64 Responses to “Imagine a World without America”

  1. 51

    another vet

    @Nanny G: I wasn’t thinking in terms of indentured servants so much as immigrants (especially the Irish who had it worse of all), women, and child labor. They certainly had horrendous working conditions. And as you point out, slaves were expensive to replace. Women, children, and immigrants weren’t. If they perished, they just went out and got a replacement. In both cases, be it the large Southern slave owner or the Northern industrialist, they were quite inhumane especially by today’s standards.

    Naturally, the Indians had it worse than anyone by far given they were almost extinct by the end of the 19th century but that wasn’t due to working conditions.

  2. 52

    another vet

    @ilovebeeswarzone:

    they could not abolish RACIST as a thought, it was to deep on many

    An excellent point. That couldn’t be abolished then anymore than it can be abolished now. About all you can do is confront it when it pops up. People’s views on the matter are theirs and theirs alone. They have to change themselves.

  3. 54

    Jim S

    If you’re interested in a sci-fi approach to the topic, check out John Birmingham’s “Without Warning”. An entertaining yarn…. 😉

  4. 55

    ilovebeeswarzone

    FMB42
    ALL THE WELFARE WOULD BE AT WORK, AND THE COMPANY WOULD HAVE MONEY TO HIRE MORE,
    THE CHILDREN WOULD BE ON PRIVATE SCHOOL TO GET THE BEST OF TEACHERS,
    THE UNIONS WOULD BE DISMANTLE NOT NEEDED, BECAUSE THE WORKERS WOULD BE SECURE AND NO NEED OF THAT CRUTCH TO WORK,
    ALL BY THEMSELVES, AND THERE WOULD BE A GREAT CHOICE OF JOBS,
    LESS ABORTION OF AMERICANS FUTUR BABY WHO WOULD LIVE,
    THE PEOPLE WOULD DANCE , PRAY, AND CARRY THE FLAG IN THE STREETS ALL OVER THE USA,
    AND THE USA WOULD AGAIN BE THE MOST RESPECTED IN THE WORLD,
    THE MILITARY WOULD BE FIGHTING THE WAR AND WIN IT, AND THERE WOULD NO MORE BE
    LOOSING LIMBS OR DEATH, ON THE WAR ZONE, BECAUSE WAR WOULD BE FOUGHT WITH ALL THE WEAPONS PLANES AND TANKS AND ARMOR AVAILABLE BUT LEFT OUT BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO PAY SO TO PROTECT THE TROOPS, THAT WAR WOULD BE SWIFT AND TOTAL IN A MONTH,
    NO MORE SPENDING YEARS ON A WAR THEY REFUSE TO NAME
    IT AS A WAR,
    AND NO OTHER COUNTRY WOULD EVER DARE TO ATTACK THE USA, BECAUSE THEY WOULD DISAPEAR FROM THIS EARTH FOREVER,
    THE BORDERS WOULD BE SEALED TO ANY INTRUSION AND THE PEOPLE WOULD FEEL SAFE AGAIN AND THE CHILDREN WOULD PLAY AND BE HAPPY AGAIN, THERE WOULD NO MORE BE ABUSE FROM ANY POWER,GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE PROCECUTED AND TAKE AWAY FROM THE GOVERNMENT,
    WITHOUT DELAY,

  5. 56

    ilovebeeswarzone

    David Brickner
    HI,
    yes but i think it must be because the youngs are being drawn to the UN WORLD GLOBAL COUNTRY talking heads,
    INSTEAD OF THE USA, more and more at school most of all,
    WHERE THERE ARE NO FLAG NO RECITE THE ALLEGIANCE, THEY SAID THERE IS NO TIME FOR IT,
    WHAT A BUNCH OF IDIOTS TO GIVE THAT EXCUSE, AND TRAITORS, TO MAKE THEM BELIEVE THERE IS NO NEED TO LEARN OF THE AMERICA MOVIE, IT SHOULD BE SHOWN IN EVRY SCHOOL OF THE USA, AND WITH ENPHASIS TO SHOW PRIDE TO BELONG TO SUCH A EXTRAORDINARY, COUNTRY THE MOST
    EXCEPTIONALIST OF THE WORLD,
    SO HOW CAN THE YOUTH BE INTERESTED TO SEE A MOVIE THEY THINK IS FROM THE PAST, IF THEY ARE LEFT IGNORANT OF WHERE THEY LIVED,
    IT BRING TO MY MIND A GROUP OF YOUNGS SIGNING A SONG
    OF AMERICA IN THEIR WINDOW SEPARATED BY EACH ROOM,
    YET SINGNING ALL TOGETHER,
    I WAS SO IMPRESS, I ASK FOR A COPY OR YOU TUBE OF IT,
    I HOPE SOMEONE MADE A COPY OF IT,
    BYE

  6. 57

    Tom

    @another vet:

    They were in a large part racists. I don’t see the CW as some galliant attempt by the valiant white warriors of the North invading the South to free the slaves. Amongst the Abolitionist minority it was certainly true, but not amongst the overwhelmingly majority of Northern whites.

    That’s all true. But what exactly do you think it proves? Being a racist isn’t the same thing as owning slaves. The society that supported slavery in the South supported it in every aspect of its being: economically, socially, institutionally, even religiously . In the North, you were free to be a racist, or not, but you weren’t free to own slaves. This isn’t a relative exercise. The South was what it was: a society built upon slavery and all that entailed. Nothing happening outside its borders is going to change that fact or make it seem less barbaric.

    I see the CW not as the guys in the white hats from the North going to fight the guys in the black hats from the South, but rather the guys in the gray hats in the North going to fight the guys in perhaps a slightly darker shade of gray hats in the South.

    I agree 100%. Only zealots and extremists believe in simple dichotomies in a complex world. The contemporary right in America is a good example of course. Anyone to left of Ted Cruz is a Marxist who wants to destroy America. That’s what I keep hearing, as I don my black hat.

    McPherson, based on the 1860 census, put the number of white slave owning families in the upper South at 20% and 37% in the lower South and a minority of those had the overwhelming majority of slaves. In other words, the vast majority of Southerners did not own slaves. It’s no endorsement of slavery nor a downplaying of it.

    That’s all true. And the majority of Germans were not members of the Nazi party during WWII. The system, the leadership, are the point, not the innocent people caught up in it.

    I think it’s safe to say that the overwhelming majority of Americans today from all political stripes and sections of our country would say that they would have been abolitionists back then. One of the points I’m trying to make here, is that no one knows that for sure because we weren’t alive back then and views on race and slavery weren’t the same as they are now, including those in the North.

    I don’t dismiss this. It’s a two way street though. We also can’t dismiss what happened back then and ascribe no agency to those involved, as if it was just an accident of history. The South chose to maintain slavery as the backbone of their society well past the point when other Western nations had recognized it as an evil institution. And they did so at a high cost. Regardless of why the CW was fought, the end of slavery was an outcome. The hundred of thousands who died deserve the respect and acknowledgment of the good that came out of their sacrifice.

    I commend you for your erudition and breadth of historical knowledge. I’ve enjoyed your insights.

  7. 58

    Tom

    @another vet:

    No Tom, it’s not an endorsement or downplaying of slavery but merely a statement that those in the North (of which I am one) like to ignore the abuses of their own history.

    I’m not ignoring indentured servitude. But as used it’s also a strawman argument. “Something else bad” isn’t a very compelling argument to use in a debate of this nature.

  8. 59

    ilovebeeswarzone

    i am ignorant of why they name the irish indenture slaves,
    can someone tell me why,
    the word indenture to me is without theets, is it what it mean or what?

  9. 60

    another vet

    @Tom:

    The South was what it was: a society built upon slavery and all that entailed.

    That is why some historians argue that the main cause of the War was that it pitted one society built around free labor and the other around slave labor against one another. In other words, it was conflicting labor systems and cultures.

    The contemporary right in America is a good example of course. Anyone to left of Ted Cruz is a Marxist who wants to destroy America. That’s what I keep hearing, as I don my black hat.

    I believe in the principles of our Constitution. Small limited government, strong national defense, enforcement of our laws, checks and balances, and all of the amendments to the Constitution including the Second. I don’t believe the Constitution is a living, breathing document that can be changed through legislation, presidential executive orders, or court decisions. That makes me the extremist wearing the black hat not you according to the left and this administration so you have nothing to worry about. Despite having good friends who are black (unlike just about everyone I know on the left) and supporting individuals like Allen West and Herman Cain, since I despise Obama that makes me a racist in the eyes of the left as well.

    I commend you for your erudition and breadth of historical knowledge. I’ve enjoyed your insights.

    History is always an interesting subject. There is much to be learned. You obviously like it as well.

  10. 61

    ilovebeeswarzone

    another vet
    you are the best, knowledgeble and so intelligent, you can take on all the tomcats,
    so smoothly,
    they don”t know what to type as an answer,
    AND YOU ARE MY FRIEND ALSO,
    BYE

  11. 63

    another vet

    @Tom:

    I commend you for your erudition and breadth of historical knowledge. I’ve enjoyed your insights.

    You’ve made valid points to your argument and we are probably more in agreement than you think. The best advice I can give you based on this thread as well as those in the past we’ve debates on, is to get rid of the abrasiveness. Notice how our debate went from confrontational to one of substance. People who hold opposite points of view than yours will be a lot more open to your opinions or at least they should be if they are open minded. I normally won’t give the time of day to someone who gets in my face which is why I try to avoid talking politics or history with people who don’t share my views. Notice how I don’t respond to Greg etc. any more. In person, I tell them to either drop the subject or shit will happen.

  12. 64

    FAITH7

    @NanG#1

    One of the parts I thought most highly of was how D’Souza pointed out that looting and simply taking what wasn’t yours was par for the course throughout most of human history (even on the American continents before colonists got here) and even now in many parts of the planet

    Dinesh does make some terrific points in his movie. I went to an early show on the Fourth of July.

    While this is true in early American, European, Middle Eastern/Asian History…your comment made me think….have “some” of us in America reverted back to this? By virtue of our Government, it being the catalyst, the axle (of modern day history) if you will, for effectively ‘stealing’ (looting) from Americans what isn’t theirs? And then redistributing it to those who did not effectively ‘earn’ it? The ‘creators’ at least, had some ‘skin in the game’. Now it is a dam free for all…”Free” for all…total opposite of ‘Freedom for All’ big misinterpreted difference.

    What I also found interesting was the pointing out of the Great Wall of China….in comparison to our Southern Border – China did it for the same reasons to keep people out… where is China’s scorn in the halls of History for that?

    Forget the fence! America should have a Wall!!! And no apologies for saying that either.

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