part of the human condition. Alas, there being no fairy tales for fairies, no gay kid ever grows up with “find your prince charming and settle down.” But we do pretty darn well; I know at least a dozen gay couples that have been together for 30+ years — longer than the combined six marriages of Trump and Newt.

But you, you got your theories and fantasies. Perhaps you should go into novel writing, instead of talking about things you clearly know nothing about.

Have a pleasant day.

And Don’t Tread On Me.

“Can’t you simply admit that the Bible is against homosexuality ”
not only is scripture not against homosexuality, but christ’s love expressed thru new covenant scriptures says over and over that being gay is of god. homosexuals live the fullness of god’s love in their lives and marriages in the same way as do heterosexuals.

bottom line : new covenant affirms that homosexuals are absolutely equal to heterosexuals.

if we believers condemn something a sin solely thru an interpretaion of law with no evidence on how it comes against christ’s love, we are attempting to put believers as well as christ under the law.

christ’s love surpasses all knowledge.

@Zoe Brain:

Where the Bible says the Earth is Flat – no, I don’t believe it.

The Bible does not say that the world is flat; it says that it is spherical and that God hangs the earth upon nothing.

Where it says that there is a Firmament keeping the waters above out, I don’t believe it.
Where it says there are storehouses of hail and snow, I don’t believe it.

It simply is saying that the atmosphere is filled with water.

I do believe the Bible and it is your choice to believe it or not. My point was, why does anyone have the need to try to fit the Bible to his personal degeneracy?

@Jim Hlavac: With regards to Gingrich and people who are divorced; man is a fallen creature, which is clearly testified to in the Bible.

If memory serves, the crux of my argument in this original article is, establishing gay marriage is not the end of anything. It will be the beginning of great legal battles over all kinds of things, but primarily against Christians. This is occurring all over the world and in the United States, so there is nothing illogical about the proposal.

Being attracted to men does not give you special privileges to pursue this attraction any more than being attracted to children gives pedophiles the right to pursue their desires (which is clearly a part of the gay agenda, even though you will deny it over and over again). Isn’t this where one person admitted that he wanted access to young male homosexuals in order to help to them to become “good homosexuals”? How transparent is that?

Having a desire to do something, even if it is a strong desire, does not validate that desire. It does not make it moral and it does not make it okay. I have a normal desire for women. This does not make it okay for me to chase after every woman I can get. In the homosexual world, when you have 2 males, then there is no morality; you simply do what you want to do with whomever you want to do it. If you are a reasonable attractive male homosexual over age 30, you know this to be a fact, as do your 400 or so partners, whose names you would be hard-pressed to remember.

But part of your problem is, you focus on the body; the key to a real relationship is a man and a woman’s souls, which coalesce, which God designed to coalesce. This is how you can have a man and a woman, say, in their 60’s, who are no longer attractive to the outside world, but they are still attractive to one another…it is all based upon the soul, not upon the bodies.

Now, is it possible you were just born gay? That is, born to desire the bodies of other males. Possibly; but this is fed by your own thinking and your own concentration; and your unwillingness to consider that your match is a female soul…because you are too hung up on the male body.

That other males have practice homosexuality because they have been lured into it or someone has played on their desires, no matter how temporal; this is well-testified to. No homosexual would have breast implants if he was not out to have sex with as many males as he can. This is why 99% of all male to female transexuals are “pre-op.”

If you will re-read the article, you will see there are no factual errors in it.

@feetxxxl:

not only is scripture not against homosexuality, but christ’s love expressed thru new covenant scriptures says over and over that being gay is of god.

This is so insane, it is hard to respond, as clearly, you ignore the clear words of Scripture, both Old and New Testament, which condemn homosexuality.

God’s relationship to the Jew was a covenant relationship, which began with Abraham and continued with his son and grandson and was picked up and expanded with King David. It was all about how God had promised them the land of Canaan which would be, at some point in time, ruled over by David’s Greater Son, Who is Jesus Christ. We are not talking about a few Scripture references here, but hundreds of them, beginning in Genesis and continuing throughout Samuel and the psalms and the prophets.

The church is the new thing, the new creation of God, and the New Covenant of God, in one sense, is made with the church age believers (there is also a new covenant made with OT believers as well).

None of this has anything to do with homosexuality. The idea that homosexuality used to be forbidden but now, under the new covenant, is now to be celebrated, is so weird and such a bizarre twist of the Word of God, that it boggles my mind.

homosexuals live the fullness of god’s love in their lives and marriages in the same way as do heterosexuals.

Part of heterosexual marriages is fidelity, which is confirmed in both the Old and New Testaments; and is not a part of male homosexual unions of any sort. How you get to this point in your thinking is hard to imagine.

bottom line : new covenant affirms that homosexuals are absolutely equal to heterosexuals.

Again, this is some weird theology pulled out of the air and there has never been a respected theologian for 2000 years who has taught this.

That homosexuals can be saved, is certainly true. The key is faith in Jesus Christ; the idea that homosexuals might struggle with their desires after salvation, just as sexual addicts of other sorts struggle with their desires, is true for some. Before and after salvation, we have a sin nature; and we will use this sin nature to distort the truth. But Jesus said, “You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” He did not say, “Distort My words, and your distortions of My words will set you free.”

if we believers condemn something a sin solely thru an interpretaion of law with no evidence on how it comes against christ’s love, we are attempting to put believers as well as christ under the law.

We condemn homosexual practices because that is the clear teaching of the Bible, in the Old and New Testaments, which verses have already been quoted above. Not being under the OT Law (the Mosaic Law) does not mean that we are lawless. Having Jesus’s love does not mean we can do anything that we want to do. These are points made in the book of Romans.

Now, did you believe in Jesus Christ? Is your trust in Him for your salvation?

Mr. Kukis, my mother always taught me that if one has nothing nice to say, don’t say it. However, sometimes, in simple pure self-defense one must quit the teachings of my mom and engage the fray. And so, in answer to this bizarre fixation you have about me and mine, based in the ephemeral reaches of you fetid mind — and the even more bizarre belief that you know exactly what me and mine are thinking about, and planning to do, omniscient and perfect being you do pretend to be — and the even further down the road of your personal degeneracy into delusion — I delved into your article, written some 8 months ago, on which you are still commenting, now today — and simply demolished your mush. Believe as you wish; do not try to push your own personal theocratic beliefs on to me, thank you very much. Be like the Amish; quiet and in the countryside.

Just click on my name; links to my blog; com’n down, have a look see, and educate yourself about the real world and not a book which far too many people have differing opinions on to be a perfect source for all our laws and mores in the modern world. And of course; feel free to leave a comment of any sort you want; even a continuation of you bizarre beliefs. I feel they are right up with the nuts who think the world will end on Dec. 21, 2012 because the Mayan Calender says so; but it is your right to be nuts, of that I do not quibble. Have a pleasant day, and God bless you; and boy do you need a blessing, egad.

@gary kukis:

this charge of infidelity is not of my experience. i attend an mcc church of 600 gays where fidelity is preached from the pulpit, not open marriage. i know of no believing couple that assumes infidelity is of christ’s love.

you are a believer in christ. you know the supremacy of christ’s love. you know his love intimately because his spirit lives in you. god is love . what is sin under the new covenant is that which comes against his love.
we know that if we say something is a sin soley from an interpretation of the law without any evidence of how it comes against christ’s love we are putting not only believers but christ’s love in us under the law. but christ’s love surpasses all knowledge.

please explain how being gay comes against christ’s love.

those being gay live the fullness of his love in their lives and marriages. in other words the fruit of the spirit of gal5 is in their lives and marriages in the same way that it is in the lives and marriages of heterosexuals. surely the fruit of the spirit of christ is different from those of powers and principalities.

i think we have already discussed scripture. but if you like we can rediscuss any scripture that you think supports the idea that scripture says homosexuality
a sin.

as far as theologians go please show me which theologians said that antisemetism was against christ. in 1700 years of church led persecutions(7 inquisitions, the leader of the last was made pope, multiple genecide, deportments and internments, one 300 yds from the vatican ) in spite of romans 9, 10, and 11 existing for 2000 years.
martin luther’s writings about the jews was so extreme that hitler used them to support his treatment of the jews. luther a learned man knew the historical treatment of the jews by the church.

you can add to that list 800 years of practicing indulgences, 2000 years of burning witches at the stake(kjv ” do not suffer a witch to live”), 1700 years of condoning ethnic slavery(enslaving whiteswas made illegal as soon as it christanity became legal and accepted 300ad.