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@Greg:

My history is sufficiently sound. Lincoln had such presidential power and asserted it.

Yep, emancipation for slaves was so important to Lincoln he waited three years to free them, and only in the south, not the north. Seems to me if it was that important, he would have freed them upon taking office. But he didn’t, did he?

The rebellion failed and the United States remained an undivided nation.

In name only. We are more racially divided now than we have been since the 1960’s. And you can blame President Obama for that division. When is your beer summit with him?

@Tom:

Feel free to point out any factual inaccuracies in my post. See if you can stop looking like a jackass. At least try.

@Tom:

Tom, would you be better off living where you do now or anywhere in Africa? Which would you choose?

@Greg: That’s funny!.
Did these Black slave owners have their white slaves entertain them in blackface?

@retire05:

You have any “evidence” other than a web site with an obvious agenda for the claim that American aborigines were exported to the Caribbean? I’ve never read word one supporting that claim.

The Spanish certainly made a business of enslaving native peoples, but not the English.

BTW it wasn’t uncommon even into the 19th century for Islamic slavers to raid along the coasts of Ireland for slaves.

@Mockingird:

You have any “evidence” other than a web site with an obvious agenda for the claim that American aborigines were exported to the Caribbean? I’ve never read word one supporting that claim.

Google it. I’m tired of trying to be research assistant for people like you and it’s not my problem you lack historical knowledge. You want me to do your research, it’ll cost you. Plenty.

@Tom:

Question for me: Why am I wasting time on a white supremacy blog?

Stupidity?

@Greg: YOU are on DRUGS. Get with your dealer and tell him to get you the good stuff. Your’e an IDIOT. Stop trying to be smart, you are the furthest thing from smart. Actually I’m amazed you can even breathe. “were actually sympathetic African Americans who were formerly white slave owners. ” What a maroon.

@rich wheeler: 12

I think Tom is an outstanding proponent of the liberal principles that are at a premium here at FA. He more than holds his own in debate and I commend him for that.

And you’re dreaming, much as Tom does. When did any lib hold their own? It’s a combination of liberal education and no sense.

When it is pointed out that Blacks owned White slaves–give me a break.

I think it strange that you think that the white slaves that were owned by black slave owners were not important. I’ll bet their moms did.

@Mockingird: Try, First Peoples, First Contact: Native Peoples of North America by J.C.H. King. It is used as a text for collegiate anthropology courses on Native Americans. It makes clear reference to Native Americans being sold into slavery into the West Indies by European powers including the English. As an example, during the Pequot War of 1637, the English along with their Narragansett allies killed numerous Pequots in east Connecticut and sold the few survivors into West Indian slavery (p.46).

@Bill: One thing that can be said about slavery. Basically every black slave ever sold was sold by a black man into slavery. If guilt is meaningful, is a man that captures a person, takes them away from their family and sells them into slavery have more or less guilt than the person that buys that person and then owns him? I’ll leave that to each individual to hold their own beliefs. While the only slavery remaining in the US is sex slaves, slavery is still very much a thriving business in many parts of the world and probably always will be. There is no section of the US that is more or less guilty than others with the possible exception of the area around Rhode Island which was responsible for more than half of the slaves brought into this country.

@rich wheeler: 27.

I understand how some like yourself might feel this way.. I think Repub.leaders might do more to reach out to these minorities rather than pin hole them as welfarists, slackards and the like—–Until you’ve actually walked in their shoes–seen life from the inside—in a nutshell. Show some damn empathy.

Rich are you trying to convince someone that you know of what you speak? You’ve ‘walked in their shoes’ ? I don’t think so.

@retire05:34 ◦

The North abolished slavery only just before the Civil War

The North abolished slavery in December 1865, about 8 months after the War of Northern Aggression ended

And in addition to DeWolf in Rhode Island, the Brown family became one of the richest in the country with his slave trading. Rhode Island alone accounted for over 50% of all African slaves brought into the country. Brown University was founded on money donated by Mr Brown.

@retire05: 35

Tell me, Rich, which gay “pride” event did you have such a good time at? Did you participate in the exhibitions?

I think I read somewhere that Rich was in his assless chaps, though I haven’t seen the photos. I’m sure Rich has seen them. I heard he might have been waving the rainbow flag also. Tell us where the photos of the parade are Rich. give us a link.

@rich wheeler:

Sat 4th of July Parade in Huntington Beach

You were at that one? Very good.

@Greg:

whether the right wants to claim Lincoln as the republican who ended slavery

I think he should be regarded as what he was, a president that exceeded his powers in more ways than one. (similar to Obozo) illegally issuing Eman Proc. and illegally sending troops into the southern states. Oh,, and telling quite a few lies in the Gettysburg Address. Other than that……….

@drjohn:

Feel free to point out any factual inaccuracies in my post. See if you can stop looking like a jackass. At least try.

Obviously I’m not here to challenge your ridiculous cherry picked “facts”. I’m challenging your intent. I’m challenging your multiple ridiculous premises. Your intent is quite obvious. You’re providing “factual” ammunition and talking points for narcissistic aggrieved white conservatives who are upset that after a racist murdered nine black people, “the Left” is trying to make them feel bad. Just as you cultivate the white right wing victim complex (“leave our flag alone”) you offer a laundry list of excuses for why no white person should care one way or the other about the contemporary or historical grievances of African Americans. Where the lie really lies is in your inference that anyone is actually being blamed, that white conservatives are under siege. All that has been asked of you is empathy. But the call to empathy, to walking a mile in another man’s shoes, is foreign to you and the selfish people you serve, who are eager for the solace you offer to feel nothing but contempt. As already pointed out, you’re just working well-trodden ground. Real admitted white supremacists have been trotting this stuff out for years. You’re still on the JV squad if you think this is novel.

As for your premises, they are comical.

Hypothetically- let’s say slavery never existed. You’re a black person who presumably would be born anyway. Changing absolutely nothing, where in Africa would you prefer to live over living in America? Would you prefer Guinea, Cameroon or Nigeria to the US, changing nothing of today? Please, stand up and say so.

As much as I thought you couldn’t lower the bar, this one actually shocked me. You’re really going to work the Cliven Bundy “black people were better off as slaves” motif? Or should i say, “black people should be thanking we took their ancestors over here as slaves” spin you’ve put on it?

I enjoyed this one too:

Angry about slavery? Why aren’t you as angry with the descendants of the Africans who sold other Africans into slavery as you are with white Americans most of whom had NOTHING to do with slavery?

So African American anger over slavery has no legitimacy unless it’s partially/mostly focused on a hypothetical black man? This is your message to the descendents of slaves, most of whom have ancestors who were born in America and whose ancestry traces back hundreds of years in America? But most of all, WHY would it matter if a black person was sold by another black to a white person who then OWNED them?? Why do think this should make anyone’s opinion slavery change?

Here is an example of nonsense offered without a shred of support:

And a little later I’m going to tell you why liberals want these words stricken from the pages of history.

Here is an example of a non sequitur statement that is unprovable and also proves nothing that went before:

Fact: Slavery was long an African tradition when it was imported to North America. It was business as usual.

The whole thing is a mess. It's unflattering for you, it's unflattering for those who crave this sort of thing to avoid actually engaging with incredibly complicated and painful realities. .

Here’s an old source, should anyone be interested in the topic of Indian slavery. INDIAN SLAVERY IN COLONIAL TIMES WITHIN THE PRESENT LIMITS OF THE UNITED STATES, a doctoral thesis by Almon Wheel Lauber, Ph.M., 1913.

Caveats are in order. From the linked document:

“The fact that hitherto no special attention has been given
to the subject of Indian slavery has made the gathering of
material difficult. Many of the important sources treating
of the subject have never been published and are widely
scattered. Much of even this material is vague in nature
and consequently more or less unsatisfactory.

In other words, what little information there was on the subject was uncertain. The author elaborates:

“Slavery among the tribes of the Great Plains and the
Atlantic Slope was different in nature from that in the
northwest. Frequent mention of such slavery is
found, but it has been shown that the term “slave ”
was often used by the early Spanish and French writers in
an erroneous sense as synonymous with “prisoner.”

The institution of adoption so largely used by the American
Indians, and incident to inter-tribal warfare and the consequent depletion of the tribal numbers, has also been confused by the writers with the institution of slavery.”

So, the few primary sources often aren’t even clear about their definition of slavery. The author apparently just did the best he could with what there was to work with. It seems unlikely that the definitions his sources were using have become any more certain with the passage of another one hundred and two years.

It’s interesting that Enslavement of American Indians by Whites cites Lauber as a source. It makes me wonder how much credibility is lent by a list of references at the end of an article. In the absence of sufficient well-documented facts, what we really have is opinion.

@Greg:

y history is sufficiently sound. Lincoln had such presidential power

which article of the constitution gave the president the power to seize property without compensation? you won’t have any problem answering that since your education is ‘sufficient’.

@rich wheeler:

Did these Black slave owners have their white slaves entertain them in blackface?

And you know racism when you see it, right? But, but, it was just a joke………..

@Tom:

who are upset that after a racist murdered nine black people, “the Left” is trying to make them feel bad.

I can hardly wait til the facts of his politics come out. I’ll bet he is a leftie………

@Tom: 67

But the call to empathy, to walking a mile in another man’s shoes, is foreign to you

Oooooohh Tommy, you stole that from Richie just above. He was just walking in some slaves shoes and now you are walking in some slaves shoes. Hope you got some good movies of this walk and tell us where we can find us some slave shoes to walk around in so we can all ‘share’ that empathy. Geeezzz.

@Tom: 67

“black people should be thanking us we took their ancestors over here were slaves”

uh oh, that lib education is showing up again. You missed all the history lessons above. It was ‘black’ people that sold the ‘black’ people into slavery. Black people should acknowledge that it was their ancestors that sold them into slavery.

@Redteam:

In the manifesto, Mr. Roof writes: “The event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case. I kept hearing and seeing his name, and eventually I decided to look him up. I read the Wikipedia article and right away I was unable to understand what the big deal was. It was obvious that Zimmerman was in the right. But more importantly this prompted me to type in the words ‘black on White crime’ into Google, and I have never been the same since that day.”

Yeah, I’m having a hard time placing his politics from what we know, aside from noticing they’re apparently very much like yours.

@Redteam, #69:

Which article of the constitution gave the president the power to seize property without compensation? you won’t have any problem answering that since your education is ‘sufficient’.

I think none was required, since there was no Constitutional basis for regarding one human being as the personal property of another to begin with.

@Greg: 68 History is just that His Story. Wouldn’t you slant your narrative a little if you had to write your history of how you murdered hundreds of indians and captured and sold them into slavery? You think those folks are proud of it and that they went out of their way to ensure that the details and facts and credits were all properly given. Or do you think they might forget to mention or write down a few details?

@Redteam:

You mention the word “education” quite often in your posts. It’s kind of ironic.

@Tom:

from noticing they’re apparently very much like yours.

Oh, and you have information that I have killed some folks?

@Tom: Just for the record, in the Trayvon Martin case, it was a black man that attempted to kill a white man but accidentally killed himself in the process. right?

@Tom:

You mention the word “education” quite often in your posts. It’s kind of ironic.

Something you’re not familiar with?

@Greg: I’ll just say ‘ignorance is no excuse’. I won’t even blame that on liberal education.

For the record, I didn’t mention slaves, I mentioned property.

@Redteam, #76:

Yep. As Sir Winston Churchill observed, “History is written by the victors.” Lord only knows what the history books would say if Germany had won the Second World War.

@Redteam:

Don’t be ridiculous. I don’t think you’re a racist loser who is also a homicidal maniac. Just a racist loser.

@Greg: The internet was just getting started in 1913, so access was limited.

@Tom: Is your kindergarten class out for the summer? Mommy shouldn’t let her little boy play with the computer, especially while on Pot.

@Redteam: This is an example of your pure stupidity RT. I don’t know why you even attempt to debate Tom.
He consistently shows you to be a fool. I once had minimal respect for you RT but you continue to show that you are simply a tired old racist..

@rich wheeler: You and Tom hanging out in your assless Chaps there Richie? Do you give tom credit for an IQ level above stupid?

I was going to say the Libs have gone off the Deep end again, but they actually never got out.

@rich wheeler: I notice you’re still pointing out ‘racists’, the no. one item for practicing racists. You sure keep racism on your mind don’t you. Must be your Chaps.

@Redteam: Let’s not forget how much you hate the gays RT. Hell you seem to hate anyone that isn’t white and straight–you are strictly backwoods. The good news is your kind are dying off.

@rich wheeler:

Let’s not forget how much you hate the gays RT.

Making it up as you go along, Richie? Is it ok with little Tommy’s mom for him to hang with you in your Chaps? Did he bring over his rainbow flag?

@rich wheeler:

The good news is your kind are dying off.

I guess you think your Chaps will keep you from dying off?

Richie, how come you won’t tell us where you put those slaves shoes that you went walking in? We asked so we can all share your experience. Is it a secret?

@Tom:

Obviously I’m not here to challenge your ridiculous cherry picked “facts”.

Because you can’t. They’re unassailable and they were chosen from very considered sources.

Just as you cultivate the white right wing victim complex (“leave our flag alone”)

No, you liar. I said that I thought the flag should have come down long ago but was it sent up by a liberal democrat.

you offer a laundry list of excuses for why no white person should care one way or the other about the contemporary or historical grievances of African Americans.

Another absolute lie. A Tomism. I offered a lesson in history. I am highly principled and one thing that irritates the crap out of me is hypocrisy- like yours- but liberals are nothing without hypocrisy.

I notice you dodged the hypothetical. You’re too afraid of the truth to answer it.

So African American anger over slavery has no legitimacy unless it’s partially/mostly focused on a hypothetical black man?

I never said that. YOU DID, because you’re a moron. I believe that anger really ought to be properly directed. I’ve never owned slaves. I don’t know why anyone who has never owned slaves (especially anyone whose ancestors never owned slaves) deserves to the target of invective about slavery. Maybe you have and that could be the reason for your white liberal guilt. If anger is to be expressed, that anger need also to be directed toward ALL who participated- but holding the sins of the father against the son? Really? Another Tomism.

But most of all, WHY would it matter if a black person was sold by another black to a white person who then OWNED them?? Why do think this should make anyone’s opinion slavery change?

There are certainly relatives of the Africans who sold other blacks into slavery here. Have you EVER seen anyone suggest that they be included in the responsibility for slavery? When was the last time any of us saw Don Lemon or some other idiot liberal want to lay blame on Africans for making slavery an every day part of life? When do you liberals lament slavery still existing in Africa? Slavery was imported to the Americas from Africa. It was not created here. Sure it was wrong, but it was ended here. It still exists in Africa and in Islamic countries.

Yes, Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. He also found it abominable. Yet he helped write some of the most immortal words in history. Words that would make this country as great as it is. Words that could allow everyone to be free and avail themselves of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The pursuit, Tommy. Not the guarantee.

I know I scared you away from having to commit yourself. I do that to liberals whose heads are so addled with absurd notions of political correctness that facts taken from well regarded black historians and from African countries appear to be right wing racist propaganda in their compromised brains.

Liberalism is a disease.

@Tom:

Tom

Is slavery an African tradition? Yes or no?

@Tom:

You see, Tom, when looney liberals besmirch Thomas Jefferson as though he alone was responsible for slavery it’s pathetic. Right now he’s the lightning rod for liberal indignation. I would wager a great deal of money that few if any liberals believe anything other than the Kunta Kinte version of history- that white men hunted down the Levar Burtons, kidnapped him and sold him into slavery in the colonies. I’d wager that none of them know that slavery was endemic in Africa and that black Africans sold other black Africans into slavery by the millions. It’s was wrong- by today’s mores. It was indeed business as usual back then- for Africa, for South America, for Islamic countries and then by extension, the colonies. It probably took guts to even voice opposition as it did to suggest women had the right to vote. Voices like Jefferson’s eventually became the catalyst for change. That deserves to be respected.

@rich wheeler: Jim Webb..will check it out, thanks.

I agree with you. I’m a bit odd here, because I can’t say I’m really for the Repubs that much. My passion for the past few years has been more about fallacious reasoning and the Dems. The Reps have plenty of their own, and I won’t defend them for that.

I’m an actual Moderate…and I think I represent the majority of the electorate out there. Regardless, we in America have this crappy see-saw built from the Dems and Reps (how horrible is that!?). I’m just for a balance: this country is based on millions of different views, and any person, organization, party, or cultural meme that infringes on that freedom is suspect, and I’ll oppose it vehemently.

Have a great 4th too, sir.

(Not a Marine, but I was a Submariner…)

Oh my. Well, I think the debate boils down to a few points, brought out by most posters with the exception of Greg and Tom (muddling the issue with distractions).

On the right:
Slavery isn’t a “white” institution and using it to further a class/race division is wrong.

On the left (from Rich, almost exclusively):
American Blacks primarily descend from slaves, and that cultural foundation isn’t something you just wish away. It’s a real problem, and current blacks suffer from the decades of poverty and real oppression. Show some empathy.

Settles (sort of…not really…but..)

I agree with Bill Whittle in the idea that Booker T. Washington’s idea were better than WEB DuBois, and had the African community followed Washington, the current situation would be way, way different.

@DrJohn:
Nice rebuttals, DrJohn.
It really is too bad that liberals can’t get as worked up over PRESENT day slavery.
I guess since it is non-whites doing the enslaving it won’t fit into their phony narrative.
Raise your hands if you think those 14 female ”suicide” bombers that Boko Haram used earlier this week were volunteers.
Of course they were not.
Human bombs.
That is the ultimate in enslavement.

What a pathetic bunch of conservative whining.

Please link me to any story by CNN or MSNBC in which someone said the founding fathers invented slavery? What a babyish rant.