DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education. DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed. Except for liberals being foolish.

31 Responses to “It doesn’t mean what you think”

  1. 1

    John

    Dr J hates Obama something fierce!!
    But he is not racist he will stand up for the Cos even whith the new allegations of giving alcohol to underage white girls and more molestation charges

  2. 2

    Scott+in+Oklahoma

    @John:
    Go back and follow the links the good doctor provided, they are highlighted in red in case you never figured that out. Then you can come back and comment, after you have learned what to comment about.

  3. 3

    Tom

    @scott,

    Go back and follow the links the good doctor provided, they are highlighted in red in case you never figured that out. Then you can come back and comment, after you have learned what to comment about.

    Since you’re dispensing educational advice, Scott – and since you apparently have so much faith in the sage, unbiased wisdom of Dr John – perhaps you can point me to where Dr John has written about Tamir Rice or John Crawford or Eric Garner? Are they “thugs”, like all the other black men and boys, that Dr John has chosen to write about and term thusly? Is it their faults that they’re dead, as Dr John had implied about other victims of violence that he’s chosen to write about?

  4. 4

    Nanny

    Tamir Rice, John Crawford, Eric Garner….what do they all have in common?
    All three were not socialized well enough to know not to 1.Brandish a firearm in public or, 1.Ignore orders from police when breaking a law.

    Now, I will grant you that two males are dead for BRANDISHING 1. a toy gun with the orange tip removed, 2 a BB Gun which is an actual gun but with tiny ammo.

    Back during WWII our military men all studied all of the outlines of all enemy and friendly ships and air power, just so such mistakes would not be made.
    Nowadays (gosh I hope you know this) people with too high an IQ are routinely refused employment as police.
    The IQ of most police is around 102.
    We happen to have tens of thousands of laws on the books for them to learn and enforce.
    Asking them to learn all the outlines of all fake guns so as to be able to hold up when they are being threatened by one is simply asking too much.

    Best not to BRANDISH at police.
    Most people who do brandish are asking for ”suicide-by-cop.”

    As to the guy who had the mile-long rap sheet and was selling tobacco illegally in NY, he fought four cops.
    He could have given up and surrendered.
    He didn’t.
    He fought.
    That first cop who tried to arrest him looked like a Chihuahua trying to take on a Great Dane.

  5. 5

    Tom

    @Nanny:

    All three were not socialized well enough to know not to 1.Brandish a firearm in public or, 1.Ignore orders from police when breaking a law.

    Nan thinks a 12 year old boy who was playing by himself with a toy gun was “brandishing a firearm in public” because he’s “not socialized” (i.e.,he’s not a nice white boy). I’d like to hear from any man on this forum who never played with a toy gun outside when he was child. Because that man, if he exists, was not socialized and deserved to be shot dead within two seconds of the police driving up.

  6. 6

    Tom

    @Nanny:

    Best not to BRANDISH at police.
    Most people who do brandish are asking for ”suicide-by-cop.”

    Was Tamir depressed do you think? Related question: does inveterate racism rot one’s brain?

    As to the guy who had the mile-long rap sheet and was selling tobacco illegally in NY, he fought four cops.
    He could have given up and surrendered.
    He didn’t.
    He fought.
    That first cop who tried to arrest him looked like a Chihuahua trying to take on a Great Dane

    You must be blind. He did not fight. He had both hands up, even as he was saying “don’t touch me” and the cop pulled him down from behind in a choke hold. The only thing he was fighting for after that was a breath. Believe it or not, the police cannot just kill an unarmed, non-threatening suspect for resisting arrest. Not even when he’s black.

  7. 7

    Nanny

    @Tom: You can get kicked out of school for even playing with a PRETEND gun in front of others, Tom.
    Did that boy never go to school?
    Or did learning and obeying the rules just mean he was ”acting white?”
    Who took the orange tip off the play gun?

    When I was in college I was in the same class with a cop who gunned down a student who was playing some game on campus, chasing around with a toy gun (before orange tips).
    He was devastated by what happened.
    I think the orange tips came in after this incident.

  8. 8

    Tom

    @Nanny:

    You can get kicked out of school for even playing with a PRETEND gun in front of others, Tom.
    Did that boy never go to school?
    Or did learning and obeying the rules just mean he was ”acting white?”
    Who took the orange tip off the play gun?

    So, typical of your ilk, you’re going to make this a trial of victim’s character (and his parents). HE WAS 12 NAN! Why don’t you bring the same judgmental skepticism to bear on the shooter of the unarmed 12 year old boy, who “had issues with handling guns during his brief tenure with a suburban police department”

    A Nov. 29, 2012 letter contained in Tim Loehmann’s personnel file from the Independence Police Department says that during firearms qualification training he was “distracted” and “weepy.”

    “He could not follow simple directions, could not communicate clear thoughts nor recollections, and his handgun performance was dismal,” according to the letter written by Deputy Chief Jim Polak of the Independence police.

    The letter recommended that the department part ways with Loehmann, who went on to become a police officer with the Cleveland Division of Police.

    “I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct the deficiencies,” Polak said.

    Cleveland police said on Wednesday that they never reviewed the Independence file and changed their policies to include checking publicly available records for potential hires.

    It really sucks that that unsocialized 12 year old caused his own suicide by cop death at the hands of cop who was judged by a suburban department dangerous and unqualified.

  9. 9

    Scott+in+Oklahoma

    @Nanny:
    Those orange tips weren’t a good idea from the start. Seems like that’s the first thing to go when a kid gets a new Airsoft or toy gun. I am probably the only one participating in this tread at the moment who has come close, and I mean pressure on the trigger close to killing someone with an Airsoft gun I their hands, I can tell you this without hesitation, it is impossible to tell real from toy from 20 feet, especially in the dark. Oh and when I was a gang guy, we routinely took guns off of gang bangers, real guns, with orange painted ends on the barrels… now why would they do that?

  10. 10

    Nanny

    @Scott+in+Oklahoma: Yup.
    The heat of the moment is no time to be trying to discern whether it’s a real gun or not.
    And, I have seen gang bangers with real guns that had painted tips.
    I am so glad to be out of Long Beach, CA and in Utah!

  11. 11

    Tom

    @Scott+in+Oklahoma:

    I am probably the only one participating in this tread at the moment who has come close, and I mean pressure on the trigger close to killing someone with an Airsoft gun I their hands, I can tell you this without hesitation, it is impossible to tell real from toy from 20 feet, especially in the dark.

    That’s a terrible situation for you or any officer to be in. It’s a shame that efforts to more clearly and permanently identify airsoft guns as such have been repeatedly opposed and scuttled by the NRA. I’m sure they have great reasons for putting police officers and children at risk though.

  12. 12

    Scott+in+Oklahoma

    @Tom:
    I’m not against Airsoft guns at all, great for marksmanship training, and the NRA is all about training and firearm safety… but you wouldn’t know that, being all anti-gun and paying attention to those talking points.
    I knew an LAPD (or LASO, it was a long time ago) guy who shot a kid in a cemetery in the middle of the night, the kid was playing with a lazer tag gun that, in the light, looked nothing like a real gun.

    I see you don’t have an answer for the criminal gang members who paint the tips of their barrels orange… hmm, maybe tell them not to do that anymore? Outlaw orange paint? Come on now, I know you have what you might consider a witty answer somewhere in that dark hole in your head.

  13. 13

    Tom

    I see you don’t have an answer for the criminal gang members who paint the tips of their barrels orange… hmm, maybe tell them not to do that anymore? Outlaw orange paint? Come on now, I know you have what you might consider a witty answer somewhere in that dark hole in your head.

    My witty answer is I think it’s terrible and they should be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And in the context of this discussion, it’s a strawman. If the Airsoft gun Tamir Rice was holding had been bright orange, for example, do you think he would have been shot? Would that impact it’s utility in marksmanship training?

  14. 14

    Angel+Artiste

    There seems to be fault on both sides of the argument. I remember a line from an old movie that exposed a foreign spy because he didn’t realize that “in this country, we don’t fear the police”. Unfortunately, that is no longer true. Whether you are black or white, you better obey a cop’s order immediately, or you will be face-planted on the pavement. If you refuse to let them into your house without a warrant, cops will beat you, destroy your house, and let you try to sue them for violating the Constitution later. The militarization and SWATization of our hometown police has been orchastrated by the White House and eagerly accepted by police across the country. On the other hand, killing a cop used to be an unforgivable felony, punishable by death. Today, it means instant celebrity. Both sides need to stand down.

    Obama and Holder are the true villians in this shadow play, and have set back race relations 100 years.

  15. 15

    drjohn

    @Tom:

    Since you’re dispensing educational advice, Scott – and since you apparently have so much faith in the sage, unbiased wisdom of Dr John – perhaps you can point me to where Dr John has written about Tamir Rice or John Crawford or Eric Garner? Are they “thugs”, like all the other black men and boys, that Dr John has chosen to write about and term thusly? Is it their faults that they’re dead, as Dr John had implied about other victims of violence that he’s chosen to write about?

    John Crawford :

    Crawford was holding a Crosman MK-177 air pump rifle as he walked through the store, WHIO, Dayton, reported. The weapon, which can shoot both pellets and BBs, had been removed from its original packaging. April and Ronald Ritchie told WHIO they were in the hardware section of the Wal-Mart when they saw Crawford walking with the air pump gun in his hand. They became alarmed and called 911 to report him.

    Once on the scene, Beavercreek police Officer Sean Williams and Sgt. David Darkow located Crawford and instructed him to put down the replica rifle. When he didn’t comply, he was shot by the officers.

    You explain to me why he would remove the packaging while in the store prior to leaving and then refuse to put the thing down when instructed to do so.

    Tamir Rice:

    I think it’s a terrible thing but not even his parents think it involves race.

    An attorney for the boy’s family, Timothy Kucharski, said Tamir went to the park with friends on Saturday afternoon, but he did not know the details of what led to his shooting.

    ‘This is not a black and white issue,’ he said. ‘This is a right and wrong issue. This is not a racial issue. This is about people doing their jobs the right way.’

    I don’t have an opinion about Eric Garner as yet. I find that one to be highly complicated. I know that if he obeyed the cops he would be alive.

  16. 16

    Tom

    @drjohn:

    You explain to me why he would remove the packaging while in the store prior to leaving

    You don’t know who removed the product from the package. And if it’s dangerous, why is it out on a shelf anyway? When you, Dr John, go shopping, do you normally think to yourself that by picking up a product off a shelf and walking around the store you might be killed by the police?

    then refuse to put the thing down when instructed to do so.

    We must have watched different videos. The one I saw shows a man on the phone with the air rifle pointed down in one frame and the next he’s falling over. At no point before he is shot does he look up from his phone over in the direction of the police.

    I don’t have an opinion about Eric Garner as yet.

    There’s no reason to hem and haw, Dr John. No one will be shocked when you arrive at your conclusion.

    I find that one to be highly complicated. I know that if he obeyed the cops he would be alive.

    That’s because you are a creature of bias. It’s really not very complicated, not even to many conservatives. If you believe that the police are justified in killing a suspect for not complying immediately and exactly as ordered, then you might think the officer was in the right to use a banned choke hold to kill Garner. If you believe police should exercise force with discretion, for example in the case of a man accused of selling individual cigarettes, who, while not docilely compliant, had his hands up the entire time and never attempted to flee, you might think it’s outrageously excessive and criminal to kill the man. I think most of us have figured out where we stand on those issues by now. Apparently there are no set of objective circumstances in which your bias won’t carry the day.

  17. 17

    Aqua

    @Tom:

    If the Airsoft gun Tamir Rice was holding had been bright orange, for example, do you think he would have been shot? Would that impact it’s utility in marksmanship training?

    I’m not sure if you’ve seen the video, but it looks like that poor kid could have been holding a toy unicorn and that cop would have shot him. Maybe Scott can weigh in on this, here’s the video (it comes with a warning):
    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/nov/26/cleveland-video-tamir-rice-shooting-police
    I have a couple of friends that are officers. They said they would never have pulled their cruiser that close to a suspect with a gun. And to jump out of the car and fire? It’s like he already had his gun out before the car stopped.
    As for Eric Garner…what idiot made it a crime to sell single cigarettes a crime worthy of arrest? If it’s such a big issue, why wasn’t he given a ticket and told to move along. Do you really need to go to jail for that? Is it as bad as being caught with a 32oz big gulp? While I believe the officers share some of the blame for the death of Mr. Garner, the Nanny State shares even more.

  18. 18

    Scott+in+Oklahoma

    @Aqua:
    The audio is missing from the video, and some important things are said on the police radio, one of which is after the kid was on the ground the senior cop said to dispatch (in part and paraphrased) that the kid looked to be in his 20’s. Big difference in the thought process of the cops if they think they are dealing with a 20 year old.
    I probably wouldn’t have wanted to drive up that close either, but I can recall at least one situation I was involved in with a guy carrying a rifle where I had no choice but to get that close. Not much fun for a couple of minutes. At that close distance, the officer doing the shooting was very close, we don’t know what he actually saw, so I can’t judge what his perception was; he obviously saw something we didn’t and felt that his life was in danger.

    And the Garner case… Garner had some responsibility in his demise as well, had he just cooperated none of this would have been an issue. And it wasn’t his first rodeo, Garner has been arrested over 30 times, so he knew the score. Yeah, a minor crime; should it be ignored? Or just ignored until you become a victim? I am not going to defend the cops or the arrest, I am not privy to all of the information, evidence and testimony that the Grand Jury was. The Grand Jury made the hard decision, knowing there would be backlash, that the police in this case didn’t do anything criminal. The easier decision would be to send the cops to trial, where they would most likely be acquitted but the decision would be someone else’s problem. The Grand Jury did the hard thing, which probably indicates they did the right thing.

  19. 19

    DrJohn

    author

    @Tom:

    You don’t know who removed the product from the package. And if it’s dangerous, why is it out on a shelf anyway? When you, Dr John, go shopping, do you normally think to yourself that by picking up a product off a shelf and walking around the store you might be killed by the police?

    If it’s a gun I sure would think twice. So please tell me why he would pick up a gun without packaging and walk around with it. You are nothing if consistent, as are virtually all liberals, in the doctrine of personal irresponsibility. It’s always someone else’s fault when you do something stupid. Louis Head is a recent example.

    James Holmes and Adam Lanza had rifles too. On the one hand you left wingers whine about guns and on the other hand you whine when cops are extra sensitive about people brandishing them.

    I am wondering why they didn’t taze Garner but given his severely impaired health that might also have killed him.

    None of these cases is racial in origin and that was the gist of your original derision. You’ll note that there is a black female office present near Garner and she does not seem at all put off by what is transpiring.

  20. 20

    Aqua

    @Scott+in+Oklahoma:

    At that close distance, the officer doing the shooting was very close, we don’t know what he actually saw, so I can’t judge what his perception was; he obviously saw something we didn’t and felt that his life was in danger.

    I realize it’s pretty easy for me to sit at my desk and second guess police actions on my computer. I don’t envy you guys at all. I don’t know what was going through the officer’s mind at the time, but I guarantee you right now he’s thinking he killed a 12 year old kid with an air soft pistol and wondering what he could have done differently. And I think it’s important that everyone else think the same thing. They say the officer shouted show me your hands three times from the car, and shot between 1.5 and 2 seconds upon exiting the car. That just seems strange. I don’t know a lot about police tactics, but there are several experts weighing in, including this guys:

    “The tactics were very poor,” said David Thomas, senior research fellow for the Police Foundation. “If the driver would have stopped a distance away so that the primary officer wasn’t right there to get involved in shooting, it may have played out differently.”

    And this guy:

    Hubert Williams, 30-year police veteran and former president of the Police Foundation, said Garmback should not have pulled the police car so close to where Tamir was standing if they believed he was armed — as they were told by a 9-1-1 dispatcher.

    As for Garner:
    And the Garner case… Garner had some responsibility in his demise as well, had he just cooperated none of this would have been an issue.
    Agreed, he shares some responsibility.

    Yeah, a minor crime; should it be ignored? Or just ignored until you become a victim?

    A victim of someone selling single cigarettes? I’m not following you on that one. Is it a crime to sell single cigarettes? As far as I know, it is only a crime if they were untaxed. Were they untaxed? The officers seemed to think so, but does it rise to the level of arrest based on an officers belief that they were untaxed? Can’t the officers just ask someone to move along and then turn it over to the ATF if they think he was indeed dealing with untaxed tobacco? That’s what our tax money to the ATF is for, yeah?

  21. 21

    Skookum

    I came by an interesting idea the other day, while watching two kids playing with a toy gun that looked nothing like any real weapon. They didn’t know the difference and they were having a great time. It was painted white and the barrel was the diameter of a 2.5 rocket launcher. Normally, sloppy weapon handling makes me extremely nervous, but I was completely relaxed. My sons played with realistic toy weapons and I played with them, but I graduated to an 8 x 57 at an early age and the playing was over. Real rifles aren’t practical for 99% of kids, they are in cities and they have no opportunities to hunt and be serious weapon owners. My boys had fun with their toy weapons, but those days are over, there needs to be practical and serious changes. I have compassion for the kids who don’t know better and I have compassion for the cop who just wants to make it home that night and doesn’t want to kill anyone, especially a gung-ho kid with a realistic toy weapon.

  22. 22

    Tom

    @DrJohn:

    On the one hand you left wingers whine about guns and on the other hand you whine when cops are extra sensitive about people brandishing them.

    It’s entirely rational for the police to fear for their lives in America as I wrote here. What isn’t rational are people who refuse to link gun violence and the rational fear of guns (by both police and citizens) with guns themselves, as if they have no connection.

    None of these cases is racial in origin and that was the gist of your original derision.

    So you believe a youth playing with a toy gun on the New Canaan green is just as likely to be shot dead? Have some common sense. It doesn’t have to be “racist” and intentional for race to play a part. We all have subconscious bias. If in the NBA, white refs call more fouls on blacks, and vice versa, what makes y0u so certain race is never a factor in any of these incidents? When the cop came out shooting because he thought Tamir was a 20 year old man, what does that say about who he thought he was dealing with?

  23. 23

    Tom

    @Aqua:

    As for Eric Garner…what idiot made it a crime to sell single cigarettes a crime worthy of arrest? If it’s such a big issue, why wasn’t he given a ticket and told to move along. Do you really need to go to jail for that? Is it as bad as being caught with a 32oz big gulp? While I believe the officers share some of the blame for the death of Mr. Garner, the Nanny State shares even more.

    I have my issues with the cigarette tax. On the one hand, there is data to support that it lowers usage. On the other, it’s regressive and impacts a poor smoker disproportionally to a well-off one. In the big picture, mass incarceration is a national emergency, so we need to look at what laws are pulling people into the criminal justice system unnecessarily. So certainly I agree it’s ridiculous that multiple police would need to arrest this guy in such a manner. But let’s be fair. While the cigarette tax is going to identified with liberal big government doctrine, it’s nothing compared to the war on drugs in terms of the havoc it’s caused society. The war on drugs has certainly been a bi-partisan affair, but Ronald Reagan is the President who took it to a whole new level and law and order Republicans, along with panicky “Just say no” social conservatives, have been the driving forces ever since. I am glad to see that some conservatives starting to see the lunacy.

  24. 24

    Tom

    @Aqua:

    Agreed, he shares some responsibility.

    Sorry to butt in, but let me just make a point on this sort of rationalization. When you do this, you are flattening this to a simple decision tree and removing the context, the proportionality and the agency of those involved. Yes, people make bad decisions, but if we live in a society where there is no expectation of a rational and proportional response to our actions by the government, we live in terror. If you choose to speed five miles over the speed limit, do you accept complete responsibility for anything and everything that happens to you after you’ve been pulled over, or do expect a proportional response in accordance with the nature of the infraction?

  25. 25

    Aqua

    @Tom:

    Yes, people make bad decisions, but if we live in a society where there is no expectation of a rational and proportional response to our actions by the government, we live in terror.

    I completely agree with this. However, you need to know which battles to fight. If I do 5 MPH over the speed limit and a cop asks me to step out of the vehicle and I start giving him or her crap, things could go south in a hurry.
    You’ve seen it written here before:

    “When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny…”

    (this is also to address your post 23)
    If your job is government, then government needs more control to ensure stable employment. It’s not supposed to be that way. We have defacto monarchs all throughout government. In Georgia this year, we had Jimmy Carter’s grandson run for governor and Sam Nunn’s daughter run for senate. Just about every state has issue.
    The other way they maintain control is to keep us fighting. If you have 40% of the country for you and 40% against you…all the time, you only need to convince 20% of the people. You can do anything you want. To think democrats and republicans give a crap about any of us is ridiculous. What are we going to do? Vote the other party? They don’t need us.
    I don’t want to be ruled by either side. As long a democrat constituents continue to embrace laws because they are good for you, we lose liberty. As long as republican constituents continue to embrace laws because of moral high ground, we lose liberty.
    By the way, the rest of that Jefferson quote is:

    …The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”

  26. 26

    Tom

    @Aqua:

    Great comment. I can’t sigh off in total, but like a Venn diagram, I think we probably overlap in many important ways. As you’ve pointed out, the powers that be would rather have us focus on areas of disagreement, which are frequently sensational and ultimately trivial.

  27. 27

    Rich Wheeler

    Tom Aqua and Word are my kind of Conservatives/Libertarians.
    Aqua I got Georgia Tech to pull the overdue upset 27-24. Baylor sneaks in at #4. Ducks over Tide in final.

  28. 28

    Scott+in+Oklahoma

    @Aqua #20:
    My point about minor crime wasn’t pointed necessarily at single cigarette sales, more towards minor crimes in general. We probably agree that New York State created a whole new set of problems by making tax conditions such that the black market for cigarettes even exists. I don’t have a dog in that hunt, but I’m guessing $10-12 per pack will motivate people to use other options. And I am certain the cops involved that day would have much rather been doing something else, but they were acting as ordered. Some supervisor told them to go out there that day and arrest people illegally selling cigarettes.

  29. 30

    Aqua

    @Rich Wheeler:
    Gonna be tough for the Noles to pull this one out. But they’ve had a refuse to lose attitude all year. Hope they can keep it up. I would love to see them play Alabama for the championship.

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