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drjohn
15 years ago
“If we are attacked again on Obama’s watch the first question we need to ask is how did Obama’s reckless political witch hunt of successful Bush Administration efforts to protect us contribute to our failure to protect ourselves?”
No, it will be because Bush angered the rest of the world with this terrible treatment and incited the attacks.
Nothing will ever be Obama’s fault- and that’s why he put it in Holder’s hands- to distance himself from untoward consequences.
Thanks for posting this and saving me the trouble, Mike. Reeling from the loss of a dear friend at the moment.
But the motives behind releasing this has been bothering me. Obama knew that these methods have resulted in success. There was nothing good that could come out of this. Exposure of techniques to the enemy, increased danger to our service personnel if captured (not that they were facing Geneva Convention treatment anyway…), and a disaffected CIA, leary of any pressure for fear they step over Obama’s line.
Then we have the POTUS/TOTUS himself… proclaiming from the onset he wasn’t going to be investigating the Bush admin. He then releases this and proclaims he won’t be prosecuting the operatives acting under order.
Like Pontius Pilate, he washes his hands to absolve his soul and conscience, and lets his minions go on the attack – do the dirty work – and take the responsibility instead. “It wasn’t me”, he will solemnly avow in the future.
What has he gained but increased risk to our security and soldiers, demeaning the US on the world stage, and making the CIA nervous about their already daunting tasks? (he made a special trip to Langley to reassure them he really *did* support their efforts…. okay)
And all for what? To throw a bone to his leftist supporters, out for vengence on an American administration.
I could not be more disgusted with this administration. Respect from him? He’s worn out that welcome mat with me.
Ike
15 years ago
If we are attacked again, after being protected for 7 years, and Obama allows those who protected the nation by gleaning information using “heavy” interogation to be prosecuted then Obama et al should be tried for treason.
The first job of a US President is to protect as best possible the citizens of this nation. The one thing I feared during this past election was having a President who did not put this country first.
I hope I am wrong.
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
You can’t protect the Constitution if the citizens protected by it are DEAD!
But I suppose if your first obligation is to appease America haters around the world you are less likely to defend the safety and security of your own citizens.
TammyL
15 years ago
I too am worried about his motives. There seems to be no logical reasons to put out these memos. Is he so vindictive and hateful towards a Republican administration that he would through the troops and the CIA over a barrel. If he signs onto the treaty that forces the United States to belong to the International World Court, then he has opened up a pandora box for lawsuits and witch-hunting prosecutions. It clearly said on the memos that these memos were highly classified.
P.S. Mata, sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.
Part of me is questioning whether he really does want an attack against us, so he can seize on another crisis to seize power. I don’t trust him or anyone in the administration. And the way that congress is just cutting under the table deals with lobbyists and private contractors to secure some of that stimulus money, I think he might be trying to distract America from the greedy congressmen/women who are shamelessly scarfing up goodies. It is like a feeding frenzy in congress.
He has no vision except one that will lead this country to hell (socialism) so he is focusing on the past. Lets see if his interrogation efforts will produce better results that BUsh’s. Four years is a long time for Obama.
Okies Kid
15 years ago
Referring to Mike’s America’s comment, Barry’s actions speak to his so called abilities and faithfulness to the USA. He appears to be amoral. His actions speak louder than all the words he spewed before being elected as president. His actions SHOW his lack of ability or interest in protecting and defending our precious Constitution. The United States today is not the same United States that existed before January 2009.
What were voters thinking back in November?!
John ryan
15 years ago
gee there really does seem to be a lot of divergent views about all of the “torture” business doesn’t there ? Perhaps we need to bring in a special prosecutor to clear things up. My view is that torture is illegal and that all illegal acts should be prosecuted. If Obama decides to grant clemency to any found guilty I would have no problem with that. But we are a nation of laws.
Tom in CA
15 years ago
Thanks for your view John. Gee, perhaps since we are a nation of laws we should start with investigating Senator Feinstein and the steering of political favors to CBRE. You know, her husbands firm. Think that might be illegal? How about Senator Dodd, and his ‘special’ mortgage? No favors there uh?
So Mr. Obama, start with the trials, just remember, you’ll be out of office one day.
Scrapiron
15 years ago
The O’Dumbo regime will record an American first. First entire regime ,aka Hitlers brown shirt imitators, to be arrested, tried, convicted and executed.
Uncle Jefe
15 years ago
John Ryan, nothing that we did constitutes ‘torture’.
These are not state actors, who would be covered under the Geneva agreements that we signed with other signatory nations (states).
They are terrorists.
Period.
Uncle Jefe
15 years ago
By the way, here’s Eric Holder’s view on all this, on CNN back in 2002 (via Jonah Godberg at The Corner)…
“One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.
It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not.”
suek
15 years ago
This is off topic – sort of. Please consider it if you are not already a member. It’s only off topic if you consider that Obama has no intentions of somehow regulating gun ownership out of existence.
“The NRA is giving FREE 1-yr memberships to everyone who wants to join. They are trying to build up their membership to fight pending legislation that impacts our right to keep and bear arms.
It is very important that anti-gun congressmen see how many people they will have to fight to get their legislation through.
This is your opportunity to join the NRA at NO COST to you. This is a free One-Year membership. Please take advantage of this opportunity and support our “Second Amendment” by joining today. Just click here https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus and sign up now.
This is for new members only I believe. If you know someone who might be interested, let them know how to take advantage of this one-year membership.”
Patvann
15 years ago
Bring it on. I want to hear (from their own mouths) from Pelosi and Rockefeller. WHO WERE IN THE DAMN ROOM BACK THEN, ASKING IF THESE METHODS WERE TOUGH ENOUGH!!!!
Does Obama even understand the negative consequences of that for our democratic system of government?
My belief: No. This man sees only the necessity of keeping his popularity intact. HOw many knifes he will stick in the backs of others is irrelevant, but, that’s my opinion, having seen his poor international relations skills, and his steamrolling of the economy to gain control for when the masses figure out he duped them. At that point, it will get ugly.
Strange indeed, that Lincoln freed the slaves and Obama seems set on enslaving us all. Read into that what you will, but it’s a scary thought, with all too many puzzle pieces being passed into law.
Final thought: If you destroy the democratic attibutes of the system, then it’s a moot point anyhow. He will be in charge by his own hand, much like Chavez was elected, then made himself president for life A reason to cozy up with Hugo to get some really good ideas on how to make go ffaster and more smoothly here.
TammyL
15 years ago
The Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists. It is a treaty that governs the conduct and warfare between legitimate armies of legitimate nations. It does not cover rogue individuals who are waging Jihad.
ObamaIsASadJoke
15 years ago
ugh- john ryan, you get tired of being slapped around at Ace of Spades? That why you come over here to lay out your weak krep?
Nice to see the locals here giving you the respect you deserve…which is to say, none.
Nation of laws, yes indeed. Let’s start the clock ticking on Sandy Berger, and move forward from there, okay sport?
DocMartyn
15 years ago
“Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You have to be lucky always”
PIRA statement to Thatcher govt after Brighton bomb, 1984
The British government responded to IRA terrorism by infiltrating the IRA and killing the more intransigent ones. The left-wing press shrilled about the ‘shot to kill policy’; but in the end the IRA was defeated, despite funding and political backing from Democratic Senator Teddy Kennedy.
However, it took 30 years, and many dead civilians. I personally witnessed the Downing St mortar bombing, a friend was at Kings Cross when the bomb went off, and other was at Victoria Station when that bomb went off. The IRA blew up my rail line one morning, but missed the train.
Defeating Al-Queda will take at least as long, and there will manage the kill hundreds of civilians in the coming decades. However, the same people who think it is better for the Israelis to pick up body parts after a nail bombing on a bus rather than building and patrolling a wall, also think it better that genocidal, gay-hating, misogynistic, anti-Semitic, murderers kill American men, women and children rather than getting their hair wet.
They will support the terrorists, rather than law enforcement authorities, because they hate society as much as Al-Queda.
Hard Right
15 years ago
John, I’ll use small words for you.
1) No one was tortured.
2) The “harsh” interrogation methods worked.
Harsh in this case means more than just politely asking questions and less than torture.
@John ryan: Do we need to appoint a special prosecutor to determine whether Bill Clinton or any of his aides violated the law in the bombing of that aspirin factory in Sudan?
@Uncle Jefe: Do you have a link to those Holder remarks? I checked the last few days at the Corner and didn’t see it.
Obama just castrated all branches of U.S. intelligence services, and like Clintoons wall between intel services, and the financial cutbacks that virtually crippled our intelligence, it will come back to bite Obama in the ass.
@Marion Valentine: Correction Marion. It will bite US in the ass. Obama will be as blameless as Clinton. Remember ole Bill had the 1889 PDB warning of attacks and he did nothing. Bush got blamed for failing to connect the dots.
The same thing will happen if we boot Obama out in less than four years and we are attacked when a Republican is in office again.
Yeah you’re right Mike, but if Obama isn’t stopped America is destroyed anyway, but the lives lost in a terrorist attack would just further demoralize the American people and hasten their enslavement under a One World Socialist Government. Giving up liberty for safety wouldn’t be such a hard sell for the master snake oil salesman.
Bank of America`s total credit exposure to derivatives was 179 percent of its risk-based capital; Citibank`s was 278 percent; JPMorgan Chase`s, 382 percent; and HSBC America`s, 550 percent. It gets even worse: Goldman Sachs began reporting as a commercial bank, revealing an alarming total credit exposure of 1,056 percent, or more than ten times its capital!
YIKES!
I have read CFP from time to time. Drop us a link when you have something up there.
Mike, Tammy.. thank you for your condolences. I swear, so much easier on those that depart than those they leave behind. Having a hard time wrapping my arms around this one.
Marion, congrats on your CFP status. And of course we not only read, but many times post their articles as references and post fodder. But what really struck me was the continuation of life… my friend exits after midnight, your granddaughter arrives within the hour. God called home one of his very precious creations in Alia/Pam…. but he left another in the care of your family. It gave me one of my rare smiles today. Thank you.
John Ryan… lumping everything into the vague “torture” category, eh? You are a gullible fool. How many did they waterboard? What were the other serious offenses? Sleep deprivation? Listing to Brittany 24/7. But no… you just ASSume everything was “torture” because that works for your argument.
Perhaps you should do more reading of all that heinous “torture”… like forced nudity and slamming against a wall… then compare it to genuine torture these cockroaches do to citizens and soldiers alike. I have no patience with your mentality today. You are but a bug on life’s windshield.
Murphy
15 years ago
Does this mean we can prosecute the global warming cult in 2013?
I had a racoon problem a few years ago too. Some nutty neighbor was feeding them and we were overrun. I trapped enough in Havahart traps to make a coat.
Congratulations on the new arrival in your family. I hope you teach her right. Don’t leave it up to the public schools.
@Murphy: It would be nice if we could prosecute the globaloney fraudsters, including Al Gore. But sadly, we all know that Republicans will never dare to do anything as blatantly vicious as what Obama and the Dems are considering.
@MataHarley: They say the pain grows less with time. That may be true but it never goes away. Just continuing to vent on John Ryan if that helps.
Thanks Mike, However I have two teenagers who are among the top students in the country, yet they attend a little country school that is supposed to be nearly the worst in the country, but true history and values are taught at home, regardless of where the school is,all schools have books and reasonably qualified teachers, but schools and teachers cannot teach children anything, they can only give them an opportunity to learn, and every child in America has that opportunity….some just wont pay the price to take advantage of it.
@Marion Valentine: There is no substitute for parent’s passing their values along to their children. I was introduced to politics at a very young age when my parents took me to see a presidential candidate visit in our area. It all started there. But we also had discussions around the dinner table.
Obama didn’t criminalize the actions of his predecessor, these things were already illegal.
I am always struck by the often repeated use of the phrase ” successful Bush Administration efforts to protect us” This is not true at all. Not only did we get attacked on Bush’s watch, there was also the Anthrax mailings right after that. I’m grateful that no attacks happened since then, but 911 happened on Bush’s watch.
You can say,” that can happen to any President,” but to keep saying over and over that Bush kept us safe is not a true statement. He kept us safe after the worse attack on American soil on his watch.
To top all that off, the scumbag mastermind Bin Laden who bragged and taunts us to this day is still free, still plotting, and still a threat. He has not been brought to justice. This on Bush’s watch.
Mata: First, very sorry to hear about your friend.
The release of those memos revealed little that was not already known as far back as 2006.
This is probably why Bush also inserted some language to retroactively protect himself in the Military Commissions Act in 2006
This was after the Supreme court ruled in Hamdan VS Rumsfeld that the Geneva Convention did indeed apply to the War on Terror Detainees.
A summary of the decision’s impact: “This is, without question, the single most significant Supreme Court ruling to date dealing with the war on terror. The ruling’s most substantial point is that all non-citizen prisoners are protected by the Geneva Conventions. This essentially renders illegal the Bush administration’s program of indefinite detention, mild torture, and extraordinary rendition, calling on the administration to treat all detainees in a manner consistent with international human rights standards.”
The Military Commissions act gave the President the right to:
“It authorizes the suspension of habeas corpus for non-citizens, including legal permanent residents, in U.S. custody · It authorizes the President to detain anyone, including U.S. citizens, without charge by designating them enemy combatants or unlawful enemy combatants · It authorizes the President to determine what constitutes torture. · It authorizes the use of evidence obtained by coercion · It authorizes the use of hearsay · It authorizes retroactive immunity for U.S military and intelligence officials for abuses that occurred at sites such as, Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo, Bagram and secret CIA facilities. · The definitions of rape and sexual assault are narrower than under international law and have higher thresholds for proof.”
If we are compromising our values and behaving more like our enemy in order to win the fight against them, then we are losing much more in the long run.
The Congress is every bit as guilty for passing this into law, and condoning any illegal activities. Their hands are not clean either.
When we grant one man the right to suspend habeas corpus, we undermine our Constitution to our peril.
ALL of the Guantanamo detanees who have been released and have been cited as having gone back to the field of battle were released during the Bush administration.
There is concern that those who are guilty as hell in Guantanamo cannot or will not be tried because of the evidence against them being tainted.
Basically, as prosecutor of the War on Terror, Bush has bungled the case. Not only has he not brought Bin Laden to justice, he has diminished the chances of bringing these terrorists to justice without them introducing the methods used to get their confessions as evidence in their trials, compromising the case against them.
This may be ok with some Conservatives, but it does great harm to our country, and undermines support for the war we wage against Radical Islam. I hear some Conservatives say sometimes, “who care who likes America overseas?” My father told me once, it takes your whole life to build up a good name for yourself, and you can lose that good name in a matter of minutes.
America is a great country deserving of a good name, Bush has done his part to tarnish that good name.
I’m sorry, but you don’t get to just grab up people and lock them away 7 years, or forever with no trial here in America. The Supreme Court agrees the Geneva Convention does apply.
Back in the day, enemy caught in war might be caught, interrogated, and when no longer useful, exterminated and left on the field of battle, and the media was non the wiser for it. Sounds bad, but war is war, and perhaps preferable to the system Bush set up. Mr. Bush is responsible for allowing enemy caught on battlefields to become Supreme court cases.
He didn’t let a good crisis go to waste either, he launched the Iraq war instead of going after and bringing Bin Laden to justice.
Letting the facts see the light of day will keep this from happening again.
Those who fault Obama should be glad he is exposing this to the Nation, and not sweeping it under the rug, lest he do the very same in ways that you find objectionable, and use the powers given to him from the Bush Administration to bad ends.
To me, the granting of ANY President the right to declare an American citizen an Enemy Combatant and therefor he/she can be detained indefinitely with no right to ask a Judge why he/she is being held, by the word of the President alone goes well beyond the rights the Constitution grants. Even in times of war. When this was proposed is when we should have had our Tea Parties every single day.
Those who would give up freedom in order to gain safety deserve neither
If Obama is as bad as what I hear many of you here say he is, he was certainly handed the keys to the Kingdom to do as he will by Mr. Bush and the previous Congress. Obama has continued extraordinary rendition, continues the wiretapping and broken other promises already. I hope he has the wisdom and character to not dig into that Military Commissions act toolbox that Bush left him and use it for purposes of evil. And yes, let the Country find out what happened, so it can be rectified and never happen again.
Russell
15 years ago
Water-boarding, enforced hypothermia, and stress positions have long been recognized as torture. The US has prosecuted those acts as torture, both when done by our own wayward soldiers, and also when done by foreigners. After WW II, Japanese officers who used water-boarding were tried and found guilty of torture. I don’t know whether the Japanese who practiced this thereby gained any information that saved Japanese lives. Would that have been a valid defense?
Moose, you may wish to spread your accusations, guy.
First of all, at the heart of Hamdan… and ultimately Boumediene… was whether the stateless thugs captured on the battlefield had habeus corpus rights, and access to our courts instead of the military trials set up (and consistently fought down… which is why most never got a conviction… hampered at every turn by ACLU lawyers).
Hamdan’s decision found that the administration first had to prove that Hamdan was not a prisoner of war, and was classified as an enemy combatant. This was in June of 2006. MCA was introduced in Sept 2006, and enacted in Oct 2006 that gave powers to the admin to suspend habeaus corpus rights of non citizens. They were held in Gitmo because it was not considered US sovereign territory.
Boumediene, in June of 2008, resulted in the SCOTUS redefining Guantanamo as US sovereign territory, which then granted habeaus corpus and Constitutional rights to the detainees.
Now, all that said, Moose, the problem is you don’t want to give these critters Constitutional rights and they should be tried via military tribunals instead. Even the current POTUS understands this… which is what brings me to my first sentence about “spreading the accusations”.
Bagram is Obama’s new Gitmo. It was late February when Obama’s justice department did a “Bush”, and declared that the Bagram Airfield detainees could be held indefinitely because of ongoing military actions, and that they did not have access to the US court system. Sound familiar? Same story, same intent, just different soil.
Warpublican
15 years ago
“John, I’ll use small words for you.
1) No one was tortured.
2) The “harsh” interrogation methods worked.
Harsh in this case means more than just politely asking questions and less than torture.”
If what you say is true – no torture – what is everyone so worried about? No faith in American justice? Let’s get this into the open! I want to find out if the non-torture worked – what – exactly – did this non-torture do to help America? We already know there was no ticking-bomb scenario – so this non-torture looks like it was used for getting other information.
Just like the Bushies used to say: if you’re innocent, you’ve got NOTHING to fear…
@MataHarley: I’m glad you gave Mossy the time of day. Frankly, I am a bit irritated with massive dumps of cut and paste material which Mossy denies he gets from his favorite lefty web sites.
And as for the moral equivalence of US waterboarding to that of the Japanese such specious arguments totally ignore the standards which the U.S. set to prevent these techniques from being misused. Go and read the DOJ/CIA memos if you need a clue.
And once again, in case anyone missed it, these techniques WERE USED ON ONLY THREE OF THESE MONSTERS!
Why is it ok for Obama to bomb villages in Pakistan killing God knows how many innocent civilians and not ok for Bush to waterboard these three monsters?
Do I need to post this photo on every thread?
That’s KSM holding the gun to Daniel Pearl’s head just before he saws it off.
Answer me this Mossy, Russel and Ron: Would it make you feel better if members of your family had died in the “second wave” because we had not waterboarded?
That’s a YES or a NO question. No equivocating. The issue is just that stark. We either waterboarded those three monsters or people would dead.
Finally, Funny how Democrats have endless hours to puff up the evil of “torture” and distort the facts and yet they didn’t even have 24 hours to read the most massive pork spending bill of all time.
Seems to me their priorities are out of whack. They have all the time in the world for lies and distortions and no time to govern.
Russell #35: Water-boarding, enforced hypothermia, and stress positions have long been recognized as torture. The US has prosecuted those acts as torture, both when done by our own wayward soldiers, and also when done by foreigners.
Perhaps we should be prosecuting military training instructors, eh?
For those of you who prefer Hollywood’s version of reality, you may remember GI Jane, with the trainer holding her head underwater to get her fellow unit to break in order to save her life. Not such a far fetched reality when you consider what thousands of troops have undergone as part of their SERE training…. the Resistance part of which is spent in a simulated POW camp with coercive interrogation techniques. That includes waterboarding, forced nudity, etc.
But yeah… let’s coddle the human scum. Don’t forget to deliver their MickeyD’s happy meals on time, three times a day. Yet for all the “torture”, they walk away with intact bodies… unlike any POW in the enemy camp. This demented vision of the “moral high road” may make you feel better about your self, but will you feel the same way when innocents die for your smug morality?
Frankly, I think shooting on the battlefield is the way to go.
@MataHarley: Let’s prosecute Code Pink whackos. They waterboard people in their demonstrations all the time.
@Warpublican: ” We already know there was no ticking-bomb scenario”
WRONG!
We knew a second wave of attacks was on the way. It is an indisputable fact that the Bush Administration used intelligence, some of which was garnered from waterboarding JUST THREE TERRORISTS, to foil multiple attacks.
Democrats objected to nearly ALL the advanced intelligence operations only AFTER the NY Times disclosed them. Dems were fully informed of ALL these methods.
I’ll ask you the same question:
Answer me this Mossy, Russel and Ron: Would it make you feel better if members of your family had died in the “second wave” because we had not waterboarded?
Warpublican… the day the courts start micromanaging our intel/military, and our methods are a part of public record, is the day American begins the downslide of an efficient military and counterintelligence entity. Such matters are not a “need to know” for you merely so you can pompously cast aspersions about national security, of which you know nothing of the details and potential risks of unsuccessful interrogation methods.
If I may continue your theme of pictures being worth a thousand words, I’d like to add these:
To those who are opposed to the use of waterboarding to prevent horrors like those pictured above, a challenge for you.
Find for me one legal expert, or one politician, just one, who went on record in the days following 9/11 saying that we shouldn’t do what we needed to do to prevent another attack on our soil.
Just one.
It’s so easy to look back now, nearly eight years later, and say “Oh, we shouldn’t have done that.”
Find me one person who said that in Sept 2001.
I’m with Mata.
Shoot ’em in the head.
That is, after all, prescribed by the Geneva Conventions as appropriate.
Ron
15 years ago
To Mike:
Whether or not they were water-boarded to obtain information or stop an attack would NOT make me feel better or worse about losing my family Mike. Sorry if that isn’t a yes or No answer but that is my answer. Some questions don’t have yes and no questions.
Yes or no Mike does it bother you that INNOCENT people could and have been tortured?
You and Mata are missing the point entirely. I could care less about the terrorists who were water-boarded. But when you institute polices that are defined as torture, and use them, you run the risk of innocent people getting tortured as well as wide spread abuse. We didn’t torture Nazi officers during World War II and yet we were still able to gather intelligence from them. And why is it illegal for the FBI and ALL other domestic law inforcement to water-board or torture?
Let’s ask Curt if it would be okay to water-board a suspect to gather a confession. I bet he says it’s illegal. This isn’t about some”lefty” position it’s about the letter of the law. In “My America” Mike everyone has to obey the nation’s law….NO EXCEPTIONS. And even though those men are not legal citizens, it is hypocritical of us to use techniques on others that we are not allowed to use on ourselves.
Ron
Ron
15 years ago
I have a question for you Aye…….did we water-board Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols to gather information about who else might of been involved in the Oklahoma City Bombings? Did we use any “Enhanced interrogation techniques” on suspects in one of the worst domestic TERRORISM acts in US history?
Why didn’t we on them but we can on some foreigner? I know McVeigh and Nichols were US citizens….but how are they different from the 9/11 terrorists as far as intent?
“If we are attacked again on Obama’s watch the first question we need to ask is how did Obama’s reckless political witch hunt of successful Bush Administration efforts to protect us contribute to our failure to protect ourselves?”
No, it will be because Bush angered the rest of the world with this terrible treatment and incited the attacks.
Nothing will ever be Obama’s fault- and that’s why he put it in Holder’s hands- to distance himself from untoward consequences.
Thanks for posting this and saving me the trouble, Mike. Reeling from the loss of a dear friend at the moment.
But the motives behind releasing this has been bothering me. Obama knew that these methods have resulted in success. There was nothing good that could come out of this. Exposure of techniques to the enemy, increased danger to our service personnel if captured (not that they were facing Geneva Convention treatment anyway…), and a disaffected CIA, leary of any pressure for fear they step over Obama’s line.
Then we have the POTUS/TOTUS himself… proclaiming from the onset he wasn’t going to be investigating the Bush admin. He then releases this and proclaims he won’t be prosecuting the operatives acting under order.
Like Pontius Pilate, he washes his hands to absolve his soul and conscience, and lets his minions go on the attack – do the dirty work – and take the responsibility instead. “It wasn’t me”, he will solemnly avow in the future.
What has he gained but increased risk to our security and soldiers, demeaning the US on the world stage, and making the CIA nervous about their already daunting tasks? (he made a special trip to Langley to reassure them he really *did* support their efforts…. okay)
And all for what? To throw a bone to his leftist supporters, out for vengence on an American administration.
I could not be more disgusted with this administration. Respect from him? He’s worn out that welcome mat with me.
If we are attacked again, after being protected for 7 years, and Obama allows those who protected the nation by gleaning information using “heavy” interogation to be prosecuted then Obama et al should be tried for treason.
The first job of a US President is to protect as best possible the citizens of this nation. The one thing I feared during this past election was having a President who did not put this country first.
I hope I am wrong.
@MataHarley: Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. I had wondered where you were. Thanks for dropping in.
@Ike: Right you are.
The Oath of Office for President is:
You can’t protect the Constitution if the citizens protected by it are DEAD!
But I suppose if your first obligation is to appease America haters around the world you are less likely to defend the safety and security of your own citizens.
I too am worried about his motives. There seems to be no logical reasons to put out these memos. Is he so vindictive and hateful towards a Republican administration that he would through the troops and the CIA over a barrel. If he signs onto the treaty that forces the United States to belong to the International World Court, then he has opened up a pandora box for lawsuits and witch-hunting prosecutions. It clearly said on the memos that these memos were highly classified.
P.S. Mata, sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.
Part of me is questioning whether he really does want an attack against us, so he can seize on another crisis to seize power. I don’t trust him or anyone in the administration. And the way that congress is just cutting under the table deals with lobbyists and private contractors to secure some of that stimulus money, I think he might be trying to distract America from the greedy congressmen/women who are shamelessly scarfing up goodies. It is like a feeding frenzy in congress.
He has no vision except one that will lead this country to hell (socialism) so he is focusing on the past. Lets see if his interrogation efforts will produce better results that BUsh’s. Four years is a long time for Obama.
Referring to Mike’s America’s comment, Barry’s actions speak to his so called abilities and faithfulness to the USA. He appears to be amoral. His actions speak louder than all the words he spewed before being elected as president. His actions SHOW his lack of ability or interest in protecting and defending our precious Constitution. The United States today is not the same United States that existed before January 2009.
What were voters thinking back in November?!
gee there really does seem to be a lot of divergent views about all of the “torture” business doesn’t there ? Perhaps we need to bring in a special prosecutor to clear things up. My view is that torture is illegal and that all illegal acts should be prosecuted. If Obama decides to grant clemency to any found guilty I would have no problem with that. But we are a nation of laws.
Thanks for your view John. Gee, perhaps since we are a nation of laws we should start with investigating Senator Feinstein and the steering of political favors to CBRE. You know, her husbands firm. Think that might be illegal? How about Senator Dodd, and his ‘special’ mortgage? No favors there uh?
So Mr. Obama, start with the trials, just remember, you’ll be out of office one day.
The O’Dumbo regime will record an American first. First entire regime ,aka Hitlers brown shirt imitators, to be arrested, tried, convicted and executed.
John Ryan, nothing that we did constitutes ‘torture’.
These are not state actors, who would be covered under the Geneva agreements that we signed with other signatory nations (states).
They are terrorists.
Period.
By the way, here’s Eric Holder’s view on all this, on CNN back in 2002 (via Jonah Godberg at The Corner)…
“One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.
It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not.”
This is off topic – sort of. Please consider it if you are not already a member. It’s only off topic if you consider that Obama has no intentions of somehow regulating gun ownership out of existence.
“The NRA is giving FREE 1-yr memberships to everyone who wants to join. They are trying to build up their membership to fight pending legislation that impacts our right to keep and bear arms.
It is very important that anti-gun congressmen see how many people they will have to fight to get their legislation through.
This is your opportunity to join the NRA at NO COST to you. This is a free One-Year membership. Please take advantage of this opportunity and support our “Second Amendment” by joining today. Just click here https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus and sign up now.
This is for new members only I believe. If you know someone who might be interested, let them know how to take advantage of this one-year membership.”
Bring it on. I want to hear (from their own mouths) from Pelosi and Rockefeller. WHO WERE IN THE DAMN ROOM BACK THEN, ASKING IF THESE METHODS WERE TOUGH ENOUGH!!!!
My belief: No. This man sees only the necessity of keeping his popularity intact. HOw many knifes he will stick in the backs of others is irrelevant, but, that’s my opinion, having seen his poor international relations skills, and his steamrolling of the economy to gain control for when the masses figure out he duped them. At that point, it will get ugly.
Strange indeed, that Lincoln freed the slaves and Obama seems set on enslaving us all. Read into that what you will, but it’s a scary thought, with all too many puzzle pieces being passed into law.
Final thought: If you destroy the democratic attibutes of the system, then it’s a moot point anyhow. He will be in charge by his own hand, much like Chavez was elected, then made himself president for life A reason to cozy up with Hugo to get some really good ideas on how to make go ffaster and more smoothly here.
The Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists. It is a treaty that governs the conduct and warfare between legitimate armies of legitimate nations. It does not cover rogue individuals who are waging Jihad.
ugh- john ryan, you get tired of being slapped around at Ace of Spades? That why you come over here to lay out your weak krep?
Nice to see the locals here giving you the respect you deserve…which is to say, none.
Nation of laws, yes indeed. Let’s start the clock ticking on Sandy Berger, and move forward from there, okay sport?
“Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You have to be lucky always”
PIRA statement to Thatcher govt after Brighton bomb, 1984
The British government responded to IRA terrorism by infiltrating the IRA and killing the more intransigent ones. The left-wing press shrilled about the ‘shot to kill policy’; but in the end the IRA was defeated, despite funding and political backing from Democratic Senator Teddy Kennedy.
However, it took 30 years, and many dead civilians. I personally witnessed the Downing St mortar bombing, a friend was at Kings Cross when the bomb went off, and other was at Victoria Station when that bomb went off. The IRA blew up my rail line one morning, but missed the train.
Defeating Al-Queda will take at least as long, and there will manage the kill hundreds of civilians in the coming decades. However, the same people who think it is better for the Israelis to pick up body parts after a nail bombing on a bus rather than building and patrolling a wall, also think it better that genocidal, gay-hating, misogynistic, anti-Semitic, murderers kill American men, women and children rather than getting their hair wet.
They will support the terrorists, rather than law enforcement authorities, because they hate society as much as Al-Queda.
John, I’ll use small words for you.
1) No one was tortured.
2) The “harsh” interrogation methods worked.
Harsh in this case means more than just politely asking questions and less than torture.
@John ryan: Do we need to appoint a special prosecutor to determine whether Bill Clinton or any of his aides violated the law in the bombing of that aspirin factory in Sudan?
@Uncle Jefe: Do you have a link to those Holder remarks? I checked the last few days at the Corner and didn’t see it.
Obama just castrated all branches of U.S. intelligence services, and like Clintoons wall between intel services, and the financial cutbacks that virtually crippled our intelligence, it will come back to bite Obama in the ass.
@Marion Valentine: Correction Marion. It will bite US in the ass. Obama will be as blameless as Clinton. Remember ole Bill had the 1889 PDB warning of attacks and he did nothing. Bush got blamed for failing to connect the dots.
The same thing will happen if we boot Obama out in less than four years and we are attacked when a Republican is in office again.
Yeah you’re right Mike, but if Obama isn’t stopped America is destroyed anyway, but the lives lost in a terrorist attack would just further demoralize the American people and hasten their enslavement under a One World Socialist Government. Giving up liberty for safety wouldn’t be such a hard sell for the master snake oil salesman.
BTW Mike did you see the “leaked” list of banks that failed the stress test? I have it and will post if you haven’t seen it.
@Marion Valentine: I haven’t seen it Marion.. Please drop the link here.
http://dprogram.net/2009/04/20/bank-stress-test-results-leaked/
I am listed as a columnist for Canada Free Press now, I write an article about once a week, don’t know if you all read CFP or not.
@Marion Valentine:
From your link:
YIKES!
I have read CFP from time to time. Drop us a link when you have something up there.
Will do Mike, have 4 recent articles on CFP now….
http://canadafreepress.com
in upper left click on columnist archives, then find my name.
I also have a new grand daughter born at 1:40 today, am crowing like an old rooster…LOL
Mike, Tammy.. thank you for your condolences. I swear, so much easier on those that depart than those they leave behind. Having a hard time wrapping my arms around this one.
Marion, congrats on your CFP status. And of course we not only read, but many times post their articles as references and post fodder. But what really struck me was the continuation of life… my friend exits after midnight, your granddaughter arrives within the hour. God called home one of his very precious creations in Alia/Pam…. but he left another in the care of your family. It gave me one of my rare smiles today. Thank you.
John Ryan… lumping everything into the vague “torture” category, eh? You are a gullible fool. How many did they waterboard? What were the other serious offenses? Sleep deprivation? Listing to Brittany 24/7. But no… you just ASSume everything was “torture” because that works for your argument.
Perhaps you should do more reading of all that heinous “torture”… like forced nudity and slamming against a wall… then compare it to genuine torture these cockroaches do to citizens and soldiers alike. I have no patience with your mentality today. You are but a bug on life’s windshield.
Does this mean we can prosecute the global warming cult in 2013?
@Marion Valentine: Thanks. Found your archive here:
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/members/1/Marion%20Valentine/
I had a racoon problem a few years ago too. Some nutty neighbor was feeding them and we were overrun. I trapped enough in Havahart traps to make a coat.
Congratulations on the new arrival in your family. I hope you teach her right. Don’t leave it up to the public schools.
@Murphy: It would be nice if we could prosecute the globaloney fraudsters, including Al Gore. But sadly, we all know that Republicans will never dare to do anything as blatantly vicious as what Obama and the Dems are considering.
@MataHarley: They say the pain grows less with time. That may be true but it never goes away. Just continuing to vent on John Ryan if that helps.
Thanks Mike, However I have two teenagers who are among the top students in the country, yet they attend a little country school that is supposed to be nearly the worst in the country, but true history and values are taught at home, regardless of where the school is,all schools have books and reasonably qualified teachers, but schools and teachers cannot teach children anything, they can only give them an opportunity to learn, and every child in America has that opportunity….some just wont pay the price to take advantage of it.
+Good Night everyone
@Marion Valentine: There is no substitute for parent’s passing their values along to their children. I was introduced to politics at a very young age when my parents took me to see a presidential candidate visit in our area. It all started there. But we also had discussions around the dinner table.
http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/22/Columns/We_sentenced_Japanese.shtml
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeBTg_Jrab8
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/waronterror/p/hamdan.htm
Obama didn’t criminalize the actions of his predecessor, these things were already illegal.
I am always struck by the often repeated use of the phrase ” successful Bush Administration efforts to protect us” This is not true at all. Not only did we get attacked on Bush’s watch, there was also the Anthrax mailings right after that. I’m grateful that no attacks happened since then, but 911 happened on Bush’s watch.
You can say,” that can happen to any President,” but to keep saying over and over that Bush kept us safe is not a true statement. He kept us safe after the worse attack on American soil on his watch.
To top all that off, the scumbag mastermind Bin Laden who bragged and taunts us to this day is still free, still plotting, and still a threat. He has not been brought to justice. This on Bush’s watch.
Mata: First, very sorry to hear about your friend.
The release of those memos revealed little that was not already known as far back as 2006.
This is probably why Bush also inserted some language to retroactively protect himself in the Military Commissions Act in 2006
http://alaskafreepress.com/news/224
http://www.rense.com/general74/mil.htm
http://shadowpress.org/military_commissions_act.52.htm
This was after the Supreme court ruled in Hamdan VS Rumsfeld that the Geneva Convention did indeed apply to the War on Terror Detainees.
A summary of the decision’s impact: “This is, without question, the single most significant Supreme Court ruling to date dealing with the war on terror. The ruling’s most substantial point is that all non-citizen prisoners are protected by the Geneva Conventions. This essentially renders illegal the Bush administration’s program of indefinite detention, mild torture, and extraordinary rendition, calling on the administration to treat all detainees in a manner consistent with international human rights standards.”
The Military Commissions act gave the President the right to:
“It authorizes the suspension of habeas corpus for non-citizens, including legal permanent residents, in U.S. custody · It authorizes the President to detain anyone, including U.S. citizens, without charge by designating them enemy combatants or unlawful enemy combatants · It authorizes the President to determine what constitutes torture. · It authorizes the use of evidence obtained by coercion · It authorizes the use of hearsay · It authorizes retroactive immunity for U.S military and intelligence officials for abuses that occurred at sites such as, Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo, Bagram and secret CIA facilities. · The definitions of rape and sexual assault are narrower than under international law and have higher thresholds for proof.”
If we are compromising our values and behaving more like our enemy in order to win the fight against them, then we are losing much more in the long run.
The Congress is every bit as guilty for passing this into law, and condoning any illegal activities. Their hands are not clean either.
When we grant one man the right to suspend habeas corpus, we undermine our Constitution to our peril.
ALL of the Guantanamo detanees who have been released and have been cited as having gone back to the field of battle were released during the Bush administration.
There is concern that those who are guilty as hell in Guantanamo cannot or will not be tried because of the evidence against them being tainted.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/13/AR2009011303372.html
Basically, as prosecutor of the War on Terror, Bush has bungled the case. Not only has he not brought Bin Laden to justice, he has diminished the chances of bringing these terrorists to justice without them introducing the methods used to get their confessions as evidence in their trials, compromising the case against them.
This may be ok with some Conservatives, but it does great harm to our country, and undermines support for the war we wage against Radical Islam. I hear some Conservatives say sometimes, “who care who likes America overseas?” My father told me once, it takes your whole life to build up a good name for yourself, and you can lose that good name in a matter of minutes.
America is a great country deserving of a good name, Bush has done his part to tarnish that good name.
I’m sorry, but you don’t get to just grab up people and lock them away 7 years, or forever with no trial here in America. The Supreme Court agrees the Geneva Convention does apply.
Back in the day, enemy caught in war might be caught, interrogated, and when no longer useful, exterminated and left on the field of battle, and the media was non the wiser for it. Sounds bad, but war is war, and perhaps preferable to the system Bush set up. Mr. Bush is responsible for allowing enemy caught on battlefields to become Supreme court cases.
He didn’t let a good crisis go to waste either, he launched the Iraq war instead of going after and bringing Bin Laden to justice.
Letting the facts see the light of day will keep this from happening again.
Those who fault Obama should be glad he is exposing this to the Nation, and not sweeping it under the rug, lest he do the very same in ways that you find objectionable, and use the powers given to him from the Bush Administration to bad ends.
To me, the granting of ANY President the right to declare an American citizen an Enemy Combatant and therefor he/she can be detained indefinitely with no right to ask a Judge why he/she is being held, by the word of the President alone goes well beyond the rights the Constitution grants. Even in times of war. When this was proposed is when we should have had our Tea Parties every single day.
Those who would give up freedom in order to gain safety deserve neither
If Obama is as bad as what I hear many of you here say he is, he was certainly handed the keys to the Kingdom to do as he will by Mr. Bush and the previous Congress. Obama has continued extraordinary rendition, continues the wiretapping and broken other promises already. I hope he has the wisdom and character to not dig into that Military Commissions act toolbox that Bush left him and use it for purposes of evil. And yes, let the Country find out what happened, so it can be rectified and never happen again.
Water-boarding, enforced hypothermia, and stress positions have long been recognized as torture. The US has prosecuted those acts as torture, both when done by our own wayward soldiers, and also when done by foreigners. After WW II, Japanese officers who used water-boarding were tried and found guilty of torture. I don’t know whether the Japanese who practiced this thereby gained any information that saved Japanese lives. Would that have been a valid defense?
This witch hunt is just absolutely Hussein.
@Russell:
Source?
Russell is accurate with his assertion that Japanese officers were prosecuted for Water-boarding:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
Ron
@Tom in CA: @John ryan: . . . regardless of the quality of the “laws”? How can “torture” be “illegal” if “torture” isn’t precisely defined?
If water-boarding was once considered torture, and those who used it were prosecuted for torture, then how can you say torture isn’t defined?
Ron
Moose, you may wish to spread your accusations, guy.
First of all, at the heart of Hamdan… and ultimately Boumediene… was whether the stateless thugs captured on the battlefield had habeus corpus rights, and access to our courts instead of the military trials set up (and consistently fought down… which is why most never got a conviction… hampered at every turn by ACLU lawyers).
Hamdan’s decision found that the administration first had to prove that Hamdan was not a prisoner of war, and was classified as an enemy combatant. This was in June of 2006. MCA was introduced in Sept 2006, and enacted in Oct 2006 that gave powers to the admin to suspend habeaus corpus rights of non citizens. They were held in Gitmo because it was not considered US sovereign territory.
Boumediene, in June of 2008, resulted in the SCOTUS redefining Guantanamo as US sovereign territory, which then granted habeaus corpus and Constitutional rights to the detainees.
Now, all that said, Moose, the problem is you don’t want to give these critters Constitutional rights and they should be tried via military tribunals instead. Even the current POTUS understands this… which is what brings me to my first sentence about “spreading the accusations”.
Bagram is Obama’s new Gitmo. It was late February when Obama’s justice department did a “Bush”, and declared that the Bagram Airfield detainees could be held indefinitely because of ongoing military actions, and that they did not have access to the US court system. Sound familiar? Same story, same intent, just different soil.
“John, I’ll use small words for you.
1) No one was tortured.
2) The “harsh” interrogation methods worked.
Harsh in this case means more than just politely asking questions and less than torture.”
If what you say is true – no torture – what is everyone so worried about? No faith in American justice? Let’s get this into the open! I want to find out if the non-torture worked – what – exactly – did this non-torture do to help America? We already know there was no ticking-bomb scenario – so this non-torture looks like it was used for getting other information.
Just like the Bushies used to say: if you’re innocent, you’ve got NOTHING to fear…
@MataHarley: I’m glad you gave Mossy the time of day. Frankly, I am a bit irritated with massive dumps of cut and paste material which Mossy denies he gets from his favorite lefty web sites.
And as for the moral equivalence of US waterboarding to that of the Japanese such specious arguments totally ignore the standards which the U.S. set to prevent these techniques from being misused. Go and read the DOJ/CIA memos if you need a clue.
And once again, in case anyone missed it, these techniques WERE USED ON ONLY THREE OF THESE MONSTERS!
Why is it ok for Obama to bomb villages in Pakistan killing God knows how many innocent civilians and not ok for Bush to waterboard these three monsters?
Do I need to post this photo on every thread?
That’s KSM holding the gun to Daniel Pearl’s head just before he saws it off.
Answer me this Mossy, Russel and Ron: Would it make you feel better if members of your family had died in the “second wave” because we had not waterboarded?
That’s a YES or a NO question. No equivocating. The issue is just that stark. We either waterboarded those three monsters or people would dead.
Finally, Funny how Democrats have endless hours to puff up the evil of “torture” and distort the facts and yet they didn’t even have 24 hours to read the most massive pork spending bill of all time.
Seems to me their priorities are out of whack. They have all the time in the world for lies and distortions and no time to govern.
Really, Russell? Ever hear of SERE training? (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) For in fact, the methods you consider “torture” are part of our own military’s training tactics.
Perhaps we should be prosecuting military training instructors, eh?
For those of you who prefer Hollywood’s version of reality, you may remember GI Jane, with the trainer holding her head underwater to get her fellow unit to break in order to save her life. Not such a far fetched reality when you consider what thousands of troops have undergone as part of their SERE training…. the Resistance part of which is spent in a simulated POW camp with coercive interrogation techniques. That includes waterboarding, forced nudity, etc.
In fact, when defining the interrogation methods, the Bush admin used this training as a guideline.
But yeah… let’s coddle the human scum. Don’t forget to deliver their MickeyD’s happy meals on time, three times a day. Yet for all the “torture”, they walk away with intact bodies… unlike any POW in the enemy camp. This demented vision of the “moral high road” may make you feel better about your self, but will you feel the same way when innocents die for your smug morality?
Frankly, I think shooting on the battlefield is the way to go.
@MataHarley: Let’s prosecute Code Pink whackos. They waterboard people in their demonstrations all the time.
@Warpublican: ” We already know there was no ticking-bomb scenario”
WRONG!
We knew a second wave of attacks was on the way. It is an indisputable fact that the Bush Administration used intelligence, some of which was garnered from waterboarding JUST THREE TERRORISTS, to foil multiple attacks.
Democrats objected to nearly ALL the advanced intelligence operations only AFTER the NY Times disclosed them. Dems were fully informed of ALL these methods.
I’ll ask you the same question:
Answer me this Mossy, Russel and Ron: Would it make you feel better if members of your family had died in the “second wave” because we had not waterboarded?
And again, that’s a yes or no answer.
Warpublican… the day the courts start micromanaging our intel/military, and our methods are a part of public record, is the day American begins the downslide of an efficient military and counterintelligence entity. Such matters are not a “need to know” for you merely so you can pompously cast aspersions about national security, of which you know nothing of the details and potential risks of unsuccessful interrogation methods.
@Mike’s America:
If I may continue your theme of pictures being worth a thousand words, I’d like to add these:
To those who are opposed to the use of waterboarding to prevent horrors like those pictured above, a challenge for you.
Find for me one legal expert, or one politician, just one, who went on record in the days following 9/11 saying that we shouldn’t do what we needed to do to prevent another attack on our soil.
Just one.
It’s so easy to look back now, nearly eight years later, and say “Oh, we shouldn’t have done that.”
Find me one person who said that in Sept 2001.
I’m with Mata.
Shoot ’em in the head.
That is, after all, prescribed by the Geneva Conventions as appropriate.
To Mike:
Whether or not they were water-boarded to obtain information or stop an attack would NOT make me feel better or worse about losing my family Mike. Sorry if that isn’t a yes or No answer but that is my answer. Some questions don’t have yes and no questions.
Yes or no Mike does it bother you that INNOCENT people could and have been tortured?
You and Mata are missing the point entirely. I could care less about the terrorists who were water-boarded. But when you institute polices that are defined as torture, and use them, you run the risk of innocent people getting tortured as well as wide spread abuse. We didn’t torture Nazi officers during World War II and yet we were still able to gather intelligence from them. And why is it illegal for the FBI and ALL other domestic law inforcement to water-board or torture?
Let’s ask Curt if it would be okay to water-board a suspect to gather a confession. I bet he says it’s illegal. This isn’t about some”lefty” position it’s about the letter of the law. In “My America” Mike everyone has to obey the nation’s law….NO EXCEPTIONS. And even though those men are not legal citizens, it is hypocritical of us to use techniques on others that we are not allowed to use on ourselves.
Ron
I have a question for you Aye…….did we water-board Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols to gather information about who else might of been involved in the Oklahoma City Bombings? Did we use any “Enhanced interrogation techniques” on suspects in one of the worst domestic TERRORISM acts in US history?
Why didn’t we on them but we can on some foreigner? I know McVeigh and Nichols were US citizens….but how are they different from the 9/11 terrorists as far as intent?
Genuinely curious.
Ron