The Mosque issue isn’t going away and it just got more interesting. Apparently Steve Emerson, Executive Director of The Investigative Project on Terrorism (a large storehouse of archival data and intelligence on Islamic and Middle Eastern terrorist groups), has unearthed hours of audio in which Imam Rauf sounds not so moderate after all. The audio hasn’t been released yet, nor the context, but from the sounds of it….the context won’t matter a whole lot:
Steve Emerson has unearthed 13 hours of audio tape of Imam Rauf. Emerson and his team of investigators has spent the past four weeks going through the newly found material. Rauf is a “radical extremist cleric who cloaks himself in sheep’s clothing.”
Among the shocking revelations Emerson’s team will reveal next week — they found Rauf:
Defending wahhabism – a puritanical version of Islam that governs Saudi Arabia
Calling for the elimination of Israel by claiming a one-nation state, meaning no more Jewish State.
Defending Bin Laden’s violence
Ace takes Obama to task for his support of the Imam and the Mosque:
Remember: You — Obama and the MFM — went out a limb to vouch for this guy, putting the whole of your credibility and judgment behind the proposition that he is a well-meaning, peaceful moderate and you’d have to be crazy to think otherwise.
~~~We know the first, second, and last defense that will be screamed by the left: B-b-but Bush said he was moderate….!
Yeah? And? Bush didn’t stake his political future on the man’s purported “moderation,” either.
Let Me Repeat: Obama and the MFM staked the entirety of their credibility and judgment on the assertion that this was a moderate man interested only in peace, and of course in no way a supporter of terrorism, and anyone who suspected otherwise was an ignorant bigot with a heart full of hatred.
So let’s see. Let’s see.
Let’s see whose judgment was sound and whose judgment was really full of ignorance and hatred — hatred for the concerns of their fellow Americans.
You can hear Emerson on the Bill Bennett show earlier this week:
[audio:http://media.townhall.com/townhall/bennett/SteveEmerson2.mp3]Let the fireworks begin.
See author page
Oh my… really now, Donald. Portraying yourself as “the victim” really isn’t a becoming sight, guy. May I remind you of just how this started?
In your comment #7 you were impatiently frothing at the bit to say “I told you so… As I pointed out, if Emerson found evidence that Sufi Rauf was actually a Wahhabi extremist in disguise, it would prove that Rauf – not Islam – was a bad guy.
Then in your comment #19, you got all excited thinking you found a new, eloquent voice to echo your all of Islam is an enemy sentiments. But oops… that didn’t turn out well either. Especially when you accused me of misrepresenting that’s exactly your stand.
Thus I drag out the Bly archives for you. Which, in your own words confirm that yup… all of Islam is the enemy, and advocates for overthrow of the US government.
Out of all that, you derive that:
1: I attributed comments to you that were not yours, when the entire comment I linked to was addressed *only* to you, and taking you to task for your 1st Amendment rewrite? and…
2: I made you the whipping boy of bigotry? 😆 Actually, Donald, the comments I used as examples of bigotry when talking to you in that past linked thread were far worse than yours. Yours is more subtle. But as you like to say, if the shoe fits….
I’m not figuring that’s much of an insult since you really are looking forward to your ‘phobe badge.
You’ll enjoy Skookum. Eat, drink and be merry. Hopefully you’ll find other subjects to chit chat on in that time.
One last thing.
I said that if it had no ties in funding or support from Wahhabist or Rev Iran sources that I had no problem with it.
I never said that I supported it.
Personally speaking. At times, I feel that America should pass a Constitutional Amendment stating that no Mosque shall be built on our lands until Saudi Arabia opens their lands to other religions.
I get so tired of Saudis and especially the Saudi Royalty preaching tolerance to us when they are the most intolerant group of peoples on the planet.
Allow them to build secret halls as are allowed in Saudi Arabia. But nothing more.
Saudi Arabia should be pushed in exactly the same way that they are pushing other.
@Mata…. I never said that the Supreme Court ruled on the Communist party as a “clear and present danger”… What you saw was a typo.
It should have read “IF”… not it.
Had dinner with Skookum last night… It was a delightful experience with one exception. As we were turning in to the farm where Skookum was working on some horses, a rather large pick-up truck rear-ended my wife’s brand new car. Less that 500 miles on the beast, we hadn’t even gotten our plates yet. My wife was in tears but everyone was okay.
Dinner with Skookum and the great conversation took the accident off of both our minds. Skookum has some amazing talents. He had my wife hold out her arm, he then placed a hand on each side about 2 1/2 inches from her forearm. He slowly moved his hands, never touching her arm, up then down the length from her elbow to her wrist.
My wife described the feeling of heat permeating her forearm, it was an amazing experience. Reminded me of Karate Kid.
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion
says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”
The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”
Replies the scorpion: “Its my nature…”
DONALD bly, hi , I like that story, AND the moral of the story is;
DONT buy any frog with a scorpion on top, bye
Question: how can you tell the difference?? Or are we supposed to just take it all on “faith” that “these” muslims, and this mosque, and this imam, are not like some of the “others” who lived among us as our neighbors..while plotting to cut our necks? Or help in some way towards that cause…even as the good people who go there to pray are unaware. There is no doubt…most muslims don’t follow the same extremist code…despite the fact that it’s pushed HEAVILY by well funded people here …and states like S.A. How do you know? And if you can’t know..for sure…then the only thing you can do is to try and take precautions best you can to protect the ‘larger’ population. Post 9/11, we have lost some of our freedoms in order to protect the larger whole. Why? We aren’t “all” terrorists? Not all terrorists use hi-jacking or planes to commit their crimes? The whole point IS to catch us off-guard in someway. Somewhere we are NOT looking for it. While we have to protect ourselves against everything. Any reasonable person would understand “why” they have to go through more stringent security before getting on a plane..EVEN THOUGH they are not remotely, nor look like nor act like a isolated “terrorist”.
The man who owned the ME restaurant that my wife and friends and I used to frequent…talk with him, etc. Gone. Material support for terrorism (money, etc.). He was connected with the travel agency/news stand on the corner (also gone). The guy that sold ice cream to the kids…gone. Turns out all these “nice” mulsims…OUR NEIGHBORS..who lived next to us, who shared bread with us, and smiled at us…and attended the local mosque, were at the same time…using that trust to betray us. So, given that, I ask again…how can you or anyone else possibly know the difference?…who to trust? Who not to trust? Or how much we can trust. Given the deception and it’s purpose..nobody can know. How much “freedom” are you willing to give up ..in order to reduce the chance of another 9/11 happening again? Would you…stand in line for an hour or more? Be searched? Have your luggage gone through? How about have your phone conversations listened into if you call a known terrorist location overseas? Good muslims (and anybody who even remotely looks like one) are being searched and inconvenienced everyday. A plane was stopped just recently because somebody thought something was suspicious and called it in and the FBI ended up walking a Pakistani couple off the plane, searching them, and then releasing them, delaying the flight. They don’t like it..we don’t like it…but we all understand “why” it’s necessary.
NYC has been, and “is” a target…and one “should” have more than a passing concern in these areas…if recent past events are not surely a reminder that good, neighborly good, mild mannered muslims can turn out to be the ones betraying us. There are constant reminders on subways, airports etc. “if you see something, say something”, long lines, random searches, etc. I won’t even mention the imam in Queens, that everyone defended, and spoke to his honor and his commitment to fighting extremism, his long time in the community, etc., getting deported for lieing to FBI to cover for a would-be bomber that could have killed hundreds if not thousands of people and created havoc and financial damage that would be unrecoverable for a long time. Our neighbors! Well respected, long standing “Americans”….stabbing us ALL (good muslims included) in the back. So, I ask again…how do you tell the difference…other than reading the names off the knives in your back? And how do “we” protect ourselves while still maintaining our dignity and sense of freedom…who we are…while doing so?
There are apparently plenty of muslims just as opposed to this new location for this already divisive mosque/community center as well for the same reasons..because given the circumstances…it’s just going to make things harder for them in the current environment we all live in as well. What do we call them? Killers of religious freedom? Racists? Ignorant ? Or Islamaphobic?
And where was your cry for “Freedom of Religion” when they refused to give permits to rebuild the Greek Orthodox Church that was destroyed on 9/11?
I’ll keep my head on swivel around here thank you very much just like anybody else will do if they want to stay alive…including our fellow good muslims who also die at the hands of these betrayers. Because that’s the only real defense any of us have. And I’m speaking as someone who carries the scars from previous experience, as well as numerous close calls. You can call that anything you like (Islamaphobia, etc). I just call it common sense and trying to stay alive.
No Bees… the moral of the story is … Don’t buy a scorpion with a frog underneath it!
DONALD BLY, YES you are right, I think; WHEN did you read that you are right?
bye
@Bees…. It’s been a while… normally I just get called a bigot and an Islamophobe. Mostly by those that can’t conceive of the idea that a scorpion might just stay true to its nature even if it is talking sweet. Which I’m happy to say are a minority.
Hey guys…This is worthy of your perusal. He looks at the changing attitudes Americans have for Moslems. (With graphs!)
Excerpt:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LH17Ak01.html
PATVANN: hi, you can dig up the good links ones who are unexpected, what I,
see is who can read minds, THEREFOR, why take a chance on the name of tolerance, if It’s only on our side;
THEY have,nt prove anything that they are tolerant yet, THAN we cannot take their side as tolerant.
the next move is their own: TOLERANT OR NOT TOLERANT,THAT is the QUESTION,
AND being in their position to influence their followers, they are oblige to show AMERICANS; who
spill their blood for the freedom including their FREEDOM; what
they represent and who they are, because they are the one who started, that, they are the one responsible for the anger from the ever tolerant AMERICAN. for not seeing like real AMERICANS
I don’t subscribe to the theory of tolerance. That speaks to the underlying tension that is assumed by the need for said tolerance. If cultures or peoples can not accept one another, there will never be peace.
Acceptance of differences is the key.
Tolerance is a liberal fallacy. A liberal utopian fantasy.
@Dawood Khan
“Feared, or respected? I say, why not both?”
Putting a healthy fear in the hearts of one’s enemy is paramount.
We should be able to earn the respect of the masses as well.
The problem is that our critics within and without trump up and shout to the top of the mountains our failures and excesses and remain silent on the good that we do.
No one mentions that our Navy patrols the seas at a cost of nothing. This has not always been the case in the history of our planet. Most powers have patrolled the sea lanes at the expense of others. Britain is the only country who can claim to have done anything near to the service that we do in that regard and even they pale in comparison.
America and Americans give more to the world in the form of Charity and Aid Packages than any other Nation in history. I believe that Americans give more to charity than over half of Europe.
We have our excesses. We have our failings. We also have our excellent aspects and extraordinary achievements as a Nation.
America being in power and being the leader of the European Nations is the cause of the end of incessant global wars. While Europe was the power of the land, there were constant wars in Europe that spread out to the globe and affects all and sundry. The American projection of strength over the world has halted their constant strife. Though, no European will admit to this.
Since the rise of America as THE World Power, there have been no global wars and there have been no major wars between the European Powers. Europe has been at war either amongst themselves or with others since the time of Alexander.
Only since the rise of America after World War II have they been at peace. Relative peace.
That would not have been possible without America.
Dawood Kahn: hi, TO think TOLERANCE, it’s to leave the responsability to them to back up from the building and they said, it’s too late ,too much involved, well what is involved on this side,
Is far more, than they can never estimated: they knew to keep a low profile from the beginning, they knew of the sensitivity of the location, yet they went ahead : they had all the advices to stop ,
SO they are to blame for the anger directed at them, they produce hatefull division among the people, they own the problem. they are the one to repair it.
@Dawood Khan:
Wouldn’t tolerance be a necessary precursor to acceptance?
@ILOVEBEESWARZONE
Actualy, it goes deeper, and into somthing within the American pshyche that many pinheads in DC, and in other countries fail to remember.
With the Freedom of Speech, comes the Freedom to tell you ‘you are WRONG’! With Freedom of Religion, comes my RIGHT to disagree with your religion.
Somehow the PC crowd tried to create a Right not to be offended by anyone…yet I don’t see that Right anywhere in the Constitution.
With your Freedom, comes my Freedom and Right to be an Asshole, and we Americans are getting angry enough to once more… become just that.
During WWII we plain lost our temper, and the world saw true total war being waged…
Right after 9/11, the world was Afriad we would once again loose our Temper, and folks like Khadafi and others caved…. but we used restraint… so the world no longer believes we have the cojones to loose our temper…. they mistake forbearence, for a lack of spirit.
They are wrong…
@Aye… 71
Speaking for myself? Why would I want to accept the current incarnation of Islam? With the way it treats women, and gays, its Sharia law, and the way it does NOT support Freedom of Religion of conscience?
Thus, if I am not going to accept this barbaic philisophical system, why in the heck should I be full of “tolerance” for it?
@Romeo13:
I was thinking in broader terms, not about the Islam issue specifically.
Any sort of change or new set of circumstances occurs, especially change we don’t like, is dealt with in stages. I see tolerance as being one of the primary steps in the process, acceptance coming later.
As to the Islam issue, not all practitioners of the religion treat women and gays in the fashion that you seem to be alluding to. Not all practitioners prescribe to virulent/violent Sharia law.
Just as not all Christian sects are the same in their beliefs or religious observances.
I can “tolerate” and “accept” moderate Muslims while drawing a clear line of resistance and rejection when it comes to the radical or extreme adherents.
But to the PC crowd TOLERANCE is an end unto itself…
It’s ignorant. At it’s base, it is bigotry. It’s basically a statement that though we’ll never like it, we’ll pretend we do. It’s hypocrisy in its basest form.
Islam is not a horrible religion. It has beauty. It does. You’ll have to either study it or trust me. The Egyptian form of Islam so captivated me at one time that I nearly converted. And I’m one of the most blasphemous sons of bitches that you will ever [EVER] meet.
The people of Islam are mostly nice. They’re hospitable. They take hospitality to extremes. I’ve many Muslim friends. They’re fearful of both the extremists and of us. It’s probably a strange place to be for them.
Don’t ever make the mistake of thinking that all Muslims accept or think that violence is the norm. Islamic history is no different than the history of the West. Episodes of violence and war interrupted by periods of peace and tranquility. We are all guilty of this.
It’s not Islam. It’s the beast within. Just as the Inquisition and similar episodes of WEstern/Christian history were full of inhumanity interrupted by periods of tranquility and brotherly love and transcendence.
We are all, after all, but human…
@Aye 74
How? Is there some secret Moderate Moslem Handshake I don’t know about? Please tell me how you can tell a moderate from a Jihadist… Becasue when I was in the Mid East I sure could not tell them apart… unless the guns happened to be pointed at me.
And the key point is that ISLAM is not changing… Islamic teachings remain the same, but Moderate Moslems are like Cafeteria Catholics (who are pro abortion). They are not following all the dictates of their relgion is they are moderate.
And that, is the problem.
So… Where are Steve Emerson’s Imam Rauf tapes?
If you Google “Steve Emerson” Imam Rauf tapes, you’ll now find 28 pages of links to heated discussion of their outrageous content–even though no tapes or specifics about what’s on them have yet appeared.
ROMEO 13: I had 2 comment for you and it did not pass, so I’m tired , and I just wil
say, that I agree with what you said, that IT’s deeper, and right fully so. bye
GREG ,I say, they might have been stop for public view, by friends on higher ground. bye
WHAT else.
@Greg
Be careful what you wish for.
We on the right have learned well how “things work” in the modern media age.
-Notice how quiet Rauf and his excuse-makers on the left are. If YOU were accused of lies that called into question everything you’ve worked for in the past 9 years, would you remain this quiet?
If you were as widely read, and economically vulnerable as Emerson and Geller are, would you put out a lie?
The fish has bit the bait, and the setting of the hook can wait. They are waiting for the “fish” to swallow the bait, and wiggle the line.
@Patvann
Yep, they are playing for time, trying to ride out the News Cycle.
@Patvan, #80: “If YOU were accused of lies that called into question everything you’ve worked for in the past 9 years, would you remain this quiet?”
It’s hard to respond intelligently to statements an accuser claims you’ve made, when he won’t even tell you what those statements are.
What I wish to know is what the guy said. If I knew I might form some opinion about it. Until then, I’ll be forming an opinion about Steve Emerson and how he seems to operate.
@Greg
You have GOT to be kidding me.
You sit there, religiously checking in on this site, hearing about who has what “evidence” that we on the dreaded “right’ have in store for you, and you do NOTHING to educate yourself.
Instead you come back and blindly lash out, while steeped in ignorance.
You never googled, yet you now sit there and bitch.
I’m sorry, man, but even the BEST (or worse) of my liberal foils can fucking GOOGLE shit.
THIS is why we treat you with such distain. WE DO YOUR FUCKING RESEARCH FOR YOU!!!!!! But at the same time find ourselves defending some goddamn regurgiitated pap HANDED to you…which you so faithfully repeat here.
Here, Google this, you lazy POS:
Atlas Shrugs
(i just tried every combination of Emerson tapes/recordings/mosque, and 10 other variable versions and the pertanant site came up. I tested google, bing, and yahoo, so don’t fuck with me. But I just handed you the short way.)
The worse part is that I know damn well that you will NOT read more than one damn paragragh, and that you will the come back here and make some sort of stoopid judgement based on it. READ FOR ONE DAMN HOUR ON ONE FREAKIN SITE, YOU WILLFULLY STOOPID LEFTIST.
GOD how I dispise the willfully stupid.
@Greg
Ya know what really sux about being a “wingnut”…
I’m feeling guilty for not knowing if you are 22 or 72. If you are closer to the later, and are actually THAT unaware of the modern methods of information-gathering, I will back off and devote the time nesssary to teach you the in and outs of the internet… With no ill regard what-so-ever.
I was born in 1961.
Dc: hi, I hope you like a bit of humor here, YOU came in after DONALD BLY gave the story of the FROG and SCORPION; SO, you start your comment with this”how can you tel the difference”?
SO I could’nt resist it,here I say,to continiue your question “there is one who’s on top,
AND one under. bye
SOMETIMES, I look on the banner right, where the comments are from each person,
AND more than you would think, there is a follow up from one to 2or more first few words of each , and it come,realy very funny, many times, check it up.
I’m uncertain what “information” I’m supposed to have so easily gathered.
Is there a transcript of Emerson’s tapes out there somewhere that I’ve missed? I’m not particularly inept at digging information out of the internet, but haven’t been able to find anything of the sort.
I don’t form opinions based on out of context comments. Something like this, I presume, is supposed to be enough to lead me to a conclusion about Rauf:
It isn’t. I understand that the statement has a larger context. I understand that–however uncomfortable such a statement makes me feel–from the viewpoint of the Muslim world, it might be seen as having some basis in reality. It’s not necessarily “anti-US, jihadist rhetoric” just because it’s critical of a past U.S. policy, or just because Pamela Geller wishes to characterize it as such.
If incriminating sound files or transcripts ever come to light I’ll give them every consideration. Until then, I’ll assume they’re being kept in a shoebox somewhere, possibly along with the Whitey tape.
If Emerson has really got something, he should put it out there and resolve any confusion about what Rauf really is. A single clear statement where Rauf calls for the elimination of Israel would be enough to do the trick for me. People are claiming Emerson has got that.
There’s enough incriminating past statements by Rauf and as of this week his wife Kahn to question their motives. But… sometimes you don’t get it spoon fed to you. I’ve had to sit through hours and hours of video of Center for American Progress seminars and speeches that it would numb your mind… no transcripts… but ultimately IN THEIR OWN WORDS… statements that would shock most Americans, strategies, tactics, etc… but… it is THEIR OWN WORDS… no nice tidy transcript…
Greg, get off your ass and put in some sweat! Video is an amazing medium but unfortunately… you just can’t do a quick search of some text and get to the goods. But… you can’t dispute words out of their mouth like you can dispute the veracity of text on a page.
What’s sad Greg, is that that particular quote isn’t enough for you to determine that he ain’t what he claims to be, unless you have no ability whatsoever to parse out that statement.
The “basis” you have convinced yourself to look for isn’t there.
Why? Two things spring to mind:
1. It is true that in it’s entire history America has killed more NON Moslems than AQ has. That fact has NOTHING to do with anything going on in regards to the West confronting radical Islam today, or in the past. Islam has killed over 100 million in it’s history…Does he (or you) wanna go there?
2. It is a bold-face and provable lie that America (and the rest of those who participated in those sanctions) killed 1/2 a million Iraqi children during the 90’s. The “context” in this matter is that Saddam diverted money and supplies that would have helped those children….Regardless, the number was never close to his claim.
Yet you want to give him the benefit of the doubt…waiting for some “context’….
What kind of context? Explore it for us!
I agree with Patvann on the historical reading; and I agree with Greg on the Rauf statement as non-proof of any radical ties to Islamic terrorism and militant sympathizing.
What Rauf has been “caught” saying thus far is hardly alarmist beliefs. If you never saw his name associated with the sentence(s), you could just as well see a pacifist multiculturalist liberal or an isolationist/non-interventionist conservative echo the same type of criticism of the United States on foreign policy, “creating more terrorists”, “propping up dictatorships”, etc. How is his historical opinion on Hiroshima and Dresden any different than one held by an anti-war pacifist? How many of them also blame the U.S. for sanctions rather than Saddam that led to “the death of half a million Iraqi children”? During the 1st Gulf War, we intentionally destroyed the Iraqi water supply and then denied Iraqis materials needed to rebuild the supply and purify the water system. Thousands were denied clean water and waterborne illnesses became epidemic. According to the WHO and Unicef reports, over a million Iraqis died as a result, half of which were Iraqi children under 5 yrs old. I hold Saddam accountable. According to Islamic law, poisoning the water supply amounts to terrorism and killing civilians and children in warfare is strictly forbidden (in the views of “moderates” and “peaceful” Muslims who do condemn terrorism from those they say “hijack their religion”). It’s why al Qaeda has to look to Qutb and Taymiyyah to find justification for acts of terrorism that is condemned by most of the Islamic world.
We don’t like liberal opinion and their perceptions of history drives us nuts. But political differences should not be confused with radical Islam and alignment with Islamic terrorism; at least no more than we’d hold any liberal accountable for giving aid and comfort to the enemies of our country. 😉
There is 1400 years of Islamic history where installing Islam is first attempted peacefully and when that doesn’t work… by the sword. That’s just Islam’s history… I don’t expect that ideology to make a 180 from its past practices.
@Donald Bly, #91: “There is 1400 years of Islamic history where installing Islam is first attempted peacefully and when that doesn’t work… by the sword.”
Christianity has a very similar history. People simply tend to view the history of their own religion and culture in a more favorable light.
What might the indigenous people of North, South, and Meso-America tell us about the arrival of Christianity with the European invaders?
The same thing was true across much of the world during the era of European colonial expansion.
If you go back earlier, there were the Crusades; earlier still, Christianity was initially spread across Europe at the point of a sword. The forced conversion of entire populations is a big part of the story.
As with Islam, Christianity also has a long, bloody history of violent conflict within its own context. The wars and violence between European Catholics and Protestants must have seemed endless.
Yes Greg… I am well aware of the despicable acts of the Catholic Church in the early days of Christianity… however, despite the failure of the early Christian Church to actually follow Christ’s doctrine, the written doctrine of Christianity NEVER advocates for the kind of behavior and actions in which the Catholic Church engaged. The early institutions of Christianity, IE the Catholic Church failed miserably, they became corrupted by those that sought power and wealth at the expense of those that truly sought to follow Christ’s message. Hell.. it used to be a capital offense for a layperson to even own a bible. And the Bible itself, New Testament, is a construct of the Council of Nicea and the Emperor Constantine. The majority of the “books” that make up the Bible were written by Paul, which makes much of the doctrine of the Bible the doctrine of Paul, not Christ.
I’m not a Paulist… I look only to the words, and deeds and teachings of Christ. Very much in the vein of Thomas Jefferson, who compiled only Christ’s words in a volume. Paul claims to be a Apostle, then uses his own words and those of his traveling companion to justify that claim.
The Crusades, were a response to the conquest of previously Christian lands by Islam, and the Islamic invasion into Europe through Spain.
The inquisition… absolutely no excuse for such evil.
You will find my objections are centered around WRITTEN DOCTRINE. And even though I feel that Paul co-opted Christianity, the NEW TESTAMENT does not advocate for violence or forced conversion.