The new rules of fighting a war….Obama style, via George F. Will: (h/t The Captain’s Journal)
… occasionally there are riveting communications, such as a recent e-mail from a noncommissioned officer (NCO) serving in Afghanistan. He explains why the rules of engagement for U.S. troops are “too prohibitive for coalition forces to achieve sustained tactical successes.”
Receiving mortar fire during an overnight mission, his unit called for a 155mm howitzer illumination round to be fired to reveal the enemy’s location. The request was rejected “on the grounds that it may cause collateral damage.” The NCO says that the only thing that comes down from an illumination round is a canister, and the likelihood of it hitting someone or something was akin to that of being struck by lightning.
Returning from a mission, his unit took casualties from an improvised explosive device that the unit knew had been placed no more than an hour earlier. “There were villagers laughing at the U.S. casualties” and “two suspicious individuals were seen fleeing the scene and entering a home.” U.S. forces “are no longer allowed to search homes without Afghan National Security Forces personnel present.” But when his unit asked Afghan police to search the house, the police refused on the grounds that the people in the house “are good people.”
On another mission, some Afghan adults ran off with their children immediately before the NCO’s unit came under heavy small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), and the unit asked for artillery fire on the enemy position. The response was a question: Where is the nearest civilian structure? “Judging distances,” the NCO writes dryly, “can be difficult when bullets and RPGs are flying over your head.” When the artillery support was denied because of fear of collateral damage, the unit asked for a “smoke mission” — like an illumination round; only the canister falls to earth — “to conceal our movement as we planned to flank and destroy the enemy.” This request was granted — but because of fear of collateral damage, the round was deliberately fired one kilometer off the requested site, making “the smoke mission useless and leaving us to fend for ourselves.”
The NCO is the backbone of our nations military. They don’t deal with the politics of the upper ranks, they operate to achieve the mission and keep their men save. They are on the ground, on the front lines with their troops. They see it all….and when they are seeing what the NCO wrote about above you just have to know we have already lost Afghanistan.
Obama came into office telling us that we were fighting the wrong war in Iraq…Afghanistan is the real threat. But here we are on the verge of it becoming such a quagmire of no progress and body bags that we will be forced to leave in failure
Because of our troops, one great General, and one great President…we won the war in Iraq. A new President now sits in power and he is ensuring our failure in the one place he said we needed to win at.
Unbelievable.
See author page
I was just on another site where several Afghanistan vets were complaining of the very thing you posted about.
It seems McChrystal has put rules in place that are more concerned with protecting civilians than our own soldiers.
A few gems from a slobbering Newsweek (newsweak?) article.
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/09/25/mcchrystal-s-war.html
“He is a student of what he calls “counterinsurgency math.” If you encounter 10 Taliban members and kill two, he says, you don’t have eight remaining enemies. You have more like 20: the friends and relatives of the two you killed.”
” Reading about the struggles for national liberation in Indochina from the 1950s through the Vietnam War, McChrystal became fascinated by the challenges of counterinsurgency. He learned that putting down a guerrilla movement was impossible without winning the support of the local population. His convictions were reinforced by his experience running black ops in Iraq and Afghanistan.”
Remeber the above as it is behind all that he does.
Here is another doozy
“McChrystal immediately decreed that the ISAF troops were going to learn how to get along with the local population. It took less than a week for him to start to make his point. He was part of a convoy blasting through city streets at 60mph when the speed limit was 20mph. The soldiers were driving heavily armored vehicles right down the middle of the road, pointing their weapons at civilian vehicles, forcing them to the side. When the convoy stopped, McChrystal took aside the commander and dressed him down. “This is exactly the way you create the ugly ISAF,” he said in a low but cold tone. He issued a directive: from then on, all ISAF forces would obey local driving laws. (More difficult, he tried to set an example by not wearing body armor. “The Afghans don’t wear body armor,” he would say, but he ran into grumbling and resistance.)”
McChrystal needs to be fired. I urge you to learn about his hearts and minds strategy and you will see why he values the lives of Afghany civilians more than our soldiers. I now see why he was put in charge.
From Newsweek McChystal interview/article 09.
Lately, as commander of the war in Afghanistan, he has become a kind of Zen warrior, preaching that often “the shot you don’t fire is more important than the one you do.” He is a student of what he calls “counterinsurgency math.” If you encounter 10 Taliban members and kill two, he says, you don’t have eight remaining enemies. You have more like 20: the friends and relatives of the two you killed.
I can’t remember if it’s Carafano or Califano, but, he was on FOX this morning talking about the “selective leaks” folks in the WH send out in an effort to appear tough. He also said the blustering about the drone attacks in Pakistan plays right into the enemies hands because it will drive a wedge between our efforts and the Pakistanis.
The deadline harms our efforts with the Pakis because they won’t put much of an effort into helping us because, we are leaving and they will be stuck with the Taliban.
Looks like McChrystal stepped on a hornets nest:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/22/stanley-mcchrystal-apologises-rolling-stone
It’s telling that McChrystal kicked Michael Yon out of Afghanistan.
Please understand this, the pretender-n-theif, the one pretending to be our president while theiving hard working folks out of their inheritence, wealth and freedoms said as plain as the lieing mouth on his face that when the tough gets going he’ll side with the muslims, his words not mine. We all should be praying for the safety of our finest. We owe them nothing less. I am a disabled Marine veteran and I served from Nixon admin. to G.W. and I believe this one statement made by this pretender-n-theif should have been an eye-opener for anyone who still thinks our finest deserve the best and should be led by the brightest minds this country has to offer. This supposed CnC is at best a fraud and a traitor to the entire Nation. One day he is going to “get his” as the saying goes and the entire world will be a better place for it. I fear this administration for the one and only time since I left serving my fellow countrymen/ladies to the younger, stronger and more agile fighting prowless of all time. Never in my life have I ever feared for our finest like I do today when I read reports such as this. I will continue to pray daily for their safety and sucess even though this admin. has tied their hands behind their backs I still think they are capable of much ruin and destruction upon our enemies. I just wish someone up there in this admin. had the courage as do these fine examples of an American fighting spirit to turn them loose upon the devils desquising as godly men. Obama and the muslims are both frauds to humanity.
@Average Infidel:
Thank you for your service and contribution to all the readers here at FA!
The hand writting was on the wall in Vietnam when the rules were changed that we couldn’t shoot unless the VC shot first. It is going to end the same way in Afghanistan using this same mentality. Stupidity compounded by idiocy produces nothing but more stupidity.
When you have a raghead PUTUS and we are fighting ragheads, just do the math. The ROE are causing more US casualties than are saving innocent Afgan lives as many of the enemy diguise themselves as civilians. My opinion is if you hang around with the enemy, you are the enemy. There also too many JAG officers on the battlefield. Havn’t met one yet that knows shit from Shinola about fighting a war. War cannot be fought with surgical precision. Collateral damage though unfortunate is a better alternative than having a loss of life on our side. When our troops call for arty or air support, its is because they need it to survive. Give it to them! Would like to be a fly on the wall when Gen McChrystal has that meeting at the White House. Think he has had enough of Obama’s BS. Hope he tells thePOTUS to go fuck himself while handing him his retirement papers.
I AM so angry again, speechless and powerless to help the soldiers who are made to fight, on a stupid strategy, from a sickminded general, from the beginning of his strategy; when we know the ennemies are whole familys unit, and whole tribes unit helping their warriors to win and planting bombs by their childrens: THIS is enough to justified our soldiers to AIM and blast them out,before asking any moral questions; HOW many of ours ended their life in bloody encounters of their bombs; this should not be discarded as done, but included in a TOP COMMANDER STRATEGY.
November of 2012 can’t come quick enough. To all of you who stayed home in November of 2008 on the grounds that McCain would not have been any different, is this Zero what you had in mind?
CURT: hi, WHY does my 2 last comments go in the non approval filter, i was saying the truth about the AFGHANISTAN war. bye
@John Cooper:
Michael Yon’s been traveling the path of Charles Johnson these days, and has been falling out of favor with some folk.
Obama does not make the ROE. If you think he does you are an idiot.
JOHN RYAN: IS’nt it true, that theCOMMANDER IN CHIEF is responsible for the war strategy decisions
EVEN if it’s apply by the MILITARY COMMANDER.? bye 🙄
Prediction… Obama, feelings hurt over McChrystal pointing out that the CiC is incompetent will fire McChrystal. It will have nothing to do with McChrystal’s ability or inability to command.
The Dismantler in Chief May have an ulterior motive here and he is likely dreaming of the “glory” days when the left had our returning troops from Viet-Nam disrespected and demoralized. He longs for the day when our Men and women in the Armed Forces will be branded “losers” again by the MSM. This plan is in place to justify massive defense cuts in the near future with the goal of complete dismantlement of our entire world defense umbrella. BTW, he has already dismantled our entire Space program ceding the cosmos to Russia and the Peoples Republic of China. Need more examples of Dismantlement?
@ ilovebeeswarzone
Rules of engagement are defined by the Theatre CinC, and generally approved by the Joint Chiefs. But we shouldn’t fool ourselves, every president, republican or democrat, puts the commanders in place that reflect their views. So yes, ultimately the rules of engagement in Afghanistan are the policies of the Obama Administration, no matter how much John Ryan would like to pawn it off on McChrystal.
It may not be a popular view, but wars are won by destroying the enemies desire or ability to wage war. We will never have that as a goal as long as Obama is in the White House. My heart goes out to my brothers and sisters in the military.
Actually, ROE are irrelevent. We don’t live there and it certainly isn’t our country. If I were an Afghani, I’d be fighting us, too. I spent 25 years defending the Constitution of the United States and I can’t see why anyone but an Afghani thinks they should be making decisions there. If the roles were reversed, I really wouldn’t care WHY someone was occupying my country. I would only care that they WERE.
We kicked their butts, threw the Taliban out of power, and tried to help re-build. It is time to leave before we kill more people that don’t need to be killed. Why is the fate of our nation, which survived a civil and two world wars, tied to the fight in Afghanistan?
I think every American should re-visit our history and remember that we should stay out of other people’s business. Read what our Founding Fathers thought about becoming involved with other nations and then think a bit.
Very Respectfully,
Robin
AQUA: thank you, I knew it because the last time, a fews months ago, on a smilar post, somone
point it out and was not challenge, so it was my turn to say it, and you reenforce it. bye 🙄
ROBIN: hi, the MIlitary don’t kill for the fun of it,and don’t kill civilians as you know, having been in warzone; they followed the order to go there clean up the dirt, they don’t need to be force on the ROE either, they do what they have to do,and they are not street bullys either, so the COMMANDER dont have to treat them as ingnorants who will not followed their discipline rules, they are the one in front of the ennemies and they are able to swiftly eradicate it; not telling them,
WAIT and think, because in front of a ennemy they can think faster,and not waiting the split second that will kill them. and why are they being refuse AIR SUPPORT?, thoses planes should be in front of them not in the back waiting to be called on; thoses minutes are deadly. bye
“Prediction… Obama, feelings hurt over McChrystal pointing out that the CiC is incompetent will fire McChrystal. It will have nothing to do with McChrystal’s ability or inability to command.”
The ability to command becomes pretty much irrelevant if respect for the chain of command is lost. McChrystal seems to have forgotten that, and there also seems to be an errosion of confidence setting in from McChrystal on down. If McChrystal goes, it won’t be because of anything so petty as “hurt feelings”.
Here’s the Rolling Stone article, The Runaway General.
This article worries the hell out of me. Particularly the comments from the soldiers. There’s a disturbing similarity to the attitude I remember around me in during my year in Vietnam. The same sense of a growing disconnect between the reality on the ground and the orders coming from above. Afghanistan has a well-deserved, centuries-old reputation. This doesn’t bode well.
I thought he did, (or had some say, at least))………..wait, did you call me an idiot? 😯
The military is responsible for the specifics of rules of engagement. The specifics are established to reconcile military activities and on-the-ground realities with the Commander in Chief’s policy objectives. The Commander in Chief can be faulted to whatever extent his policy objectives are faulty, or to whatever extent he overrides the judgements of military commanders and in so doing produces negative consequences for his objectives and/or for our troops.
I haven’t seen anything suggesting that Obama is micromanaging the conduct of the U.S. military. He doesn’t consider himself a general. If someone has evidence to the contrary, I’d be interested in hear what it is.
GREG: you might have some truth there. bye 🙄
At best obama is at fault for picking a complete idiot and puting him in charge
At worst he is to blame for undermining our efforts to win.
Robin, you sound like an anti-American lefty. We are occupying? Hardly.
Ummm Robin, where did 9/11 get planned? Who was it planned by?
Why do you not understand the importance of denying Afghanistan to the enemy? You sound like one of those derranged ron paul morons.
HARD RIGHT: hi, I just read that ‘MCCRYSTAL submit his resignation to the president,
Beez. If that is true I PRAY we get someone to replace him who isn’t a PC idiot like McChrystal.
HARD RIGHT: Who ever will be for sure removing the ROE,”HOPFULLY” but the news did not affirm that he would terminate instantly or a few months. and if OBAMA is accepting or not, maybe tomorow, will have more, it was also on CNN,as i did not see that. bye 🙄
Good points Beez. McChrystal needs to be removed for the sake of our soldiers. The man is out of touch with reality and a big part of his mission. That part is to win with as few casualties on our side as possible.
HARD RIGHT: I should also mention, some AGHAN send a message that he hope the prez dont fire him, he is the best who understand the people. bye
Hard Right,
It must be tough going through life so bitter and angry that you have to call people names in order to feel better about yourself.
I am a retired Army major that understands history. NO ONE has ever pacified Afghanistan and we aren’t going to be the first. We’ve already killed or captured most of the Al Quida leaders. Personally, I have never held the Taliban’s refusal to hand over Bin Laden against them. As disgusting as Al Quida is, the Taliban could not surrender to U.S. demands and continued to call themselves men. It kind of reminds me of the old “Never give an order you know won’t be obeyed” rule of leadership.
Respectfully,
Robin
@ilovebeeswarzone: Apparently Karzai has a good working relationship with McChrystal. Thomas Ricks seems to suggest that if McChrystal is out, then it might be Mattis to replace him.
I have no tolerance for fools like you Robin. Your statements reveal a way of thinking that causes me to question your patriotism and intelligence. Yes, you allegedly served. Well I have met liberals who have served and their blame America first attitude was not diminished.
You call our soldiers occupiers and that you understand why people want to kill them. If you think that is appropriate or accurate then it is a good thing you are retired. Like I said, you sound like a ron paul loon or a REMF liberal.
BKEEN: I like that one, very funny. bye 🙄
Oh and Robin, your grip on history is less than firm. Until we started shipping over Stingers, the Russians HAD pretty much won. They were even going into remote areas via Spetznaz soldiers and killing muj that were trying to lay low.
The war in Afghanistan can be won, but not the way we are fighting it currently.
WORDSMITH: hi, do you know of him,his personality a bit?. bye 🙄
HARD RIGHT: I was reading your upper comment and i felt to say; IF they encounter 10 ennemies, and you kill2… HE should have said to his troops, dont kill 2, but kill them all, so they wont kill you tomorrow. bye
AS times went by now the PReZ said, STRATEGY will remain the same: I hope GENERAL PETRAUS has the gutts that is required to put the soldiers on top priority of his agenda and overlook the advices of any one demanding ROE. the militarys are not expandeble, they are the best of all and needed as precious guardians in AMERICA. THEY earned it with their disabling casultys and their spilled blood. bye 🙄
@ilovebeeswarzone:
I was listening to a local radio broadcast a few minutes ago, General Petraeous is changing the Rules of Engagement. He thinks our troops have a right to defend themselves.
@Missy
Mata is correct in that Obama is NOT getting a a “yes” man in General Petraeous. Changing those rules of engagement is just the first step in changing the mindset over there to one of actually winning.
Unfortunately, Obama, due to the limited intellect and very short memory of the leftist throng, will get much credit when things turn around for the better.
MATA: it’s with emotion that i’m so happy to finaly read this good news,thank you. bye
MISSY: thank you for the good news. bye 🙄
The ROE currently in place for our troops are rules that the left and liberals can be comfortable with in going to war. Only our troops get killed and we then withdraw as “losers” Then justifying massive cuts to our defense budget.
Just in case no one has thought about this, but the ROEs in place are predominately determined by NATO’s decision-by-committee process. McC was in charge of the NATO troops. Now Petraeus is going to have to deal with the NATO ROEs as the new NATO commander. Whether he can buck the committee decision process for more effective theatre engagement is another story. He is constrained by the same forces McC was.
@Mata Harley
One thing missing is that MacC worked for Patreus (CENTCOM). These ROE’s had to be known to Patreus… and if they were wrong it was Patreus’s, job, as CENTCOM, to get MacC to change them.
The other thing people are missing… it that this is a DEMOTION for Patreus… he already WAS in Command of Afganistan, as CENTCOM… and he is now knocked down a step… and someone else will be put in charge of him…
The media and Administration is trying to “spin” this as a good thing for Patreus, when everyone who knows how the military works, sees this as a slap AT Patreus as well.
ROMEO13: hi, you mentioned a very important fact, and I was wondering and thinking, how come he did not act on this earlier? he must surely have known, well maybe and now I’m presuming, that he did not want to create an issue, with his friend. bye 🙄
MATA: hi, WOULD you know who will appoint the new NATO COMMANDER?. bye 🙄
Obama has already appointed the new US NATO commander, Bees… It’s Petraeus. What hasn’t been learned is who is the new commander of the US forces in Afghanistan that Petraeus formerly led.
MATA: thank’s, WORDSMITH mentioned maybe MATTIS, I hope it’s him, from his profile. bye 🙄
I’m going to do something i don’t do too ofter… QUOTE Rush Limbaugh!!!!!!
“”The armies job is to kill people and break things!”” And he’s absolutely correct??? They’re not cops, babysitters, nation builders etc… This I see is where this has all gone wrong.. Viet Nam2. You do not run “nice wars”!!!! You kick ass, and take no names, until the white flag goes up, or your opponent goes down, in totality!!! Period!!
Another Quote, from Sheriff Jim Wilson…. “In a gunfight, it’s not a ballet with rules!! You shoot the other guy FIRST, you shoot him HARDEST, and we’ll sort out the rest afterwards!! THAT, is WAR!! Hard, mean and ugly. It was MEANT to be, so people would AVOID it!! Once you tried to “civilize it”.. it’s like the first time Amnesty was given to Illegals… the “intention was good”… but the END RESULT, SUCKS!!!
Give em some REAL war… and it’ll end fast! one way, or the other. In either case, our guys come home quicker!
oops, that should be !!!! after correct. NOT ??? my bad.. very busy day! just got tagged to be County Campaign Co-ordinator for Chuck Purgason for Senate !!!! yee haa!!!! now it REALLY gets interesting!!
HANKSTER 58: hi, HE sure knew to pick the best guy, good luck. bye 🙄
@Hankster58:
would it make you feel any better to know that Rush got this from General Patton? The idea and broader concept, and not the exact phrasing anyhow. Just because Ruch repeated it, that does not invalidate its veracity.