(Re)Discovering Christopher Columbus

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Should we celebrate “Christopher Columbus Day” or “Indigenous People’s Day”? Which do you prefer and why?

Part of me, as a child of the 70s indoctrinated to celebrate the Pilgrims and Columbus, clings to Columbus Day. My weak rationale for this is along the lines of this:

In a 1988 presidential proclamation, Reagan commemorates Columbus for his spirit: “He was a dreamer, a man of vision and courage, a man filled with hope for the future and with the determination to cast off for the unknown and sail into uncharted seas for the joy of finding whatever was there. Put it all together and you might say that Columbus was the inventor of the American dream.”

Far from a day to remember our divisions or to dwell on past wrongs, Columbus Day is a day to celebrate an American dream that values diversity, yes, but also rewards daring risk-takers. Or as Reagan put it, “not only an intrepid searcher but the dreams and opportunities that brought so many here after him.”

The other view, as articulated at HuffPo, is tinged with a multiculturalist liberal perspective; but not exactly inaccurate. In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue … and slaughtered the indigenous peoples he found. Is that all there is to know?

Opportunistic monster or heroic explorer? Why must it be either one or the other and not both?

My opinion on the matter has evolved somewhat since the last time I blogged over this “holiday”.

I’m open to FA readers to sway me to lean in either direction. Should we continue to honor Christopher Columbus Day? I’m partial to tradition; but it’s only been an American tradition since 1934 due to Italian community leaders and the Knights of Columbus. Not all traditions and ideas are a good thing, worth clinging to.

Officially, it’s still a government holiday; but one in which current clime and culture in American life do not seem to really follow and honor. Are there still parades in cities? What is being taught in our classrooms?

Whichever you prefer, happy federal holiday!

Presidential proclamation this year:

BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

A PROCLAMATION

When Christopher Columbus — a son of Genoa, Italy — set sail across the Atlantic, no one could imagine the profound and lasting impact he would have on the world. In search of a westward route to Asia, he instead spotted the Bahamas. As dawn broke on October 12, 1492, Columbus’s crew set foot on a Caribbean island and changed the course of history. For much of Europe, this marked the discovery of the New World, and it set in motion the more than five centuries that have followed.

In a new world, explorers found opportunity. They endured unforgiving winters and early hardship. They pushed west across a continent, charting rivers and mountains, and expanded our understanding of the world as they embraced the principle of self-reliance.

In a new world, a history was written. It tells the story of an idea — that all women and men are created equal — and a people’s struggle to fulfill it. And it is a history shared by Native Americans, one marred with long and shameful chapters of violence, disease, and deprivation.

In a new world, a Nation was born. A resolute people fought for democracy, liberty, and freedom from tyranny. They secured fundamental rights to expression, petition, and free exercise of religion and built a beacon of hope to people everywhere who cherish these ideals.

Columbus’s historic voyage ushered in a new age, and since, the world has never been the same. His journey opened the door for generations of Italian immigrants who followed his path across an ocean in pursuit of the promise of America. Like Columbus, these immigrants and their descendants have shaped the place where they landed. Italian Americans have enriched our culture and strengthened our country. They have served with honor and distinction in our Armed Forces, and today, they embrace their rich heritage as leaders in our communities and pioneers of industry.

On Columbus Day, we reflect on the moment the world changed. And as we recognize the influence of Christopher Columbus, we also pay tribute to the legacy of Native Americans and our Government’s commitment to strengthening their tribal sovereignty. We celebrate the long history of the American continents and the contributions of a diverse people, including those who have always called this land their home and those who crossed an ocean and risked their lives to do so. With the same sense of exploration, we boldly pursue new frontiers of space, medicine, and technology and dare to change our world once more.

In commemoration of Christopher Columbus’s historic voyage 522 years ago, the Congress, by joint resolution of April 30, 1934, and modified in 1968 (36 U.S.C. 107), as amended, has requested the President proclaim the second Monday of October of each year as “Columbus Day.”

NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim October 13, 2014, as Columbus Day. I call upon the people of the United States to observe this day with appropriate ceremonies and activities. I also direct that the flag of the United States be displayed on all public buildings on the appointed day in honor of our diverse history and all who have contributed to shaping this Nation.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this tenth day of October, in the year of our Lord two thousand fourteen, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-ninth.


BARACK OBAMA

Venezuelan demonstrators use ropes to topple a Christopher Columbus statue in Caracas.

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@Gail+Combs:
Gail, respectfully, I don’t think what happened to your dad, as reprehensible as that was, translates to “So it is not just blacks that are targeted”. I never said white people were never targeted (your word). If anything, I would think you would be more appalled by the statistic I provided. Does it not bother you that little black girls are more likely to endure that same trauma? You’ve gotten to the heart of the matter. It isn’t about some old man feeling aggrieved about labels on a message board. It’s about what we allow happen to children.

@Tom: You’re kidding, right Tom? You do know what ‘created’ racism is don’t you? If it’s one of your Rev’s that is saying racism, then whatever they’re talking about, that’s the ‘created’ racism. They are only involved to get a payday. Rev Jessee and Rev Al I’m talking about, of course.
So I see you called Retire a racist:

And you sound like a horrible racist.

Tell us what a horrible racist sounds like Tom, is it something like you? I have problems recognizing racism until they show themselves by using the word.

@Redteam:

You’re kidding, right Tom? You do know what ‘created’ racism is don’t you?

Anything can be created in the minds of the gullible. But Im still waiting for an example of the dreaded “created racism”.

If it’s one of your Rev’s that is saying racism, then whatever they’re talking about, that’s the ‘created’ racism. They are only involved to get a payday. Rev Jessee and Rev Al I’m talking about, of course.

One of my Rev’s?! I love you, Redteam. What race do you think I be, bro? You think I be chillin with da Rev? We gots to get some payday! You smart. You smart, white man. You figured us out, huh? We we rappin, we be getting some payday. I be callin you on dis Obama phone.

You right about us, Misser Redteam. I be like, dat nigger name don’t bother me none. I likes it. But da dimocrats be like, “pretend you be angry”! I jus do what they say! No benevolent conservative done teach me supply side economics yet, Misser Redteam. It’s not my fault. I dont know nuttin about the Laffer Curve.

@Tom:

What is it like to be a self proclaimed Christian who is also a self proclaimed racist?

Why don’t you ask Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, the self-proclaimed leaders of Black America? No one is more racist than those two, yet they claim to be Christians, and they get invited to the White House to visit with Obama.

You see, if I wanted someone to preach to me about Christianity, I would prefer Jesse Lee Peterson or Rev. C. L. Bryant. Men who truly understand the teachings of Christ as well as the message brought by Dr. King. Not the other two imposters.

And I don’t carry my opinion of the black rappers to ALL black people. I have listed many names here tonight of black Americans I hold in the highest regard. You can add to that Col. Allen West and General Honore. But I will continue to say that the worst enemy black Americans have are not white people, but themselves because they refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, choosing instead to blame every thing on “whitey”. It’s not white people selling drugs to black children, it’s not white people getting black women pregnant and then dumping her and leaving his own child for other things, it’s not while people telling black kids to drop out of school, or telling black women to have abortions reducing the black population from where it should be and it damn sure ain’t white people burning down black neighborhoods and looting black owned stores.

Tell me, Tom; are you black or do you just suffer from an acute case of white guilt?

@retire05:

You’re kind of over-explaining your racism. I don’t think of racism as something that has nuance.

Tell me, Tom; are you black or do you just suffer from an acute case of white guilt?

I have a confession to make. I don’t hate black people or other races. I don’t even hate Muslims. Or gays. Can you explain what’s wrong with me?

@Tom:

You’re so upset. This must happen all the time.

Project much Tom? Your trollish drivel doesn’t upset me in the least. Unlike Democrats, I am not ruled by my emotions.

I’d like to hear about these incidents that are worse than false accusations of rape.

Twisting my words to say something I didn’t does you no credit. Or is this yet another manifistation of your continued lack of reading comprehension? Regardless, it is a typical trollish tactic that you enjoy employing, no doubt because by doing so you are impressing yourself with your “cleverness”. (Yawn)

I clearly was not comparing false accusations of racism with false accusations of rape. The common factor is false accusations, which can be used to ruin someone’s reputation. Just look at the Paula Dean witch hunt where she was pilloried for something she said 30 years ago. And here I thought you lefties were all supportive of reform. Or is that only for criminals?

I’m a troll because i don’t agree with you and you’re frustrated your performance in this debate is, well, pathetic. Is that why you’re calling me a troll?

Oh there goes little Tommy patting himself on the back because he has deluded himself into thinking he is winning an argument by calling his opponent “frustrated” and “pathetic”. You must be so pleased with yourself.

No Tom, I refer to you as a troll because that is what you have always shown yourself to be on Flopping Aces. You show-up at first pretending to actually debate a subject, but when you get in trouble you fall back on the typical trollish bag of games, tricks and nonsense. I’ve experienced far better trolls on Usenet back in the 1990’s.

There were some very vocal conservatives on this site, writers for the site in fact, who pushed against the right wing group think that basically argued this kid deserved to die.

Now don’t lie Tom. I challenge you to show us where a writer for Flopping Aces said that “Trayvon Martin deserved to die.” You are insulting Curt and the whole FA crew with such a false accusation. You lefties are sure fond of tossing out false accusations.

Gail, if I got out of a car with a gun and started following your son, a complete stranger to me, and your son ended up shot dead, give me the scearios under which you would agree the entire affair was your son’s fault…

Alinsky much? Nice misrepresentation of the facts you have going on there. I like the way you try to personalize it so as to force Gail into only considering the event from your own twisted POV. Pretty slick troll boy.

@Ditto:

Now don’t lie Tom. I challenge you to show us where a writer for Flopping Aces said that “Trayvon Martin deserved to die.” You are insulting Curt and the whole FA crew with such a false accusation. You lefties are sure fond of tossing out false accusations.

. I challenge you to show us all where I claimed any writer wrote what you quoted.

Do many people here believe it? It is the prevalent theory. Tell me, was a false picture of treyvon ever shown here and never corrected?

Tough loss Rich. It was a very good game.

@Tom:

One of my Rev’s?! I love you, Redteam. What race do you think I be, bro? You think I be chillin with da Rev? We gots to get some payday! You smart. You smart, white man. You figured us out, huh? We we rappin, we be getting some payday. I be callin you on dis Obama phone.

What dialect are you using there, Tom? You must be from LA or San Fran.
I could also guess you write rap music.

@Tom:

. I challenge you to show us all where I claimed any writer wrote what you quoted.

I quoted you directly from your very own reply #88 posted to Gail Tom. But I see that you quickly went back and edited that portion out afterhad I replied to you above in 106.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. The fear of being banned from Flopping Aces for lying and making false claims of Curt and it’s other Authors must have been too much for our little troll Tom, so he wet himself a little. Them he went back and edited out his offensive claim against the staff of FA, now he dishonestly challenges me to show his quote (I had already quoted) after editing that portion out. You are a very dishonest person Tom.

@Aqua: A classic. Tough to lose on that call. Technically correct but The Admiral’s son was soooo open no d-back was gonna get there.

@Ditto:

Tell me, Tom; are you black or do you just suffer from an acute case of white guilt?

I have a confession to make. I don’t hate black people or other races. I don’t even hate Muslims. Or gays. Can you explain what’s wrong with me?

Notice how Tommy the Troll avoids answering a direct question? And by editing his entry, he seems to think he is too cute by half.

@retire05:

What can I say. Tom is a typical troll. Not the best I’ve run into, as he is rather sloppy in covering his tracks. Surely he realized that we all received emails of his unedited #88 post. His denial-challenge to me to prove I had quoted him, (after I had copied and pasted verbatim from his original #88 and after he subsequently went back and edited what I quoted from him out, without considering that all of us who posted in this thread had already received the original #88 in our email inboxes,) was a futile and desperate attempt at CYA by Tommy boy.

Note: to lurking trolls. All who have posted to a Flopping Aces thread will receive a copy of all comments posted after theirs, unless they uncheck the little box below (i.e. “Notify me when new comments are added). And that does mean the original, prior to any editing you may do after clicking on the [Post Comment] button. You will not however, receive your own replies.

@Ditto:

What can I say. Tom is a typical troll

Yep, with a nasty habit of accusing others of being “racist” if they don’t subscribe to his “hate whitey” mantra.

Oddly enough, there is a plethora of trolls on conservative websites now. I guess they got so used to trolling Organizing For Obama, they are a) still getting paid by OFO or b) can’t break the habit. Hell, OFO, now Organizing For America still advertises for trolls on Craig’s List.

@retire05:

I have to admit that I was quite surprised that Tom had the trollish Cojones to falsely accuse FA’s Authors of writing declarations that “Trayvon Martin deserved to die.” A rather reprehensible and stupid attempt to slander. But that is the despicable game far-lefties are playing lately. Eventually. one or more of these Democrat nit-wit trolls is going to get hit with a hefty libel/slander lawsuit. They are not as anonymous as they think they are.

@Ditto: What did Tom say that indicated he was accusing F.A Authors of writing declarations that ” Trayvon Martin deserved to die.” Exact original quote. Thanks RW
I see you are currently on line.

@Rich Wheeler:

Exact quote was pasted in #106 here it is again:

There were some very vocal conservatives on this site, writers for the site in fact, who pushed against the right wing group think that basically argued this kid deserved to die.

The only ones on FA who are considered “in fact” “writers for the site” are it’s Authors: Curt, Wordsmith, Aye, Skookum, CJ Grisham, James Raider, DrJohn & Vince (Skye, Scott, ChrisG, & Mataharley are former Authors, although as I recall Mataharley was still considered an Author at the time of the Zimmerman Martin case). The rest of us are all guest commentators.

@Ditto: He said “pushed against.” Pls rethink your accusation

Tom deserves an apology Ditto. From what I’ve observed here I think you are a big enough man to offer him one. Semper Fi RW

@Rich+Wheeler:

There was more to it than that in his #88 reply, but I have already since deleted the email I can no longer provide the full paragraph. After my reply in #106, Tom (as I noted) edited his original comment. If someone still has the original comment, or one of the moderators can provide it, post it here and perhaps I will reconsider. Tom without question claimed that unnamed right wing writers on this site stated that “Trayvon Martin deserved to die”. Tom provided no links, nor did he state whom specifically he was making his accusation against. Therefore, he could have been falsely accusing any one of us including an FA Author. The closest that I remember any of the writers here stating anything coming close to that, were those who wrote that (in their opinions) Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force in self-defense against Martin’s if he felt his life was in danger. Self defense in a physical altercation may result in justifiable homicide. That can not be in any way interpreted to infer that the person killed “deserved to die”, only that the killing was justified.

No Rich. On further consideration, I don’t believe Tom deserves an apology at all, as he made what I believe to be a false accusation against unnamed FA writer(s), without backing up his accusation with proof. Then when I called him on it, he immediately edited his post and removed the accusation. Even if the full original paragraph could be restored, It doesn’t change the fact that he is disparaging others who wrote about the Trayvon Martin case, without proving his claim, and pointing out whom he was accusing. A good many of us are getting fed up with the lies and false accusations used by your fellow leftists to attack Republicans and conservatives.

@Ditto: Tom clearly said Writers for the site ( which you CORRECTLY pointed out were the authors) pushed AGAINST the right wing group think that basically thought this kid deserved to die.
He wasn’t castigating F.A. Authors–he was Complimenting them. Pretty clear Ditto, unless you got something else.
BTW I looked at the original #88 which I believe you could do (have done) as well.

@Rich+Wheeler:

I already told you I no longer have the full text of the original, so how could I possibly look at it.

It doesn’t change the fact that Tom made accusations against unnamed right wing groups which he failed to prove. He incidentally also failed to give links to FA Author push backs on said his unreferenced accusations, and he compounds this by editing out his original accusation in #88, then then deceitfully challenging me to prove that he ever made an accusation.

Without backing up his accusations with references, and then removing his accusations altogether after he was called on it, then pretending he made never made said accusations, no Rich, Tom does not deserve an apology for acting the troll.

Semper Fi.

@Ditto: Maybe Word would be kind enough to provide this original unedited post you claim “attempts to slander the authors.”
Don’t buy it. Didn’t happen.

@Rich+Wheeler:

As Tom didn’t identify specifically “whom” he was slandering in his removed accusation, gave no references to back up any part of his accusations, and none of us can read his mind to figure out who Tom was including in his unnamed “right wing group” there is no way you, I or anyone else can claim to know whether he was referring to an Author, a guest poster, or whatever GOP, Republican, conservative… There is no way to point out exactly whom he was accusing. You don’t know, I don’t know, Wordsmith doesn’t know, etc.

Stalemate.

If Tom is going to accuse someone of stating that Trayvon “deserved to die” it behooves him to man up and prove his accusation as well as name exactly whom he is accusing, and not merely toss it out as a general slanderous charge against “right wing groups”, for in doing so with such a vague blanket false accusation he wrongs all right wingers.

@Ditto: If Word would provide the original post #88 we can see if you Falsely accused Tom of slandering the authors. I contend he was complimenting them. Quite a difference.
Would ask Word, who I HIGHLY respect, to voice any input he may have.
Nuff said. For now.
Were you a Marine?—if so details pls. Thanks

@Rich+Wheeler:

Tom did not reference whom he was slandering. Until Tom provides such valid reference, it is impossible to know who he was slandering. Whether it was a fellow FA author or not, (which we can’t know because Tom never said,) he was still slandering a whole group of people. He then removed his unproven accusation with no explanation.

Stalemate.

No, I served but not as a marine. You toss around simper fi so gratuitously I just figured that someone aught to give you one in return. Marines are not the only veterans who served this nation with honor and will always be loyal to it.

For that matter, it is now irrelevant for Tom to now after the fact clarify whom he was slandering. If, in slandering a unnamed and unreferenced right wing group, which knowingly or not might possibly have in such expansive vagueness have also included but a single Author. Then I would still be correct in my assessment of his accusation. Nor would re-posting his original accusation be any more than a moot point, as Tom did not qualify his offensive claim with proof. At this point, considering Tom never named the actual target of his accusation, it is not possible to determine whom precisely he was slandering. Logically, that leads us into stalemate, with the only clear fact being that Tom without a doubt slandered a right wing group without providing proof of his accusation. QED

You seem to think you know all the particulars of Tom’s accusation, so why don’t you inform us Rich and reference to us the proof that Tom refused to give us.

Precisely whom were these “right wingers” Tom references? Are you sure? While you’re at it, provide us with the exact location of that statement (i.e. Trayvon “deserved to die”) that Tom bases his accusation on. After doing so, tell us how you were able to get into Tom’s mind to be sure that your references are indeed the same ones Tom was referencing.

@Ditto: As you know an accusation is only slander if it is false.
As I see it, your unfounded accusation against Tom was slander and deserving of an apology.
I’d like to hear what actual AUTHOR WORDSMITH has to say on this subject.

@Rich+Wheeler:

@Ditto: As you know an accusation is only slander if it is false.
As I see it, your unfounded accusation against Tom was slander and deserving of an apology.

Are you accusing Ditto of making the false claim not only about what Tom said, but also that Tom deleted the portion that Ditto was questioning, AFTER Ditto questioned Tom about it?

Why are you siding with Tom, who deleted part of his post in #88, while castigating Ditto for calling attention to Tom’s deceit?

And I would have liked to have seen proof of Tom’s accusations when he made them. I can only have slandered Tom, if he had provided proof of whom it was he was accusing when he made the accusation. Then again, had he stated whom it was he was accusing, I might never have made my subsequent accusation. This is all now mute. We can keep arguing about this until the cows come home, but without Tom having provided proof of his accusation at the time he made it, it is simply too late to now go back for clarification. We can never know absolutely whom it was Tom was accusing. Might his “right wing group” have included an FA Author however indirectly? It is now impossible to know. As Tom made a vague yet wide encompassing accusation, it was his onus to support it with references. Since he did not I can only conclude that he was in his accusation including an unknown number of innocent people in his accusation. You don’t know if my accusation was unfounded because you don’t know whom back then at that moment in time it was that Tom was referencing.

Stalemate, Mexican stand off if you will. Hell will freeze over before he gets an apology from me for his unsubstantiated general accusation against an unnamed and unreferenced “right wing group.” Flopping Aces itself is a predominately right wing group, yet there are an infinite number of methods in which to group right wingers, so who can say now whom all Tom was including back then in his accusation. Not you, not I and not even Wordsmith, because none of us was in Tom’s brain when he made it and nor did he provide a reference.

@retire05: Ditto says Tom deleted something substantive-in #88–yet can’t prove it and can’t even remember what it was??
Ditto misinterpreted and misrepresented Tom’s statement in #88 where he actually COMPLIMENTED F.A. authors for standing Against “right wing group think that basically thought Trayvon deserved to die.” When this was brought to Ditto’s attention, rather than simply apologizing for his mistake, he moved the goal post and started talking about something else. Pretty simple.

@Rich+Wheeler:

FYI, Tom DID delete part of his original post #88. Yet you are not only attacking Ditto for mentioning the deception, you are trying, as is your M.O., to drag others (Wordsmith) into the mix.

Do you have any cause to automatically assume that Ditto is lying? I also read Tom’s original post, received it in my mail box and deleted it. But you obviously have taken sides and now you are demanding that the person you are chastising give you proof of Tom’s deceptive actions when he deleted part of his post #88.

Typical behavior on your part, RW.

@retire05: Mighty convenient you both deleted #88. What did he delete? The comment as it stands is pretty clear in it’s COMPLIMENTARY tone towards F.A. authors.
I take the post as it stands and don’t believe Tom deleted anything substantive regarding subject at hand–i.e Ditto’s accusation that Tom slandered F.A. authors. That slander is there for ALL to see.
You’re a smart gal with a good memory 05—What heinous statement did Tom delete?

@Rich Wheeler:

I see you are currently on line.

where is that shown Rich, I don’t see it on my system.

@retire05:

Tom made an despicable accusation against an unnamed right wing group. He provided no reference to prove his accusation was valid or identifying who exactly he was accusing. When I called him on it and suggested he might have included an FA Author in his accusation, he quickly removed his accusation. He then posted a reply denying he had ever posted an accusation and deceitfully challenged me to prove he had issued an accusation. As I had already deleted the original email notification that included his original accusation (along with all the others previous on this thread,) It was not possible for me to provide the entire paragraph containing his accusation. Rich does not deny that Tom made his accusation, but has decided to nit-pick my counter accusation and holds that in his opinion Tom never included any FA Authors in his original accusation. As such Rich claims that I owe Tom an apology. Rich of course has no way of knowing precisely what “right wing group” Tom was accusing, nor do any of the rest of us. Considering that Tom never identified exactly whom he was accusing in his accusation, nor referenced a specific thread to support his accusation, I hold that it is now impossible to rule out any particular “right winger” or “right wing grouping” from having been the “right wing group” Tom was making his unreferenced accusation towards (with the only acceptation being certain FA Authors whom Tom also neglected to identify).

Logically, as we can not rule out the possibility that a single FA Author might have also somehow been included in Tom’s unidentified “right wing group,” and as Tom quickly removed his accusation, as well as denied he ever made it, and has since disappeared into the woodwork, I believe that it is entirely possible that I was correct in my accusation. Given that Tom’s offensive and vague accusation might have included a great many innocent persons, I utterly refuse to apologize to him over his trollish behavior.

@Rich+Wheeler:

Ditto misinterpreted and misrepresented Tom’s statement in #88 where he actually COMPLIMENTED F.A. authors for standing Against “right wing group think that basically thought Trayvon deserved to die.”

Sorry Rich, don’t agree with you on that statement. It is so poorly punctuated that it can be read with more than one meaning. You interpreted it in the most favorable light to the Libs.

@Tom: 92

Everything Martin did is contingent upon a stupid and criminal decision by Zimmerman, an admitted vigilante.

when and where did Zimmerman admit he was a vigilante?

Word There seems to be a friendly disagreement over changes made by Tom in his original #88 and the 88 as currently posted. Both Ditto and O5 deleted the original and cannot recall what the changes were.
If you could provide the original, juxtaposed to the current, I’m hopeful we can amicably resolve this dispute. Thanks much RW

@Tom:100

Do you subscribe to some of that antebellum southern Christianity that celebrated white supremacy?

Why did you narrow this to ‘southern’? Most of the slave trading took place in the North. Or don’t you know the history of slavery in the US?

@Redteam: Referencing the blocked quote in #117. How can the punctuation be improved? How do you interpret it’s meaning? Thanks RW
Talk about interpreting. N.D. winning T.D. that was flagged was the SAME play that went for a T.D earlier in the game.

@Rich+Wheeler:

@Ditto: Tom clearly said Writers for the site ( which you CORRECTLY pointed out were the authors) pushed AGAINST the right wing group think that basically thought this kid deserved to die.

Rich, you are arguing from the wrong set of facts. You’re using an altered statement as your basis.
Side note: I went back to my email and the orig message was not still there, it also was not in ‘read’ mail or in deleted mail. Deleted mail ended just prior to his message.

@Redteam:We are talking about Tom’s statement blocked verbatim by Ditto in #117. Pretty darn clear what Tom meant. There is claim that Tom changed his original #88 which current meaning is very clear.
Seems both Ditto and o5 erased the original and can’t recall substantive changes he supposedly made. I guess you join the group. We’ll see if the author can clear this up. BTW you haven’t answered my question to you in #140. Thanks

@Redteam:

Side note: I went back to my email and the orig message was not still there, it also was not in ‘read’ mail or in deleted mail. Deleted mail ended just prior to his message.

Do note that Rich says:

@Ditto: Tom clearly said Writers for the site ( which you CORRECTLY pointed out were the authors) pushed AGAINST the right wing group think that basically thought this kid deserved to die.
He wasn’t castigating F.A. Authors–he was Complimenting them. Pretty clear Ditto, unless you got something else.
BTW I looked at the original #88 which I believe you could do (have done) as well.

Either Rich saw Tom’s original accusation, or he didn’t. Rich seems to plays both sides of original disputed post in #123 where he asks me to quote Tom’s full unedited post. If he saw that unedited post, then he could have provided that for himself. Tom’s #88 post however was edited to remove his accusation altogether. Retire05 also saw Tom’s original post and agreed the accusation was there.

Note: My reply to Tom was:

Now don’t lie Tom. I challenge you to show us where a writer for Flopping Aces said that “Trayvon Martin deserved to die.” You are insulting Curt and the whole FA crew with such a false accusation. You lefties are sure fond of tossing out false accusations.

At question, is still whomTom was referring to in his accusation at the time he wrote it. As Tom gave no reference whatsoever indicating whom he considered to be this “right wing group.” I proposed it could be “Curt and the whole FA crew.” A suggestion that led Tom to immediately remove his offensive accusation. I found that to be quite curious that Tom would so quickly attempt to CYA. I had to wonder, Why did Tom feel the need to remove his accusation, if he thought that FA’s Authors agreed with his accusation? That makes no sense. After having deleted his accusation, why did he then smugly challenge me to find what he deleted to prove he made his accusation? (Kind of reminiscent of the Lois Lerner’s lost hard drive, don’t you think?) Unless Tom’s original intent was to slander a Flopping Aces Author, only to think better of it after I called him out. Yes, that seems like the most logical conclusion, as angering an Author could end his carefree days trolling Flopping Aces. I admit that I really don’t know who Tom was slandering, yet I do know that it was right after we were discussing false accusations that he decided to post his.

@Ditto: What is this “original offensive accusation,” that Tom supposedly removed. I’ve seen nothing different from what is currently posted. I simply ask you or O5 or anyone else to show a different version from what is currently posted as #88. Alternatively, tell me as best you remember what he said that is different than the current #88.
Why is this so difficult for you guys?

@Rich Wheeler:

I’ve seen nothing different from what is currently posted.

Make up your mind which claim you wish to take. At first you claimed that you read Tom’s original unedited #88 post with his accusation, now you claim his #88 post hasn’t changed. Either you read his original accusation or you didn’t.

Retire05 read the same original unedited post last night,roughly the same time I did, after Tom had written it. I copied and pasted at least part of his rant, in my reply to Tom as I was writing it. As I am not in the habit of memorizing other people’s posts, I can not say verbatim the entire paragraph he had written prior to his editing it. (My reply eventually ending up to be #106.) As time stands still for no one, sometime during the time I was writing my reply, Tom went back and edited #88 removing his accusation. Sometime after I posted my reply, I returned to Flopping Aces and discovered that Tom had altered #88, removing his accusation. and was now denying that he had ever made one.

I don’t manage Flopping Aces’ added comment notification system, so I don’t have a clue how long it takes until it mails out a comment notice, nor at what point during the edit time window it sends them. I have in the past received comment notices, read them and discovered that by the time I opened my browser to Flopping Aces, the comment had been edited. I generally accept that, as writers might notice punctuation, spelling or grammatical errors. or simply had another thought come to mind after posting and edit their comments to include something.

Posting a despicable accusation, waiting a bit, editing it out before the edit time window closes, then pretending that it never happened, is disingenuous at best, and precisely what Tom did.

@Ditto:

Make up your mind which claim you wish to take. At first you claimed that you read Tom’s original unedited #88 post with his accusation, now you claim his #88 post hasn’t changed. Either you read his original accusation or you didn’t.

Do you mean the “original unedited #88 post” that you claimed to have a copy of, but your dog ate it along with your homework? Honestly, is this all a joke? Your basing all these comments on something you claim I wrote AND that you had a copy of, but you deleted it? Not that that’s stopped you from trying to weasel out of responsbility for accusations you’ve made. I like post 130 with all your new criteria invented days later (“I can only have slandered Tom, if he had provided proof of whom it was he was accusing when he made the accusation). That’s funny.

For the record, I don’t recall if I edited post 88. I don’t know what I would have edited out. I’ve made it no secret that I consider what happened in the right wing media and blogsosphere regarding Martin pretty reprehensible. It’s called character assassination. It’s called blaming the victim. Unsubstantiated lists of crimes. Fake thugish photographs widely distributed. What exactly is the endgame of trying to portray a dead teen as a dangerous, criminal thug, Ditto? What exactly is it trying to convince the reader of? Of course most media outlets or commentors aren’t going to use the words “deserved to die” (except when they do), but I choose not to be obtuse in my interpretation of the obvious. I’ll give you the opportunity to slink away on a technicality. Here is right wing hero and Republican campaigner, Ted Nugent, on Martin. You tell me he isn’t euphemistically insinuating that Martin deserved to die, and you’re off the hook. I just want to see you write that I’ve slandered Ted Nugent’s noble words with my interpretation.

http://www.nhregister.com/general-news/20130803/ted-nugent-sounds-off-on-haters-new-haven-protests?viewmode=default

Of the Trayvon Martin case, Nugent said, “Trayvon got justice.” He went on to say that Martin was a “gangsta wannabe” who had a “bloodthirst,” as evidenced by the fact that he was supposedly eager to “get into fights with people.” He said Martin showed racism in calling George Zimmerman a “cracka.”

@Ditto: I’ll say it this way. I read what I believe was the original #88. I read the current 88—no substantive difference. You accused Tom of slandering the F.A. authors based on what? Give me what he said or, You owe Tom an apology.
I trust you’ll respond to his 146.
Nugent is a despicable cretin and I’ve told him so.

@Tom:

I’ve made it no secret that I consider what happened in the right wing media and blogsosphere regarding Martin pretty reprehensible. It’s called character assassination.

Yet, do you support your claim by providing those “right wing media and blogosphere” links? Nope. You link to snopes.com and mediamatters, both far left media. Why don’t you link to the actual right wing sources you claim committed “character assassination” by reporting that Martin had been expelled from school and that Martin also liked a drug cocktail that used Robutussin cough medicine as a base as well as revealing that Martin was into MMA fighting?

And when, exactly, did Ted Nugent become the voice of the “right wing media and blogosphere?” Last I heard the only influence Ted Nugent has is one vote at a polling station. And thanks for linking to Charles Johnson’s blog, since every conservative blogger in America has distanced themselves from that loon. Johnson jumped the shark a long time ago, but being the liberal you are, you didn’t notice the beating he’s taken from the right for his crazy smears against right wing bloggers.

You changed your post #88, and now you prove that you are not man enough to admit it. Thanks for the confirmation of just how low you are willing to slink.

@Richard Wheeler:

Give me what he said or, You owe Tom an apology.

No, RW, you owe Ditto an apology for insinuating he’s a liar. And tell me, why do you find it so strange that we would delete emails of posts that were already addressed? Do you not delete your emails? Or are you keeping them in your inbox until Hell freezes over?

@retire05: Tom NEVER accused FA Authors of writing that Trayvon Martin deserved to die. In # 115 Ditto said he did. So yeah he lied.
Before you reared up I was willing to accept he misinterpreted Tom’s comments. But he doubled down and you cheered him on.