An Open Letter To Gays

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UnknownTo my gay friends; I know, you think I don’t have gay friends, but I have many customers who are gay and I often spend hours talking to them, while I am working, like I do with my straight customers. However, this post is for all the gay people, not just those who own horses.

There was a terrible tragedy in Orlando, this past weekend. I can imagine the pain and feelings of remorse that are running through the gay community, but let me tell you, there are feelings of sadness and grief in the conservative community as well. The liberal media has painted us as homophobes and I am sure there are many homo haters among us; however, there are many more who felt personal injury from the loss of these young lives, in Orlando. To us, the victims were not just gays, they were our gays and they were Americans. My heart goes out to you.

In the political world, our leaders and potential leaders are doing phenomenal oral gymnastics to caste blame and to avoid blame, but you don’t need me to tell you, it’s obvious if you listen to the news. Listen carefully, and you will hear another message, a subliminal message. It is about gays and the ultimate sacrifice Obama expects you to make, while he brings in an unknown amount of radical jihadists to achieve his vision of a North American caliphate and Sharia. “OH Boy.”

We conservatives were sold down river by the GOP elites, after the last two midterm elections. We elected politicians who ran as conservatives and after being elected, served as stooges for the donor class and the elite ruling class of the Beltway. Donald Trump is no fool; he picked up on the anger and read the feelings of Americans who were betrayed. He may be the next president, simply because he was willing to listen to the frustration of everyday Americans.

The gay community had better hope Trump is elected, because the pant suit woman is dedicated to continuing the Islamization of America and you gays will regret your support of this insanity.

Gays are being betrayed by the progressives. They have sold you out to appease Muslim clerics and their message of death to Jews and Gays. The trick is to make the murder of your gay friends by Islamic maniacs, seem like the fault of contrary conservatives and that the loss of a few gays is a small price to pay to see Obama’s dreams come to fruition. When was the last time you heard one of your leaders condemn the lynching of gays or the tossing of gays off buildings in the Middle East. You just had 49 of your friends killed in a horrific terror attack and our president and your nominee are only worried about disarming law-abiding citizens.

As a friend, let me tell you: there are thousands of people who carry a weapon and are proficient in their use. Many of them would have risked their life to bring down the homicidal maniac before he racked up so many kills in the Pulse nightclub. Now, it might not be right away, but I will predict that many of us will be playing cowboys and Muslims in the near future. Your president is forcing the issue and he has made it clear that bringing in a few  jihadists with peaceful Muslims is a price we should be prepared to pay. Unfortunately, gays will be expected to pay a higher price, because of real homophobia among the radical, Sharia loving Muslims.

I recommend buying a weapon and becoming well versed in its use or avoid congregating with your friends in large groups, while waiting, like sacrificial lambs, to be shot to pieces by Obama’s gay hating jihadists. You have probably noticed, he is not going to great lengths to bring in Christians from the Middle East, he only wants the guys who hate homosexuals, but are willing to kill them with compassion.

A professional horseman for over 40 years, Skook continues to work with horses. He is in an ongoing educational program, learning life's lessons from one of the world's greatest instructors, the horse. Skook has finished an historical novel that traces a mitochondrial line of DNA from 50,000 years ago to the present. The book Fifty-Thousand Years is awaiting me to finish a final proofread and it should be sent to the formatter in a matter of days. I am still working, so it is not easy to devote the time I need to finish the project. The cover is a beautiful wok of art. I would put it up here if I could figure out how to make it work.

82 Responses to “An Open Letter To Gays”

  1. 51

    Nanny G

    @George Wells:
    Boy! Talk about taking a phrase out of context!
    Here’s what Pat Robinson actually said:

    “One more time I want to mention that this is a religious belief, it is deeply ingrained in the people, and for when our president refuses to acknowledge it, and when our Secretary of State, now our Democratic presidential nominee refuses to acknowledge it and says that this is a slur against a great religion, is nonsense.
    This is what this ”great religious” teaches.
    It is right in the warp and woof of Islam.
    So, whether you like it or not, that’s Islam.
    The left is having a dilemma of major proportions and I think for those of us who disagree with some of their policies, the best thing to do is to sit on the sidelines and let them kill themselves.”

    In other words, NOT watch gays and Muslims kill one another…..watch those Lefties implode and figuratively kill one another.
    The cognitive dissonance has hit critical mass with the way the Left has responded to it by putting Muslims on the top of the “Victim” pyramid.
    Gays have been dropped off the pyramid completely.
    And the ”narrative” of gun control is more important to the Left now than GLBT lives.
    Thus the Left is imploding.
    Get out of the way and watch.

  2. 52

    Nanny G

    @George Wells: Then to add to that:
    http://www.snopes.com/pat-robertson-orlando-shooting/
    You accepted a false report to the effect that Pat Robertson said this Pulse massacre was God’s punishment for the SCOTUS decision.
    Snopes:

    Pat Robertson said no such thing, however. Newslo is a site that mixes tiny bits of real news with heaping piles of fake news, leaving it to readers to click a “Show Facts” button to highlight which portion of a given article is actually true. In this case, only the initial paragraph (describing the Orlando shooting) of the report was real, and everything following it (relating to Pat Robertson) was false.

    Try it yourself:
    http://www.newslo.com/pat-robertson-orlando-shooting-gods-punishment-scotus-sex-marriage-ruling/

  3. 53

    Richard Wheeler

    @Nanny G: The left is not imploding.
    Intelligent thinkers on the right like Bill O’Reilly are coming around.
    Imploding That would be Trump’s numbers–only he can find a way to lose to HRC Rubio or Kasich would be UP 10

  4. 54

    George Wells

    @Retire05 #50:
    When it comes to the subject of homosexuality, there isn’t much difference between what Christianity and Islam prescribe:

    The Bible: Leviticus 20:13:
    ”’If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death…”

    The Quran (7:80-84) – “…For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds…. And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)” (This is essentially an account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom.)

    The Hadith (the record of sayings and traditions allegedly having come from Mohammad):
    “When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes,” and “Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to.”

    The religious mythology of the ancient world was uniformly hostile to homosexuality, and that tradition is well-represented in BOTH Christian and Muslim doctrine. A lot of back-peddling and word-juggling has been offered by both Christian and Muslim theologians in recent years in an attempt to “soften” the harsh proscriptions against homosexuals found in the content of their respective dogmas, but those original texts have not been expunged, and literalists of both religious stripe use them as justification for hateful action.

    No, Pat Robertson didn’t pull the trigger, but his observation that Omar Mateen was working GOD’s will as punishment for the SCOTUS decision on same-sex marriage certainly doesn’t rise to a standard of condemnation one might expect in a lawful society. Even idiot Trump knows better than that, but then again, Trump isn’t a Christian. But Robertson is, and he speaks for many.

  5. 55

    George Wells

    Nanny G #51:

    Robertson’s words were in the context of a Muslim having KILLED 49 gays. His final words on the matter were: “let them KILL themselves.”
    There is nothing in what he said that implies that this final exhortation was “figurative.”

  6. 56

    Bill

    @George Wells: #54. But, who is currently preaching following those scriptures, to the letter? Who is currently FOLLOWING those scriptures?

    While you twist, turn and contort to TRY and make this what it isn’t, Muslims are currently DOING the things you take such offense at someone obliquely implying. Nowadays, that actually could get you killed… and not by a Christian.

  7. 57

    George Wells

    @Nanny G #52:

    I have no doubt that Robertson said what was reported. He spoke to many reporters, and just because you found a source that disputes the quote doesn’t mean that he didn’t say it.
    Robertson has his CBN headquarters right here in Virginia Beach where I live, and we’ve been blessed with a lifetime worth of his delightful pronouncements of which natural disasters – hurricanes, earthquakes and what have you – were evidence of GOD’s displeasure over the relaxation of hateful laws designed to punish homosexuals. A mass killing isn’t a logical stretch when you’re using this sort of reasoning.
    This nonsense is nothing new for Robertson – it has been one of his favorite themes for decades, one that he likes to interject while making pitches to his viewing audience for more money. He suggests to his viewers that their donations will go to fight the very enemies of GOD who make HIM visit devastation upon us all, and that their generosity will win the day and save everyone the cost of rebuilding after the NEXT “natural” disaster.

    If you knew this charlatan well, you’d know that he makes these sort of statements routinely, and you wouldn’t embarrass yourself by defending him.

  8. 58

    Nanny G

    @Richard Wheeler: Bill O’Reilly is a registered INDEPENDENT.
    He sways Left then Right then back throughout each week.

    Wikipedia:

    William James O’Reilly, Jr.
    September 10, 1949 (age 66)

    Occupation Political commentator
    Years active 1975–present

    Political party Independence Party of New York
    Religion Roman Catholic

  9. 59

    Nanny G

    @George Wells:
    I have no particular love for Pat R., George.
    But the only site that says what you alleged about SCOTUS is NOT a news site.
    The site added non-facts to the point of utter absurdity, waiting for your eyebrows to go up in realization.
    Yours never did.

  10. 60

    George Wells

    @Bill #56:

    You have a legitimate point that the PULSE murders were perpetrated by a Muslim.

    I have a legitimate point that there are CHRISTIAN evangelicals and Republican lawmakers who have rationalized those murders as evidence of GOD’s will.

    The basis for Omar Mateen’s hatred of homosexuals SUPPOSEDLY derives from the Islamic proscriptions against homosexuality found in ITS religious dogma, EXACTLY AS Christian/Republican hatred derives from the virtually identical scriptural hostility against gays expressed in the Bible.

    You seem to be making the argument that Muslims are “Bad” because they follow the guidance that their religion provides, while Christians are “Good” for ignoring what the Bible teaches.

    That’s a bit confusing. Both religions take the same, VIOLENT position on homosexuality. You dance away from your own faith’s teaching on the subject, and somehow believe that doing so makes you, what? A “better” Christian?

    What good is ANY religion if it doesn’t encourage its followers to behave decently?

  11. 61

    George Wells

    @Nanny G #59:

    I will again suggest that you desist in your defense of Pat Robertson.

    That nut-case beseeched his viewers to join him in praying to GOD for the deaths of several liberal Supreme Court justices back when it became obvious that the SCOTUS was about to decide in favor of Same-sex marriage.

    I can dredge up an arm-long list of Robertson’s anti-gay rants that more than proves the point that he’s taken the “Christian” excuse for homophobia to heart.

    What point are YOU attempting to make in defending him?

  12. 62

    retire05

    @George Wells:

    @Retire05 #50:
    When it comes to the subject of homosexuality, there isn’t much difference between what Christianity and Islam prescribe:

    The Bible: Leviticus 20:13:
    ”’If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death…”

    OK, so you have to reach into the Old Testament for any Biblical quote that advocates killing of homosexuals. Perhaps you don’t understand what the term “Christianity” means.

    I would suggest that you read 1 Corinthians 9-11. It does not say that those men who lie with other men should be killed, but rather gives a list of sinners, including, but not exclusively, homosexuals, who shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Christ (the origin of the word Christianity) did not advocate the killing of homosexuals. Your knowledge of Scriptures is painfully lacking.

  13. 63

    George Wells

    @Retire05 #62:
    I quote the Old Testament because it IS part of the BIBLE, the same BIBLE that convinces some “Christians” (most noteworthy Ussher) that the World is only 6020 years old, a conclusion that they reach after reading Genesis. While a great many “Christians” are sane enough to discount the Biblical implications that suggest such a constricted chronology for our planet, there are others who accept every word of scripture literally, and it is these fools who not only BELIEVE that the Earth “began” in 4004 BC, but who ALSO BELIEVE in what the Old Testament has to say about homosexuality. They simply don’t bother to take “GOD’s” advice about what to do about it because they would prefer to stay out of prison or worse, having something better to live for than Omar Mateen evidently had.

    The “anti-gay” passages in both the Bible and the Quran date from traditions millennia old by the time Christ showed up on the radar of religious fanaticism. And you are indeed correct that Christ didn’t advocate killing much of anyone for any reason, but HIS temperate demeanor hasn’t stopped his followers – “Christians” – from murdering millions of people IN HIS NAME. Neither did the authors of the New Testament bothered to refute what the Old Testament said about homosexuality. Yeah, I get that they softened their tone, and they pretty much dropped the “abomination” and “stoning-to-death” references, but for the average reader, a sin is a sin, and all too many of them feel compelled to step in and do GOD’s work when it comes to punishing the sins of their fellow man. That pretty much puts them in the same boat as their Muslim counterparts, but just doesn’t seat them as far forward as their radical ISIS brothers-in-hate.

    Doesn’t it make you feel wonderfully superior to be able to point to others and accuse them of wicked sin, and cheerfully predict their burning in Hell, all the while congratulating yourself for NOT murdering them? What an incredibly silly religion you have!

  14. 64

    George Wells

    @Retire05 #62:

    “OK, so you have to reach into the Old Testament for any Biblical quote that advocates killing of homosexuals.
    I would suggest that you read 1 Corinthians 9-11. It does not say that those men who lie with other men should be killed”

    And what Earthly good comes of a schizophrenic mythology that can’t make up its mind on important issues?
    That piece of man-made fiction has been edited, revised, reworked and expunged repeatedly for centuries, and yet it still is full of contradictory nonsense. Why anyone bothers trying to make sense of it is a mystery to me.

  15. 65

    retire05

    @George Wells:

    George, you have been, and remain, a pathetic, small person. I have said before, and will say again, I feel sorry for you. You seem to have no other purpose in life than to justify your lifestyle. Your personal misery is apparent for all to see.

  16. 66

    Bill

    @George Wells:

    I have a legitimate point that there are CHRISTIAN evangelicals and Republican lawmakers who have rationalized those murders as evidence of GOD’s will.

    You seem far more concerned with someone’s perceived (you were shown the full context) “rationalization” than with what you are accusing them of rationalizing or the actual, real, tangible threat of MORE of these killings.

    The basis for Omar Mateen’s hatred of homosexuals SUPPOSEDLY derives from the Islamic proscriptions against homosexuality found in ITS religious dogma, EXACTLY AS Christian/Republican hatred derives from the virtually identical scriptural hostility against gays expressed in the Bible.

    “Supposedly”? What would it take to convince you? Far worse than this goes on daily in ISIS controlled territories and gays are officially persecuted in Muslim countries.

    You seem to be making the argument that Muslims are “Bad” because they follow the guidance that their religion provides, while Christians are “Good” for ignoring what the Bible teaches.

    Yeah, well, I’m a bit weird that way. See, I think “naughty, naughty, thou shalt not or thou will go to Hell” is not as bad as “bang, bang, bang X 49”. But, that’s just me.

    That’s a bit confusing. Both religions take the same, VIOLENT position on homosexuality. You dance away from your own faith’s teaching on the subject, and somehow believe that doing so makes you, what? A “better” Christian?

    I’m not dancing at all. I tell you what, let’s conduct a little experiment. Why don’t you walk into MY church, walk up to the lectern and pronounce, “I am a gay man that believes in gay marriage.” Then, go to Minnesota or Florida, walk into one of their radical mosques and make the same pronouncement (NOTE: make SURE you try the Christian venue first… very important). Why don’t you travel to Saudi Arabia and try the same thing (provided you can FIND a Christian church that is still standing). What do you think?

    Speaking of dancing, I can fully understand Democrats using this tragedy to further their liberal agenda and the left wing pursuit of disarming America. However, I am somewhat surprised to see a gay man playing the same games with these 49 lives. Demeaning these deaths by making it, not about the actual motive which IS (not supposedly) radical Islam motivated by ISIS, but about gun control and Christianity. Why would YOU be joining in on the grave-pissing?

    I guess now would be a good time for you to remind me of how conservative you are. I think I am falling off the wagon once again.

    What good is ANY religion if it doesn’t encourage its followers to behave decently?

    I am pretty sure that if you weren’t so blindly partisan, accepting only the left wing version of everything, you would realize that the vast majority of Christian churches are very accepting of the gay PERSON, though not accepting the lifestyle, as most normal people do not.

    I think this story encapsulates the liberal mindset.

    Club patron blocked exit to protect himself
    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/06/wow-pulse-club-patron-admits-blocked-exit-club-condemning-gays-certain-death/

    The party animal is the liberal establishment. Locking the exit after he had gained safety (instead of running away… duh) is the liberal agenda; doing stupid things that don’t even SEEM intelligent to benefit themselves. Then, they wonder, “I wonder if doing such a moronic thing got anyone killed? Gee, it would sadden me a bit if it did. But, on the other hand, I got mine.”

  17. 67

    George Wells

    @Retire05 #65:

    Your tacit acknowledgement that there IS no effective rebuttal to the truth contained in my previous posts is graciously accepted. Thanks for paying me the compliment of your concession speech.

  18. 68

    George Wells

    (What comment? The above line is not from me.)

    @Bill #66:

    “The basis for Omar Mateen’s hatred of homosexuals SUPPOSEDLY derives from the Islamic proscriptions against homosexuality found in ITS religious dogma, EXACTLY AS Christian/Republican hatred derives from the virtually identical scriptural hostility against gays expressed in the Bible.
    “Supposedly”?”

    I said “supposedly” because there is some legitimate question as to Mateen’s motivation. On the surface, his calls to the media proclaiming alliance with ISIS and his agreement with the Tsarnaev brothers APPEARS to be straight-forward and conclusive, but sometimes, such obvious evidence is planted to distract from a more sinister truth. I am sure that you are aware that there exists a body of corroborating evidence that suggests that Mateen had a considerable homosexual component to his personality, and as a Muslim he certainly would have been internally conflicted with that fact. His heterosexual life hadn’t been a resounding success, and his employment career left much to be desired – he was a walking sack of personal disappointment – and how conveniently self-serving to brush all that under the flying carpet by LOUDLY proclaiming to the World his Jihadist self-sacrifice in the service of the Islamic State. I said “supposedly” because I’m not stupid enough to bite on the first baited hook that gets dangled in front of my face. I take it that you are?

    “Demeaning these deaths by making it… about gun control and Christianity.”

    Really? Gun control???? Where did I say one word about gun control? Please, link to that reference so that I might apologize to my fellow Second Amendment supporters!
    And my remarks that included Christianity ALSO included Islam and were pointedly about RELIGION, not about one faith or the other. The whole theme was that BOTH Islam AND Christianity inherited their homophobia from the same hateful mythology, and that their respective solutions to the “problem” were correspondingly identical. I don’t single out one religion over the other as being the MOST hateful – they BOTH say to “kill homosexuals.”

    Now, there IS a very difficult question raised by this PULSE tragedy, and that is the question of what can be done to stop such from happening again. The short answer to that question is “NOTHING.”
    Trump’s suggestion that Muslims be denied entry into the country wouldn’t have prevented it, as Omar Mateen was born here. His parents are – APPARENTLY – well assimilated Americans who have no radical Islamic dimension and who would have been granted entry under even the most rigorous vetting. And if the American rule became “NO Muslims under any conditions,” people would simply deny being Muslim. Similarly, there is no conceivable measure of gun control that would have prevented Mateen from gaining whatever gun/guns he might have wanted for his little hunting party. The nation is awash in all manner of fire-power – more guns than people – and making them illegal would be about as effective as outlawing blowjobs.

    $hit happens. This time it was a fellow named Mateen, and his targets happened to be gay. Maybe he WAS simply a radical Muslim who left a deceptive trail of evidence to intentionally suggest that his crime was “Fag-on-Fag.” I’m not an omnipotent GOD who can know all things, so I DON’T know. But I also DO know that there is no way to prevent such tragedies when people like Mateen become motivated to cause them.

    I blame homophobia on religion for the reasons stated. I blame the Pulse tragedy on religion by association, regardless of whether Mateen’s motivation was political, religious or psychological. I find it regrettable that BOTH political parties in America have been posturing to take political advantage of this tragedy, one for support of its anti-immigration stance and the other for its gun-control agenda, but there certainly is no surprise in that.

    And as an American, I find it regrettable that lives were needlessly taken – lost – regardless of their – or my – sexual orientation, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to stop people from killing each other. It’s a sport that is enjoying increasing popularity. If you know how to stop people from killing each other, why are you keeping that knowledge to yourself?

  19. 69

    retire05

    @George Wells:

    Thanks for paying me the compliment of your concession speech.

    Concession speech? You re truly delusional.

    Bottom line? You are here (at FA) only to justify your own lifestyle and choices. And while you (as in the collective you) demand tolerance for those choices, and now insist that the other 98% of us accept you as normal, you mock our religious beliefs ( What an incredibly silly religion you have!) which are protected in the United States Constitution while your right to bugger another man is not.

    Frankly, George, you long ago ceased to be worth my time.

  20. 70

    Bill

    @retire05: Come on… these are the people that think a radicalized Muslim yelling “Allah akbar” as they shoot people is a gun control issue. You aren’t going to get through to them and make them understand even the simplest of facts.

  21. 71

    exboyracer

    So now we are finding out that he wasn’t really a radical religious wacko. But your run of the mill homophobic wacko. I am certainly not voting for a bigoted wacko like
    trump and his disgusting followers.

  22. 73

    Bill

    @George Wells:

    I said “supposedly” because there is some legitimate question as to Mateen’s motivation.

    No, there is some politically expedient question as to Mateen’s motivation.

    Really? Gun control???? Where did I say one word about gun control? Please, link to that reference so that I might apologize to my fellow Second Amendment supporters!

    I was speaking more generally about you and your left wing fellow travelers. No, you have not attacked the 2nd Amendment; you have maintained your attack on Christianity. I mention them both together because they are equally non-applicable and idiotic. However, do you denounce Obama, Hillary and the rest of the left for making this a gun control issue?

    Now, there IS a very difficult question raised by this PULSE tragedy, and that is the question of what can be done to stop such from happening again. The short answer to that question is “NOTHING.”

    How can you say “nothing”? This tragedy could have easily been avoided altogether. First, we now know there were at LEAST 5 opportunities to flag Mateen as a potential terrorist. One and two, he was investigated by the FBI for terrorist associations. Three, he traveled to Saudi Arabia; for some, traveling to a Muslim country gets you put on the “no-fly” list, even if you aren’t a Muslim. For a Muslim, traveling back and forth to a Muslim nation that is a terrorist hot-spot is a red flag. Four, he was complained about by coworkers for his violent nature and radial proclamations. Lastly, on of the gun store owners he visited (you know, those evil gun peddlers that want to give guns to terrorists) called the FBI and told them of the suspicious guy named Omar Mateen that was shopping for body armor, bulk ammunition and speaking Arabic on the phone to another party. Those are the cracks he fell through that I know of. With all those missed opportunities, it is defeatist to claim “nothing can be done”.

    You know what else can be done? This administration can reverse their strict policy of purging reports of anything with Muslim characteristics… that’s how we missed five good opportunities to stop this guy before he could fire a single round.

    Now, if I had a gay bar that was now, as we should be fully aware, are targeted by (not Christian) but Muslim extremists, I would post men above the dance floor in cages with… yep, you guessed it… AR-15’s. They would watch down on the “festivities” and would absolutely prevent a reprise of Orlando.

    Trump’s suggestion that Muslims be denied entry into the country wouldn’t have prevented it, as Omar Mateen was born here

    So, you feel wisdom is, since we already have some radicalized terrorists already in country, we should now worry about letting tens of thousands MORE in? Explain that logic to me, please.

    I blame homophobia on religion for the reasons stated

    There is no possible argument that there is homophobia embedded in religions. It is, after all, written down. However, while Mohammad himself preached killing gays and infidels and he IS the leader of the religion, Jesus preached acceptance, forgiveness and peace. No doubt, many, including myself, fall far short of the mark Jesus establishes, but blaming violence on anyone on Christianity obviously has other motivations other than fact.

    Another thing; a large portion of homophobia can be blamed on the gay community. The “in your face” attitude of the community does not promote acceptance or even acceptability. The gaudy parades in which gays try to be as offensive and brazen as is possible is provocative and the latest episode of forcing people to accept men in women’s restrooms only adds to the frustration.

    I am not saying in any way that this justifies violent thoughts or actions.

    I am not saying in any way that this justifies violent thoughts or actions. I repeated that so there should be NO WAY you can miss it. However, to those who are predisposed to hate homosexuality and to whom cold blooded murder is not only acceptable but a pathway to heaven, the gay community has to share some of the blame

    By the way, the Hollywood culture is just has guilty, with their adulterous promiscuity and denigration of morals.

    It’s a sport that is enjoying increasing popularity.

    It has gotten somewhat more popular simultaneously with the rise of radical Islam. Coincidence?

  23. 75

    George Wells

    @Bill #73:
    Thank you for acknowledging that I have not EVER attacked Second Amendment rights. As I have no AFFILIATION with those who do, I wonder at your choice to include me with THEIR agenda.

    If armed troops were stationed not only in gay bars but EVERYWHERE, the numbers of people murdered would likely NOT change, but it WOULD change the methods used by terrorists to accomplish their murderous goals. I agree that it WOULD probably reduce the number of deaths that result from single-gunman attacks such as was the case at PULSE. Remember that terrorists have a number of other equally effective methods of killing that DON’T present a convenient target for law enforcement personnel to shoot at…

    “since we already have some radicalized terrorists already in country, we should now worry about letting tens of thousands MORE in? Explain that logic to me, please.”

    I’m having a bit of trouble understanding what you are asking me here. Since I already support closing our borders to immigration – with the caveat that building a “wall” won’t actually accomplish that goal – I don’t understand why you expect me to explain the logic of the opposing position.

    If the United States chooses to deport illegal aliens (that’s a good place to start) then I’ll happily pay my share of the cost of doing so, but considering Republican opposition to raising taxes for ANY reason, I suspect that doing even that much is politically impossible. Simply deporting illegal Muslims would SEEM to be a much less costly and much more efficient way of solving the immediate problem, but it would require a measure of religious profiling that current jurisprudence considers distinctly unconstitutional. And deporting LEGAL Muslims is even less palatable from the constitutional standpoint, even if it WOULD help mitigate the risk of “home-grown terrorism.” And every other measure that you suggest or imply would immediately infringe upon the freedoms and privacy rights of the persons being “monitored,” would expand “big government” proportionately to the scope of the intrusion into citizens’ private lives and would ALSO cost an enormous heap of treasure because, as you have so often noted, “Big Government can’t do anything cheaply OR efficiently. We are left with a bag of “solutions” that are politically unacceptable, practically impossible and financially unaffordable. On the other hand, we have a LONG history of ACCEPTING a steady stream of gun violence (both individual- and mass-murders) for every reason under the sun. Does the fact that the PULSE murders MAY have been motivated by religious extremism make them any MORE objectionable than the deaths of a few dozen college students who were killed because the shooter’s girlfriend dumped him?

    And by the way – I caught the interview with the gun shop person who reported to the FBI that someone had tried to buy body armor and 1000 rounds. I heard him say that he didn’t get Mateen’s name, so he couldn’t give THAT information to the FBI. If he was telling the truth, then the FBI didn’t have anything to investigate. I will agree that Mateen shouldn’t have been allowed to buy guns, but he did so legally. I support Second Amendment rights, but I also support more limitations on who gets those rights. It means more funding for the FBI, and that means more taxes. More security comes at a price, and I’m not interested in robbing Peter to pay Paul. Take it or leave it.

    Your “In-your-face” comments are curious. The “acceptance” that you seem to desire is a myth – the myth of the closet, the myth that NOT knowing the truth is better than the alternative. I don’t expect racists to enjoying seeing Black folk on TV or in restaurants that they frequent, and I don’t expect them to like soul or rap music, or to actually LIKE Blacks. Similarly, I don’t expect homophobes to be happy about seeing gay characters on TV, or to hear gays talking about THEIR rights or THEIR lovers, or to actually LIKE gays. But ALL of the people on BOTH sides of these divides enjoy the SAME rights of free speech and of association, and this limits the degree to which you or anyone else can restrict their lawful behavior. This includes the aggressive behavior of abortion opponents who interfere with abortion clinic operations and the access the public has to them. We ALL have these rights, regardless of what you or I believe is OBJECTIONABLE. I would caution you on blaming violence on cultural differences, as that leads to something that is decidedly un-American.

  24. 76

    Nanny G

    @George Wells: If armed troops were stationed not only in gay bars but EVERYWHERE, the numbers of people murdered would likely NOT change, but it WOULD change the methods used by terrorists to accomplish their murderous goals. I agree that it WOULD probably reduce the number of deaths that result from single-gunman attacks such as was the case at PULSE.

    Interesting, George.
    Restricted entry and armed guards.
    Around EVERYTHING.
    Sounds suspiciously like a border reinforcement.
    Israel is currently walling in Gaza, all of Gaza.
    A 60 foot pre-poured concrete wall of individual slabs, 20 feet underground, 40 feet above.
    The gates will be full of armed Israelis.
    Israel will still give the people of Gaza 200 truckloads of food every day, but only medical emergencies and approved workers can leave Gaza for Israel. Day passes will be strictly enforced. So will searches of people wanting to come into Israel.

    Isn’t that easier than guns and guards around everything here?
    Just guard the borders and guard the gates in those borders.

    It is also likely that patterns would emerge to point to radicalizing mosques and imams, to radicalizing muslims in our prisons, to radicalizing web sites, etc.
    Instead of erasing the dots, our gov’t should connect the dots and use conspiracy charges to close mosques and imprison individuals whether high or low in islam, plus close web sites and go after the posters of radicalization.
    Slowly, but surely, islamic terrorism could be kicked back.

  25. 77

    Bill

    @George Wells:

    Thank you for acknowledging that I have not EVER attacked Second Amendment rights. As I have no AFFILIATION with those who do, I wonder at your choice to include me with THEIR agenda.

    No, you affiliate yourself with those who blame EVERYTHING but the actual cause of the shootings, radical Islam.

    I’m having a bit of trouble understanding what you are asking me here. Since I already support closing our borders to immigration – with the caveat that building a “wall” won’t actually accomplish that goal – I don’t understand why you expect me to explain the logic of the opposing position.

    So, even though you brought it up in the context of not preventing THIS attack, you agree that we should suspend Muslim immigration until we have the capability to sort out the terrorists from the refugees. That’s good… it’s good to agree.

    If the United States chooses to deport illegal aliens (that’s a good place to start) then I’ll happily pay my share of the cost of doing so, but considering Republican opposition to raising taxes for ANY reason, I suspect that doing even that much is politically impossible.

    The cost of illegal immigration to the American taxpayer is in the hundreds of billions dollars a year. Estimates vary (as do the estimates of how many are here) but it has been estimated upwards to $300 billion. If we can divert that cost towards immigration control, it will be very cost effective. However, I don’t think that would be necessary. If proof of legal residency would be demanded for receipt of any taxpayer-funded benefits, illegal immigrants would have to self-deport; they would not be able to afford to live here. But none of that is going to happen until the Democrats make this a perpetual campaign issue (instead of solving it) and the media supports their cause.

    Oh… and the wall around the White House is being raised… again.

    I guess I never saw the complete interview with the gun shop owner and I assumed that if he reported the suspicious activity, he reported the name. My mistake.

    Your “In-your-face” comments are curious. The “acceptance” that you seem to desire is a myth – the myth of the closet, the myth that NOT knowing the truth is better than the alternative.

    No, I don’t want anyone to remain in the closet. However, don’t come bursting out of the closet in a banana hammock and a feather boa, hug me and expect me to be happy with it. Also, don’t up-end established traditions and then threaten to burn down my business if I don’t hop on board. Now, when I see or read about those actions, I simply get angry. You might imagine that some, less tolerant than myself (yeah, they are out there) might not be so philisophical as myself and might have a more visceral reaction. I do not condone any of that or justify it, but especially with radical Imams preaching fundamentalist Islamic verses, I am just speculating that this tends to infuriate the totally intolerant (if you want to believe Mateen was just a random un-radicalized Muslim, all it took for him was seeing two men kissing. Sure, that level of ignorant intolerance is his problem, but he made it the problem of over 100 other people and their families. I advise restraint among the gay community and if such outlandish behavior is simply “gays being gay”, then you provide validation to MANY of your detractors.

    Back in the day, my wife and I regularly watched the Ellen Degeneres show when she had the sitcom. It was funny and we liked it though it was sort of an open secret she was gay. Then she “came out” and her show became a gay “rights” vehicle. We punched out on that; I don’t want to see that in my face every week. That was mild compared to what we are presented with today. For instance, what do gay guys have to do with the Kentucky Derby? Does it HAVE to be a flaming gay guy critiquing hats? No, that is NBC’s intentional throat-jamming of the gay agenda and I find it repulsive. Much more advantageous to the gay agenda is my brother in law’s gay son, who restores cars and is indistinguishable to any other guy (and he has brought a boyfriend to family Christmas get togethers). I liked the guy before I knew he was gay and I still like him. Gayness is not central to his being and he does not seem insistent on forcing ME to pledge allegiance to gayness.

    No, it’s not bigotry or homophobia. It’s called taste and dignity.

  26. 78

    George Wells

    @Bill #77:

    Thanks for the continuing conversation. It is a whole lot more entertaining that Retire05’s dismissive insults.

    I really liked your comment about “taste and dignity.”
    After all, “taste and dignity” is what “REPUBLICAN” Donald Trump is all about… RIGHT?! LOL!
    As an old geezer, I REMEMBER when taste and dignity were respected values, but those times have been eclipsed by reality television’s obsession with scandal and loud-and-angry, potty-mouthed trash-talk, and people’s public behavior, WHEN IT FOLLOWS THAT SCRIPT, gets featured in the media BECAUSE IT’S WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS!
    99% of all gay people have never been to a gay parade (I haven’t) or even a “pride” celebration (I haven’t) and don’t wear “banana hammocks and boas” (I don’t) because doing so lacks taste and dignity. But as you CHOOSE to buy into the media-perpetrated myth that these actions are typical of gay people, they go ahead and get in a huff over the fiction that you have bought and paid for and be pleased that you got your money’s worth.

    I’ll happily address your other comments ASAP, but I’m going out to clean up yesterday’s storm damage.
    Thanks again.

  27. 79

    Bill

    @George Wells: I’m not “buying” anything. I am recounting here what I have seen broadcast and printed. Now, you can blame the media if they are causing damage, but what they are doing (or trying to do) is indoctrinate. You don’t have to accept anything I say as anything valid, but I want crimes and attacks against your community prevented just as against any other group; what I find most sickening of all is the left wing reaction to the problems they themselves cause.

    I am sincerely sorry for your storm damage. Hopefully it is not too severe.

  28. 80

    George Wells

    @Bill #77:

    “No, you affiliate yourself with those who blame EVERYTHING but the actual cause of the shootings, radical Islam.”

    Your use of the word “affiliate” is in error. I have explained before that my vote for a Democratic presidential candidate is predicated exclusively upon the Republican Party’s hostility toward gays. It does not represent support for other liberal agendas that are less important to me than gay rights. The citizens who vote Democratic are no more “AFFILIATED” with liberal-leaning political extremism than are citizens who vote Republican necessarily “AFFILIATED” with conservative-leaning political extremism. Simply because you voted for Bush doesn’t “AFFILIATE” you with people who wear NAZI uniforms or hooded white sheets any more than my vote for Obama “AFFILIATES” me with the Communist Party.
    Your desperate attempt to confuse this issue is becoming tiresome.

    Should we suspend Muslim immigration? No. We should suspend ALL immigration until each and every candidate for immigration can be properly vetted. If we do that, it will grind all immigration to a standstill, and I have no problem with that. Halting immigration isn’t unconstitutional, but selectively punishing certain groups on religious grounds IS.

    Regarding what behavior IS and what behavior is NOT beneficial to the gay community, your objection to “indiscrete” display is noted. I would suggest that the gay community spent a generation quietly maintaining its discrete silence in its collective closet to precisely no avail. We were constantly reminded that things would eventually get better if only we’d keep quiet for another number of years, but things never DID get better. Not until the “Stonewall” riots did gay people finally begin to flex their collective political muscle. That step was necessary BEFORE people like Paul and I began to “come out” to our neighbors, much less get married. We were not always appreciated for our candor, but this public acknowledgement was essential to the progress of the gay rights movement. Without it, nothing would have happened in our lifetimes. Some friction along the route to gaining equal rights has been more than worth the trouble.

  29. 81

    George Wells

    @Nanny G #76:
    I was being facetious about posting troops everywhere. Of course it would not be at all practical OR affordable to go to that extreme measure to protect ourselves from gun violence, and it would do nothing to protect us from OTHER forms of violence. It would be about as impossible a solution as YOUR suggestion to wall off the United States in the manner that Israel has sequestered Gaza. We have thousands of miles of coastline, millions of square miles of land, and hundreds of millions of cubic miles of airspace, all dimensions that dwarf the puny problem that Israel has with Gaza.

    I am all for taking the war against terrorism to its source, but it is already coming from everywhere, and hermetically sealing off the United States from the rest of the world would not stop the problem, even if doing that WAS even remotely possible.

    The population pressure of over 7 billion people is the root cause of extreme violence – religious intolerance and the fanaticism it breeds are only secondary causes. As is suggested by the “boom-and-bust” cycles observed in the populations of other naturally occurring species, the population of Mankind will rise and fall periodically as temporarily incurable epidemics and increasingly deadly wars ravage our numbers. To be blunt about it, $hit will happen on a VERY grand scale, and the little shooting at PULSE apparently perpetrated by a lone Jihadist will be but the most insignificant drop in the bucket of unnecessarily spilled blood.

    If you want to spend sleepless nights worrying about the future, don’t waste your time concerning yourself over the destructive consequences of a few small arms that made their way into the hands of people who are insane by the standards of Western Civilization. Worry instead about the Worldwide proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, and also that our very tiniest enemies – germs and viruses – may indeed be on the brink of winning THEIR war against humanity.

  30. 82

    Metro

    @George Wells:

    This is where the law of abrogation comes into play. For Christians, the new law (New Testament) abrogates the Old Law. That is why they are not required to keep 613 mosaic laws. The 10 Commandments however are carried forward as still central.
    For Muslims, the Medina verses abrogate the Mecca verses. Mecca verses were more “get along with the neighbors”, but after they rejected Mohammed, he went postal, went to Medina and slaughtered the Jews there. Everything is conquest and killing after that. In total, 61 percent of the Koran speaks ill of unbelievers or calls for violent conquest and subjugation of them. By volume, it is physically punitive and militaristic.
    Add to that the idea that its text is *verbatim* dictated, perfect, and co-eternal with God, and there is great difficulty in arguing for a less literal interpretation. The Bible is not considered in that manner – it is acknowledged to be inspired and composed by humans, the written product of a church, and to be interpreted.
    Then contrast the image of Mohammed as considered to be the “perfect man” to be imitated in all things, with Christ considered to be the “perfect man” to be imitated in all things.
    The outcomes of extactly imitating one over the other are quite different.

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