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luva the scissors
15 years ago
where bush did what he felt was best for this nation and it’s people, obama will do what is best for him and his buddies. bush has class and grace, obama is a bratty little man trying to play in the big leagues. when he falls he will try and blame bush, i don’t think it will work. he is backing out of the crap that got him elected and he will keep doing so, and then the mobs of brainwashed freaks will wonder what the hell happened. bush has more class in his little toe than all of obama and his transition team.
GaffaUK
15 years ago
Of course Bush or Cheney would never dream of helping their buddies out
Missy
15 years ago
He got caught being a thankless idiot with no manners. He immediately spun this negative back on President Bush. The manchild can’t help it.
Obama is a “narcissistic man who is severly mistaken”. Unfortunately, the libs would rather vote in a man who is ‘looking out for himself’ and tear to shreds for 8 years a man who desired to ‘serve them’ and sacrifice his own legacy in order to keep their families safe. They are idiots.
Obama is the most pompous elitist in politics I have ever seen next to Bill Clinton.
Another sickening thing is how they are NOW saying Bush is a ‘good man’, ‘gracious’ etc.. BUT, he is ‘mistaken’.. ON WHAT? He was only mistaken on the things he agreed with the liberals on. The rest he did exceptionally well, but it has taken our ‘thankathon’ and others like Ingraham, Limbaugh and Hannity to expose all the things he has done right and believe me it outweighs the bad.
Your a Bush hater Certified Real American Patriot aka C.R.A.P.
You have some nerve pointing fingers at others.
You people go out of your way to trash Bush at every opportunity even when he is being gracious to you.
He’s saved thousands of your worthless lives and this is the thanks he gets?
Missy
15 years ago
Ironic that someone who voted for Al Franken thinks he is qualified to lecture those who have recognized the leftist wringer President Bush was put through for eight years that he rose above with his class and dignity intact.
Having had the manchild muck up Illinois and again for an absentee Senator in DC while he ran for president, I can attest to the empty suit he is, has been and will be. He is worse than any of the accusations thrown at President Bush by the left. Once Obama is sworn in I will hope for the best for this country, but knowing how he operated in the past leads me to hope that change applies to Obama first and foremost.
Scrapiron
15 years ago
You expect class from a street corner crack head who was dragged out, promoted and financed by the enemies of America. The enemy outsmarted the American people by using their own mental retardation (aka BDS) to put their man in the office of POTUS. If you put Princess Caroline and King Barack on the stage togather without a teleprompter they couldn’t tell you what 2 + 2 equals with less than a thousand Uh, Um, Eh’s, and You knows. B Hussein O is nothing more or less than a trained parrot.
You have to love a disaster to be a firefigter/EMT so i’m going to enjoy watching the coming disaster even after I quit the volunteer (15 years) firefighter business on Jan 20, 2009. I will not serve those who have, and will continue to, destroy America in any capacity.
Thousands of businesses and Millions of jobs are gone due to the democrats busted ego’s which progressed to BDS, no other reason.
suek
15 years ago
Ah yes. Class.
Going to be one heck of an inauguration, from all appearances.
More objective sources Gaffa? Is that the same place you “learned” that Sarah Palin said she could see Russia from her house?
Give it a rest. Don’t forget the rules of the Thankathon: no moonbattery. You’ve already pushed those limits.
GaffaUK
15 years ago
I was asked to put some examples. All sorts of links from non objective sites are used and you guys believe almost all the MSM is bias so what sites are objective? Do you dispute the information or that Bush and Cheney have shown examples of cronyism?
And you know as well as I did – that I didn’t quote Palin as having said that;)
“Do you dispute the information or that Bush and Cheney have shown examples of cronyism?”
“Information” from Bush bashing sites is hardly what I would call credible.
You should know better.
Again, do you need a reminder about the rules for the Thankathon? This isn’t the time or the place for any more of that moonbattery. Play nice or else!
GaffaUK
15 years ago
Then surely Mike why can’t you follow Bush’s example and be nice to Obama just until Tuesday?
Funny how you come here and Bush bash then toss that one out. The Obamatons who have thrown bile at Bush for 8 years have had the nerve to come around here and demand we show respect.
You’re not that much of a hypocrite are you Gaff?
GaffaUK
15 years ago
@ Mike
I’m not demanding anything Mike. We are both bias. I have already shown that my comments about Bush aren’t always negative. I think you have even been know to criticise Bush. In the above thread – you started the Obama bash followed by Luva. So my retort was adding balance.
It seems you want a one-way critique of Bush with your thankathon. When a President goes then his record is examined and debated – warts and all. I just want a level playing field – either it’s a healthy debate or if it’s a positive piece about Bush then that should cover Obama during your Thankathon – or at least restrain from jibes as otherwise you are going to get counter jibes.
I’ve explained to you that this is part of the Bush Thankathon. How would you like it if someone came to your going away party and starting telling you all the things you did wrong? That’s why Obama’s comments were so totally inappropriate and offensive and why your comments were also not in line with the spirit of his occasion.
Frankly, I would find it a lot easier to show respect for Obama if the same people demanding it weren’t such nasty, hatefilled people.
You may not belong in that group, but you get pretty close to the border.
Do you at least recognize that the sources you linked above were hardly “objective?” or would you like to peruse the reading list in the first link before you answer:
Well Mike, it what oabam THOUGHT Bush ahd done wrong because it wasn’t the socialist way.
This country will be wishing they had Bush back in a year or two.
@Hard Right: I warned repeatedly during the campaign about the hangover that is coming our way the day after we kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Obama and friends have already lined up $825billion with another $350 billion left from the original bailout plan. That’s one heck of a party but once it is over and the bill comes due who is going to pay? Take away all the money of the top 1% of Americans and you still can’t cover it.
@GaffaUK: Not willing to admit your “objective information” was tainted? No wonder you were misled about Palin.
GaffaUK: Do you dispute the information or that Bush and Cheney have shown examples of cronyism?
Geez Louise… point out any political figure who does’t appoint “cronies”, or those that are close political friends and allies. Why is it a dirty word when applied to Bush or Cheney, but not PEBO and others? Absurd, Gaffa… really now.
Hence why I disputed the 1st comment on here…
“where bush did what he felt was best for this nation and it’s people, obama will do what is best for him and his buddies.”
Although Cheney has taken this to new height (or should that be lows?)
RickZ
15 years ago
“Let’s all thank the 22nd amendment” ~ GaffaUK
You mean the amendment the Dems now want to repeal with Chicago Jesus in the Oval Office? The Dems (Rep. Serrano, NY-D) have pushed a bill forward to repeal the 22nd — again. The Dems did this when Clintoon was president, too, but somehow didn’t manage to put a similar bill forward for the last eight years. Wonder why that was? So which party is it that wants us to have a Dictator For Life? Hint: Which party loves other countries’ Dictators For Life (Chavez, Mugabe, et.al.)?
GaffaUK
15 years ago
@RickZ
Even with a majority – I don’t think the Democrats will go for this. I’m glad there is a 22nd amendment – for all Presidents – Democrat or Republican – aren’t you?
As for dictators for life – well seems all Presidents since Carter are happy to give lots of money to Egypt. How long has Mubarak been there now?
Besides – would you want Bush to have a 3rd or 4th term? The UK doesn’t have this – which is a shame – as we would of gotten rid of Blair in 2005. And Thatcher went on too long as well at 11+ years. If she had gone earlier due to the rules then she wouldn’t of been eventually pushed out by her own conservative party for over staying her welcome.
RickZ
15 years ago
GaffaUK,
Trust me when I say this: A Bush 3rd term would be a helluva lot better than an Obama one term. Period. But I also think a presidential term limit is correct. I just want the Senate to have term limits, too. A six year term is a long time between elections, and we have too many senators who have been serving (a term I use loosely) for 15-30 years. The Senate has become the House of Lords. As for the House, running every two years really does not allow for much actual work to be done by a representative. I’m for making the House and Senate four year terms, with the same term limit as that currently placed upon the Presidency. While our Executive Branch changes, our Legislative Branch is stale. I’m also for placing term limits on the Judicial Branch (the SCOTUS) as well, say 15-20 years or the federally mandated retirement age, whichever comes first.
As for all presidents and Mubarak comment, yes, that’s true. And disgusting. Why the hell should my tax money fund such a regime? (Then again, I think that about our 22% contribution to the UN’s operating budget. Which, BTW, roughly corresponds with Japan’s UN budget contribution percentage. Funny that, two countries providing almost 50% of the UN’s operating budget. For what?) But don’t you find it funny that Bush was not only heavily criticized, but downright condemned for his removal of a dictator for life? Do you think Obama would have the stones to take the political heat Bush did in doing the right thing and getting rid of Sodamn Insane? Do you think Obama has the stones to do the right thing in any given sitiuation at all, given what we know of his scant and spotty past record? Or will he already be looking toward his legacy? I can see that legacy now: The Hope ‘N’ Che’nge Library! Bought and paid for by internet credit card donations with the verification system turned off. The Citizens of the World deserve it!
GaffaUK
15 years ago
@RickZ
Well as a Brit I’m not so acquainted with your complete political system and it’s interesting to find out more about it but as I’m an over-opinionated troll (mistaken by some as a socialist) I reckon you’re right on having 4 year terms for the Senate and Congress. Btw – The House of Lords in the UK is shocking. I’ve been to the Houses of Parliament twice about electoral reform and I’ve heard even Liberal MPs defend the Retirement Home for unelected Cronies defended. Pay a lot of money to a political party and a bit of money to a charity and hey presto – you’re a Lord.
Anyway I can’t agree with you on Iraq. Removing Saddam was a side benefit – not the real goal. I think he got caught up in geo-politics of that region, 9/11 and oil. There’s plenty of dictators out there that the West not only ignores but actually either trades with, sales arms or even gives money to. Egypt is just one. Look at China’s human rights record. You know the British government are sending millions to help rebuild Gaza? Why? To repair buildings so Hamas can fire some more rockets off and have it flattened by Israel again. Waste of money. And Bush may send lots of aid to Africa – but see how corrupt most african countries are.
Instead I think the democratic West should withdraw from the UN and set up it’s own global organisation where only democratic countries which have the required true democratic minimum measures in place can be admitted (so Mugabe’s elections don’t count!). Then democratic countries should trade with one another. Encourage powerful nations like Russia to improve it’s ‘democracy’. I don’t think you can really encourage democracy in other countries using arms unless you want to spent billions or even trillions. Let the West find an alternative to oil and let the Middle East slug it out amonst themselves.
Defend Israel by all means and keep hold of Afganistan until you find Bin Laden and cleared out the Taliban for good – but the rest – leave them to it. When you have ‘allies’ like Pakistan getting huffy about US border attacks when they probably got Bin Laden then what sort of ally is that? I don’t think this would encourage a training ground for terrorism because the whole area of the Middle East IS already a training ground for terrorist – the Iraq War only helped them come together and refocus on the US. Usually they are too busy killing each other over whether the Shia or the Shite are true believers etc. Divide and conquer – the Brits used to be masters of this with their empire run on a shoestring. Of course they rarely introduced democracy at least not until they were about to head off.
RickZ
15 years ago
GaffaUK,
“Instead I think the democratic West should withdraw from the UN and set up it’s own global organisation where only democratic countries which have the required true democratic minimum measures in place can be admitted (so Mugabe’s elections don’t count!). Then democratic countries should trade with one another. Encourage powerful nations like Russia to improve it’s ‘democracy’. I don’t think you can really encourage democracy in other countries using arms unless you want to spent billions or even trillions. Let the West find an alternative to oil and let the Middle East slug it out amonst themselves.”
I agree 110% with this, and have been saying so myself for a while now. An Organization of Democracies. Australia, India, and other appropriate countries. And I also agree with your economics issue because of the cost spent in just getting rid of one dictator in Iraq alone. We already face an ideological fault line with islam and dictators. Having such an organization would accelerate the process through which we come to terms with what must be done to preserve ourselves. We’re heading toward global war soon anyway. Time to pick allies and choose sides.
“Divide and conquer – the Brits used to be masters of this with their empire run on a shoestring. Of course they rarely introduced democracy at least not until they were about to head off.”
That’s a good paragraph overall, but to add to the thought above. The Brits really did run an Empire, and on a shoestring, as you state. The US, though, is not such an empire. We do a pretty good job of setting up democracies when we put our mind and will to it. Places like South Korea, Japan, Germany, Italy, all come to mind. It’s a shame about China, though. During the WWII, the Chinese were overwhelmingly supportive of the US. How things could have been different if the Long March had not succeeded, had Chiang Kai-shek not been the other choice. But when it comes to Iraq, hence islam, we have blinders. There is no way any part of shari’a should have been incorporated into the Iraqi Constitution. We freed the Japanese women after WWII, and look at how that’s worked out for both the women and Japan. To enslave Iraqi women now is just absurd. Our Government is blinkered, blinded by the ‘islam is the Religion of Peace’ BS. An Organization of Democracies might just clarify our thinking a little bit.
GaffaUK
15 years ago
@RickZ
Well – I’m not saying the US should create an empire – just that instead of the West digging ourselves deeper in to debt with a needless war whilst China gets ever closer to superpower status by largely keeping out of such politics (as least action) – the West should set up it’s own network of democracy for democracies.
And I’m not saying we should go into isolationist mode because there are plenty of democracies to trade with. And of course direct action will sometimes need to take place with non-democracies in the case of Al-Queda and Afganistan. The reason the West doesn’t go into places like Zimbabwe and China – it’s because it’s not worth it – either resource wise or they’re too strong or we have too much too lose in other ways (e.g. trade with China). Iraq wasn’t worth the price tag. Reagan didn’t care when the Kurds got gassed in 1988 and not much effort was raised against Sudan’s recent genocide – certainly not compared the big fuss and guessing game as to whether Saddm had WMDs or not.
Again if we can wean ourselves from cheap(ish) oil from undemocratic Middle Eastern countries and cheap stuff from undemocratic sweatshop China then the West would be more self-sufficient. And some countries – possibly even China – would be more likely to change its way to join an exclusive democratic club if it had – as you would call it – stones – and self-interest. If you give all this aid, trade and loans to undemocratic regimes then you are just propping them up. Look at the power the US used to have economically – when Britain France and Israel clubbed together to retake Suez back from Egypt they forgot to gain permission from the US. Eisenhower certainly punished Eden economically and he withdrew.
I believe continents should, in the main, look after themselves. So Africa should sort out Zimbabwe, Europe should of sorted out Yugoslavia etc. Certain islands of democratics like Japan and Israel would need protection.
where bush did what he felt was best for this nation and it’s people, obama will do what is best for him and his buddies. bush has class and grace, obama is a bratty little man trying to play in the big leagues. when he falls he will try and blame bush, i don’t think it will work. he is backing out of the crap that got him elected and he will keep doing so, and then the mobs of brainwashed freaks will wonder what the hell happened. bush has more class in his little toe than all of obama and his transition team.
Of course Bush or Cheney would never dream of helping their buddies out
He got caught being a thankless idiot with no manners. He immediately spun this negative back on President Bush. The manchild can’t help it.
Hey bambi, can I get you a smaller chair?
Obama is a “narcissistic man who is severly mistaken”. Unfortunately, the libs would rather vote in a man who is ‘looking out for himself’ and tear to shreds for 8 years a man who desired to ‘serve them’ and sacrifice his own legacy in order to keep their families safe. They are idiots.
Obama is the most pompous elitist in politics I have ever seen next to Bill Clinton.
Another sickening thing is how they are NOW saying Bush is a ‘good man’, ‘gracious’ etc.. BUT, he is ‘mistaken’.. ON WHAT? He was only mistaken on the things he agreed with the liberals on. The rest he did exceptionally well, but it has taken our ‘thankathon’ and others like Ingraham, Limbaugh and Hannity to expose all the things he has done right and believe me it outweighs the bad.
Two different worlds Mr Aces, one with class and then the other one………
George Bush is a gentleman, B. Hussein Obama is not!
You Obama haters are really outrageous… you dream really well if you believe Bush is the better man.
Your a Bush hater Certified Real American Patriot aka C.R.A.P.
You have some nerve pointing fingers at others.
You people go out of your way to trash Bush at every opportunity even when he is being gracious to you.
He’s saved thousands of your worthless lives and this is the thanks he gets?
Ironic that someone who voted for Al Franken thinks he is qualified to lecture those who have recognized the leftist wringer President Bush was put through for eight years that he rose above with his class and dignity intact.
Having had the manchild muck up Illinois and again for an absentee Senator in DC while he ran for president, I can attest to the empty suit he is, has been and will be. He is worse than any of the accusations thrown at President Bush by the left. Once Obama is sworn in I will hope for the best for this country, but knowing how he operated in the past leads me to hope that change applies to Obama first and foremost.
You expect class from a street corner crack head who was dragged out, promoted and financed by the enemies of America. The enemy outsmarted the American people by using their own mental retardation (aka BDS) to put their man in the office of POTUS. If you put Princess Caroline and King Barack on the stage togather without a teleprompter they couldn’t tell you what 2 + 2 equals with less than a thousand Uh, Um, Eh’s, and You knows. B Hussein O is nothing more or less than a trained parrot.
You have to love a disaster to be a firefigter/EMT so i’m going to enjoy watching the coming disaster even after I quit the volunteer (15 years) firefighter business on Jan 20, 2009. I will not serve those who have, and will continue to, destroy America in any capacity.
Thousands of businesses and Millions of jobs are gone due to the democrats busted ego’s which progressed to BDS, no other reason.
Ah yes. Class.
Going to be one heck of an inauguration, from all appearances.
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/dc-prostitution-free-zone-for-inaugural
Calling Obama ‘crass’ is giving him way too much credit.
“Of course Bush or Cheney would never dream of helping their buddies out”
Pure smear — notice no facts or examples? Typical left-wing rhetoric and attacks, no substance.
@ Romano
Try these…
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/bushco/cronyism.htm
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2006/3327halliburton_fraud.html
More objective sources Gaffa? Is that the same place you “learned” that Sarah Palin said she could see Russia from her house?
Give it a rest. Don’t forget the rules of the Thankathon: no moonbattery. You’ve already pushed those limits.
I was asked to put some examples. All sorts of links from non objective sites are used and you guys believe almost all the MSM is bias so what sites are objective? Do you dispute the information or that Bush and Cheney have shown examples of cronyism?
And you know as well as I did – that I didn’t quote Palin as having said that;)
@GaffaUK:
“Do you dispute the information or that Bush and Cheney have shown examples of cronyism?”
“Information” from Bush bashing sites is hardly what I would call credible.
You should know better.
Again, do you need a reminder about the rules for the Thankathon? This isn’t the time or the place for any more of that moonbattery. Play nice or else!
Then surely Mike why can’t you follow Bush’s example and be nice to Obama just until Tuesday?
@GaffaUK: Trust me… I am being nice to Obama.
Funny how you come here and Bush bash then toss that one out. The Obamatons who have thrown bile at Bush for 8 years have had the nerve to come around here and demand we show respect.
You’re not that much of a hypocrite are you Gaff?
@ Mike
I’m not demanding anything Mike. We are both bias. I have already shown that my comments about Bush aren’t always negative. I think you have even been know to criticise Bush. In the above thread – you started the Obama bash followed by Luva. So my retort was adding balance.
It seems you want a one-way critique of Bush with your thankathon. When a President goes then his record is examined and debated – warts and all. I just want a level playing field – either it’s a healthy debate or if it’s a positive piece about Bush then that should cover Obama during your Thankathon – or at least restrain from jibes as otherwise you are going to get counter jibes.
I’ve explained to you that this is part of the Bush Thankathon. How would you like it if someone came to your going away party and starting telling you all the things you did wrong? That’s why Obama’s comments were so totally inappropriate and offensive and why your comments were also not in line with the spirit of his occasion.
Frankly, I would find it a lot easier to show respect for Obama if the same people demanding it weren’t such nasty, hatefilled people.
You may not belong in that group, but you get pretty close to the border.
Do you at least recognize that the sources you linked above were hardly “objective?” or would you like to peruse the reading list in the first link before you answer:
http://www.powells.com/ppbs/28503.html
Well Mike, it what oabam THOUGHT Bush ahd done wrong because it wasn’t the socialist way.
This country will be wishing they had Bush back in a year or two.
Let’s all thank the 22nd amendment
@Hard Right: I warned repeatedly during the campaign about the hangover that is coming our way the day after we kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Obama and friends have already lined up $825billion with another $350 billion left from the original bailout plan. That’s one heck of a party but once it is over and the bill comes due who is going to pay? Take away all the money of the top 1% of Americans and you still can’t cover it.
@GaffaUK: Not willing to admit your “objective information” was tainted? No wonder you were misled about Palin.
Geez Louise… point out any political figure who does’t appoint “cronies”, or those that are close political friends and allies. Why is it a dirty word when applied to Bush or Cheney, but not PEBO and others? Absurd, Gaffa… really now.
Obama—the most classless and self-serving POTUS I have ever seen.
Even Clinton groaning with Lewinsky’s head in his lap has more class than Obama.
I’m not claiming that any info I present is objective. Nor do I believe most sources on here are objective.
Would you prefer Fox? Are they ‘objective’ enough for you? lol
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139051,00.html
@MataHarley
Exactly.
Hence why I disputed the 1st comment on here…
“where bush did what he felt was best for this nation and it’s people, obama will do what is best for him and his buddies.”
Although Cheney has taken this to new height (or should that be lows?)
“Let’s all thank the 22nd amendment” ~ GaffaUK
You mean the amendment the Dems now want to repeal with Chicago Jesus in the Oval Office? The Dems (Rep. Serrano, NY-D) have pushed a bill forward to repeal the 22nd — again. The Dems did this when Clintoon was president, too, but somehow didn’t manage to put a similar bill forward for the last eight years. Wonder why that was? So which party is it that wants us to have a Dictator For Life? Hint: Which party loves other countries’ Dictators For Life (Chavez, Mugabe, et.al.)?
@RickZ
Even with a majority – I don’t think the Democrats will go for this. I’m glad there is a 22nd amendment – for all Presidents – Democrat or Republican – aren’t you?
As for dictators for life – well seems all Presidents since Carter are happy to give lots of money to Egypt. How long has Mubarak been there now?
Besides – would you want Bush to have a 3rd or 4th term? The UK doesn’t have this – which is a shame – as we would of gotten rid of Blair in 2005. And Thatcher went on too long as well at 11+ years. If she had gone earlier due to the rules then she wouldn’t of been eventually pushed out by her own conservative party for over staying her welcome.
GaffaUK,
Trust me when I say this: A Bush 3rd term would be a helluva lot better than an Obama one term. Period. But I also think a presidential term limit is correct. I just want the Senate to have term limits, too. A six year term is a long time between elections, and we have too many senators who have been serving (a term I use loosely) for 15-30 years. The Senate has become the House of Lords. As for the House, running every two years really does not allow for much actual work to be done by a representative. I’m for making the House and Senate four year terms, with the same term limit as that currently placed upon the Presidency. While our Executive Branch changes, our Legislative Branch is stale. I’m also for placing term limits on the Judicial Branch (the SCOTUS) as well, say 15-20 years or the federally mandated retirement age, whichever comes first.
As for all presidents and Mubarak comment, yes, that’s true. And disgusting. Why the hell should my tax money fund such a regime? (Then again, I think that about our 22% contribution to the UN’s operating budget. Which, BTW, roughly corresponds with Japan’s UN budget contribution percentage. Funny that, two countries providing almost 50% of the UN’s operating budget. For what?) But don’t you find it funny that Bush was not only heavily criticized, but downright condemned for his removal of a dictator for life? Do you think Obama would have the stones to take the political heat Bush did in doing the right thing and getting rid of Sodamn Insane? Do you think Obama has the stones to do the right thing in any given sitiuation at all, given what we know of his scant and spotty past record? Or will he already be looking toward his legacy? I can see that legacy now: The Hope ‘N’ Che’nge Library! Bought and paid for by internet credit card donations with the verification system turned off. The Citizens of the World deserve it!
@RickZ
Well as a Brit I’m not so acquainted with your complete political system and it’s interesting to find out more about it but as I’m an over-opinionated troll (mistaken by some as a socialist) I reckon you’re right on having 4 year terms for the Senate and Congress. Btw – The House of Lords in the UK is shocking. I’ve been to the Houses of Parliament twice about electoral reform and I’ve heard even Liberal MPs defend the Retirement Home for unelected Cronies defended. Pay a lot of money to a political party and a bit of money to a charity and hey presto – you’re a Lord.
Anyway I can’t agree with you on Iraq. Removing Saddam was a side benefit – not the real goal. I think he got caught up in geo-politics of that region, 9/11 and oil. There’s plenty of dictators out there that the West not only ignores but actually either trades with, sales arms or even gives money to. Egypt is just one. Look at China’s human rights record. You know the British government are sending millions to help rebuild Gaza? Why? To repair buildings so Hamas can fire some more rockets off and have it flattened by Israel again. Waste of money. And Bush may send lots of aid to Africa – but see how corrupt most african countries are.
Instead I think the democratic West should withdraw from the UN and set up it’s own global organisation where only democratic countries which have the required true democratic minimum measures in place can be admitted (so Mugabe’s elections don’t count!). Then democratic countries should trade with one another. Encourage powerful nations like Russia to improve it’s ‘democracy’. I don’t think you can really encourage democracy in other countries using arms unless you want to spent billions or even trillions. Let the West find an alternative to oil and let the Middle East slug it out amonst themselves.
Defend Israel by all means and keep hold of Afganistan until you find Bin Laden and cleared out the Taliban for good – but the rest – leave them to it. When you have ‘allies’ like Pakistan getting huffy about US border attacks when they probably got Bin Laden then what sort of ally is that? I don’t think this would encourage a training ground for terrorism because the whole area of the Middle East IS already a training ground for terrorist – the Iraq War only helped them come together and refocus on the US. Usually they are too busy killing each other over whether the Shia or the Shite are true believers etc. Divide and conquer – the Brits used to be masters of this with their empire run on a shoestring. Of course they rarely introduced democracy at least not until they were about to head off.
GaffaUK,
“Instead I think the democratic West should withdraw from the UN and set up it’s own global organisation where only democratic countries which have the required true democratic minimum measures in place can be admitted (so Mugabe’s elections don’t count!). Then democratic countries should trade with one another. Encourage powerful nations like Russia to improve it’s ‘democracy’. I don’t think you can really encourage democracy in other countries using arms unless you want to spent billions or even trillions. Let the West find an alternative to oil and let the Middle East slug it out amonst themselves.”
I agree 110% with this, and have been saying so myself for a while now. An Organization of Democracies. Australia, India, and other appropriate countries. And I also agree with your economics issue because of the cost spent in just getting rid of one dictator in Iraq alone. We already face an ideological fault line with islam and dictators. Having such an organization would accelerate the process through which we come to terms with what must be done to preserve ourselves. We’re heading toward global war soon anyway. Time to pick allies and choose sides.
“Divide and conquer – the Brits used to be masters of this with their empire run on a shoestring. Of course they rarely introduced democracy at least not until they were about to head off.”
That’s a good paragraph overall, but to add to the thought above. The Brits really did run an Empire, and on a shoestring, as you state. The US, though, is not such an empire. We do a pretty good job of setting up democracies when we put our mind and will to it. Places like South Korea, Japan, Germany, Italy, all come to mind. It’s a shame about China, though. During the WWII, the Chinese were overwhelmingly supportive of the US. How things could have been different if the Long March had not succeeded, had Chiang Kai-shek not been the other choice. But when it comes to Iraq, hence islam, we have blinders. There is no way any part of shari’a should have been incorporated into the Iraqi Constitution. We freed the Japanese women after WWII, and look at how that’s worked out for both the women and Japan. To enslave Iraqi women now is just absurd. Our Government is blinkered, blinded by the ‘islam is the Religion of Peace’ BS. An Organization of Democracies might just clarify our thinking a little bit.
@RickZ
Well – I’m not saying the US should create an empire – just that instead of the West digging ourselves deeper in to debt with a needless war whilst China gets ever closer to superpower status by largely keeping out of such politics (as least action) – the West should set up it’s own network of democracy for democracies.
And I’m not saying we should go into isolationist mode because there are plenty of democracies to trade with. And of course direct action will sometimes need to take place with non-democracies in the case of Al-Queda and Afganistan. The reason the West doesn’t go into places like Zimbabwe and China – it’s because it’s not worth it – either resource wise or they’re too strong or we have too much too lose in other ways (e.g. trade with China). Iraq wasn’t worth the price tag. Reagan didn’t care when the Kurds got gassed in 1988 and not much effort was raised against Sudan’s recent genocide – certainly not compared the big fuss and guessing game as to whether Saddm had WMDs or not.
Again if we can wean ourselves from cheap(ish) oil from undemocratic Middle Eastern countries and cheap stuff from undemocratic sweatshop China then the West would be more self-sufficient. And some countries – possibly even China – would be more likely to change its way to join an exclusive democratic club if it had – as you would call it – stones – and self-interest. If you give all this aid, trade and loans to undemocratic regimes then you are just propping them up. Look at the power the US used to have economically – when Britain France and Israel clubbed together to retake Suez back from Egypt they forgot to gain permission from the US. Eisenhower certainly punished Eden economically and he withdrew.
I believe continents should, in the main, look after themselves. So Africa should sort out Zimbabwe, Europe should of sorted out Yugoslavia etc. Certain islands of democratics like Japan and Israel would need protection.
Gaffa: It warms my heart to see you playing so nice. See… you can do it.
But this caught my eye: “as I’m an over-opinionated troll (mistaken by some as a socialist)”
Who do you think you are fooling besides yourself?
P.S. Careful not to mention religion RickZ. Gaffa is a secular socialist!