The Dishonest Gay Marriage Debate [Reader Post]

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Some of us have observed the homosexual movement from the very beginning.  First, all they wanted to do was practice the sexual desires which “God gave them,” so they managed to get sodomy laws abolished.  But that was not the end game.

Then they wanted to live with their heads held high, so they wanted to hold Gay Pride Parades.  If you have ever been to a gay parade, you know that, it is not just a bunch of homosexuals on floats holding up banners saying, “I’m gay and loving it!”  You will see all sorts of simulated sexual acts and men wearing clothing in such a way as to be erotically graphic.  It is much more of an “in your face” approach.  “This is what we are; deal with it.”  But that was not the end game.

Now that gay pride parades are common—at least in some areas—there was the next step.  So many male homosexuals had the love of their lives suffering in hospitals, and yet, they had no legal right to see this person, and family members were keeping them separated, and so they had to have civil unions or domestic partnership laws.  The hospital scenario was presented again and again, although this was a situation that fewer than 1% of homosexuals had ever dealt with.  Many had been to hospitals with ex-lovers dying of AIDS, but the number who had been banned from their “lifetime” partner was minuscule.  However, by presenting that rarely occurring scenario, homosexuals gained quite a number of state laws which allowed them to become legally attached with the legal rights that they needed to have.  But, that was not the end game.

And now, today, the big push is for marriage rights.  Everyone has the right to marry the person that they love, except for gays; and it is so unfair!  “It is a fundamental human right to marry the person you love!” they proclaim.

There are churches in every state—many of them headed by gay pastors—who are more than willing to perform a marriage ceremony, and pronounce them married at the end of the ceremony; and gays can tell everyone that they know, “This is my gay marriage partner” and they can demand such recognition from their friends and family.  But, you know what is so terrible?  The state will not proclaim them married!  The federal government will not proclaim them married!  Oh, dear, oh dear; this is such a violation of their civil rights!  How can they really feel married unless the state or federal government recognizes them as married?  Attending their own marriage ceremony in which they are pronounced married?  Not good enough.  Telling all  of their friends and family that they are married?  Not good enough.  Marriage only counts, for some reason, if the state or federal government certifies them as being married.

But gay marriage is not the end game.  No gay will ever tell you the end game, because if they did, you would never support gay marriage.

What gays like is more sexual partners.  Whereas, it is very unusual for a heterosexual male to have 100 or more different partners, this is not unusual in the gay community.  A study in 1978 said that 75% of gay men had over 100 sexual partners.  And since gays make up only about 3% of the population, it is hard to find new gay men to have sex with.  What is their approach?  Some partially change themselves into women; they don’t go all the way (except for the very nutty ones), but they go far enough so that they can have sex with some straight men.

However, if marriage between gays becomes the law, and the state recognizes homosexual marriages to be legally equivalent to marriages between heterosexuals, then life in America is going to change dramatically.  Gay marriage is not the end game; but once gay marriage is made legal, then gays can do a number of things they have been wanting to do.

First, because there are always been animosity among gays against Christians, the Bible will be proclaimed to be hate literature and any pastor who tries to teach portions of the Bible will be taken to court for teaching hatred.  They could care less whether or not they win; sue a few small churches, and word will get around fast enough.  Defending against such lawsuits is expensive, and few churches can afford to do it.  We know this will happen because it already has.  If marriage between homosexuals is “legalized” then, this opens up the opportunity to strike back at the church, and if a few congregations get shut down, who cares?  These churches are nothing but disseminators of hatred.

However, attacking Christians and the Bible is not the end game; that is simply sport and revenge.  The end game is, more homosexual partners.  When a man has had 100 sexual partners, that has to be a clue that, having sex, and a lot of sex, is extremely important to the homosexual.  If there is a way to expand the franchise, so to speak, that is seen as a great objective.

Sexuality is a complex thing, and homosexuals have found that, if a male is violated at a very early age, sexual gratification can be associated with homosexual behavior.  This does not work in all cases, but it works in enough cases to make presenting homosexual behavior in the schools a worthy goal for the homosexual community.  There are many schools today that teach, in sex education, that there are 3 types of sexual intercourse, and all 3 of them are equally valid.  This is taught to as young an age as they can get away with.

Even today, there are schools where books about homosexual couplings are made a part of the curriculum for grammar school children.  “And Tango Makes Three” is a popular book which has crept into the primary schools all over America.

There are many schools where homosexuals have pushed anti-bullying programs which, incidentally, present homosexual couples as normal.  These programs are pushed with great enthusiasm, despite the meager evidence of bullying occurring because a child has two daddies.  However, essentially to these anti-bullying programs is, a homosexual union is normal thing and a good thing.

Homosexuals know that young children, just reaching puberty, can be carefully navigated into trying homosexual acts.  They know that, by using lies or trickery, make up and surgery, that additional males can be tempted into homosexual acts.  This does not mean that such young men will be turned into homosexuals; it just means, they can be gotten to experiment, and that is the end-game.  More gay experimentation and more gay partners.

Men are men, whether they are predominantly interested in homosexuality or heterosexuality; and, for many men, multiple partners is a desirable thing to them.  This helps to explain why, even in “committed” gay relationships, fidelity is almost nonexistent.

This is why homosexuals have become so active in school curriculums, particularly on the grammar school level.  This is why homosexuals are so interested in having gay marriage proclaimed as legal and equal to heterosexual marriage.

This is why they want homosexual acts to be presented side-by-side heterosexual acts in sex education.

Where is the best place for gays to encourage more gay behavior, which means more partners?  On the grammar school level.

Here is exactly what they want; here is the end game:

(1) Sexual intercourse between males to be presented as exactly the same as sexual intercourse between a male and a female.  No judgment.  “You like coffee; I like tea; its all the same.”  All of the resultant physical problems from anal intercourse will not be taught at any level.  If there is any teaching about AIDS, it will be presented as a disease spread among all sexual relationships, and, all you have to do is, use a condom to prevent it.  Furthermore, this must be presented to as young a group as possible.  Preferably to children who do not even know what sexual relations are.

(2) A homosexual union must be presented as exactly equal to a heterosexual union.  I have a few dozen Time-Life books on home repair, and, in more than half of the pictures, women are doing the work; laying brick, lifting up walls, drilling holes—this is what homosexuals want to see in our schools.  If there is a book or a movie or an illustration which involves a family, they want to see a homosexual couple represented.  From the earliest age possible, they want young 5 and 6 year old boys reading about gay penguins, or 10 year olds doing a math word problem which involves a homosexual couple   Just like women construction workers are ubiquitous in my Time-Life books, they want to see homosexual couples ubiquitous in the public school curriculum.  And if a school fails to do this, then they will go to court over it.  Such a school would be teaching underlying or institutionalize bigotry, and that must be stopped.  They cannot take such a school to court today, because gay marriage is not recognized by the state and federal governments.  However, once that hurdle is made, then “institutional sexual bigotry” in the schools will be attacked via the legal system.

(3) Young males in particular must be raised in such a way as to think about their sexuality at a very young age; preferably before puberty, which will encourage experimentation.  Whether you realize this or not, more homosexual behavior will be the result.  Whether it sticks or not, is not important.  It is the experimentation that counts.  It is that discussion about sexual identify with a trusted adult that counts.

Homosexual marriage is not about love and commitment; anyone can do that, with or without the law.  Passing homosexual marriage is really about recruiting more partners, the younger, the better.

These things are being done to a very limited extent at a handful of schools across the United States.  However, once gay marriage passes (particularly, if it is done on the federal level), then these things will be pushed in a much more concerted way in our future, through the schools and the courts.

From Conservative Review #166

http://kukis.org/blog/ConservativeReview166.htm

http://kukis.org/blog/ConservativeReview166.pdf

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The firmament or expanse was a great tent-like (Isaiah 40:22) ceiling made of solid crystalline material (Job 37:18 and Ezekiel 1:22), which might be pierced by skyscraper and gimlet (3 Baruch 3:7–8). It had many windows, some of which opened and closed for the sun and moon to travel through (1 Enoch 72:2–5) or to let water, which was held above, fall through as rain (Genesis 7:11). On top there were also warehouses of snow and hail (Job 38:22). Stars were small objects that were attached tenuously to its surface (Genesis 1:14–17, Daniel 8:10, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25, Revelation 6:13, 8:10, 9:1 and 12:4).

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:6-10, King James Version)

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:14-18, King James Version)

(Isaiah 40:22, King James Version)
22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

(Job 37:18, King James Version)
18Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

(Ezekiel 1:22, King James Version)
22And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

(Baruch 3:7-8)
7 And the Lord appeared to them and confused their speech, when they had built the tower to the height of four hundred and sixty-three cubits. And they took a gimlet, and sought to pierce the heaven, saying,
8Let us see (whether) the heaven is made of clay, or of brass, or of iron. When God saw this He did not permit them, but smote them with blindness and confusion of speech, and rendered them as thou seest.

(1 Enoch 72:2-5)
2. And this is the first law of the luminaries: the luminary the Sun has its rising in the eastern portals of the heaven, and its setting in the western portals of the heaven.
3. And I saw six portals in which the sun rises, and six portals in which the sun sets and the moon rises and sets in these portals, and the leaders of the stars and those whom they lead: six in the east and six in the west, and all following each other in accurately corresponding order: also many windows to the right and left of these portals.
4. And first there goes forth the great luminary, named the Sun, and his circumference is like the circumference of the heaven, and he is quite filled with illuminating and heating fire.
5. The chariot on which he ascends, the wind drives, and the sun goes down from the heaven and returns through the north in order to reach the east, and is so guided that he comes to the appropriate portal and shines in the face of the heaven.

(Genesis 7:11, King James Version)
11In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

(Job 38:22, King James Version)
22Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

A circular disk is not a sphere. The Bible account is exactly congruent to Babylonian cosmology of the time. And no, the Earth does not “hang on nothingness”, it is supported by pillars above the waters below.

@Zoe Brain:

Umm… why, precisely, are you quoting things that are not part of the Bible in order to try and support your points about what the Bible supposedly says?

about genesis1 consider that the waters are heaven being divided from the cosmic plane of the entire universe in other words, different dimensions, that light and darkness was not only about the cosmic realm but that which is life versus that which is not life, that the word “earth” is not about this planet but the accumulated mass of matter of the entire universe, that” let there be light” , is the big bang taking place, forming the galaxies, stars and planets, including the earth and moon.

consider that genesis is the context of the creation of everything in the universe including the creation of all cognitive thinking life forms made in the image of god as in the movie “district 9”.

Aye – which books are included in the Bible is a matter of some contention – I included two apocryphal books that scholars consider genuine.
They also provide illumination that the idea that the “Firmament” was anything other than a physical object is incorrect. The Bible – no matter which version you prefer – is quite clear.

feetxxl – If the Bible is “waxing metaphorical” so much, that a crystal dome keeping waters above out can be interpreted as a body of gas (a concept unknown at the tome) containing moisture, then you can pretty much prove anything. All you have to do is pick which bits you intend to believe, and call them literal, and discard the rest as “metaphorical” or “poetic”. Hence the Noah story didn’t involve actual water below erupting from the fountains of the deep, nor waters above pouring in through holes in the dome – the “windows of heaven” – it just meant heavy rain. Though where the water came from and where it went to afterwards, that’s another matter. It’s a Miracle, obviously.

But when it comes to another part of the Babylonian creation myth, that Humans were created out of dust separate from the animal kingdom – despite having bones, blood, tissue, cells. even DNA as do all animals – then you insist on literalism rather than poetry.

Had the science of biology not lagged behind the sciences of astronomy and (later) meteorology, no doubt the argument would accept evolution, but insist on the firmament being a solid, transparent dome whose blue colour comes from the waters above – and anyone who says otherwise must be in Revellion against God.

“Scripture simply says that the moon, the sun, and the stars were placed in the firmament of the heaven, below and above which heaven are the waters… It is likely that the stars are fastened to the firmament like globes of fire, to shed light at night… We Christians must be different from the philosophers (ie Natural philosophers – or Scientists as we’d say today) in the way we think about the causes of things. And if some are beyond our comprehension like those before us concerning the waters above the heavens, we must believe them rather than wickedly deny them or presumptuously interpret them in conformity with our understanding.”

— Martin Luther, quoted in Martin Luther, Luther’s Works. Vol. 1. Lectures on Genesis, ed. Janoslaw Pelikan, Concordia Pub. House, St. Louis, Missouri, 1958, pp. 30, 42, 43.

As for Calvin:

“Those who assert that ‘the earth moves and turns’…[are] motivated by ‘a spirit of bitterness, contradiction, and faultfinding;’ possessed by the devil, they aimed ‘to pervert the order of nature.'”

– John Calvin, sermon no. 8 on 1st Corinthians, 677, cited in John Calvin: A Sixteenth Century Portrait by William J. Bouwsma (Oxford Univ. Press, 1988), A. 72

“If the Bible is “waxing metaphorical” so much, that a crystal dome keeping waters above out can be interpreted as a body of gas (a concept unknown at the tome) containing moisture, then you can pretty much prove anything. ”
believers were probably saying the same thing
to the theories of galileo until the day that he proved them to be fact.

Some still are. There are quite a few Biblical Literalists who don’t believe in this Galilean nonsense because it goes against what’s plainly written in the Bible.

http://galileowaswrong.blogspot.com/
http://geocentrism.com/
etc.

But even then, they deny that a “Firmament” exists, merely because it plainly does not. Even they “pick and choose” which parts of the Bible to believe as physical fact, and which to discard merely because they contradict the existence of aircraft, skyscrapers, spaceflight etc. They just put the boundaries a bit further from reality than most.

I suggest you have a read of http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=525105

The parallels with some of what’s been said here are striking.

OK, you people are out of your minds — no, I must say this — 7 months after this article is published and you are still debating the friggin’ Bible? What the hell is the subject of Kukis slanderous and libelous article? It’s gay folks – -not the Bible! – -OH folks, I don’t care about your Bible arguments – ’tis the substance of the false criminal charges by Gary Kukis that concerns me! — Deal with the subject at hand – -the Kukis Conspiracy! — not the internecine warfare between different Bible believers —

this cretinous man has made a salacious, tort actionable slander and libel against gay folks — me – -me me -0- MEMEMMEMEME — what proof does this Kukis have for his contentions? It’s beyond the pale of decency! — what the FUCK? and you argue the Bible? Why, I never have seen such mush! You are arguing over the numbers of angels on a pin- or whether Martin Luther or Hus or the Pope has the better Bible belief — are you this friggin’ nuts?

What is the point of the article people? Are you this stupid? No, don’t tell me so: It is Kukis’s delusion about me and mine — focus — focus — not meander into some mush over Bible readings.

I have never seen such crap in my life.

This is preposterous — I’m off to a lawyer at this point to drag Kukis and this website into court to either prove his contentions — or pay damages — the rest of you with him. It’s disgusting!

Never have I seen such mush from real live Americans — you must be all pretending you are from the Medieval times of whose “god” is better. I’m enraged!

Focus on what the hell the article says — not your bible arguments — cretins, simply ignoramuses — of astounding proportions. egad. no wonder our country ist verklempt und verschnicheter — it’s enough, who gives a crap about our bible mush — deal with the subject of Kukis’s article — the false criminal charges; the salacious lies, the slander and libel — the man is a moron, and you argue “b ible — how delusional are you?

are gay people seeking to molest every boy in sight or not? that is the gist of his complaint — he’s delusional, and actionable — this is absurd.

it’s a simple proposition — Kukis is crazy; the rest of you seem to join him. Sad, in America today

Let me be clear — I’m out to destroy this heathen on the hustings. OK? you got yourselves one pissed off sissy. Egad; what mush!

i not sure i understand. gary is entitled to his own understanding wrong or not. i dont see what laws he violates by publishing them on the internet. the klu klux klan does the same thing. i definitely have no intention on becoming upset over what gary chooses to believe or not believe, particularly when almost have of this country agrees with him on some level. take solace in the fact that the trend for supporting gay equality increases everyday and eventually will become the mandate of this country.

@feetxxxl: You said:

please explain how being gay comes against christ’s love.

Scroll up bigfoot. I among others, showed where in the Bible that homosexuality was condemned.

@anticsrocks:
apart from your never engaging in open discussion on any words of scripture, so you hold an interpretation of the law that says it is a sin, and that means being gay comes against christ’s love how?

@Jim Hlavac: We argue the Bible because bigfoot repeatedly, falsely states that the Bible is in favor of homosexuality.

I ain’t done yet, Mr Kukis — and all here — this less-than-a-man will see me in a court yet. This is outrageous — he spews malicious lies; that is his article; that his is statement; that is his belief– and you are beyond the pale of humanhood, Mr. Kukis — retract this article! Apologize for wrong doing. Repent your evil ways! — and you people argue the bible? Are you kidding? Ye know not of what you speak, your words fall on stony ground. Let me show you the light: What a bunch of miscreant theocrats– out to destroy this nation like a bunch of socialists — egad, you are monstrous people –

and I shall strike you down; as God is my witness and Jesus on my side – -we gays are a test unto you to “love thy neighbor as thyself” – and you have failed, miserably so: I have talked to God – my God – -and he says to you: get a better God – for yours is faulty and but idols and Baal, ready to be exterminated from the earth. You will accept us, we gay folks, though we be the least of His people– so help me God, you will be destroyed. Ye are heathen; and do not accept Jesus, who said: treat others as you wish to be treated — bear not false witness – don’t worry about what you do not understand — and love thy neighbor as thyself — and this article is horrendously lacking in every word of Jesus ever uttered, Mr Kukism you are so wrong as to be beyond reason, come, you heathen, and I shall quote the bible to you.

I am your neighbor – you do not love me — you do not follow the Word of the Lord — ye pharisees at the church house door – do not tread on me – blasphemers against the Lord our God; I am holy, cease your nonsense, or a pox be upon you.

Let my people go! I will not relent. Every time some miscreant publishes here I shall speak the Word of the Lord our Jesus; for I am but the pink sheep of God. And I shall also gather unto me the proof in a court of law. Do not tread on me or mine; repent your evil ways, Ms Kukis ==you are evil incarnate — I shall not relent. A pox upon you until you relent. Let my people go!

@Jim Hlavac: You said:

…we gays are a test unto you to “love thy neighbor as thyself” – and you have failed…

Would you like to show me where I said that I don’t love my neighbors, or where I maligned homosexuals??

Until you do, please stop lumping me in with those you think have wronged you. For you to do that is as wrong as what you perceive the author of the OP has done to you.

What is even more disgusting is that 7 months after I thought I would hear no more of this horrid mush by you, Mr. Kukis, you keep showing up in my emails! That you are still spewing bile is all the more horrendous. Never in my life have I encountered such mush! Some sixty members of my family in this country love me — how dare you try to rile them up against me! — I have some 60 relatives in the former Communist Republic of Czechoslovakia who love me — how dare you try to rile them up against me! — Who the hell do you think you are? I have dozens of hetero friends – how dare you try to rile them up against me? — and none of them will – you have lost all of us for nonsense, I don’t give a crap about you beliefs! I live in a free Republic of individuals to which my grandparents on all four sides have immigrated from – to get away from people like you -and they love me — how dare you say these things you do?

And months later you are still spewing your arrant nonsense – retract these comments! — retract this article! – -learn the way of he Lord our God — and seek not to be some heathen on our hustings.

I am now so enraged that I will hound you, forever – until you be gone! You are a pharisee preaching crap — a poseur pretending to be FOR the Lord our God – but spewing forth unending bile —

you will apologize, or I shall hound you for the rest of your days – you shall be my friend, for I wish to love you as my neighbor — or Jesus Himself will come down and calm my frazzled nerves – retract and repent this malicious mush!

@bigfoot: Yawn…. You are really tiresome, bigfoot.

I pointed out in the Bible where it shows homosexuality is wrong, here.

Since you are too lazy to scroll up, I did the heavy lifting for you.

Come now sir — I have talked to you as a person — I have said “Mr. Kukis,” unerringly polite as Jesus says to do – I have turned the other cheek — but self-defense says: pull out the sword: you get these messages — as I get yours — don’t tell me “No”– for I hear about this discussion here 7 months later — talk to me — “Mr. Hlavac” — I have addressed you civilly — I have endeavored to follow His word – Let me be truthful to all others; let me put my light upon the basket! — Sir – -where is your “debate” — No, you hide behind mush! Well, sir, you have met a pissed off sissy — you will retract these comments!

No, you do not want debate — you want condemnation – you want wanton accusation based on “your” bible (I dare not put in capitals as it should be, for you know not the Word!) — Hell sir– you are heathen enough for not even engaging me! —

Come sir, be a good Christian – spread your news to me — and I shall spread mine — like you never knew what hit you! Come sir, don’t hide behind your common name, but “debate” a Hlavac — a name that is not well hidden.

Kukis is a dime a dozen, so plain you be; but Hlavac, sir, Hlavac is quite a different thing.

I shall engage you on every point and fact — not about your Bible belief — which you may hold – but about this horrendous and disgusting article you wrote! Let us “debate” this mush of yours!

I do it daily — hence my blog name, linked through my name — the daily mush!

How dare you? you heathen cretin — I am not done with you — retract this crap! Now! DO NOT FURTHER INFLAME ME — for 35 five years I have listened to your kind — I am done with it —

speak now — or answer it a court of law! Do not treat on me — retract this crap! And cease your discussion on it — do not clutter my email, lest you wish to incur my wrath. Ye egad, you got a pissed off sissy on a mission to destroy your life until you repent.

Can I be clearer — I don’t give a fuck. No more sir, nor more. 35 years is enough. Apologize and repent, I will not relent!

Cheers,
Jim Hlavac
sissy extraordinaire.

@Jim Hlavac: Who in the blue hell are you talking to?

Uh, anticsrocks -, um, I’m addressing the author of this article — Gary Kukis – Doh, I’m speaking to this heathen which wrote the mush — are you that dense too? Geez — I thought I rendered unto him what was due — aftter 450 + comments — in which I referenced him succinctly — are you that blind? Are thee? Egad!

He is an SOB — let him come to me – he has not – for he has nothing to say. He is as fearful as you are an idiot!

But if you are that blind -after repeated referral to the author of the article upon which we still discuss — then you are blind — or else…. willfully stupid.

@Zoe Brain:

Aye – which books are included in the Bible is a matter of some contention – I included two apocryphal books that scholars consider genuine.

Actually, no, it’s not a matter of contention as to which books are included in the Bible.

You’re supposedly arguing based on the contents of the Bible but yet you feel it necessary to add things that aren’t there.

Epic fail on your part.

The Syriac and Coptic Christians include them. Maccabees too is included by most Christian churches.

Catholic and Orthodox Christians regard as fully canonical most of these books called Apocrypha, and their canonicity was explicitly affirmed at the Council of Trent in 1546 and Synod of Jerusalem (1672) respectively.

The English-language King James Version (KJV) of 1611 followed the lead of the Luther Bible in using an inter-testamental section containing the following. The KJV followed the Geneva Bible of 1560 almost exactly (variations are marked below).

1 Esdras (Vulgate 3 Esdras)
2 Esdras (Vulgate 4 Esdras)
Tobit
Judith (“Judeth” in Geneva)
Rest of Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24)
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus (also known as Sirach)
Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy (“Jeremiah” in Geneva) (all part of Vulgate Baruch)
Song of the Three Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
Story of Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13)
The Idol Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14)
Prayer of Manasses (follows 2 Chronicles in Geneva)
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

All King James Bibles published before 1666 included the Apocrypha. In 1826,the British and Foreign Bible Society decided that no BFBS funds were to pay for printing any Apocryphal books anywhere. Since then most modern editions of the Bible and reprintings of the King James Bible omit the Apocrypha section.

One may reasonably argue which books should be included in the Bible; but to say that there’s no controversy is demonstrably false. Are you ignorant or lying? My bet is ignorant.

@Zoe Brain:

Once again, you’re not arguing based on what is included in the Bible.

You’re attempting to add things in.

Too bad that didn’t work out for you, eh?

Um… so the book of Job isn’t in the Bible? Or Genesis? Some editions don’t have Revelation in. Some do. Same with Baruch – most do. Enoch, fewer.

Many reprintings of older versions of the Bible now omit the apocrypha and many newer translations and revisions have never included them at all.

There are some exceptions to this trend, however. Some editions of the Revised Standard Version of the Bible include not only the Apocrypha listed above, but also the third and fourth books of the Maccabees, and Psalm 151; the RSV Apocrypha also lists the Letter of Jeremiah (Epistle of Jeremy in the KJV) as separate from the book of Baruch, following the Orthodox tradition.

The American Bible Society lifted restrictions on the publication of Bibles with the Apocrypha in 1964. The British and Foreign Bible Society followed in 1966. The Stuttgart edition of the Vulgate (the printed edition, not most of the on-line editions), which is published by the UBS, contains the Clementine Apocrypha as well as the Epistle to the Laodiceans and Psalm 151.

Brenton’s edition of the Septuagint includes all of the Apocrypha found in the King James Bible with the exception of 2 Esdras, which was not in the Septuagint and is no longer extant in Greek. He places them in a separate section at the end of his Old Testament, following English tradition.

Perhaps you should go look at a reprint of the 1611 or 1645 version of the KJV. Or an edition of the RSV printed in the last 15 years.

@Zoe Brain:

Perhaps you should produce your source materials for examination rather than the unimpressive and uncited Wiki copy/paste excretions you’ve managed thus far.

@anticsrocks:

Ephesians 3:18-20

18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,

you are using your understanding of the law and its legalities to limit the fullness of christ’s love, a living spirit who lives in you by putting his love under the law, which scripture says christ’s love surpasses.

christ love lives in you, therfore you intimately know his love. in intimately knowing his love you know him, because god is love. that is why paul says we are no longer under the law because we are in christ who surpasses it.

the pharisees understanding of the law made them condemn healing on the sabbath as a violation of the sabbath, but christ’s love said otherwise.

again how does being gay come against christ’s love.

otherwise explain how christ can be limited by what he surpasses?

antirocks

if i asked you how murder comes against christ’s love would you refer me to the law or would explain directly that taking away a person’s life for personnal gain is not the godlove of christ(love one another as i have loved you.) how can you affirm something when you are destroying it by removing it from this earth thru a spirit that comes against love joy, peace, kindness, gentleness.etc the fruit of christ’s spirit.

@Zoe Brain:

So…the links you provided to pseudepigrapha.com don’t work.

Am I supposed to be impressed by that?

@Dumbo: Okay, I have tried very hard to treat you with respect and yet you return the favor with insults and ad hominem attacks.

You claim that the rest of “us” are not tolerant enough towards you.

Maybe, just maybe you ought to practice what you preach instead of being an over bearing, self important horse’s ass.

@feetxxxl: Okay bigfoot, grab the mouse that is attached to your computer, blow into it, without stopping, for 10 seconds.

Okay, the results are in: You need to be a bit more sober before you post the next comment.

Make sense for goodness sakes.

You asked where in the Bible it condemns homosexuality and I showed you. Now you want to conflate the argument with murder? Why? Did I at any time say that I condoned murder?

No, I didn’t think so.

apparently you think that your interpretation of the law is christ’s love, and that ephesians is of no value.

you are entitled to your understanding.

@anticsrocks:
i have to ask…….. how can your interpretation of the law be christ’s love? when even if you follow your interpretation of the law you receive no righteousness, while christ’s love is righteousness itself. how can what is not righteousness be righteousness?

@feetxxxl: Um, where did I mention law? We are talking about the Bible, I mean after all YOU brought it up.

Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

everything written requires interpretation.

Oh, well, we’re slinging Bible quotes at each other; I shall help; as a messenger and prophet unto you. Since we are avoiding the subject matter of the article which even tonight Dateline on MSNBC gives lie t0 — a veritable parade of heterosexual child molesters, grown men hot for a 13 year 0ld — and not a single gay guy could ever be found to go after any boy decoy — as ye heteros go after youth — in rapacious disregard of decency.

And now we come to Bible quoting – here, one of my favs:
Psalm 64 — 1) Here my voice, O God, in my meditation; preserve my life from fear of the enemy.
2) Hide me from the secret plots of the wicked, from the rebellion of the workers of iniquity.
3)Who sharpen their tongue like a sword; and bend their bows to shoot their arrows — bitter words.
4) That they may shoot in secret at the blameless; suddenly they shoot at him and do not fear.
5) They encourage themselves in an evil manner; they talk of laying snares secretly; they say “Who will see them?”
6) They devise iniquities: “We have perfected a shrewd scheme.” Both the inward thought and the heart of man are deep.
7) But [my] God shall shoot at them with an arrow; and suddenly they shall be wounded.

Verily I say unto you: let my people go — retract this slanderous and libelous article.
Or we shall get Biblical indeed; with an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth. Repent this evil screed, Mr. Kukis, repent.

I also like Psalm 55:

1)Give ear to my prayer, O God, and do not hide yourself from my supplication.
2)Attend to me, and hear me; I am restless in my complaint, and moan noisily,
3)Because of the voices of the enemy, because of the oppression of the wicked; for they bring down trouble upon me, and in wrath they hate me.
4) My heart is severely pained within me, and the terrors of death have fallen upon me.
5)Fearfulness and trembling have come upon me, and horror has overwhelmed me.
6)So I said, “Oh, that I had wings like a dove! I would fly away and be at rest.

Somewhere over the rainbow, from from you people.
Yea, verily, who shall quote the better Bible, and turn it to our use?
Ye are like Pharisees at the temple door, hypocrites, sinners casting stones,
and bearing false witness.
Oh, the Lord is on my side, as a test to you — treat others as you treat yourself —
recant this article.

And I suggest you all read: 1 Samuel, Chapter 17 — all of it — for I am David, and thee are Goliath, and I come with my sling and stones.

And, of course: 1 Samuel 18 (New King James Version)
1 Now when he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 2 Saul took him that day, and would not let him go home to his father’s house anymore. 3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. 4 And Jonathan took off the robe that was on him and gave it to David, with his armor, even to his sword and his bow and his belt. 5 So David went out wherever Saul sent him, and behaved wisely. And Saul set him over the men of war, and he was accepted in the sight of all the people and also in the sight of Saul’s servants. 6 Now it had happened as they were coming home, when David was returning from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women had come out of all the cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet King Saul, with tambourines, with joy, and with musical instruments. 7 So the women sang as they danced, and said: “Saul has slain his thousands, And David his ten thousands.” 8 Then Saul was very angry, and the saying displeased him; and he said, “They have ascribed to David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed only thousands. Now what more can he have but the kingdom?” 9 So Saul eyed David from that day forward. 10 And it happened on the next day that the distressing spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied inside the house. So David played music with his hand, as at other times; but there was a spear in Saul’s hand. 11 And Saul cast the spear, for he said, “I will pin David to the wall!” But David escaped his presence twice. 12 Now Saul was afraid of David, because the Lord was with him, but had departed from Saul. 13 Therefore Saul removed him from his presence, and made him his captain over a thousand; and he went out and came in before the people. 14 And David behaved wisely in all his ways, and the Lord was with him. 15 Therefore, when Saul saw that he behaved very wisely, he was afraid of him. 16 But all Israel and Judah loved David, because he went out and came in before them. 17 Then Saul said to David, “Here is my older daughter Merab; I will give her to you as a wife. Only be valiant for me, and fight the Lord’s battles.” For Saul thought, “Let my hand not be against him, but let the hand of the Philistines be against him.” 18 So David said to Saul, “Who am I, and what is my life or my father’s family in Israel, that I should be son-in-law to the king?” 19 But it happened at the time when Merab, Saul’s daughter, should have been given to David, that she was given to Adriel the Meholathite as a wife. 20 Now Michal, Saul’s daughter, loved David. And they told Saul, and the thing pleased him. 21 So Saul said, “I will give her to him, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him.” Therefore Saul said to David a second time, “You shall be my son-in-law today.” 22 And Saul commanded his servants, “Communicate with David secretly, and say, ‘Look, the king has delight in you, and all his servants love you. Now therefore, become the king’s son-in-law.’ ” 23 So Saul’s servants spoke those words in the hearing of David. And David said, “Does it seem to you a light thing to be a king’s son-in-law, seeing I am a poor and lightly esteemed man?” 24 And the servants of Saul told him, saying, “In this manner David spoke.” 25 Then Saul said, “Thus you shall say to David: ‘The king does not desire any dowry but one hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to take vengeance on the king’s enemies.’ ” But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. 26 So when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to become the king’s son-in-law. Now the days had not expired; 27 therefore David arose and went, he and his men, and killed two hundred men of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full count to the king, that he might become the king’s son-in-law. Then Saul gave him Michal his daughter as a wife. 28 Thus Saul saw and knew that the Lord was with David, and that Michal, Saul’s daughter, loved him; 29 and Saul was still more afraid of David. So Saul became David’s enemy continually. 30 Then the princes of the Philistines went out to war. And so it was, whenever they went out, that David behaved more wisely than all the servants of Saul, so that his name became highly esteemed.

Ah yes, the great gay love story of the Bible. — Oh, I’m not done, no, ye Pharisees, I am not done.

You have ventured into the territory of the boorish…

@Jim Hlavac:

Since we are avoiding the subject matter of the article which even tonight Dateline on MSNBC gives lie t0 — a veritable parade of heterosexual child molesters, grown men hot for a 13 year 0ld — and not a single gay guy could ever be found to go after any boy decoy — as ye heteros go after youth — in rapacious disregard of decency.

Not a single one could ever be found, eh? You sure about that?

Meet Louis “Bill” Conradt Jr.

Another theory shot straight to hell.

If you really want to see “rapacious disregard of decency” you don’t have to look any further than NAMBLA, an organization whose openly stated purpose is the repeal of age of consent laws and the indoctrination of young people.

You see, Jim, there are deviants in every group of society.

Their sex, or sexual persuasion, matters not.

@Jim Hlavac:

what you dont appear to understand is the fear and absolute pain that those on this site have in their accepting homosexuality as being of god. fear and pain that they been conditioned to deny.

@feetxxxl:

A couple of questions:

1) Do you believe in the God of the Bible (YHWH, Jehovah, Almighty God)?

2) If so, do you believe that God is unchanging?

@Aye:

do you mean the god of:

num15
32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

and

1 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels. 2 Some of the Pharisees asked, “Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”
3 Jesus answered them, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 5 Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

jesus being god………………………………………………….yes!

” if you know me you know the father”

@feetxxxl:

Is that a “yes” to both of my questions?

@Aye:

there is only one god…………………………………….and all scripture is god breathed. and everything written requires interpretation.

@feetxxxl:

I really do hate having to repeat myself….

Was that a “yes” to both of my questions?

i said yes…………………………………if you have a point to make please make it, or just let it go. take your games some place else……………………………………….. there is only one god.

@feetxxxl:

Okay. Yes it is to both questions then.

If you accept that God is unchanging, as scripture clearly says He is, then how can you reconcile your belief that homosexuality is not a sin when scripture clearly, and repeatedly, says that it is?

so you want to discuss scripture……………..fine. however realize that to make something a sin because of an understanding of the law without showing how it comes against christ’s love attempts to put christ under the law.

no one receives rightousness by following their interpretation of the law. while christ’s love is righteousness itself1john4, surpasses all knowledge(law and its legalites)ephesians, and is the summation of all new covenant law, romans and galatians.

paul says over and over that we are not under the law but instead spirit, christ’s love, grace. we are under what we are a slave to ……………….christ.1cor7

gen and matt 19 there is no word “only”in leaving parents and bonding with opposite sex.

lev not all prohibitions were sins of themselves or sins under the new covenant.

@feetxxxl:

Again, you’re failing to answer the questions posed to you.

Scripture clearly, and repeatedly, says that homosexuality is a sin. It’s not equivocal. There’s no gray area.

It’s plainly stated.

Since we both agree that God is unchanging, then His opinion of homosexuality now is the same as it was then.