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Brett
13 years ago
Just another Muslim attempt of gaining a foothold in this country. They have no remorse or intentions of peace. I think it is a disgrace to OUR NATION, and I would be ashamed of, and spat on anyone that even considered it.
BRETT:can you give me the bits and what of the video?. i cannot open the video cause i will crash on the first minute. bye 🙄
T Holmes
13 years ago
I agree with you Brett, except they already have footholds all over the country. This is the price we pay for “freedom”. I do not believe the founding fathers could foresee the separation of church and state taking us down a path of being over run by an anti-christian religion like Islam. I agree, it is a disgrace to OUR NATION and we should stand up and do something about it.
Liam
13 years ago
walid has written some /very/ interesting books. Very intellectual, but also very applicable from someone that grew up as a former-terrorist
Where’s Wordsmith? I seem to recall he hinted I was overreacting about this moque.
Flyovercountry
13 years ago
This man did say something interesting. Apparently, shutting down a mosque will infuriate the Muslime world. something to ponder, and a new found purpose for the future? How does one go about shutting down a center for the Religion of Piece?
ugh
13 years ago
I’m sure you all forgot, but speaking about religious buildings. This is a video of Serbian Christian churches that were destroyed by Muslim Albanians.
Imam unmosqued
Ground Zero booster tied to sea clash
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a key figure in Malaysian-based Perdana Global Peace Organization, according to its Website.
Perdana is the single biggest donor ($366,000) so far to the Free Gaza Movement, a key organizer of the six-ship flotilla that tried to break Israel’s blockade of the Hamas-run Gaza Strip Monday.
At the risk of incurring Mike’s wrath, I shall nest comfortably with Wordsmith on this one… as I did before. But again, like in the other thread, for completely different reasons which so many of you want to ignore because of the passion.
First of all, a word on this snap judgment. The Free Gaza Movement may be made up of those who are anti-Israel, but not necessarily jihadists. You’ll notice they have local affiliates in 24 countries, including four here in the US. So if this Iman supports it, are all of these people also jihadists? Afterall, you are playing the association game here to the max.
Fact is, not all of the Gaza aid flotilla ships are manned by jihadists. Remember there is genuine aid going thru as well, and Israel has let pass most of these flotilla ships in previous events. Are the nefarious trying to hide behind the skirts of the pro-Palestinian movements that are providing genuine aid, in order to sneak thru jihad supplies? Absolutely… which is why Israel needs to stop, search, inspect and stay a’top the situation. That is their right, and their duty for national security.
I have no doubt that Iman Rauf is pro-Palestinian. But he also has some Jewish rabbis in NY standing up for his character as well. Does he believe the US foreign policies contribute to the jihad movement? of course… then again, so do most Muslims and, for that matter, a monstrous amount of the liberal/progressive community. But they aren’t all jihad. So forgive me, but I still see absolutely nothing here, or in the past, that makes me believe this Iman is a firebrand who preaches jihad to his flock. Will this mosque become a jihad training center? Way too high profile. They will be under a particularly strong microscope.
But absolutely none of this “is he a jihadist, or not” chit chat has whit to do with their Cordoba mosque. Like it or not, this is a property owners issue… period. If the property is zoned for their intended use, then to prohibit it because of their religion is about as anti-American as you can get. Just as banning speech because you don’t like the content is anti-American. I know you all may think this is a cold way to look at it, but frankly, I’m more concerned wtih stripping rights of everyone when you start down this path.
In most building permits is the requirement that the surrounding neighbors are notified, and have hearings to raise objections to the planning council. That is where any objection should go…. and it should be up to the New York property owners in that region because it’s a local issue. The planning council may weigh the objections, but if it solely comes down to “it ain’t right”, the objections rightfully should be overruled. If the council sides with the objections of the neighbors’ emotions, then the building owners can take it to court… and they will. Just as they should.
Why do I believe this? I look ahead. Because one day your neighbors may not like your Christian religion, or your bloodline, or your choice of friends or politics….. and be empowered by this precedent to stop you from utilizing a building, or developing raw land in a way that conforms with zoning permitted uses.
Do you really want to travel this path? If you do, you may head down that slippery slope, sans my company.
You may not like Larry Flint, but he is the perfect example of how free speech and American freedoms apply to everyone, even when you don’t like what they stand for or what they say. You don’t have to like that a mosque is going up… yes, I agree is severely lacking in taste and sensitivity. But I choose freedoms without bias above being offended by their choice of location. And I leave the battle and the decisions to the neighborhood locals… as it should be.
MATA: hi, they should have you in the WHITE HOUSE, on the next election: because you know the law so much, no one can argument , when you come here and comment or AUTHOR a post, it tell of truth unquestioned by anyone. I WAS thinking if i may explain this: because the ennemies of AMERICANS are working so hard to impose theirs views including putting their moneys in winning their point, to impose their religion in any way they can: by diplomatie long trial, or by force: the freedom to show that it is not wanted in AMERICA by the majority, if demonstration of this power written in theCONSTITUTION of this land,which survive the last centurys to be just and fair to all AMERICANS; is not succesful, what is the next avenue for the people to have their rights, applied?. thank you. bye 🙄
Have a listen to Pat Condell and see if reality doesn’t dawn….
Gee…thanks for 6 minutes and 9 seconds of my life wasted on listening to a religious bigot’s opinion on his version of reality. So what “reality” did you expect to have “dawned” on me from viewing that hate-spew?
Somewhere “in a cave”, bin Laden’s cheering him on.
Shocker! Ground Zero Mosque Imam Prominent Member of Free Gaza Movement
…The imam behind a proposed mosque near Ground Zero is a prominent member of a group that helped sponsor the pro-Palestinian activists who clashed violently with Israeli commandos at sea this week.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a key figure in Malaysian-based Perdana Global Peace Organization, according to its Website.
Perdana is the single biggest donor ($366,000) so far to the Free Gaza Movement, a key organizer of the six-ship flotilla that tried to break Israel’s blockade of the Hamas-run Gaza Strip Monday…
Ground Zero Imam: ‘I Don’t Believe in Religious Dialogue’
Pajamas Media has uncovered extraordinary contradictions between what he says in English and what he says in Arabic that raise serious questions about his true intentions in the construction of the mosque.
Keep believing he’s not an Islamic fascist. Evidence suggests otherwise.
@Mike’s America: @MataHarley: Tsk, tsk, tsk… The evidence is mounting that this Imam is a faux moderate Muslim.
You really want to stick with your ever weakening position?
Have some cake with your taqiyya.
Sorry to say that’s a predictable response from you. Hence my opening sentence in my comment.
Let me caution you… don’t confuse me with those you like to simply slap and dash with sticks and stones insults, guy. I assure you, I am quite up to the task of playing your schoolyard games with condescending insults.
As I pointed out – and apparently you choose to ignore – I’m quite sure that Rauf shares the same views as more than a few lib/progs, and more than a majority of Muslims in being critical of US foreign policy. Therefore your attempt to make this all about me, supposedly defending the personal views of a “moderate Muslim” is misplaced. I don’t agree with those views personally. I have stated my personal feelings about this mosque being offensive on many an occasion. I just happen to place my priorities in a different place, and refuse to cater to hot headed emotions that result in dangerous injustice for our freedoms.
If you will re’read my comment, very slowly, you will find that my objections to this is because it is an ugly, anti-property rights movement that is extremely short sighted and hypocritical. If you can deny building owners their rights to develop within current zoning regulations because of their religion, or your personal opinions about what they are building, then your future is seriously in jeopardy when someone moves in next door to you, and wants to prohibit you building your Reagan monument in your front yard…. or starting a Christian community center. Make up any scenario you want, it comes down to the same thing. If you can fuel enough nationwide public opinion to negate an owners development rights with PC police thought, these terrorists have won.
So if you feel the need to hurl your childish remarks my way, I suggest you concentrate on battling me on what I put forth as my reasoning – property rights – and stop reading imaginary crap into my commentary.
@Hard Right: your link adds nothing to Missy’s, which pretty much says exactly the same thing. So every member of the Free Gaza Movement is now a terrorist? My my… our nation is filled with the same then, and you can begin with our own anti-Israel Congress members.
My point is, you can be anti-Israel, and not be a terrorist. Last I looked in this country, people can have differing points of view. I don’t happen to agree with that sentiment, but I dang well respect the rights of others to have that opinion, and I don’t label all of them terrorists. The only reason for attempting to link Rauf with this particular ship, loaded with the Turkish terror group, is to paint a broader brush stroke to increase public dissent. However, as I have pointed out, the Free Gaza Movement is not a terrorist group. Anti-Israel? Most likely. But not terrorists.
If Rauf is found to be an Iman, preaching jihad and facilitating training, I’ll mea culpa and side with you guys. In the meantime, he’s just a Muslim who’s not much different than the average lib/prog or other Muslims that aren’t terrorist training camp grads.
@ilovebeeswarzone: Why Mike’sA wants to elevate an atheist, British comedian to any status is beyond me. Pat Condell, who I consider just another entertainer with an opinion, is an admitted atheist, and a member of the National Secular Society – an organization who’s prime existence is to campaign against faith in the schools. I assure you, what he does to Islam, he’s just as happy to do to Christians, Jews and Buddists.
@MataHarley: I’m not sure why you are so offended by the suggestion you may be the victim of taqiyya and may be ascribing motives to this Imam that are not in line with reality but you can’t bluff or bluster away the weakening of your position.
Pat Condell has seen the ugly reality of Islamofascism at work in Britain.
He’s merely trying to warn us that the same thing is happening here.
I’m sure you don’t deny it and I don’t think it is “bigoted” to point it out.
I’m responding directly to what Condell says in the 6 minute video. He doesn’t make a distinction between Islam and the term you just used, “Islamofascism”.
And your arguments are just plain weird when addressing someone like me who reads from much of the same conservative blogs as you, along with the typical posts warning of the dangers of Islamisation (some of which I’ve posted, myself). Londonistan is soooo 2006. So please don’t talk to me as if Islamisation of Europe is some novel concern I’m unfamiliar with. I’ve been sitting in on the conservative amen chorus for some time now, listening to all the familiar anti-Islamic tunes sung over and over again. I share some of those concerns; others I find gives validity to those on the left and in the center who look at some of us and think we are just conspiratorial nuts and bigots. And sometimes, I’m finding it harder and harder to disagree.
Telling me Pat Condell “has seen the ugly reality of Islamofacisms at work in Britain” is like telling me Al Franken has seen “the ugly reality of rightwing extremism at work in the United States” and Bill Maher has personally seen “the ugly reality” of the Bush Administration and Christianity because he lives here; therefore, they have automatic credibility and I should believe their point of view. That is the logic you’re selling me with. They have an opinion like Condell has an opinion.
@Wordsmith said: “So please don’t talk to me as if Islamisation of Europe is some novel concern I’m unfamiliar with.”
Where did I suggest that you were unfamiliar with the problem?
I said “I’m sure you don’t deny” the danger. How did you morph that into an accusation you are not informed?
Seems to me you and Mata are overly sensitive to the fact that your earlier defense of the Ground Zero Imam is based on the faulty assumption that the man is one of those moderate muslims we all wish we had more of.
Obviously, I don’t share that opinion. But that’s merely a side issue here. The issue is whether it is appropriate to build a monument to Mohammed in the immediate vicinity of Ground Zero and to dedicate it on the 10th anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
Perhaps in your broad understanding of the Islamic world you could share with us how this monument might be interpreted in the Muslim world. Is it not possible that many radicals might see this as a victory monument to their cause?
Jihadis don’t really appreciate the subtle differences you and Mata wish to see here. Besides, when this Imam travels in Arab lands he’s often quoted as saying things that are the opposite of what you might expect from a moderate.
I hope you won’t be offended if I side with Debra Burlingame and her assesment of the Imam:
“I think it goes to show he is not the man he represents himself to be. We have two Imam Raufs,”The New York Post quoted Burlingame, as saying. “We have the anti-Israel, anti-democratic imam, and we have the smiling, soft-spoken moderate Muslim who says ‘Why can’t we all get along?'” she added.
Do you really want me to recount the many statements by Rauf that lead many to believe he’s not the moderate you want him to be?
This guy says one thing in English and another thing in Arabic. How often have we seen that before?
@Mike’s America: I’m not sure why you are so offended by the suggestion you may be the victim of taqiyya and may be ascribing motives to this Imam that are not in line with reality but you can’t bluff or bluster away the weakening of your position.
That’s not an insult. It’s an observation.
I’m sure you understand the difference.
Mike, I’m going to have to agree with Wordsmith here. You address both of us as if we braindead to realities of the global Islamic jihad movement. That, in itself, is offensive.
Your comment about “cake with your taqiyya” is just a few degrees different from your usual “koolaid” comments to resident liberals here. In fact, whether you meant it as me, supposedly delivering lies, or me as a victim of lies, it’s remains an offensive personal, and demeaning comment either way. Either one is a schoolyard taunt, assuming my intelluctual faculties are somehow disfunctional and inferior to your personal brillance.
I see no “weakening” in my position, or Wordsmith’s. However I do see an increase in your defensive shields. Feeling a tad exposed, perhaps? I’d say that the debate over this on Curt’s Iran post (yup… we got waaaaaay OT there…) yields proof that many understand the point I am making about this mosque, and the dangers of selective restriction of property rights of owners if they are of a certain flavor. You prefer to focus on a view you imagine I have, as if I somehow personally sanction this cleric.
Note, this is not about profiling, which I see an inherent logic in most situations. This is about one set of rights for a particular flavor of US citizens because the rest of the nation doesn’t like their religious beliefs. And if/when that mosque gets built, they should be under a serious microscope… as should all mosques, in my opinion. If they are the chosen grounds for jihad conversion, we should watch those locations.
But I am concerned about this Islamophobia that seems to be running rampid with some conservatives. This does not bode well. When you actually approach some with imposition of restricted civil or property rights, many come close to admitting they are okay with that as long as it’s Islam. OMG…. WTF?
Disdain and/or fear of any particular religion or cult is never healthy. And advocating special rules for the same, because of that disdain/fear, is simply not the American way. As their freedoms go today, there go the rest of ours tomorrow. And I’m sure you can understand that reality… even if it doesn’t fit into your talking points here.
@Mike’s America: Seems to me you and Mata are overly sensitive to the fact that your earlier defense of the Ground Zero Imam is based on the faulty assumption that the man is one of those moderate muslims we all wish we had more of.
Again I will say that the main thrust of my oppposition is because of discrimination in property rights. Again I will repeat I don’t agree with this clerics position. But unlike you, I don’t feel the need to, and I don’t advocate abrogation of his rights.
I will, however, point out that no one has provided a lick of proof that this cleric advocates jihad in his teachings. You have merely demonstrated that he shares the same views of the US that the lib/progs and many Muslims do. BFD
But apparently, if he’s not flying the flag and doing a rah rah USA, he should be denied property rights. These owners hurdled every legal process, got almost unanimous approval of the council, and the neighborhood denizens were involved. But none of that means anything to you, who’s not even a resident, because you’re offended. Who’s the intolerant one, Mike?
While your Alinsky tactics are improving, you might want to try pulling the wool over the eyes of those less read.
@MataHarley: Thanks for confirming ONCE AGAIN, that you are overly sensitive to the weakened position you hold regarding this monument to Mohammed at Ground Zero.
This isn’t Islamophobia, or bigotry but a recognition that this mosque, built at this site is not only inappropriate, but offensive and counterproductive to winning the war on terror by giving the radicals a symbol to rally around.
I have a clear record of supporting moderate muslims. Wordsmith, who knows that record well, can attest to it. If you would like, I can share with you my posts on the subject. Surely, you are not accusing me of being Islamophobic?
Is it possible that you are creating bigoted straw men to avoid dealing with the reality here?
Do you dismiss Debra Burlingame as Islamophobic? The same for Walid Shoebat?
P.S. This isn’t about property rights. This is about right and wrong. There is a difference. The protestors have been very clear the Imam has the RIGHT to build but should not do so.
Let’s stop creating straw men here unless you are applying for a job with the Obama Administration!
Me thinks you doth protest too much, Mike. It’s too bad we can’t use your ever increasing defensive shield on the borders, effectively making it nigh on impossible for illegal entry into the States.
@Wordsmith said: “So please don’t talk to me as if Islamisation of Europe is some novel concern I’m unfamiliar with.”
Where did I suggest that you were unfamiliar with the problem?
I said “I’m sure you don’t deny” the danger. How did you morph that into an accusation you are not informed?
Mike, it’s not that I don’t think you actually think I’m not informed; but when you wrote “Pat Condell has seen the ugly reality of Islamofascism at work in Britain.”, the way it came across when I first read it, due to me being “overly sensitive”, is that “the ugly reality of Islamofascism at work in Britain” is a new concept on me. I guess I read it in a bad light. I disagree with Condell’s rant in the video.
Seems to me you and Mata are overly sensitive to the fact that your earlier defense of the Ground Zero Imam is based on the faulty assumption that the man is one of those moderate muslims we all wish we had more of.
I haven’t gone forward or back either way. So far, I just see people on the right wanting to read into things what they want to see and believe.
First of all, a word on this snap judgment. The Free Gaza Movement may be made up of those who are anti-Israel, but not necessarily jihadists. You’ll notice they have local affiliates in 24 countries, including four here in the US. So if this Iman supports it, are all of these people also jihadists? Afterall, you are playing the association game here to the max.
Fact is, not all of the Gaza aid flotilla ships are manned by jihadists. Remember there is genuine aid going thru as well, and Israel has let pass most of these flotilla ships in previous events. Are the nefarious trying to hide behind the skirts of the pro-Palestinian movements that are providing genuine aid, in order to sneak thru jihad supplies? Absolutely… which is why Israel needs to stop, search, inspect and stay a’top the situation. That is their right, and their duty for national security.
I have no doubt that Iman Rauf is pro-Palestinian. But he also has some Jewish rabbis in NY standing up for his character as well. Does he believe the US foreign policies contribute to the jihad movement? of course… then again, so do most Muslims and, for that matter, a monstrous amount of the liberal/progressive community. But they aren’t all jihad. So forgive me, but I still see absolutely nothing here, or in the past, that makes me believe this Iman is a firebrand who preaches jihad to his flock. Will this mosque become a jihad training center? Way too high profile. They will be under a particularly strong microscope.
But absolutely none of this “is he a jihadist, or not” chit chat has whit to do with their Cordoba mosque.
What is not to understand in that answer?
Obviously, I don’t share that opinion. But that’s merely a side issue here. The issue is whether it is appropriate to build a monument to Mohammed in the immediate vicinity of Ground Zero and to dedicate it on the 10th anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
Not wise; and predictably provocative. I would have recommended against it. I guess I don’t have confidence in my fellow American citizens not to reduce themselves to ethnic and religious prejudice, here. It is just asking for trouble.
Insensitive, too; but if the motives behind the decision are based upon good intentions, they might have been blind to the sensitive nature of this. Who knows? They don’t see Islam as having attacked us on 9/11. Unfortunately, many Americans associate 9/11 with Islamic terrorism with emphasis on ISLAM.
Perhaps in your broad understanding of the Islamic world you could share with us how this monument might be interpreted in the Muslim world. Is it not possible that many radicals might see this as a victory monument to their cause?
It will be now, due to the vocal, meda-attention-sucking opposition to the building of it.
It provides propaganda fodder to those who wish to convince fellow Muslims that America is at war with Islam, and is persecuting their faith. Zawahiri couldn’t have scripted this better.
Every instance of a “hate crime” against a Muslim in the States, a mosque being vandalized, is a win for the jihad movement. It validates their conspiratorial beliefs about America’s imperialism, racism, persecution of muslims.
al Qaeda looks upon secular Islamic societies and Muslims living here in the States as apostates. Any Muslim who participates in our way of life is a traitor. An apostate Grand Mosque at Ground Zero is a thumb in the eye to bin Laden and Zawahiri.
Jihadis don’t really appreciate the subtle differences you and Mata wish to see here. Besides, when this Imam travels in Arab lands he’s often quoted as saying things that are the opposite of what you might expect from a moderate.
He is talking to a different audience, after all; but I don’t expect him to espouse my political beliefs regarding American foreign policy. Reference back to Mata comment #10. Now if you can find me something where he is in the Middle East speaking in Arabic for Muslims to go out and slay Christians, convert and kill non-Muslims, embrace the jihad, etc., then you have my attention.
I hope you won’t be offended if I side with Debra Burlingame and her assesment of the Imam:
“I think it goes to show he is not the man he represents himself to be. We have two Imam Raufs,”The New York Post quoted Burlingame, as saying. “We have the anti-Israel, anti-democratic imam, and we have the smiling, soft-spoken moderate Muslim who says ‘Why can’t we all get along?'” she added.
This is like citing Mike’s America….just another opinionist who shares your belief, just as you cited Condell. These are her words and interpretations.
Do you really want me to recount the many statements by Rauf that lead many to believe he’s not the moderate you want him to be?
This guy says one thing in English and another thing in Arabic. How often have we seen that before?
How often have we seen those with agendas to pick and choose and interpret how they wish to see things?
I don’t know enough about Imam Rauf to formulate an adequate opinion of him one way or the other; what I’ve been reading on him is mostly stuff coming out of the right side of the blogosphere. Reliably objective, I’m sure.
@Mike’s America: The issue is whether it is appropriate to build a monument to Mohammed in the immediate vicinity of Ground Zero and to dedicate it on the 10th anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
That’s an interesting strawman you present, Mike. Especially in light of the reality that both Wordsmith and I have expressed we do not share, nor sanction, the Imam’s views on American foreign policy. And both of us have stated that we believe it is both inappropriate and insensitive. I find many things people do both inappropriate and insensitive. I am not willing to shatter our civil rights over that sensitivity.
You do, however, overlook the title of this thread: NYC Ground Zero Mosque Founder Exposed? Curt, in his wisdom, did put a question mark at the end of his headline. Your opinion has no question mark… you have pronounced him guilty. Neither Wordsmith, nor I, have found any such evidence that he preaches jihad. Merely that he shares a common opinion with lib/progs and our own POTUS.
Let there be no doubt – the board members that approved the Ground Zero mosque have timidly allowed the Islamists to lure them into a trap – one that unless reversed, will result in the Islamists accomplishing yet another step in their overall objective to do, as McCarthy notes, slowly turn America into a shariah society..And they will have done so with the help of naive, liberal, self-important, nudniks like those on the community board – full of multiculturalist platitudes and self-righteous moralizing, that just approved the mosque.
hummmmm a “trap” that one more mosque in this location will lead to turning America into a “shariah society”. Talk about a leap into hysteria. I don’t know about you, but as a conservative, I put as much distance between me and this statement as I do neo-Nazis and KKK members who may agree with conservatives on any particular issue. None of that statement reflects how I view this mosque.
In fact, I don’t see McCarthy acknowledging their property rights at all. I see him blaming the council as being ignorant dupes instead of them actually following the rule of law. I’d say the overwhelming majority of them knew there were no legal grounds for denying the permit…. whether they approved personally or not. This is no different than a judge ruling on a case based on evidence, and not personal opinion.
Now, a contrast between a couple of comments:
Ibrahim · 5 days ago
I might have been neutral about this mosque had I not read the constant flow of hate speech from every anti-Muslim bigot in the US, from Pamela Geller to Daniel Pipes and Robert Spencer. In Texas a radio show host actually proposes bombing the place when it’s full of Muslims. But then, a lot of the rhetoric from these people seems to resemble how the Klan took to black churches. Now I totally support this mosque. Above all else it needs to send the message that Muslim New Yorkers don’t need to take crap from anybody.
~~~
’nuff already · 21 hours ago
And non-Muslim Americans should not have to put up with Muslims bent an. destroying this great republic. There’s no need for a 13-story mosque in lower manhattan. There’s no need for a 13-story mosque anywhere in America. In fact, there’s no room for islam in America. It is 100% totally and completely at odds with western democracy. In the west we have separation of church and state. In islam there is no such separation…church and state are one. Hmm…looks like islam may actually be unconstitutional! Now that would be something I could applaud!
I certainly don’t want you dead, I just don’t want you here
Lost in this haze of hatemongering is the legitimate disagreement over the wisdom of a plan for the 13-story Islamic center.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who leads the effort, contends that the center with facilities open to all faiths will help promote interfaith understanding and encourage integration of Muslims into American society.
But some Muslim Americans see it differently. M. Zuhdi Jasser, president of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, believes the proposal is well-intentioned but misguided. “The site represents Ground Zero in America’s war against radical Islamists who seek to destroy the American way of life,” he wrote in the New York Post. “It is not ground zero of a cultural exchange.”
Geller and her supporters, however, aren’t interested in having a civil exchange about appropriate development near the 9/11 site. They reject any place for Islam in America. Calling Islam “the religion of barbarism” that “inspired Hitler and the Nazis,” Geller sees the war on terrorism as a fight against Islam itself.
Sometimes, Mike, you need to take a close look at those in your midst, and their intent. While some are genuinely wishing to take the only legal course… apply peer pressure to force the building owners to change their plans…. others are seizing on it to fuel their Islamophobia.
The more you two attempt to justify your position, the weaker it gets.
You seem DETERMINED to erect straw men arguments rather than deal with the reality of a monument to Mohammed at Ground Zero.
Did I miss something in the flood of verbosity where you refute what Burlingame and Shoebat have said?
If so, please repeat it without burying it.
Also, did we miss Wordsmith’s recognition of my desire to support moderate Muslims?
Should I now start to provide links to those posts?
Come on you two: Don’t you have anything better to do than defend this weak position?????
Patvann
13 years ago
Me thinks you doth protest too much, Mike. It’s too bad we can’t use your ever increasing defensive shield on the borders, effectively making it nigh on impossible for illegal entry into the States.
June 2, 2010
The Danger of Demonizing Adherents of Islam
By RICHARD BERNSTEIN
NEW YORK — They are not exactly ubiquitous, but according to The Daily News, 40 New York City buses are rolling these days with an unusual and, to be frank, dubious advertisement emblazoned on their sides.
“Fatwa on your head?” the ad reads, in a message apparently aimed at Muslims who want to convert to another religion or simply not to be Muslims anymore. “Is your family or community threatening you?”
The ad is promoting a Web site, RefugeFromIslam.com, where, presumably, New York Muslims whose lives have been threatened because they want to convert can turn for help, and the site contains links to other sites with various anti-Islamic purposes. “Muslims Against Sharia,” for example, aims “to educate Muslims about dangers presented by Islamic religious texts and why Islam must be reformed.”
It has often been noted that the genius of American life is a certain willed forgetfulness, a willingness by the various groups that make up our population to impose an amnesty on the ethnic and religious feuds of elsewhere. Or as the French immigrant Jean de Crèvecoeur put it in 1782, the “ancient prejudices and manners” have been left behind by the new American man, who has received “new ones from the new mode of life he has embraced.”
And it is largely true that the ethnic, tribal and religious conflicts that have raged elsewhere in the world have not been recapitulated in this country, where Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants may not adore one another but do live in peace, as do Greeks and Turks, Arabs and Jews, and just about everybody else.
Probably that is not about to change drastically; and yet, those bus ads are a small sign that Islamic extremism and the often intemperate and panicky reaction to it are creating a kind of vicious cycle in which the traditional interethnic truce and live-and-let-live civility of American life could be casualties.
The ads, which, according to The Daily News, will run for a month, were created by a 51-year-old conservative blogger named Pamela Geller, who heads a group called Stop the Islamization of America and sees as its task to expose the supposedly retrograde and repressive nature of Islam itself.
“There ought to be ads also for people who want to leave Islam,” she told The Daily News. “Their lives are threatened.”
Are they? There is no doubt that in any number of Muslim countries, apostasy is indeed a crime punishable by death.
Maybe, in the privacy of Islamic American society, there are similar threats. But certainly Ms. Geller’s various Web sites offer no evidence of them, despite a strenuous effort to do so. The site listed on that bus ad refers vaguely to an “honor killing” that took place 20 years ago in Arizona. It also reprints a news account from 2007 about a Muslim man living in Queens who stabbed his wife to death, a terrible crime, but there is no indication that this particular killing was perpetrated because the wife no longer wanted to be Muslim.
This is not to say that worries about Muslim culture are based on nothing. No doubt Ms. Geller’s ad campaign gains credibility via that substantial portion of the Muslim world that condones or encourages things like honor killings, suicide bombings, the cult of death and martyrdom, and the savagely discriminatory treatment of women and girls.
It would be pointless in this sense to deny that jihadist radicals around the world, yearning to turn the clock back to the supposedly pure Islam of the seventh century, have succeeded in defining Islam for many non-Muslims, including, it would seem, Ms. Geller. Moreover, the response of Islamic moderates to the death-loving stain of Islamic jihadism has tended to be meek and anemic.
Still, even those of us mystified and disturbed by the sway of radical jihadist Islam ought to recognize that, with an infinitesimal number of exceptions, the five million to seven million Muslims estimated to live in the United States have behaved like others of Crèvecoeur’s new American men, more interested in getting ahead in their new country than in nurturing ancient conflicts and prejudices.
This is what those bus ads and the mentality behind them threaten to subvert. Here in New York, there has been vociferous opposition to plans by a local Muslim group known as Cordoba House to build a 13-story community center in an old coat factory two blocks from the former World Trade Center site. The Muslim center would include a mosque and a memorial to the victims of Sept. 11, 2001.
Not surprisingly, Ms. Geller is among the organizers of a demonstration called for June 6, D-Day, against what they call “the mega-mosque at Ground Zero.” Appearing on the Fox News program “Huckabee” a couple of weeks ago, Ms. Geller said that “a mosque embodies the very ideology that inspired those attacks on 9/11.” That is why Cordoba House is “an outrage, an insult, and humiliating to all Americans.”
The host, Mike Huckabee, had received a statement from the American Society for Muslim Advancement, which argued that the Cordoba Center was precisely a way to remedy the perceived failure of moderate Muslims to speak out against extremism. It would be a place, the statement said, not only where freedom of religion could be practiced but where American Muslims could “stand together with our fellow citizens to condemn extremism and violence.”
Ms. Geller’s reply was to remind Fox News’s viewers that the Sept. 11 attacks were aimed at two of the most important symbols of America, and the recent attempt by a Pakistani-American terrorist to set off a bomb in Times Square was aimed at another.
This is true, which is why we are speaking here of a vicious cycle. If there are more terrorist attempts by Muslims on American soil, there will more Americans paying for bus ads and other things to express their rage at Islam itself as well as at Muslims in America, and to encourage the idea that America is, or ought to be, its and their enemy.
This of course is exactly what the jihadists want them to do. The more we make all Muslims our enemies, the more enemy Muslims we are going to have.
@Wordsmith: You just want to keep stirring that pot don’t you?
I would think after the disclosures about the Imam’s statements on Shariah, religious diversity and his connection to the Free Gaza provacateurs you might want to walk back some of those claims about this guy being a moderate.
And since you asked here’s a few of things I have been saying about supporting moderate muslims over the years:
We’ve talked much over the years for the need for moderate Muslims to come forward and be heard as a counterpoint to the jihadi propaganda we’re constantly seeing on “news” media and in the Muslim world.
Well, there’s a film called “Islam vs. Islamists” that features the message of moderate Muslims in the United States. It was originally to air on the taxpayer supported Public Broadcasting System. You would think PBS would welcome the opportunity to have such moderate voices heard. But then, you would be wrong.
Our pal Wordsmith attended a screening of the film in Beverly Hills, CA a week ago and you can read his impressions here.
For years now, we’ve asked “where are the moderate Muslims, why don’t they speak out against terrorism?”
Sadly, their voices, are rarely heard. And when they are, they’re often ignored. “Islam vs. the Islamists” was banned by PBS.
But voices of peace, freedom and hope cannot be silenced forever. Rays of light do occasionally flicker from dark and dangerous places such as Pakistan where radical Islamists are waging war against the government and the majority of Muslims who do not wish to live by the evil dictates of the extremists.
Some of Pakistan’s brightest artists got together and made the following music video which declares that the extremists are “not us.” It’s a way of showing the world that not all Muslims are terrorists and it rejects the extremism and violence that occupies our television sets all too frequently.
See if you’re not moved by the emotion in these young voices, singing in Pakistani Urdu with English subtitles:
You may have heard the news that the Council of Arab Islamic Radicals (CAIR) is encouraging Muslims traveling on American air carriers to report any abuse of their rights in the wake of the “airport profiling” of the Flying Imams who recently did everything they could to attract attention and provoke an incident.
The Washington Times reporting on how this episode is being used by CAIR as a political tool to cow U.S. air carriers into being subservient to Muslims also points to the statements of the chairman of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AFID).
For those of us looking for more moderate Muslim voices, AFID looks like a good place to start.
AFID is based in Phoenix, AZ, also the destination of the Flying Imams. And it’s leader, M. Zuhdi Jasser, a Phoenix physician and chairman of the group doesn’t mince words. Here’s some of what he had to say:
Islamic truths – By Mansoor Ijaz, MANSOOR IJAZ is an American Muslim of Pakistani ancestry:ANOTHER WEEK, another Muslim country burns in rage over months-old Danish cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in an unflattering light. On Friday it was Libya, and earlier in the week it was my father’s homeland, Pakistan, where violent protests were scattered across the nation. Some Muslims have decided that burning cities in defense of a prophet’s teachings, which none of them seem willing to practice, is preferable to participating in rational debate about the myths and realities of a religion whose worst enemies are increasingly its own adherents.
I am sure I have a lot more examples, but that’ll do for now.
As I always, have, I support moderate muslims. I just have real and GROWING questions about whether this Imam is one of them. If he wants to build his mosque somewhere else fine. But not as a monument to Mohammed at Ground Zero opening on the 10th anniversary of the attacks.
Surely, the negative symbolism of such a move isn’t lost on you?
MIKE: hi, IT seems to be easyer for the muslim IMAN to be beleived, than to an ELITE TRUE AMERICAN like you have shown yourself to be in all your posts: I had to mentioned that. bye 🙄
You just want to keep stirring that pot don’t you?
Attaboy, Mike! 8)
I know you’ve posted these before. I just love seeing ’em in cyberprint.
But not as a monument to Mohammed at Ground Zero opening on the 10th anniversary of the attacks.
Surely, the negative symbolism of such a move isn’t lost on you?
I understand the perception of “negative symbolism” here. But what I also see in the rhetoric of opposition of some people is bigotry. And they can’t even see it!
With all the din being made by Geller and company, ya’ll have now got my attention and I’m tempted to make a post in favor of the Grand Mosque, whereas before I was ambivalent and on the sidelines about it, mostly thinking this isn’t a smart idea and only asking for trouble.
And I know there will be stupid people out there who will resort to vandalism and civil rights violations, harming the conservative movement politically.
They won’t be hurting Islam. They will be hurting themselves and doing a huge favor for al Qaeda and affiliates.
al Qaeda failed to rally 1.5 billion Muslims under the banner of jihad and the siren call of martyrdom. Maybe y’all will succeed where they had failed, by becoming what Zawahiri and bin Laden have been claiming all along about the West and its mistreatment of Muslims.
Islam plays a component in those who truly are our enemies; but some of these terrorists aren’t even pious Islamists and are motivated by other factors, related to ethnicity, culture, geo-political ingredients. But Islam remains the convenient scapegoat. Even in the absence of the Islam factor, men like Ramzi Yousef, Arafat, Saddam would still be murderous thugs. Others, of course, are driven primarily by Islamic religious fervor of the violent variation. But when that accounts for only a small fraction of 1.5 billion who call themselves practitioners of Islam, there is indeed some truth to be said about the much ridiculed PC-truism that “Islam is being hijacked”.
The global jihad movement should be marginalized, religiously. They are the biggest killer of Muslims. But you only strengthen their propaganda claims regarding the decadent West persecuting their faith, and give them credibility when you attack the whole of Islam.
WORDSMITH: please don’t make thoses faces to MIKE, he has a ligitimate argument for your comments; you are moderate, it’s ligitimate also. but we acknowledge what the muslim should not do, and what they should do in this beautifull AMERICA for AMERICANS; they are not acting like true AMERICANS, so until they do, they should not impose their beleifs to this LAND OF THE BRAVES. THEY shoul show grattitude to all the people; they are not spilling their bloods or dying
for AMERICA, and until they do, they should be thankfull to all and learn the CONSTITUTION, which is the reason for their FREEDOM. they must EARN the respect of the AMERICANS,who dont get fooled by them, but just very tolerants, which has it’s limit too. bye 🙄
bees, mon ami: but we acknowledge what the muslim should not do, and what they should do in this beautifull AMERICA for AMERICANS; they are not acting like true AMERICANS, so until they do, they should not impose their beleifs to this LAND OF THE BRAVES.
Ms. Bees, they aren’t “imposing” their beliefs, nor running around forcing conversion to Islam. They are developing a building that houses community services, a mosque and a museum. And they did so by following our rules of law and procedure. I don’t believe there’s any plans for jihad training in their plans either, but I’m sure the feds would be keeping a close eye on that place.
In what you suggest, and what they are doing, there is a huge difference.
@Wordsmith: I am not denying that there exists bigotry against Muslims. Are you denying that there are also Muslims who say one thing in English and another in Arabic like this Imam?
When you say
“ya’ll have now got my attention and I’m tempted to make a post in favor of the Grand Mosque, whereas before I was ambivalent and on the sidelines about it, mostly thinking this isn’t a smart idea and only asking for trouble.”
First: No one says “ya’ll” anymore and I live in the Deep South.
But let’s put that aside.
Aren’t you admitting that you are merely taking the pro-mosque point of view simply to irritate people whom you see as bigoted toward Islam?
Surely, you aren’t tarring me with that brush. I know you are not.
So, why can’t you see that the opposition here isn’t entirely focused on blocking a mosque in New York. Just one at Ground Zero?
How many mosques are there in New York? Dozens, hundreds or more? How can anyone with a straight face say we are “persecuting” Islam by suggesting this mosque be built at another site. Especially so since mosques are everywhere?
Had you been alive at the time, would you have supported a Japanese Cultural Center built at Pearl Harbor just a few years after the attacks?
I know you are not an appeaser. I went back and looked at what you said about the Danish Cartoons and South Park:
But should we now let any Muslim group, whether moderate or not, build a mosque wherever they want? Will it make them happy or will the radicals just demand more?
Question: Doesn’t it trouble you that the Imam behind the Ground Zero mosque supports universal Shariah law?
Let me know when we build a Christian mega church in Mecca and I’ll reconsider my view.
Maybe you should look a little closer at that Gellar grassroots organization title, Mike. It’s not “Stop the Ground Zero Mosque”… it’s “Stop the Islamization of America”. And again, you wish to make America’s standards the same as Saudi Arabia’s when you bring up Mecca. What SA does is their onus to bear. I do not wish to see the US behave the same.
And, for your information, I have tons of friends and relatives in the south who quite freely use the expression “ya’ll”. Ya’ll oughta get out more… LOL
Flyovercountry
13 years ago
Mata and Wordsmith, it is not often that I disagree with you guys, but this is definately one of those times. This mosque represents so much more than a mere gathering place for worship and spritual reflection. This is a self declared foreign enemy planting their flag upon U.S. soil. They are planting that flag on the very spot that they viewed as our symbol of freedom and economic success. They are choosing as the date to plant that flag the 10th anniversary of what they view as their great victory in tearing that symbol down. They have announced this truth in both english and arabic. Please do not insult the intelligence of everyone reading this blog by pretending that this is not the case.
As for you constitutional arguments, they hold merrit. I agree that it is a slippery slope, but the constitution was meant for American Citizens, and not foreign enemies of our Nation. The monies pouring into our country for this monstrosity are mostly from foreign sources. That slope is even more slippery. If we recognize this fact or not, we are at war with islamofacists. As a matter of fact, the whole world is. One of the major problems is that they are doing most, if not all of the fighting. Another problem which I see is the definition of moderate muslim. All too often, I see the moderate muslims cropping up in federal terror investigations, money laundering scheemes, or just plain double speak in arabic news sources. That may seem bigoted to say, but the truth of the matter is not caring about politically correct sensibilities. If there are moderate muslims, let them join us in fighting against the islamofacists.
Come on now, Flyovercountry. I’ve racked up two with you lately…. :0)
But are you under the impression that the mosque is being built by Zawahiri or Bin Laden? Tell you what… as I said before, show me the evidence that this is the global islamic jihad movement building this mosque, and I’ll be happy to change my opinion. Not to mention that would be an easy thing to stop with freezing financial assets.
To be fair, two times in year is nearly total agreement, statistically speaking.
No, I do not believe that Bin Laden or Zawahiri are building this mosque. This one is a purely Wahabist initiative. That being said, this is not a tin foil hat moment. Just because our new enemy has multiple factions, who all want to be the guys in charge after the fall of the west does not mean that they don’t all have a terrifying goal in mind. It just happens to be our good fortune that these folks aren’t ever going to be united or even coordinated in their methodology for any extended period of time. Part of the reason they can be defeated is that they insist on fighting each other nearly as much as they are fighting us. Make no mistake about it though, we are merely in the way of their ultimate goal.
As a side note, I enjoy your opinions and writing too much to see you silenced by Sharia Law. 😉
Not bad stats there, Flyovercountry. I’d be quite bored if I lived in a world of complete consensus all of the time. Debate ’tis what makes life interesting, because there are always various angles and repercussions to be examined. With most, but apparently not all, you can disagree and not be the target of juvenile insults and phraseology. Either way, my hide and belief system is quite intact, and able to withstand anything.
And no fear that Shariah law will ever wield power over me. I would go down, kicking screaming biting fighting. But that fight I take to Congress and the elected elite, not property owners.
I attempted to follow the money trail thru SA before I originally commented on this on other threads. I found nothing that necessarily raised an eyebrow. We do a lot of business with SE Asia, the Middle East… hang, even China. If I am to start some blind objection to foreign investment here in the States, where do I start drawing the line, if not at those that are designated enemies of the nation? In that case, it’s known terror groups and individuals, not nations or religions at large.
But I’ll accept your agree to disagree statement, made with the grace that a few should endeavor to emulate.
HotAir and BigGovernment.com had article linking the funding to Saudi Arabia, I’ll go looking for the links after my next client meeting. It may be tomorrow before I can bring them to your attention.
MATA: hi, I meant, by” imposing their beleifs”. that building on around bloody grounds; i want to
note also, that no other faights express the desire to build a religous testimony, because they know that thoses who where killed where attach to multiple faights, this would explain that they cared enouph,sensitive to the extreme pain from familys and friends, from all around the GLOBE. IT’S this particular note of that diffrence between the IMAN’S faith and all the others, that give the “CUE” to their “INTENT”. buy 🙄
Maybe that’s because he had so many links raising questions about the radical Islamists trying to censor Americans. Sort of like what I am battling against here.
Sure, some groups want to stop the “Islamization of America” a goal with which I have some sympathy.
But it’s YET ANOTHER STRAW MAN to suggest that opposition to this monument to Mohammed at Ground Zero being dedicated on the 10th anniversary of 9/11 is that and ONLY that.
Where have I EVER mentioned Geller’s group as the only one with a valid opinion on this issue? Have I mentioned that group AT ALL?
Why is it that you insist on ignoring the warnings of Debra Burlingame and Walid Shoebat and even those of Dr. Jasser, a personal favorite of Wordsmith?
You and Wordsmith are being needlessly contrarian.
Shall we post this on the front F.A. page and give more readers a chance to weigh in?
Mike’sA: You and Wordsmith are being needlessly contrarian
“…needlessly contrarian”?? Excuse me, but who died and made you the conservative god of free speech? My personal opinions are not only not “needless”, but counter debate used to be considered healthy… to those with due respect for the 1st Amendment, that is.
Mike, you are truly making a fool of yourself here. Have a bit of pride, guy. What are you, 12? But it’s always a trip to see just how high your personal defensive shields go when someone dares to disagree. Nor that you care if you cast your schoolyard barbs at friend or foe. Interesting side of yourself you’ve been revealing. I think I’ll just sit back and let you continue to hang yourself with juvenile behavior. Word probably has more patience with adolescents than this ol’ broad does.
@Flyovercountry, in both my former blog, Sea2Sea, and in the FA archives is much I have said about the different factions of Islam temporarily uniting to fight a common foe, then slugging it out in the end. This is not news to me, and frankly I got tired of explaining to the novices that Shia and Sunni actually *do* work together when the end result benefits them mutually.
None of that has an iota to do with this particular construction unless, of course, you can connect the dots between the jihad movement and Rauf and his intent. The man is on record in his book that the Constitution is Shariah compliant. Oddly enough I got this from a very negative article I read on Pajamas Media from back in May, and before I commented one word on this bruhaha. Despite this lack of aggression in, supposedly, wanting to overthrow the US to make it Shariah law, that PJ author still dissed the text completely.
That same article wanted to take issue with Rauf’s opinion that “Muslims didn’t commit 911”. This is made abundantly clear when you read other commentary from Rauf that avers he doesn’t consider the 911 attack as any way Islamic, nor does he acknowledge these terrorists are followers of Islam as he and his flock subscribe to.
His father is the founder of another large Muslic cultural center in New York, the “96th St. Mosque”, or more formally known as the Islamic Cultural Center in New York. It was opened in 1989, and has run pretty much scandal free save some of the usual post 911 remarks that you heard from liberals, progressives, the anti-war movement, the terrorist and Muslims blaming US foreign policy. I think I’m pretty solidly on record INRE that argument being a bunch of horse manure.
But back to Rauf, the son. Is he much different than the liberals, progressives, the anti-war movement or other Muslims in his beliefs? Not that I can see. According to the PJ Media research, monies came not only from Qatar (which got the blanket “they are terrorist supporters” argument), but also from Holland’s Millennial Development Goals Fund, Carnegie Corporation, the UN Population Fund, Rockefeller Brothers and Hunt Alternatives.
Point is I do not see a “blame America” attitude in Raul that I don’t see in others that stand as elected officials in my Congress. I don’t read in his writings that overthrowing the US government is part of the agenda because that government and the Constitution is already Shariah compliant. I don’t see cash that’s being fed from jihad groups. And I don’t see that pro Palestinian supporters in the Free Gaza Movement are all jihadists, or a terrorist group.
But if ties to jihad money can be made, all this is gone in an instant with the freezing of funding from known terrorist groups. So far, that hasn’t been the case. And no one here has any evidence of that, save that Rauf… like ga’zillions of others… donated to Free Gaza Movement.
I reserve my emotions for my personal life, not politics. So it’s simply not enough for me to hear so many argue this is morally justifiable because a small fraction of Islam has it’s agenda. Well yeah… so the effin’ what? For heavens sake, I’ve been posting articles on that for years. And they certainly aren’t the only movement with despicable agendas.
But I deal with issues and the players one on one. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims. So I keep a wary eye out for the questionable, and do some homework on the individual issue. And that homework is not based on a blanket hysteria against anyone who is Islamic… even tho I don’t agree with their religion or their way of life. Nor will I accept that bad taste and insensitivity is enough to usurp equal application of law in this country. It’s a simple concept. Apparently too hard for those succumbing to pure emotions to discern without driving them into some bizarro world of self defense.
What I do believe is if they assimilate, and play by American rule of law, then I will give them the due that the Founders intended… freedom of religion and a melting pot of tolerance. And oh, BTW… the CIA and FBI will be keeping serious tabs on it’s operations, as well they should.
Gotta tell ya, you never know when a post is going to strike gold and produce great debate material….and this post was just a quick featured video to boot….but it’s been a good read.
I come down on the middle of this issue, I see good points made by both sides. Sometimes the conservative side of the aisle will become just as hyperbolic about the Islam issue as the left does with, well…just about everything conservative. I agree, this does our side no good. There are many many good people who are Muslim, and there most definitely is the radical Islamists…but to paint all Muslims as out to convert/kill all non-believers is just simplistic (and no, I am not asserting that this is what you were saying Mike).
BUT…..
I most definitely see Mike’s point that the choice of this site is suspicious.
In the end this Mosque should go up as planned. It was approved through the channels it had to go through and to try and take it away by “eminent domain” or any other means would lead to a slippery slope I am not willing to back.
If I was in New York I would protest the selection of this place, this site, as a site for a mosque….but I would not demand the government confiscate it. No way no how.
Just another Muslim attempt of gaining a foothold in this country. They have no remorse or intentions of peace. I think it is a disgrace to OUR NATION, and I would be ashamed of, and spat on anyone that even considered it.
BRETT:can you give me the bits and what of the video?. i cannot open the video cause i will crash on the first minute. bye 🙄
I agree with you Brett, except they already have footholds all over the country. This is the price we pay for “freedom”. I do not believe the founding fathers could foresee the separation of church and state taking us down a path of being over run by an anti-christian religion like Islam. I agree, it is a disgrace to OUR NATION and we should stand up and do something about it.
walid has written some /very/ interesting books. Very intellectual, but also very applicable from someone that grew up as a former-terrorist
Where’s Wordsmith? I seem to recall he hinted I was overreacting about this moque.
This man did say something interesting. Apparently, shutting down a mosque will infuriate the Muslime world. something to ponder, and a new found purpose for the future? How does one go about shutting down a center for the Religion of Piece?
I’m sure you all forgot, but speaking about religious buildings. This is a video of Serbian Christian churches that were destroyed by Muslim Albanians.
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3127933/8884152
Busy guy,
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/imam_unmosqued_0XbZMwCvHAVdRZEKgx29AK#ixzz0q4oXOy9v
@Missy: You mean this Imam isn’t the oh so moderate Muslim we are all led to believe he was?
I’m SHOCKED!
At the risk of incurring Mike’s wrath, I shall nest comfortably with Wordsmith on this one… as I did before. But again, like in the other thread, for completely different reasons which so many of you want to ignore because of the passion.
First of all, a word on this snap judgment. The Free Gaza Movement may be made up of those who are anti-Israel, but not necessarily jihadists. You’ll notice they have local affiliates in 24 countries, including four here in the US. So if this Iman supports it, are all of these people also jihadists? Afterall, you are playing the association game here to the max.
Fact is, not all of the Gaza aid flotilla ships are manned by jihadists. Remember there is genuine aid going thru as well, and Israel has let pass most of these flotilla ships in previous events. Are the nefarious trying to hide behind the skirts of the pro-Palestinian movements that are providing genuine aid, in order to sneak thru jihad supplies? Absolutely… which is why Israel needs to stop, search, inspect and stay a’top the situation. That is their right, and their duty for national security.
I have no doubt that Iman Rauf is pro-Palestinian. But he also has some Jewish rabbis in NY standing up for his character as well. Does he believe the US foreign policies contribute to the jihad movement? of course… then again, so do most Muslims and, for that matter, a monstrous amount of the liberal/progressive community. But they aren’t all jihad. So forgive me, but I still see absolutely nothing here, or in the past, that makes me believe this Iman is a firebrand who preaches jihad to his flock. Will this mosque become a jihad training center? Way too high profile. They will be under a particularly strong microscope.
But absolutely none of this “is he a jihadist, or not” chit chat has whit to do with their Cordoba mosque. Like it or not, this is a property owners issue… period. If the property is zoned for their intended use, then to prohibit it because of their religion is about as anti-American as you can get. Just as banning speech because you don’t like the content is anti-American. I know you all may think this is a cold way to look at it, but frankly, I’m more concerned wtih stripping rights of everyone when you start down this path.
In most building permits is the requirement that the surrounding neighbors are notified, and have hearings to raise objections to the planning council. That is where any objection should go…. and it should be up to the New York property owners in that region because it’s a local issue. The planning council may weigh the objections, but if it solely comes down to “it ain’t right”, the objections rightfully should be overruled. If the council sides with the objections of the neighbors’ emotions, then the building owners can take it to court… and they will. Just as they should.
Why do I believe this? I look ahead. Because one day your neighbors may not like your Christian religion, or your bloodline, or your choice of friends or politics….. and be empowered by this precedent to stop you from utilizing a building, or developing raw land in a way that conforms with zoning permitted uses.
Do you really want to travel this path? If you do, you may head down that slippery slope, sans my company.
You may not like Larry Flint, but he is the perfect example of how free speech and American freedoms apply to everyone, even when you don’t like what they stand for or what they say. You don’t have to like that a mosque is going up… yes, I agree is severely lacking in taste and sensitivity. But I choose freedoms without bias above being offended by their choice of location. And I leave the battle and the decisions to the neighborhood locals… as it should be.
MATA: hi, they should have you in the WHITE HOUSE, on the next election: because you know the law so much, no one can argument , when you come here and comment or AUTHOR a post, it tell of truth unquestioned by anyone. I WAS thinking if i may explain this: because the ennemies of AMERICANS are working so hard to impose theirs views including putting their moneys in winning their point, to impose their religion in any way they can: by diplomatie long trial, or by force: the freedom to show that it is not wanted in AMERICA by the majority, if demonstration of this power written in theCONSTITUTION of this land,which survive the last centurys to be just and fair to all AMERICANS; is not succesful, what is the next avenue for the people to have their rights, applied?. thank you. bye 🙄
@MataHarley: Tsk, tsk, tsk… The evidence is mounting that this Imam is a faux moderate Muslim.
You really want to stick with your ever weakening position?
Have some cake with your taqiyya.
Have a listen to Pat Condell and see if reality doesn’t dawn….
@Mike’s America:
Gee…thanks for 6 minutes and 9 seconds of my life wasted on listening to a religious bigot’s opinion on his version of reality. So what “reality” did you expect to have “dawned” on me from viewing that hate-spew?
Somewhere “in a cave”, bin Laden’s cheering him on.
http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.com/
Shocker! Ground Zero Mosque Imam Prominent Member of Free Gaza Movement
…The imam behind a proposed mosque near Ground Zero is a prominent member of a group that helped sponsor the pro-Palestinian activists who clashed violently with Israeli commandos at sea this week.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a key figure in Malaysian-based Perdana Global Peace Organization, according to its Website.
Perdana is the single biggest donor ($366,000) so far to the Free Gaza Movement, a key organizer of the six-ship flotilla that tried to break Israel’s blockade of the Hamas-run Gaza Strip Monday…
WORDSMITH: hi, no hate spew so far, i’m half way through, it’s all the truth as cold as it can be, bye 🙄
Since the above isn’t enough
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/05/911-mosque-imam-feisal-abdul-rauf-blames-christians-the-us-and-the-west-must-acknowledge-the-harm-th.html
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/ground-zero-imam-i-dont-believe-in-religious-dialogue/
Ground Zero Imam: ‘I Don’t Believe in Religious Dialogue’
Pajamas Media has uncovered extraordinary contradictions between what he says in English and what he says in Arabic that raise serious questions about his true intentions in the construction of the mosque.
Keep believing he’s not an Islamic fascist. Evidence suggests otherwise.
Sorry to say that’s a predictable response from you. Hence my opening sentence in my comment.
Let me caution you… don’t confuse me with those you like to simply slap and dash with sticks and stones insults, guy. I assure you, I am quite up to the task of playing your schoolyard games with condescending insults.
As I pointed out – and apparently you choose to ignore – I’m quite sure that Rauf shares the same views as more than a few lib/progs, and more than a majority of Muslims in being critical of US foreign policy. Therefore your attempt to make this all about me, supposedly defending the personal views of a “moderate Muslim” is misplaced. I don’t agree with those views personally. I have stated my personal feelings about this mosque being offensive on many an occasion. I just happen to place my priorities in a different place, and refuse to cater to hot headed emotions that result in dangerous injustice for our freedoms.
If you will re’read my comment, very slowly, you will find that my objections to this is because it is an ugly, anti-property rights movement that is extremely short sighted and hypocritical. If you can deny building owners their rights to develop within current zoning regulations because of their religion, or your personal opinions about what they are building, then your future is seriously in jeopardy when someone moves in next door to you, and wants to prohibit you building your Reagan monument in your front yard…. or starting a Christian community center. Make up any scenario you want, it comes down to the same thing. If you can fuel enough nationwide public opinion to negate an owners development rights with PC police thought, these terrorists have won.
So if you feel the need to hurl your childish remarks my way, I suggest you concentrate on battling me on what I put forth as my reasoning – property rights – and stop reading imaginary crap into my commentary.
@Hard Right: your link adds nothing to Missy’s, which pretty much says exactly the same thing. So every member of the Free Gaza Movement is now a terrorist? My my… our nation is filled with the same then, and you can begin with our own anti-Israel Congress members.
My point is, you can be anti-Israel, and not be a terrorist. Last I looked in this country, people can have differing points of view. I don’t happen to agree with that sentiment, but I dang well respect the rights of others to have that opinion, and I don’t label all of them terrorists. The only reason for attempting to link Rauf with this particular ship, loaded with the Turkish terror group, is to paint a broader brush stroke to increase public dissent. However, as I have pointed out, the Free Gaza Movement is not a terrorist group. Anti-Israel? Most likely. But not terrorists.
If Rauf is found to be an Iman, preaching jihad and facilitating training, I’ll mea culpa and side with you guys. In the meantime, he’s just a Muslim who’s not much different than the average lib/prog or other Muslims that aren’t terrorist training camp grads.
@Wordsmith: ditto….
@ilovebeeswarzone: Why Mike’sA wants to elevate an atheist, British comedian to any status is beyond me. Pat Condell, who I consider just another entertainer with an opinion, is an admitted atheist, and a member of the National Secular Society – an organization who’s prime existence is to campaign against faith in the schools. I assure you, what he does to Islam, he’s just as happy to do to Christians, Jews and Buddists.
@Hard Right: you keep piling on nonsense, guy. How about we deny property rights to anyone that doesn’t support Israel? That work for you?
@MataHarley: I’m not sure why you are so offended by the suggestion you may be the victim of taqiyya and may be ascribing motives to this Imam that are not in line with reality but you can’t bluff or bluster away the weakening of your position.
That’s not an insult. It’s an observation.
I’m sure you understand the difference.
@Wordsmith: Pat Condell has seen the ugly reality of Islamofascism at work in Britain.
He’s merely trying to warn us that the same thing is happening here.
I’m sure you don’t deny it and I don’t think it is “bigoted” to point it out.
Meanwhile, the Obama Administration is providing funds to a radical, can I say JIHADI, mosque in Falls Church Virginia:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2516757/posts
Ah, but perhaps there are one or two moderates in that crowd so we should cut them all some slack?
@Mike’s America:
I’m responding directly to what Condell says in the 6 minute video. He doesn’t make a distinction between Islam and the term you just used, “Islamofascism”.
And your arguments are just plain weird when addressing someone like me who reads from much of the same conservative blogs as you, along with the typical posts warning of the dangers of Islamisation (some of which I’ve posted, myself). Londonistan is soooo 2006. So please don’t talk to me as if Islamisation of Europe is some novel concern I’m unfamiliar with. I’ve been sitting in on the conservative amen chorus for some time now, listening to all the familiar anti-Islamic tunes sung over and over again. I share some of those concerns; others I find gives validity to those on the left and in the center who look at some of us and think we are just conspiratorial nuts and bigots. And sometimes, I’m finding it harder and harder to disagree.
Telling me Pat Condell “has seen the ugly reality of Islamofacisms at work in Britain” is like telling me Al Franken has seen “the ugly reality of rightwing extremism at work in the United States” and Bill Maher has personally seen “the ugly reality” of the Bush Administration and Christianity because he lives here; therefore, they have automatic credibility and I should believe their point of view. That is the logic you’re selling me with. They have an opinion like Condell has an opinion.
@Wordsmith said: “So please don’t talk to me as if Islamisation of Europe is some novel concern I’m unfamiliar with.”
Where did I suggest that you were unfamiliar with the problem?
I said “I’m sure you don’t deny” the danger. How did you morph that into an accusation you are not informed?
Seems to me you and Mata are overly sensitive to the fact that your earlier defense of the Ground Zero Imam is based on the faulty assumption that the man is one of those moderate muslims we all wish we had more of.
Obviously, I don’t share that opinion. But that’s merely a side issue here. The issue is whether it is appropriate to build a monument to Mohammed in the immediate vicinity of Ground Zero and to dedicate it on the 10th anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
Perhaps in your broad understanding of the Islamic world you could share with us how this monument might be interpreted in the Muslim world. Is it not possible that many radicals might see this as a victory monument to their cause?
Jihadis don’t really appreciate the subtle differences you and Mata wish to see here. Besides, when this Imam travels in Arab lands he’s often quoted as saying things that are the opposite of what you might expect from a moderate.
I hope you won’t be offended if I side with Debra Burlingame and her assesment of the Imam:
Do you really want me to recount the many statements by Rauf that lead many to believe he’s not the moderate you want him to be?
This guy says one thing in English and another thing in Arabic. How often have we seen that before?
Mike, I’m going to have to agree with Wordsmith here. You address both of us as if we braindead to realities of the global Islamic jihad movement. That, in itself, is offensive.
Your comment about “cake with your taqiyya” is just a few degrees different from your usual “koolaid” comments to resident liberals here. In fact, whether you meant it as me, supposedly delivering lies, or me as a victim of lies, it’s remains an offensive personal, and demeaning comment either way. Either one is a schoolyard taunt, assuming my intelluctual faculties are somehow disfunctional and inferior to your personal brillance.
I see no “weakening” in my position, or Wordsmith’s. However I do see an increase in your defensive shields. Feeling a tad exposed, perhaps? I’d say that the debate over this on Curt’s Iran post (yup… we got waaaaaay OT there…) yields proof that many understand the point I am making about this mosque, and the dangers of selective restriction of property rights of owners if they are of a certain flavor. You prefer to focus on a view you imagine I have, as if I somehow personally sanction this cleric.
Note, this is not about profiling, which I see an inherent logic in most situations. This is about one set of rights for a particular flavor of US citizens because the rest of the nation doesn’t like their religious beliefs. And if/when that mosque gets built, they should be under a serious microscope… as should all mosques, in my opinion. If they are the chosen grounds for jihad conversion, we should watch those locations.
But I am concerned about this Islamophobia that seems to be running rampid with some conservatives. This does not bode well. When you actually approach some with imposition of restricted civil or property rights, many come close to admitting they are okay with that as long as it’s Islam. OMG…. WTF?
Disdain and/or fear of any particular religion or cult is never healthy. And advocating special rules for the same, because of that disdain/fear, is simply not the American way. As their freedoms go today, there go the rest of ours tomorrow. And I’m sure you can understand that reality… even if it doesn’t fit into your talking points here.
Again I will say that the main thrust of my oppposition is because of discrimination in property rights. Again I will repeat I don’t agree with this clerics position. But unlike you, I don’t feel the need to, and I don’t advocate abrogation of his rights.
I will, however, point out that no one has provided a lick of proof that this cleric advocates jihad in his teachings. You have merely demonstrated that he shares the same views of the US that the lib/progs and many Muslims do. BFD
But apparently, if he’s not flying the flag and doing a rah rah USA, he should be denied property rights. These owners hurdled every legal process, got almost unanimous approval of the council, and the neighborhood denizens were involved. But none of that means anything to you, who’s not even a resident, because you’re offended. Who’s the intolerant one, Mike?
While your Alinsky tactics are improving, you might want to try pulling the wool over the eyes of those less read.
@MataHarley: Thanks for confirming ONCE AGAIN, that you are overly sensitive to the weakened position you hold regarding this monument to Mohammed at Ground Zero.
This isn’t Islamophobia, or bigotry but a recognition that this mosque, built at this site is not only inappropriate, but offensive and counterproductive to winning the war on terror by giving the radicals a symbol to rally around.
I have a clear record of supporting moderate muslims. Wordsmith, who knows that record well, can attest to it. If you would like, I can share with you my posts on the subject. Surely, you are not accusing me of being Islamophobic?
Is it possible that you are creating bigoted straw men to avoid dealing with the reality here?
Do you dismiss Debra Burlingame as Islamophobic? The same for Walid Shoebat?
P.S. This isn’t about property rights. This is about right and wrong. There is a difference. The protestors have been very clear the Imam has the RIGHT to build but should not do so.
Let’s stop creating straw men here unless you are applying for a job with the Obama Administration!
Me thinks you doth protest too much, Mike. It’s too bad we can’t use your ever increasing defensive shield on the borders, effectively making it nigh on impossible for illegal entry into the States.
Mike, it’s not that I don’t think you actually think I’m not informed; but when you wrote “Pat Condell has seen the ugly reality of Islamofascism at work in Britain.”, the way it came across when I first read it, due to me being “overly sensitive”, is that “the ugly reality of Islamofascism at work in Britain” is a new concept on me. I guess I read it in a bad light. I disagree with Condell’s rant in the video.
I haven’t gone forward or back either way. So far, I just see people on the right wanting to read into things what they want to see and believe.
MataHarley said it perfectly in comment #10:
What is not to understand in that answer?
Not wise; and predictably provocative. I would have recommended against it. I guess I don’t have confidence in my fellow American citizens not to reduce themselves to ethnic and religious prejudice, here. It is just asking for trouble.
Insensitive, too; but if the motives behind the decision are based upon good intentions, they might have been blind to the sensitive nature of this. Who knows? They don’t see Islam as having attacked us on 9/11. Unfortunately, many Americans associate 9/11 with Islamic terrorism with emphasis on ISLAM.
It will be now, due to the vocal, meda-attention-sucking opposition to the building of it.
It provides propaganda fodder to those who wish to convince fellow Muslims that America is at war with Islam, and is persecuting their faith. Zawahiri couldn’t have scripted this better.
Every instance of a “hate crime” against a Muslim in the States, a mosque being vandalized, is a win for the jihad movement. It validates their conspiratorial beliefs about America’s imperialism, racism, persecution of muslims.
al Qaeda looks upon secular Islamic societies and Muslims living here in the States as apostates. Any Muslim who participates in our way of life is a traitor. An apostate Grand Mosque at Ground Zero is a thumb in the eye to bin Laden and Zawahiri.
He is talking to a different audience, after all; but I don’t expect him to espouse my political beliefs regarding American foreign policy. Reference back to Mata comment #10. Now if you can find me something where he is in the Middle East speaking in Arabic for Muslims to go out and slay Christians, convert and kill non-Muslims, embrace the jihad, etc., then you have my attention.
This is like citing Mike’s America….just another opinionist who shares your belief, just as you cited Condell. These are her words and interpretations.
How often have we seen those with agendas to pick and choose and interpret how they wish to see things?
I don’t know enough about Imam Rauf to formulate an adequate opinion of him one way or the other; what I’ve been reading on him is mostly stuff coming out of the right side of the blogosphere. Reliably objective, I’m sure.
That’s an interesting strawman you present, Mike. Especially in light of the reality that both Wordsmith and I have expressed we do not share, nor sanction, the Imam’s views on American foreign policy. And both of us have stated that we believe it is both inappropriate and insensitive. I find many things people do both inappropriate and insensitive. I am not willing to shatter our civil rights over that sensitivity.
You do, however, overlook the title of this thread: NYC Ground Zero Mosque Founder Exposed? Curt, in his wisdom, did put a question mark at the end of his headline. Your opinion has no question mark… you have pronounced him guilty. Neither Wordsmith, nor I, have found any such evidence that he preaches jihad. Merely that he shares a common opinion with lib/progs and our own POTUS.
Really? Let’s examine the rhetoric, shall we? From Andy McCarthy on June 1st.
hummmmm a “trap” that one more mosque in this location will lead to turning America into a “shariah society”. Talk about a leap into hysteria. I don’t know about you, but as a conservative, I put as much distance between me and this statement as I do neo-Nazis and KKK members who may agree with conservatives on any particular issue. None of that statement reflects how I view this mosque.
In fact, I don’t see McCarthy acknowledging their property rights at all. I see him blaming the council as being ignorant dupes instead of them actually following the rule of law. I’d say the overwhelming majority of them knew there were no legal grounds for denying the permit…. whether they approved personally or not. This is no different than a judge ruling on a case based on evidence, and not personal opinion.
Now, a contrast between a couple of comments:
From Charles Haynes at the Herald Net
Sometimes, Mike, you need to take a close look at those in your midst, and their intent. While some are genuinely wishing to take the only legal course… apply peer pressure to force the building owners to change their plans…. others are seizing on it to fuel their Islamophobia.
Wah! Wah! Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah!
The more you two attempt to justify your position, the weaker it gets.
You seem DETERMINED to erect straw men arguments rather than deal with the reality of a monument to Mohammed at Ground Zero.
Did I miss something in the flood of verbosity where you refute what Burlingame and Shoebat have said?
If so, please repeat it without burying it.
Also, did we miss Wordsmith’s recognition of my desire to support moderate Muslims?
Should I now start to provide links to those posts?
Come on you two: Don’t you have anything better to do than defend this weak position?????
@Patvann: Does that mean you are in agreement with Mata?
If so, please show me where I have been lax about the issue of border security.
@Mike’s America:
😆
@Mike’s America:
Sure.
Why’d you call me out on comment #5? Like pushing buttons? Carrying disagreements over from previous threads?
Nice, reasonable letter in the NYTimes:
@Wordsmith: You just want to keep stirring that pot don’t you?
I would think after the disclosures about the Imam’s statements on Shariah, religious diversity and his connection to the Free Gaza provacateurs you might want to walk back some of those claims about this guy being a moderate.
And since you asked here’s a few of things I have been saying about supporting moderate muslims over the years:
I am sure I have a lot more examples, but that’ll do for now.
As I always, have, I support moderate muslims. I just have real and GROWING questions about whether this Imam is one of them. If he wants to build his mosque somewhere else fine. But not as a monument to Mohammed at Ground Zero opening on the 10th anniversary of the attacks.
Surely, the negative symbolism of such a move isn’t lost on you?
MIKE: hi, IT seems to be easyer for the muslim IMAN to be beleived, than to an ELITE TRUE AMERICAN like you have shown yourself to be in all your posts: I had to mentioned that. bye 🙄
@Mike’s America:
I know you’ve posted these before. I just love seeing ’em in cyberprint.
I understand the perception of “negative symbolism” here. But what I also see in the rhetoric of opposition of some people is bigotry. And they can’t even see it!
With all the din being made by Geller and company, ya’ll have now got my attention and I’m tempted to make a post in favor of the Grand Mosque, whereas before I was ambivalent and on the sidelines about it, mostly thinking this isn’t a smart idea and only asking for trouble.
And I know there will be stupid people out there who will resort to vandalism and civil rights violations, harming the conservative movement politically.
They won’t be hurting Islam. They will be hurting themselves and doing a huge favor for al Qaeda and affiliates.
al Qaeda failed to rally 1.5 billion Muslims under the banner of jihad and the siren call of martyrdom. Maybe y’all will succeed where they had failed, by becoming what Zawahiri and bin Laden have been claiming all along about the West and its mistreatment of Muslims.
Islam plays a component in those who truly are our enemies; but some of these terrorists aren’t even pious Islamists and are motivated by other factors, related to ethnicity, culture, geo-political ingredients. But Islam remains the convenient scapegoat. Even in the absence of the Islam factor, men like Ramzi Yousef, Arafat, Saddam would still be murderous thugs. Others, of course, are driven primarily by Islamic religious fervor of the violent variation. But when that accounts for only a small fraction of 1.5 billion who call themselves practitioners of Islam, there is indeed some truth to be said about the much ridiculed PC-truism that “Islam is being hijacked”.
The global jihad movement should be marginalized, religiously. They are the biggest killer of Muslims. But you only strengthen their propaganda claims regarding the decadent West persecuting their faith, and give them credibility when you attack the whole of Islam.
WORDSMITH: please don’t make thoses faces to MIKE, he has a ligitimate argument for your comments; you are moderate, it’s ligitimate also. but we acknowledge what the muslim should not do, and what they should do in this beautifull AMERICA for AMERICANS; they are not acting like true AMERICANS, so until they do, they should not impose their beleifs to this LAND OF THE BRAVES. THEY shoul show grattitude to all the people; they are not spilling their bloods or dying
for AMERICA, and until they do, they should be thankfull to all and learn the CONSTITUTION, which is the reason for their FREEDOM. they must EARN the respect of the AMERICANS,who dont get fooled by them, but just very tolerants, which has it’s limit too. bye 🙄
Ms. Bees, they aren’t “imposing” their beliefs, nor running around forcing conversion to Islam. They are developing a building that houses community services, a mosque and a museum. And they did so by following our rules of law and procedure. I don’t believe there’s any plans for jihad training in their plans either, but I’m sure the feds would be keeping a close eye on that place.
In what you suggest, and what they are doing, there is a huge difference.
@ilovebeeswarzone: Thank you Bees for that vote of support.
@Wordsmith: I am not denying that there exists bigotry against Muslims. Are you denying that there are also Muslims who say one thing in English and another in Arabic like this Imam?
When you say
First: No one says “ya’ll” anymore and I live in the Deep South.
But let’s put that aside.
Aren’t you admitting that you are merely taking the pro-mosque point of view simply to irritate people whom you see as bigoted toward Islam?
Surely, you aren’t tarring me with that brush. I know you are not.
So, why can’t you see that the opposition here isn’t entirely focused on blocking a mosque in New York. Just one at Ground Zero?
How many mosques are there in New York? Dozens, hundreds or more? How can anyone with a straight face say we are “persecuting” Islam by suggesting this mosque be built at another site. Especially so since mosques are everywhere?
Had you been alive at the time, would you have supported a Japanese Cultural Center built at Pearl Harbor just a few years after the attacks?
I know you are not an appeaser. I went back and looked at what you said about the Danish Cartoons and South Park:
http://hammeringsparksfromtheanvil.blogspot.com/search?q=danish+cartoons
But should we now let any Muslim group, whether moderate or not, build a mosque wherever they want? Will it make them happy or will the radicals just demand more?
Question: Doesn’t it trouble you that the Imam behind the Ground Zero mosque supports universal Shariah law?
Let me know when we build a Christian mega church in Mecca and I’ll reconsider my view.
Maybe you should look a little closer at that Gellar grassroots organization title, Mike. It’s not “Stop the Ground Zero Mosque”… it’s “Stop the Islamization of America”. And again, you wish to make America’s standards the same as Saudi Arabia’s when you bring up Mecca. What SA does is their onus to bear. I do not wish to see the US behave the same.
And, for your information, I have tons of friends and relatives in the south who quite freely use the expression “ya’ll”. Ya’ll oughta get out more… LOL
Mata and Wordsmith, it is not often that I disagree with you guys, but this is definately one of those times. This mosque represents so much more than a mere gathering place for worship and spritual reflection. This is a self declared foreign enemy planting their flag upon U.S. soil. They are planting that flag on the very spot that they viewed as our symbol of freedom and economic success. They are choosing as the date to plant that flag the 10th anniversary of what they view as their great victory in tearing that symbol down. They have announced this truth in both english and arabic. Please do not insult the intelligence of everyone reading this blog by pretending that this is not the case.
As for you constitutional arguments, they hold merrit. I agree that it is a slippery slope, but the constitution was meant for American Citizens, and not foreign enemies of our Nation. The monies pouring into our country for this monstrosity are mostly from foreign sources. That slope is even more slippery. If we recognize this fact or not, we are at war with islamofacists. As a matter of fact, the whole world is. One of the major problems is that they are doing most, if not all of the fighting. Another problem which I see is the definition of moderate muslim. All too often, I see the moderate muslims cropping up in federal terror investigations, money laundering scheemes, or just plain double speak in arabic news sources. That may seem bigoted to say, but the truth of the matter is not caring about politically correct sensibilities. If there are moderate muslims, let them join us in fighting against the islamofacists.
Come on now, Flyovercountry. I’ve racked up two with you lately…. :0)
But are you under the impression that the mosque is being built by Zawahiri or Bin Laden? Tell you what… as I said before, show me the evidence that this is the global islamic jihad movement building this mosque, and I’ll be happy to change my opinion. Not to mention that would be an easy thing to stop with freezing financial assets.
MIKE’S AMERICA: just now, i click on your link and i had a warning, that reporting an “ATTACK SITE” check this up. bye
@MataHarley:
To be fair, two times in year is nearly total agreement, statistically speaking.
No, I do not believe that Bin Laden or Zawahiri are building this mosque. This one is a purely Wahabist initiative. That being said, this is not a tin foil hat moment. Just because our new enemy has multiple factions, who all want to be the guys in charge after the fall of the west does not mean that they don’t all have a terrifying goal in mind. It just happens to be our good fortune that these folks aren’t ever going to be united or even coordinated in their methodology for any extended period of time. Part of the reason they can be defeated is that they insist on fighting each other nearly as much as they are fighting us. Make no mistake about it though, we are merely in the way of their ultimate goal.
As a side note, I enjoy your opinions and writing too much to see you silenced by Sharia Law. 😉
Not bad stats there, Flyovercountry. I’d be quite bored if I lived in a world of complete consensus all of the time. Debate ’tis what makes life interesting, because there are always various angles and repercussions to be examined. With most, but apparently not all, you can disagree and not be the target of juvenile insults and phraseology. Either way, my hide and belief system is quite intact, and able to withstand anything.
And no fear that Shariah law will ever wield power over me. I would go down, kicking screaming biting fighting. But that fight I take to Congress and the elected elite, not property owners.
I attempted to follow the money trail thru SA before I originally commented on this on other threads. I found nothing that necessarily raised an eyebrow. We do a lot of business with SE Asia, the Middle East… hang, even China. If I am to start some blind objection to foreign investment here in the States, where do I start drawing the line, if not at those that are designated enemies of the nation? In that case, it’s known terror groups and individuals, not nations or religions at large.
But I’ll accept your agree to disagree statement, made with the grace that a few should endeavor to emulate.
@MataHarley:
HotAir and BigGovernment.com had article linking the funding to Saudi Arabia, I’ll go looking for the links after my next client meeting. It may be tomorrow before I can bring them to your attention.
MATA: hi, I meant, by” imposing their beleifs”. that building on around bloody grounds; i want to
note also, that no other faights express the desire to build a religous testimony, because they know that thoses who where killed where attach to multiple faights, this would explain that they cared enouph,sensitive to the extreme pain from familys and friends, from all around the GLOBE. IT’S this particular note of that diffrence between the IMAN’S faith and all the others, that give the “CUE” to their “INTENT”. buy 🙄
@ilovebeeswarzone: Wordsmith’s page was an “attack site”?
Maybe that’s because he had so many links raising questions about the radical Islamists trying to censor Americans. Sort of like what I am battling against here.
@MataHarley: You’re clinging to straws.
Sure, some groups want to stop the “Islamization of America” a goal with which I have some sympathy.
But it’s YET ANOTHER STRAW MAN to suggest that opposition to this monument to Mohammed at Ground Zero being dedicated on the 10th anniversary of 9/11 is that and ONLY that.
Where have I EVER mentioned Geller’s group as the only one with a valid opinion on this issue? Have I mentioned that group AT ALL?
Why is it that you insist on ignoring the warnings of Debra Burlingame and Walid Shoebat and even those of Dr. Jasser, a personal favorite of Wordsmith?
You and Wordsmith are being needlessly contrarian.
Shall we post this on the front F.A. page and give more readers a chance to weigh in?
“…needlessly contrarian”?? Excuse me, but who died and made you the conservative god of free speech? My personal opinions are not only not “needless”, but counter debate used to be considered healthy… to those with due respect for the 1st Amendment, that is.
@MataHarley: I see you have run out of ideas to support your WEAK position!
Did I miss something in your brief reply above? Did you find some endorsement by me of Geller’s group?
Why not save yourself the trouble and admit once again: “MIKE YOU ARE RIGHT?”
Admit they shouldn’t build this mosque at Ground Zero and dedicate it on the 10th anniversary of 9/11.
Admit that this Imam isn’t the moderate some suggested he was.
Wordsmith has already unburdened himself by admitting that he took a contrarian position on this despite his earlier ambivalence.
Why not unburden yourself and agree that perhaps YOU ARE WRONG?
Why not take all those straw men arguments and use them to sop up the oil spilling into the Gulf.
Or do you have some insight that Debra Burlingame, Walid Shoebat and Dr. Jasser are not privy to?
The truth shall set you free and I stand ready to be your liberator!
Would it help you if I added a sting of happy emoticons?
😉 😐 😈 🙄 😳
😆 💡
Mike, you are truly making a fool of yourself here. Have a bit of pride, guy. What are you, 12? But it’s always a trip to see just how high your personal defensive shields go when someone dares to disagree. Nor that you care if you cast your schoolyard barbs at friend or foe. Interesting side of yourself you’ve been revealing. I think I’ll just sit back and let you continue to hang yourself with juvenile behavior. Word probably has more patience with adolescents than this ol’ broad does.
P.S. I got one of these “unsafe site” warnings too.
I wonder if the Muzzies have this post tagged for censorhsip?
@MataHarley: Tsk, tsk, tsk!
Calling me names yet decrying puerile insults is just proof of the emptiness of your position.
Is Burlingame wrong?
Is Shoebat wrong?
Is Dr. Jasser wrong?
Is this Imam a moderate who we should support?
Being an “ol’ broad” doesn’t excuse you from putting forward a coherent defense of your postion.
Sadly, when you toss away the straw men, you haven’t got a defense.
@Flyovercountry, in both my former blog, Sea2Sea, and in the FA archives is much I have said about the different factions of Islam temporarily uniting to fight a common foe, then slugging it out in the end. This is not news to me, and frankly I got tired of explaining to the novices that Shia and Sunni actually *do* work together when the end result benefits them mutually.
None of that has an iota to do with this particular construction unless, of course, you can connect the dots between the jihad movement and Rauf and his intent. The man is on record in his book that the Constitution is Shariah compliant. Oddly enough I got this from a very negative article I read on Pajamas Media from back in May, and before I commented one word on this bruhaha. Despite this lack of aggression in, supposedly, wanting to overthrow the US to make it Shariah law, that PJ author still dissed the text completely.
That same article wanted to take issue with Rauf’s opinion that “Muslims didn’t commit 911”. This is made abundantly clear when you read other commentary from Rauf that avers he doesn’t consider the 911 attack as any way Islamic, nor does he acknowledge these terrorists are followers of Islam as he and his flock subscribe to.
His father is the founder of another large Muslic cultural center in New York, the “96th St. Mosque”, or more formally known as the Islamic Cultural Center in New York. It was opened in 1989, and has run pretty much scandal free save some of the usual post 911 remarks that you heard from liberals, progressives, the anti-war movement, the terrorist and Muslims blaming US foreign policy. I think I’m pretty solidly on record INRE that argument being a bunch of horse manure.
But back to Rauf, the son. Is he much different than the liberals, progressives, the anti-war movement or other Muslims in his beliefs? Not that I can see. According to the PJ Media research, monies came not only from Qatar (which got the blanket “they are terrorist supporters” argument), but also from Holland’s Millennial Development Goals Fund, Carnegie Corporation, the UN Population Fund, Rockefeller Brothers and Hunt Alternatives.
Point is I do not see a “blame America” attitude in Raul that I don’t see in others that stand as elected officials in my Congress. I don’t read in his writings that overthrowing the US government is part of the agenda because that government and the Constitution is already Shariah compliant. I don’t see cash that’s being fed from jihad groups. And I don’t see that pro Palestinian supporters in the Free Gaza Movement are all jihadists, or a terrorist group.
But if ties to jihad money can be made, all this is gone in an instant with the freezing of funding from known terrorist groups. So far, that hasn’t been the case. And no one here has any evidence of that, save that Rauf… like ga’zillions of others… donated to Free Gaza Movement.
I reserve my emotions for my personal life, not politics. So it’s simply not enough for me to hear so many argue this is morally justifiable because a small fraction of Islam has it’s agenda. Well yeah… so the effin’ what? For heavens sake, I’ve been posting articles on that for years. And they certainly aren’t the only movement with despicable agendas.
But I deal with issues and the players one on one. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims. So I keep a wary eye out for the questionable, and do some homework on the individual issue. And that homework is not based on a blanket hysteria against anyone who is Islamic… even tho I don’t agree with their religion or their way of life. Nor will I accept that bad taste and insensitivity is enough to usurp equal application of law in this country. It’s a simple concept. Apparently too hard for those succumbing to pure emotions to discern without driving them into some bizarro world of self defense.
What I do believe is if they assimilate, and play by American rule of law, then I will give them the due that the Founders intended… freedom of religion and a melting pot of tolerance. And oh, BTW… the CIA and FBI will be keeping serious tabs on it’s operations, as well they should.
Gotta tell ya, you never know when a post is going to strike gold and produce great debate material….and this post was just a quick featured video to boot….but it’s been a good read.
I come down on the middle of this issue, I see good points made by both sides. Sometimes the conservative side of the aisle will become just as hyperbolic about the Islam issue as the left does with, well…just about everything conservative. I agree, this does our side no good. There are many many good people who are Muslim, and there most definitely is the radical Islamists…but to paint all Muslims as out to convert/kill all non-believers is just simplistic (and no, I am not asserting that this is what you were saying Mike).
BUT…..
I most definitely see Mike’s point that the choice of this site is suspicious.
In the end this Mosque should go up as planned. It was approved through the channels it had to go through and to try and take it away by “eminent domain” or any other means would lead to a slippery slope I am not willing to back.
If I was in New York I would protest the selection of this place, this site, as a site for a mosque….but I would not demand the government confiscate it. No way no how.