The war in Afghanistan is in trouble. Polls show that more than 50% of Americans don’t think the war is worth fighting. That means that more than half of the American people do not recall the scenario that brought American and NATO forces into the ass-end of the planet in the first place. Afghanistan was a country in anarchy where the Taliban and Al Queda ran rampant, and their unchecked tyranny brought about the 911 plot as well as earlier Al Queda attacks. People have forgotten and/or prefer to ignore that reality.
Admiral Mullen has called the situation in Afghanistan “deteriorating” and in jeopardy. Others say the entire mission is in doubt, and that the forces being used are woefully inadequate. They are correct. The purpose of US and NATO forces is to hunt down Al Queda and provide security from their Taliban allies, but there are not enough forces for that mission.
This leaves President Obama an ugly choice-the kind of decision where he has historically sought compromise at the expense of decisiveness. He can either abandon the mission, pull out American forces, and live with the consequences of Afghanistan returning to its pre-OEF condition (a condition that directly led to the 911 attacks as well as others), or he can decide to fight the war by sending more troops, spending more money, and convincing more than half the American people that the price in blood and treasure is worth it.
Obama is a charismatic man. He is also head of the party that contains the bulk of the anti-war movement. If anyone can convince the anti-war movement to be silent, he can (and has), and if anyone can use charisma to inspire a nation to wage war…he can. However, he lacks the will, and his supporters lack the will, and half the American people have lost the will.
Can Obama revive that will to fight? Can he make the decisive decisions that war requires? Will he return from his quasi vacation and lead the nation at war, or will he spend more time talking about cash for clunkers, a stimulus that doesn’t stimulate for years, and healthcare bills that he’s never read?
Make no bones about it, there are huge domestic problems here at home, and he needs to focus a great deal of energy on them (thankfully, he has his army of Czars to help), but wars don’t wait. History can’t be paused.
Historically, it takes about 6 months from the moment a President decides to make a major military offensive until the forces are in place and the full effect of the offensive can begin. If President Obama were to decide on a major military change in course today, it wouldn’t start to take full effect until February or March 2010. However, that gives any potential Obama-offensive only 8 months to completely turn things around before the mid-term elections where Democrats will be held to account for their control of Congress, their failures, their broken campaign promises from 2006, and the state of the nation in 2010. Making matters worse is Afghanistan itself where almost nothing is militarily possible for either side during the winter months from October to March. The idea that a major, modern, American-military force can deploy into Afghanistan during the winter, and prepare for a Spring offensive is optimistic at best.
The enemy doesn’t sleep. The time for decision on Afghanistan is at hand: stay or go?
Fight or flight?
get more forces in, or get everyone out ala Yorktown, Dunkirk, or Saigon.
Author of “Reparations and America’s 2nd Civil War
Reparations and America’s 2nd Civil War: Malensek, Scott: 9798864028674: Amazon.com: Books
GaffaUK, what side of the pond are you on?
Trooper, Gaffa is a liberal Brit, residing in Australia.
Gaffa… this isn’t a “discussion”. This is you, insulting my country, my military and our commanders in chief, lying about whether we abandoned Afghanistan. You do this despite facts that fly in the face of your lies…. which you call “whining”. Interesting concept… facts as “whining”.
Instead you acknowledge the facts, then weave an alternative scene to continue to justify your disdain of America and our then POTUS. Your intent… ala “abandon” vs “drop the ball”… cannot be masked by your attempt to parse words. Our task in Afghanistan originally was to clear out the Taliban, and the int’l community wanted the security and nation building tasks. We did our job. Clearly the int’l community did not. Yet again, you say this is *our* fault.
Yet when I point out that NATO has been in control, not the US (i.e. in Gaffa-speak, “whining”), you make a wise crack about “would you jump off a cliff” if the liberals told you to.
So who’s the “childish” one?
Point blank, I will not sit here and listen to you lie and accuse this country of ignoring, abandoning , “dropping the ball”, (or any other way you want to cast aspersion via language) Afghanistan – or any other nation, for that matter – when this country and our military has shed our blood, and gone way beyond the call of duty to protect so many of you… foreigners… and your countries’ sorry butts.
You know I usually carry on a decent discussion. But not when you, or anyone else, so boldly crosses the line. You deserve no civility from me. Nor need I cajole or humor you on your arrogant and misinformed disdain towards America and our leaders. I repeat, you come tell these lies to my face, insulting my country, and I guarantee you will not be happy with the response. You *are* a pampered and protected twit. And to boot, you are an ingracious twit. I’m not whining that you are an ungrateful ass. I do not waste my time on such pittance as your value in the world. But I’m angry beyond belief you have the chutzpah to even suggest that you do, based on obvious lies and spin.
I’d just as soon let you all protect yourselves from here on out. However that’s not America’s MO. You spit on us, then demand our help when you’re in trouble. We always respond, only to have you to spit on us again, or complain about how well that protection was implemented. I suspect we’ll continue to do it. Whining? No. But neither do I have to sit here and listen to your insults and innuendos, nor give you an ounce of respect.
You want civility and honest debate from me? Start playing with facts instead of arrogance and lies.
And BTW, your comment about Iraq “affecting” Afghanistan still indicates that, as an arrogant armchair general, you are still clearly clueless to military strategy and theatres of war against the global Islamic jihad movements. Hilarious, in a stunningly sad sort of way, that you believe it’s our fault that the int’l community “drops the ball” because liberating Iraq from a despot in order to weaken the global Islamic jihad movements is somehow unrelated and unimportant.
But narrow minds tend to have narrow focus.
Gaffa, let’s try this again:
So GaffaUk, what should the:
1. US do.
2. UK do.
3. NATO do.
We’re all ears.
“Trooper, Gaffa is a liberal Brit, residing in Australia.”
You’re kidding. The Aussies HATE the poms residing down under.
I’d hate to be him.
@MataHarley:
The “Blund-Uh from Down Under”
What a treasure.
gaffa, response from 4,800 feet ASL (above sea level) in Montana and from the highest point on my property.
Are you UK, Australian or just confused in general? Your politics are your business. US politics are none of your business. Get it? I have two guns in scabbard on my horse that Americans can own and Brits and Aussies can’t. I have one on my hip that I can wear into town. Aussies and Brits can’t.
We have a Bill of Rights and a Constitution that Brits and Aussies do not have. It is Mine and defended by ballot or bullets, has lasted for two centuries because folks that cared liberated Europe twice and voted stupid last November.
Your new Aussie PM is a punk. My new US President is a punk. Gordon Brown is a punk. We have that in common.
In my closet on my dress Blues I have five rows of decorations and an Australian
one. A Cross of Valor that an Australian SAS Colonel gave me in the Stans after an
OP went bad and I and all I had left got on a blackhawk, me, my comms guy and a spare
medic. I called in priority air support and got some. April of 02 as I recall.
So Gaffa when You figure out that Australia and New Zealand are now Free Nations and the sun sets every day on the Empire that does not exist, come to Montana and have a drink on me.
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/10/beccy_cole_post.html
Vid courtesy of Blackfive.
Gaffa this is for You.
Beccy Cole. She is proud to be Australian. She shook my hand and I did not wash it for a week.
[Courtesy embed – Aye]
@MataHarley
*sigh*
On this issue we probably agree on quite a few things….
1) Going into Afganistan was a necessary act
2) That we should not leave Afganistan – as has been suggested in this thread)
3) NATO have made a mess of the situation in Afghanistan
4) The US shouldn’t of handed control over to NATO
5) Certain other countries in NATO aren’t pulling their weight compared to US and UK
I would also speculate that you might even agree that
6) There aren’t enough troops in Afghanistan
So it seems you have seems you are getting incredibly steamed up on the below…
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/drop+the+ball
So you assuming that dropping the ball means abandoning or believing that I meant it as abandoning is absolutely wrong and distorting. Clearly Bush nor the US hasn’t abandoned Aghanistan because there are still tens of thousands of troops in Afghanistan. So please cut the abandoning bs as that’s not what I said at all nor meant – which I have already (I thought) made clear.
So Bush made a mistake which I don’t see Obama correcting
And what was that mistake? Yep handing over to NATO which I believe you agree with except you seem squeamish to place ANY responsibility onto Bush on that one. Does that mean NATO doesn’t have any blame – sure – they are the ones that are messing things up. But as a manager if I hand over a job to a junior which either I know they are not capable of doing right – or if I am too naive to see that they aren’t the right choice – then SOME of the responsibility falls on me when things go wrong. So let me be clear I haven’t blamed Bush as being TOTALLY responsible – I just said he dropped the ball.
I didn’t blame the US has a whole nor did I mention US soldiers – so I think you are again trying to misinterpret me and get upset.
As far as I’m concerned all the countries in NATO and the command structure of NATO itself who are supposed to be running the show in trying to clear out the evil Taliban and Al Qaeda – all share varying degrees of responsibility in how things are going.
@Ivan
1. Take back responsibility from NATO
2. Ensure the troops are better equipped.
3. Reform itself
@Ivan
I take it that you have never been to Australia then?
I always liked Americans because generally they are very friendly (more so than Brits – at least when you first meet them) but Aussies are even more so.
I haven’t had ANY pom-bashing at all since I’ve been here. In fact many of them want and do want to go the UK to visit and work. There is plenty of UK TV and culture over here mixed with some American and other influences. A lot of Aussies also have relatively recent British roots (I’m talking about parents coming over and not the original migration).
The only time you really get any pom-bashing in the media is over sport as they usually beat us. Except at the last Olympics we won more gold medals for a change and recently we won the ashes. The Brits are poor winners (not used to it) and the Aussies are poor losers.
So are you an American living in America?
@Old Trooper
British currently living in Australia. Nothing confusing about that.
Er…since when has Afghanistan not also been UK business seeing at there are thousands of troops over there? And since when can’t anyone comment on other countries? Have you ever commented on another countries business? So you have never expressed a view on genocide in Sudan, starvation in Ethopia, politics in Venezula etc etc. Get it?;)
You’re welcome to your guns.
That’s democracy for you
I’m not so sure about Rudd – how has he upset you? Well I prefer Obama to McCain – but we aren’t going to agree on that. Brown is a disaster – not only incompetent but as Chancellor he’s the one who paid using our money for the British costs of the Iraq War.
Yep I figured that out a while ago thanks. I’m still waiting for them to get the Union Jack off their flag and boot out the Queen.
@Old Trooper
Haven’t heard of Beccy Cole before but good song. I see that she is mainly country which I don’t really like but I do like a lot of female singer/songwriters – like Kate Bush, Tori Amos, Suzanne Vega etc. Also I agree with the sentiments she expresses in her song. Whilst I don’t agree with the political decision to go to Iraq – we should still support the troops in getting the job done. And any entertainers – like Stephen Colbert who fly out to entertain the troops is ok with me.
Australians are particularly fond of their troops.
Ivan
1. Take back responsibility from NATO
2. Ensure the troops are better equipped.
3. Reform itself
———————————————————–
Laughable.
“I take it that you have never been to Australia then?”
You’d be wrong. Terribly wrong. My mother’s family, huge, is in Australia. I’ve been there many times.
“I always liked Americans because generally they are very friendly (more so than Brits – at least when you first meet them) but Aussies are even more so.”
Yes, Americans and Aussies are friendly. Just stay out of Melbourne, you guys are HATED there.
Ivan
I’ve been to Melbourne and I know Brits who live in Melbourne and that’s more bs.
GaffaUK or where ever. I am at Half Way Camp on the way to Summer Pasture with over 600 head of cattle, Gods most stupid creations, next to Brits that went to Australia to escape taxes.
The Australian SAS is always welcome here and enjoy outdoor sports that involve firearms cold beers and grilled beef. They are part of the Band of Brothers that wear Jump Wings and have a proud history. Liberated Europe twice and are My Pardners.
There is no Brit Empire. It went away. There are no chocolate cup cakes on a cattle drive or tea.
Hey gdad, you are the price of The First Amendment. But I can offer you a job in Montana.
We have horses here. They eat and crap. You have a natural ability to shovel crap.
So it goes on….
@Old Trooper
I didn’t come to Oz to escape taxes.
And the British SAS?
No shit…lol
Well you should drink a tea to the old Empire as there would be no US of A if the Brits hadn’t colonised the Eastern seaboard. You wouldn’t be speaking or typing in ENGLISH now if they hadn’t. And no doubt what is now the USA would be some banana-style republic if Spain or France had been the primary roots. 😉
GaffaUK or AUS or whatever.
Arrogant turds like you stand out. You post at Mad Ogre and envy Americans.
NATO is a compromise of everything I ever fought for.,
End of discussion Shit head.
Were You Brit SAS? Most likely NOT.
Do not piss on my boots. Gaffa of not any service…I got you noticed and find another place to piss on. Punk.
Punk assed Gaffa.I got you tagged. You have No colonies and I just got up in Montana before sunrise shit head.
Coffee on and thoughts of going another few miles are in my head and doing that is easy.
Are you a piss fly or just a internet clown?
I am very real and You do not want to meet me.
I got you tagged.
Moving the goal posts about what you meant, Gaffa? Revamping your “dropping the ball” argument?
Why don’t you look back over your comment #41 which started this…. see anything in there that even sniffs of your newly discovered argument that the US errors in Afghanistan are because we passed the nation building and security of Afghanistan to NATO?
No… of course not. Because once I pointed out the folly of your “Bush dropped the ball argument”, that’s when you started arguing with me that NATO was “US led” and *our* responsibility.
Even that absurd argument took a few retorts back and forth until it finally sunk in that the US is not NATO. Of course, that blew your first argument, so you magically morphed into your new definition of “dropping the ball”… that “Bush dropped the ball” because he gave NATO the security baton and nation building tasks.
In fact, why don’t you show us any where, at any time, in any thread since you’ve been here where you’ve criticized the US for turning over the nation building and security to the int’l community and NATO as your reasoning for “dropping the ball”. I’m patient. Might take you a while to find what doesn’t exist.
You’re back stroking at a speed that would compete with Olympian swimmers.
Hopefully, with your “new definition”, you’re off the BS talking point that Iraq “distracted” the US from Afghanistan and so we “dropped the ball”. But somehow, I doubt it. I’m sure your next remark will be to defend the “Iraq as a distraction” argument as well.
That should conflict nicely with your own admission that the US is quite capable of fighting in multiple theatres simultaneously.
@Old Trooper
Ignoring your seemingly obsession with watersports – let’s just nail this LIE. I’ve never heard of Mad Ogre. So go on prove that I post at Mad Ogre otherwise stfu. lol
@MataHarley
Looks like you and logic aren’t close friends – let me take you through it – one painful step at a time….
Clarifying to someone who seems to think ‘dropping the ball’ means abandoning isn’t revamping. It called clarifying. I’m sorry if you don’t understand that expression.
Firstly – if I don’t spell out to you, (at least clearly enough for your ‘needs’) why I believe Bush dropped the ball and then when I explain why I felt he dropped the ball you ASSume it must be a ‘newly discovered argument’. Wow does that mean any points you make or elaborate on – that if they haven’t already been epoused by you on earlier posts are therefore ‘newly discovered’? REALLY poor logic there.
Secondly – in regards to sniffing – have a look at Comment 41
Hmmm no clues there that I might believe giving command over to NATO might be a mistake and that I have more confidence in US leadership than NATO. lol…gimme me a break.
lol you even agree that it was bad decision with your sarcasm ‘No shit sherlock’ but even then you blame the liberals and the international community not Bush! lol. What happened to ‘the buck stops here?’ I didn’t say it was the US SOLE responsibility – nor do I fully blame the US for NATO incompetence but I do blame the US for handing control over to NATO. Clearly I have criticised NATO and other countries.
bs. Where have I claimed that the US is NATO? Is that another ASSumption on your part or were you confused because if someone says that an organisation is led by a particular country then you ASSume that means they believe that organisation and country must be synonymous?! lol
Well we dealt with this point. But I repeat- I don’t actually need to. However of course I did on Comment 45 and there after. btw have a look my Comment 45 is my very NEXT comment after 41 when you started to take issue over the ‘dropping the ball’ remark.
Wow isn’t that clear enough for you?
Backstroking from what? I have been consistent. Again I’m sorry that 1) you seem to ASSume that dropping the ball means abandoning. 2) You don’t have the grace to except this as you have painted yourself into a corner. Prove to me where I have stated that the US has ABANDONED Afghanistan. I’m patient. Might take you a while to find what doesn’t exist. lol
What new definition? You are the one trying create a new definition out of ‘dropping the ball’. Apparently it means abandoned. ‘Hey Louis – hear about Jed dropping the ball on the project’. ‘What he walked out and completely abandoned the project!!!’. ‘No he just screwed up – he handed control to some kid in accounts’. Think about it. It’s really not as hard as you seem to be make out.
btw – I believe not only did the US drop the ball by giving command to NATO – I also think Bush did get distracted by Iraq. And no – distracted doesn’t mean abandoning or ignoring. It means I believe his focus was MORE on Iraq even before he handed Afghanistan over to NATO than it should of been. And not just Bush – also Blair and the big bad MSM before you ASSume I’m only blaming US. If you take that as some insult go ahead but don’t distort my words.
Hmm conflicts. Another failure of logic – I see. Let’s see what I wrote…
So in your view if Iraq “distracted” the US from Afghanistan then therefore it conflicts with the view that the US can fight two wars at the same time? It doesn’t conflict nor contradict. You can be able fight two wars and still be distracted more by one than the other. In fact I said it clearly when I mentioned PRIORITIES.
You’re a good researcher MataHarley but not so hot on logic.
I can’t take anymore notifications of new comments.
Then opt out of it….should be a link to click on your email that shows you how.
Gaffa, here’s the facts on record in many threads by you INRE Iraq and Iran
1: You believe Iraq was a mistake
2: You believe Iraq turned the US attention away from Afghanistan
3: You have *never* stated that it was a mistake to turn over Afghanistan to NATO until I pointed out to you that NATO has been in charge since the summer of 2006. Indeed, I don’t even think you knew.
4: Even when you did mention the “weakness” of NATO, you still ASSumed that the US leads NATO. Here your token “duh wuh” on the structure of NATO. Therefore, even the blame you give NATO… johnny-come-lately… you still assign to the US and GWB.
Considering that you have never commented on NATO and their failures in Iraq, your original “dropping the ball” refers back to your constant references that the US focused on Iraq.
The US focuses on Iraq because it was the a US led – really – coalition. The US participates in Afghanistan as a NATO allied force. THink you have that fact straight now?
It have never been my contention – and I am unanimous in this – that Iraq has “distracted” us from Afghanistan. We are fully capable of carrying on multiple theatres.
It has also been mypersonal contention that giving anything to NATO, the UN, or UN peacekeepers is an error. Frankly, I’d pull us out of the UN, the WTO and every “international” piece of shit agency that attempts to wield power over our Constitution.
I do not, however, consider it a diplomatic error on the part of Dubya because the way of the int’l world is to worship at the feet of one world government, and “multi-lateral” cures. Had the US continued to make it solely a US led endeavor and footprint, the coalition troops may have left anyway, and the rest of the world would not lend their support to Afghanistan. Remember all that crap we take about “unilateral” this and “unilateral” that?
We did our part clearing out the Taliban. NATO and the int’l community failed to nation build and keep that nation secured. We, however, had been begging for additional NATO troops since 2006, and finally sent in more of our own to make up for the rest of the lazy ass world’s downfalls… as usual. And what do we get from the likes of you? Criticism.
But of course. Didn’t I say you would do exactly what you just did? You want it all. Including trying to convince me that you had a clue NATO’s been in charge, and that you genuinely know how NATO is structured. Sorry… you blew that a long time ago. Showed your ignoramus cards.
The only blame you’ve added to your blame America/blame Bush mantra is now you want to “blame” him for participating in a multi-lateral takeover of Afghanistan. Congrats on adding another item to tick off in the future.
What a mental giant you are. You lie, you lie and then you lie again.
I repeat. You are a protected and pampered twit. And I’m at the end of discussing your armchair general delusions in order for you to cast aspersions as my country, my military and my commanders in chief. I return to my original sentiments that you may blow it out your lower orifice. I will not listen to you make up stories about this country, our military and our leadership.
@MataHarley
Yep
Yep
If I didn’t think NATO was in charge then why did I even mention NATO in my original post. You somehow ASSume that you saying that NATO has been in charge somehow means that I didn’t know that.
Well let’s look at NATO involvement…
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_8189.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO
As you didn’t state this then shall ASSume that you didn’t realise that NATO’s involvement started back in 2003. No I wouldn’t ASSume that and neither can you logically believe with any proof that I don’t know that NATO took full control in 2006.
And in regards to you earlier comment…
Why? Up until Nov 2006 Bush had control of congress. NATO’s involvement in Afghanistan started long before the Democrats won Congress. And by the time the mid-term elections happened control of Afghanistan had already been give over to NATO.
Hmm seems FOX hasn’t heard about that…
http://origin.foxnews.com/wires/2009Mar17/0,4670,EUFranceDefenseMinister,00.html
I guess that make FOX news liars then? lol
And specifically about US-leading the NATO effort in Afghanistan…
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/clay-waters/2008/08/07/nyt-cant-wait-deadly-u-s-milestone-500-deaths-afghanistan
How dare Newsbusters claim the NATO forces are U.S.-led! That’s a lie. lol
Let’s look at some figures – Troops in Afghanistan under NATO command as of this year…
U.S. 24,900 (42%)
U.K 9,100 (15%)
Germany: 4,220 (7%)
Italy: 3,650 (6%)
France: 3,300 (6%)
Canada: 2,830 (5%)
Poland: 2,000 (3%)
Netherlands: 1,770 (3%)
Romania: 1,025 (2%)
Others: 6,842 (11%)
Hmm – seems pretty much U.S.-led to me.
btw – UK, Canada, Netherlands, Croatia, Denmark and Estonia are contributing more troops per capita to NATO than US. Although US is still proportionally contributes more per capita than 21 other NATO countries.
And did you know that NATO was set up to operate in America and Europe but not outside it? SO it shouldn’t even be running the show in Afghanistan.
And did you know that countries in NATO are not contractually obligated by the Treaty to send troops to war? Just shows how weak NATO is. Just shows how NATO is not an independent organisation – it completely relies on members governments to send troops. So the excuse that the US is waiting for more troops from other NATO countries is actually a piss poor excuse for them having not enough troops numbers. There was nothing stopping Dubya or Obama putting more troops – indeed there are thousands of US troops in Afghanistan which aren’t under NATO control – however the total is still too low.
And did you know that NATO has been for the last 31 months been led by US Generals? Dan K. McNeill, David D. McKiernan (who was told to go by US Defense Secretary Gates) and currently Stanley_A._McChrystal? Hmm – so not US-led at all! So remind me – when did things start falling apart in Afghanistan? lol
btw. I’m still waiting for you to prove to me where I have stated that the US has ABANDONED Afghanistan. I guess I called your bluff on that.
@MataHarley
Most of your last post was coherent except you couldn’t resist going back to the dull insults. Seems you have an orifice-fixation like Old Trooper has a piss-fixation. lol. Ho hum…
Anyway maybe this will cheer you up….;)
Stupid Woman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n677ZbzC24
😀
Let’s see.. that would be the same post when you erroneously said that NATO was “US led” and needed to demonstrate “leadership”, right?
But of course you knew NATO was involved. You, however, were still uneducated as to just who NATO is, and what the US role in NATO constitutes. Perhaps, by now, you’ve figured out they are not one and the same just because we make up the bulk of the troop force.
duh
’bout time you did some homework. Will give you credit for johnny-come-lately research. You might want to try some better sites than Wiki, tho
Really? Try reading. From my comment #50:
Gaffa, because I am no fan of NATO, the UN, or any “int’l” governing body… in addition since I’ve been posting on this since my days at sea2sea… I am very aware of just when NATO *began* taking over in increments. Thus my statement in Comment #50 above… which you obviously missed. The partial takeover, other than my generalities, did not require espousing since the complete takeover in 2006 more than covered the bill. After all, all the sheeeet hit the fan in Afghanistan in the latter half of 2006…. post NATO complete control.
I see that I have called you and your opinions correctly, and that you agree. I will say we also have agreement that “thick people” never know when they lost an argument. You are a prime example. Thank you for the demonstration.
I do love you wish to call me a “stupid woman”. Lawdy, if I’m stupid, just what classification do you fall into? LOL
forgot this…
Kindly point out to me where I have ever pointed out Fox (technically AP, bozo.. as you have been behaving as such), or any other media, as the bastion of accuracy or in possession of historical facts? My disdain for the media is non-partisan. Fox tends to have a bit better track record than MSNBC. But then, who doesn’t?
Last thing, Gaffa. If you’re going to depend upon an equally stupid media (despite their call letters) as your mentor (as well as Wiki), you’re going to be even more impossible.
So that you know how NATO works, you may want to read up on the MC and how military strategy is determined by committee. Or, if you prefer pretty colors, you can read their dumbed down brochure… just made for people like you.
This way you’ll be smarter than those in whom you place your educational needs… then embarrass yourself using them as absolutes to justify your ignorance.
@MataHarley
So your whole assumption is based on that?! lol. Especially when I go to lengths to show how the operation in Afghanistan is US-led. But of course you ignore that. And that must then make such favourites as Fox and Newsbusters also liars. An expression that they and others use – something else you ignore. I never said that the US and NATO was ‘one and the same’. That’s a lie created and continued by you. Again focusing like an anal-retentive on the expression ‘US-led’ doesn’t mean that the US and NATO are the same. Again where’s your proof I believe that.
1) Er…since when has 2004 been 2003?
2) And comment 50? Wow that surely doesn’t count as apparently any of my posts after 41 to clarify such basic concepts as what I meant by ‘dropping the ball’ and ‘US-led’ don’t count. lol
3) Unfortunately it seems according to your logic if someone doesn’t state their knowledge on opinions in previous posts when challenged then that is somehow proof that they cannot possibly know that knowledge. Which is very bizarre. I presume you don’t know what the colour of penguins are unless you can prove it to me by showing a previous comment by you on an earlier post… lol. Puh-lease. Gonna have to do better than that Mata.
Yep the majority of the time from mid 2006 to now has been under US Generals. Oh I’m sorry I forgot the effort in Afghanistan isn’t at US-led and the US has no responsibility at all in Afghanistan since 2006. It’s all NATO’s fault. I guess that means countries who aren’t giving enough troops to NATO aren’t to blame either – because countries apparently don’t have responsibilities once NATO takes charge. Also Obama doesn’t have any responsibilty either. And in no way has George W.Bush put a foot wrong during the Afghan War and in no way has there been any noticable shift of focus from Afghanistan to Iraq during since 2003. /Sarcasm off. Keep that believing bs if you want – lol.
Not quite – I’m still waiting for you to prove to me where I have stated that the US has ABANDONED Afghanistan. I guess you are trying to hide that bogus ‘call’ under the carpet now?
I’m the guy behind the counter trying to get to through to the stupid woman;)
I see you didn’t click on the pretty colors brochure yet, Gaffa. Otherwise you’d understand that NATO is military strategy run by committee, made up of all NATO members.
2003 is when they started moving areas of Afghanistan over (specifically Kabul in 2003)… completed in 2004.
Your “dropping the ball”… since you’ve never known that NATO is not the US, nor that NATO has been in charge since 2006 completely… is simply translated to your recorded base beliefs here in the past that Afghanistan is a US/Bush failure because of what you believe is a “distraction”… or *ABANDONMENT*… for Iraq. Happy now?
Since you’re big on dictionary definitions:
And if your beliefs are that US failure is tied to the transfer of security to NATO, you would have stated so in your previous comments. Fact is, you can try and back stroke all you want, but you never knew. It has never been uttered from your keyboard prior to this thread.
No, NATO’s military strategy, nor their Barbie doll rules of engagement for the NATO troops, is *not*… I repeat *not*… determined by US generals.
No, gaffa.. you are not the man behind the counter (not that I bothered to click on your idiotic YouTube link). You are the brainless cockroach sneaking into the flour bags behind the man behind the counter.
BTW, gaff… need a shovel to dig yourself out of the BS you’ve submerged yourself in? I believe Old Trooper can help out with that…
While you’re in learning mode, Gaffa… INRE the ISAF in Afghanistan from the FAS documentation on Afghanistan, post Taliban governance.
So I’ll tell you what… I’ll give you my mea culpa here. The partial wasn’t completed until 2005 with the last western Regional command. That’s different than 2004.
Excellent! Now we can put this baby to bed!
@MataHarley
lol please. Do you REALLY believe that the Defence chief of Albania has equal weight to the Defence chief of the US? But..but…if he doesn’t then none of the NATO’s pretty charts show that. lol. How utterly naive you are. For example – it’s well known that until relative recently the EEC and when it became the EU was led/driven/dominated by the French-German Axis but of course you wouldn’t of found that in any of it’s literature.
NATO is US-led and that’s a good thing! (in case you are assuming that I am somehow knocking this. Oh but wait I didn’t state that before so somehow me stating this now surely makes that clarification void in your perverse logic. lol). NATO quickly became a way for the US to create a protective military barrier over Western Europe to stop the threat of Soviet Russia. US superpower might naturally dominated NATO and having Western Europe also gave the US a degree of security in the high stakes game of the Cold War. Later the French got huffy under de Gaulle because of US dominance of NATO and left only for France to come back many years later.
Or as Lord Ismay put it the goal was to “to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.”
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/international/jan-june09/nato_04-03.html
I didn’t claim that you have said Fox or any other media are the bastions of accuracy. What I am saying is that if you believe that I am LYING when I say the NATO is US-led that therefore any organisation such as FOX (or AP – jesus – do you think FOX would uncritically use an AP if it believe it contain such an apparent lie? lol) or Newsbusters are therefore LIARS in your opinion. So is that the case?
Utter rubbish.
For a start I didn’t say Afghanistan was a FAILURE at all. That’s you making stuff up AGAIN.
In no way can any sensible person equate distraction with abandonment. You are simply embarassing yourself again by purposefully distorting what I am saying – which is hardly complex stuff. You have extrapolated and created this bizarre theory that because I believe that the Dubya dropped the ball by handing the responsibility over to NATO and that was distracted by Iraq and because I haven’t said so before on a previous post (still waiting for you to show me proof that you know what colour penguins are) – that this somehow means I don’t know that NATO isn’t the US not that NATO has been in charge since 2006 completely. How very odd. That makes absolutely no sense at all.
Try taking a logic course.
If we were discussing what the founding fathers meant by certain passages with the Declaration of Independence – that would be one thing BUT you have the weird temerity to tell me what I mean by what I say. I am the best person to say what I am meaning and it’s you who is distorting the English language (Queen or American) to make some idiotic assumptions which you still cling to. I can only presume that you have dealt with others who feel that Afghanistan has been abandoned and so you have kind of confused yourself thinking all liberals think the same.
Again Failure. Wrong. Didn’t say that. I guess you have problems reading. Again no backstroking – my position hasn’t changed as anyone with an ounce of logic can see.
As for giving up control – nope – the US has handed over control from themselves to an organisation which they lead (and that’s lead – as in not fully control – but dominate. They still have a lot of control and influence in NATO) So again no abandonment there. The US has just make things more difficult for themselves and the Afghan war by using NATO.
As we are talking about US-led – so Generals don’t lead now do they? lol
Ah yes you would need a sense of humour to watch it – I guess you are only good for research and insults.
lol – well you tell me (distort and make up) what I am saying and Old Trooper lies about where I post. Seems you are both good shovellers – at least good at digging yourself further into your own bs.
Imagine that – the ‘Johnny-comes-lately’ catches out the NATO expert. lol
You’re flounding in your own lost cause by yourself now, Gaffa. From your first comment thread here to the end, and in the past, is revealing enough about your back stroking… how you believed from the beginning how the US controls NATO’s decisions, and still believe it now. I’ll let those who bother to read your comments… and can still pick themselves up off the floor from laughter… to decide for themselves just how in command of facts and logic you are. You had enough rope, and you used every inch of it to hang yourself.
Frankly, seeing to your personal education falls somewhere in the range of importance from “it would be nice” to “who the f*#k cares”. Lost causes just aren’t my bag, guy.
You just stumble along on your own fantasy path, and I care not. I shall make sure I give you your due “respect” in the future… which I assure you isn’t much.
failure: omission of occurrence of performance.. i.e. a failing to perform a duty or expected action
drop the ball: to make a mistake especially by failing to take timely, effective, or proper action
@MataHarley
I guess the last post got you stumped so rather than tackle each point you ignore them and resort to bland repetition of ignorance. I haven’t said US controls NATO – I have said they lead it as in they are not only a leading member but THE leading member. Shall I go and find the military expenditure of each NATO country and see how the US dwarves every other of the 27 members? lol. I guess you will keep to your pretty official charts and astonishing naievity.
Ditto
Personal education? lol – your seeing to someone’s personal education is where you try to bully & impose what YOU think their opinions are by stupidly or purposefully misinterpretating and distorting what they saying and then accusing them of backstroking if they stand up to you and continue to state their own opinions. Orwellian double-speak is the garbage you talk. Trying to use logic on you is a complete lost cause. Seems like you confused gdad’s comment#12 where he mentioned ‘abandon’ with me. lol. Yet IF that was the case – then you don’t have the DECENCY to admit that. Instead you try to say that I have said that Bush ABANDONED Afghistan and the war there is a FAILURE. Based on me saying that Bush dropped the ball. Utter rubbish. Goebbels would be proud of you – keep stating the same lie again again.
Again – you say is effectively meaningless. I did respect you before but now I see that once you paint yourself into a corner – you instead prefer to lie. I have ZERO respect for you. I respect other points of view – but I don’t respect people who fight with such poisonous terms that you have done – and still make bs up about me. You been busted and now you are running away.
I suggest you keep away from dictionaries – clearly you don’t know how to use them.
You take a word like failure and cross reference it with the expression ‘Drop the ball’ and expect them to line up without any context? lol. Well first English expression can have various meaning even for the same word. Then it depends on how that word is used. So yes – drop the ball is a mistake. In my opinion Bush’s case it was not taking effective action – i.e. transfering to NATO wasn’t an effective action. Did Bush fail – well so far the US, NATO etc have failed to find Bin Laden but I’m sure they will in time. But any criticisms of his or Obama’s performance doesn’t translate that the Afghanistan War is a FAILURE. lol.
Now no doubt that last paragraph was probably a little complex for you to understand so let’s turn the tables to illustrate what happens when a Bozo like you takes someone’s words and purposefully distorts them using a dictionary.
MataHarley said…#28
Now distort those words & context
So apparently MataHarley believes that to win the Afghan War you need find way to have a ethnic group suckle!!!
lol.
btw the Afghanistan does have natural resources.
Natural gas, oil, coal, copper, chromite, talc, barites, sulfur, lead, zinc, iron, salt, precious and semiprecious stones.
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/afghanistan.htm
Dumbass.
Looks like if basic research is failing you.
Now crawl away little cockroach….
Don’t flatter yourself, Gaffa
Can you say bored?
@gdad
#12
Hey gdad – I seemed to have stepped in something that I think belongs to you. Somehow the thing that has stuck to my shoe has, I think, senile-like confused your comments with mine. Any chance you take it back? Although having badly failed to pin your comments on me – it’s gone from scuttling randomly back and forth to abandoning any attempts to make any vaguely adult points and decided to go into an apparently apathetic childlike sulk. cheers:D