The National Security Agency has broken privacy rules or overstepped its legal authority thousands of times each year since Congress granted the agency broad new powers in 2008, according to an internal audit and other top-secret documents.
Most of the infractions involve unauthorized surveillance of Americans or foreign intelligence targets in the United States, both of which are restricted by law and executive order. They range from significant violations of law to typographical errors that resulted in unintended interception of U.S. e-mails and telephone calls.
The documents, provided earlier this summer to The Washington Post by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, include a level of detail and analysis that is not routinely shared with Congress or the special court that oversees surveillance. In one of the documents, agency personnel are instructed to remove details and substitute more generic language in reports to the Justice Department and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.
In one instance, the NSA decided that it need not report the unintended surveillance of Americans. A notable example in 2008 was the interception of a “large number” of calls placed from Washington when a programming error confused U.S. area code 202 for 20, the international dialing code for Egypt, according to a “quality assurance” review that was not distributed to the NSA’s oversight staff.
In another case, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which has authority over some NSA operations, did not learn about a new collection method until it had been in operation for many months. The court ruled it unconstitutional.
I’m sure Obama will pull himself away from his golf game anytime now to tell us no one need worry….we’re all in good hands.
See author page
James Raider
oops my error
i repeat the above,
MataHarley
we have to admit this religion is taught in school all over by MUSLIM TEACHERS,
as oppose to the CHRISTIAN RELIGION which is no more taught,
there is something very wrong in there, they even teach it on preschool kids,
as we learned, so it’s more leaning to kill this USA THAN NOT,
ONCE INDOCTRINATED THEY BECOME LOYAL FUTURE TERRORIST TO BE AGAINST AMERICA, THEY CALL THEM SLEEPERS,
HEY, THEY MIGHT BE IN THE MILLION MUSLIM MARCH ON 9/11/13
OMG… people might *march* for their beliefs in America. gasp….
Maybe we should tell the NSA and other intel agencies they should *investigate* everyone who marches, eh Bees?
@retire05, #51:
Really? So what conclusions should be drawn from your reflexive condemnation of something that saved the life of a desperately sick child?
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’ve stubbornly refused to watch the video.
MataHarley
one million MUSLIMS to march is asking for trouble, specially if they march on 9/11/13,
WHY do they need ONE MILLION specified?
he said they where victimize and denied it with JUDGE JEANINE, AT FOX,SOME ANSWER TO HER
something wrong will come out of it
they are asking for trouble,
@another vet: #27
Hitting the “MUTE” button is a minor inconvenience when I want to find out what is going on around the world. Has anyone else noticed that obama’s voice hardly ever changes tone while he reads from the TOTUS? I notice this right away when he started campaigning for president.
This tells me that he does’t read the speeches ahead of time. Remember when he read someone else’s speech and didn’t know it, even when he thanked HIMSELF for being there. He doesn’t even listen to himself when he gives a speech. Why should I?
@Smorgasbord:
That can’t be. He is much more intelligent than everyone else. Just ask him or one of his sheep.
@Greg.. reposting this from another thread that I did in response to Bees and weed, legalization etal. Gupta may be late to the later research and possibilities of cannabis, but at least he got there. It was a well done documentary, and incorporated viewpoints from both aspects.
@ilovebeeswarzone, the effect of cannabinoids is natural, already in our bodies (present in breast milk as a natural development tool for the brain), and the desired effect is targeted specifically at receptors in the brain. The discovery of the human cannabinoid receptors and their function has been in the last few decades, and some have been summarized in this 2011 study by Neil Goodman in April 2011.
One of the medical cases on the Gupta documentary was a young man that was suffering from uncontrollable muscle spasms. They had him on a wide variety of far more addictive drugs, which left him less functional and suffering from the side effects of those drugs in personality disorders. In his case, after trying all the prescription drugs, the lesser cost of marijuana, like the epileptic young girl, has returned his life back to normalcy.
Hemp goes way back in even American history. The first POTUS, George Washington, grew cannabis on his farm for decades, and was rumored to use it to keep his chronic toothache pain in check. And as James Raider points out, the uses for this inexpensive source are vast.
The weed debate comes from two angles… financial (big pharma has a vested interest in their more expensive and addictive drugs being the primary delivery for pain mitigation). The second comes from those who prefer to legislate human morality. This experiment was played out to disastrous effects with prohibition on alcohol… a so called “gateway drug” with far more negative effects on the human body and mind.
That didn’t work out so well, but that didn’t stop people like Harry Anslinger… Drug Commissioner thru POTUS admins from Hoover to Kennedy. His charm and reprehensible attitude is reflected in his war on marijuana with such memorable sayings as:
I don’t find much in common with prohibitionist mentalities, least of all Anslinger. Nor did the La Guardia Commission, or other later studies agree with his fear mongering claims.
My mindset is closer to William F. Buckley
Abraham Lincoln
George Washington
Ronald Reagan
And most certainly, the general philosophy of Friedrich Nietzche, 19th Century German philospher
Marijuana is on a lower par for individual risk than cigarettes and alcohol. Additionally, unlike the aforementioned, more closely mirrors the human body’s natural instincts to acclimate to memories of pain, control the nervous system, and potentially lead to some break out advances in cancer research. But it’s a plant that offers far more than pharmaceutical possibilities with it’s other industrial uses.
As far as getting high? Humans have voluntarily chosen to alter their perception as long as we’ve been around as a species. Every one dictates their own urges as to how often, and how far they take that urge. Marijuana is not physically addictive. However mental addictions can happen… and not just with marijuana.
Social dictates, with some attempting to legislate the morality of others, gave us alcohol prohibition… an utter failure. Some choose to ignore history, and are doomed to repeat it.
@MataHarley: #62,
The great irony here is the fact that marijuana prohibition was in large part due to its having been officially declared a Poison. Special interests lied. Marijuana is not a poison and can have positive effects on the body’s chemistry set. On the other hand, alcohol can be denounced as a toxin.
We all have diverse chemical makeups, and have different reactions to the 500 canabinoids. Some are positive, some not so much. That’s why the doors should be opened wide into the possibilities, and research will provide intelligence into the where, what and how of different variation benefits. For now senseless hurdles such as “it’s a gateway drug” are holding up the advances and infinite advantages which it can deliver.
MataHarley
this is very interesting, and an old herb like that one is now, only now is serving the right PEOPLE,
AND i would think at a fraction of the cost, how come we miss on that one,
maybe the competition of the the makers of other medication did the blockage of this becoming the wonder healer,
thank you for this incredible new discovery, she that herb was hurting the young who where using it without restraint and getting messed up because of it,
now is on the right place for healing instead, great news great advance of knowledge,
I WONDER WHAT OUR GREAT RESEARCHER, OPENID WOULD THINK OF THIS ONE,
WE HAVEN’T HEARD FROM HIM IN A LONG TIME, HOPE HE AND HIS LOVED ONES ARE OKAY,
BEST TO YOU,
MataHarley
my sister neighbor had the removal of the two breast, and had pills to speed up the healing which where costing 100 dollar each, that was beside the pain killer pills also very costly for one year,
it would both have done the two jobs if she had been given that marihuana concoction,
I’m also thinking of MICHAEL JACKSON WHO WAS TAKING ALL KINDS OF PAINKILLER AND CALMING MEDICATION, HE MIGHT BE STILL ALIVE TODAY ON ONLY THAT HERB,
BYE
@James Raider, one of the more interesting details I picked up from that documentary – and that I was unaware of – was that the Israeli’s are leading the pack on using cannabis for medical purposes, and distributes over 880 lbs monthly to more than 10,000 recipients. The Israeli Health Ministry has official growers and distributors.
This gentleman, Moshe Rute, a holocaust survivor, was another one of the medical cases in the Gupta documentary, “Weed”. After a stroke, he nearly lost the use of his hands, the shaking was so bad. And shortly after he lost his wife, he then became further debilitated with recurring nightmares in concentration camps. With his cannabis use, his shaking is more controllable, and he can sleep. While recreational use of cannabis is illegal in Israel, their use of it as a medicinal alternative has been in place since 1990, and is only growing more influential in treatment.
In the US… well, it’s sort of a sad timeline. Speaking of timelines, this is one of the more complete ones I’ve seen of efforts, lawsuits, etc. The resistance is, as you point out, coming from the DEA, who refuses to recognize studies. This despite that even the AMA said that it was worthy of review, and recommended that it can be well served by reviewing/removing it as a Scheduled drug back in 2009. Since there has only been about 20 short duration studies in the past 35 years, the govt says there is not enough scientific evidence to support it’s medicinal properties.
In fact, the most recent US Appellate Court rejection of the petition to reclassify the drug with the DEA ruled in favor of the feds because they agreed with their argument that “‘adequate and well-controlled studies’ on the medical efficacy of marijuana do not exist.”
Then again, people like Anslinger were attempting to quash early AMA studies since many were contradicting his “reefer madness” mentality. Add the fact that researchers had to be careful that they could protect their study subjects from DEA enforcement not helping matters. It was rumored that Anslinger was influenced by both Wm Randolph Hearst and Dupont since their patents on plastics, paper and paints would become worthless with the more cost effective alternative of hemp oil and byproducts. The same is true today for recompense for the expensive R&D on drugs and patents.
The DEA’s response to those creating synthetic cannabis for use was to add them to their drug schedule for enforcement.
Not much has changed… for the feds, it’s still about finances and cushy budgets. And they are happy to enlist social conservatives to spread the immorality message of it all to aid their case. However if I have the count right, there’s about 17 States now with various medical marijuana laws. Fed DEA operations leave the small potato types alone, and only go after the large scale operations in these states. This certainly precludes cultivation for other industrial purposes. As a matter of fact, Anslinger boasts of using some of the New Deal WPA workers still around to wipe out old settler fields of cannabis along 60 miles of the Potomac.
At some point, there will be a 10th Amendment showdown over this. But for now, the states are simply ignoring the feds and going their own way.
@ilovebeeswarzone, the youth weren’t “getting messed up” by smoking marijuana. Certainly what mischief and abuse was overshadowed by alcohol use. Honestly, this “reefer madness”/Anslinger depiction of marijuana users and it’s effects still makes me laugh. But addictive personalities will always have a problem with any type of substance abuse. As I said, there are two types of addiction. A physical addiction that can result in physical withdrawal symptoms (i.e. the DTs), and a mental addiction where it’s a psychological desire and effect.
Cannabis doesn’t have the physical withdrawal symptoms, but government and non profit “marijuana rehab” facilities are big business. You don’t want to get in the way of them making money, and getting government money. Each has their own reason for keeping the status quo for drug classification, and it usually revolves around financial gain.
As I said, the smoking of the evil weed has been a part of human culture for a very long time, just as alcohol has. It’s one of the most popular illicit drugs used, according to the fear mongering govt, with 39% of the population having tried it at least once. I’d say that there is more, but what person would want to admit smoking to a pollster working for the government, right?
But if your neighbor’s sister was a cancer survivor, and double mastectomy, she could very well benefit from the use of cannabis. Most of the cancer patients I personally know use it to stimulate their appetite, which has been virtually destroyed by either, or both, chemo and radiation treatments. It also controls their nausea. However getting typical AMA type doctors to prescribe this as an alternative is difficult. Just as you won’t find them recommending chiropractors as more non intrusive, drug free solution either. It’s all about power plays.
Legalization has it’s own problems… the government then controls and taxes it, driving the prices up. So what is actually an inexpensive product, easily affordable compared to synthetic drugs, then becomes more expensive – thwarting one of the benefits. Decriminalization can control the costs for those to grow their own.
@MataHarley: #66,
Excellent Timeline link . . .
How very progressive of Massachusetts to have been the first State in the Union to have banned cannabis in 1911.
While important, that is the biggest roadblock and is the wrong road to travel toward legalization, IMHO. There are upwards of 500 cannabinoids which would require decades of analysis and evidence to convince the narrow minds, if ever.
I would stick to arguing on the distribution/growth end of the argument- like getting rid of the pusher. The pusher is the most powerful force pushing users up the drug strength line. That he exists means anyone looking for cannabis is pushed by the government to approach the pusher. That event is fraught with endless ‘downsides’ for the buyer and for society generally.
The “War On Drugs” is a multi-billion dollar industry which includes enormous sectors of entrenched government bureaucracies. The strategy makes no sense to me.
SUGGESTIONS:
I would allow anyone to grow up to 5 marijuana plants. Enough for fertilization. Enough for personal use. Not enough to build an empire. Keeps prices very low. If you want to grow an acre, get a license and get taxed. Hemp is another topic.
I would encourage licensed labs which would test marijuana – strength, varying cannabinoid levels, etc., providing a “content” description, and a “seal of good housekeeping” approval.
BTW, I’m still puzzled as to how Washington (State) managed to legalize cannabis, but good for them.
MataHarley
where I live I often hear of some people are arrested for having some of those plants
in their garden, some are growing it to sell, other to use personally,
and yet they are arrested just for growing it,
the story always has been that it’s addictive to use it and affect the brain,
we can see the behavior of one addicted change, they have nightmare awake,
my nephew thought he could jump out of the 4rth floor and survive one day, i was there to see,
he could argue with another to the point of wanting to beat him,
it surely alter the brain somewhere,
I SAW 2 YOUNG GIRLS ONE DAY AFTER THEY CAME BACK FROM A DRUG PARTY,
MY FRIEND DAUGHTERS, AND WE WENT TO GET THEM OUT, i WAS SCARE INSIDE THAT DANCE FLOOR, ANYWAY THEY LOOK AT ME AND I SAW THE BLACK CIRCLE IN THEIR EYES MOVE BY ITSELF LEFT TO RIGHT, IT WAS THE DRUG THEY HAD TAKEN, i DON’T KNOW HOW LONG IT STAYED THAT WAY, BUT IT WAS ANORMAL FOR SURE,
JUST TO SAY THAT IT MUST BE VIEW AS DANGEROUS DRUG IF ONE DON’T KNOW HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH TO STOP DRIVING THEIR CAR,
it’s good to learn some good property in it if the knowledge is there with it,
for therapeutic use,
Bees, marijuana is not a hallucinogenic drug.
MataHarley
then it might have been another drug,one year I bought some oriental poppies
for a change in my garden they came out beautiful,
one CHINEESE couple living close, CAME TO SEE IT,
I THOUGHT THEY ADMIRE THE FLOWERS, THEY BOTH WHERE DOCTORS,
i knew them as good neighbors, hello small chat, meeting out,
he said to me, it’s not allowed to have those poppy in your garden ,
he explain what i didn’t know where the drug come out, and i forgot the name of it,
now I know that was a couple of years ago, it’s a very powerful drug,
cocaine or heroine style,
now i learn of the vast poppy land in AFGHANISTAN THE ALQAEDA MAKE MONEY OUT OF IT.
FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD INCLUDING AMERICA,
SOMEONE MENTION THE NEW TREND IN DRUG IS HEROINE NOW.
JUST THESES LAST FEW DAYS
@MataHarley:
Good post. The destruction and waste of prosecuting and incarcerating individuals for non-violent marijuana possession is beyond calculation. The fact that certain demographics have felt the preponderance of law enforcement focus in this area has resulted in additional immeasurable societal costs, many of which bubble up in seemingly unrelated discussions relating to race, class, law enforcement, mandatory sentencing and civil rights. As much as he gets beat up around here, I hope some can at least appreciation Holder’s tentative steps the past week to begin rectifying some of the gross injustices of current mandatory sentencing laws. And I write this shaking my head about a local news item where a man the size of an ox with a record for domestic abuse against women as long as my arm stabbed to death his girlfriend in front of their daughter after having been arrested for domestic abuse two nights previous for smashing her head into a mirror. Outside of the obvious cases, we lock up all the wrong people in this country, for all the wrong reasons.
@James Raider:
This is an idea I believe has a ton of merit. You accomplish so much by allowing citizens the simple right to grow a plant, within reason. Marijuana is a reasonably simple plant to grow with the correct equipment, so you hamstring the illegal trade (and event the quasi-legal monopoly that will develop in certain states that only allow for narrow usage) by dampening the demand simply by flatting the supply chain to the consumer level. You can’t charge $100 for a quarter ounce of a plant when it’s easy to legally grow it at home.
@Tom, I don’t have a dog in the marijuana hunt, I am retired from law enforcement and allergic to it both in its raw form and smoke. That said, I agree with decriminalization and early releases of people incarcerated long term on what wouldn’t amount to severe charges now. BUT, and it’s a big but, I have no illusions at all about the timing of Holders “big announcement”. The Obama Regime, which Holder holds a very strong and active position in, is throwing this out there as a distraction from all the other scandals, the action in Egypt and most likely some other scurrilous activity we just haven’t heard about. Oh and I don’t think Holder and Obama can just decide what laws to enforce and what not to enforce legally, in fact I have a lot of questions about the legality of a lot of things this Regime has done.
@Scott in Oklahoma:
Scott, it sounds like anything that Holder did this past week, or any other, would be viewed by you as a “distraction”. Fair enough, if that’s how you feel, but it certainly isn’t a focused, or very interesting, critique of Holder’s decision to pursue sentencing reform.
@ilovebeeswarzone, poppies are the base for opium… most often processed into heroin. (which is the payday crop for Afghans).
But it is also used for morphine. Highly addictive, and generally used for chronic pain management and palliative care for common legal use. Way beyond cannabis. Technically, cannabis is an herb, and like most herbs (acai berry) exhibit medicinal “drug” qualities. You’ll find it nestled in the Herb2000 website along with the other herbs starting with “c”, like caraway seed, cardamon and catnip.
Even caffeine is more “addictive” than cannabis. The Nat’l Institute on Drug Abuse did ratings of addiction back in 1994,. This “dependence” level, per their description, was based upon “How difficult it is for the user to quit, the relapse rate, the percentage of people who eventually become dependent, the rating users give their own need for the substance and the degree to which the substance will be used in the face of evidence that it causes harm.”
Both doctors involved came up with the same order of addictive qualities…. with #1 being the most serious, and #6 being the least.
1: Nicotine
2: Heroine
3: Cocaine
4: Alcohol
5: Caffeine
6: Marijuana
You might want to think about that next time you have a cup of coffee or a cocktail, eh? You’re indulging in a substance with more addiction risk than cannabis. So if you’re looking for flying pink elephants while under the influence, you might have better luck with with that while on alcohol.
@James Raider and @Tom, the five plant rule may prove problematic for medicinal users. For example, the District of Columbia medical cannabis allows for possessing only 2 oz per month – one of the lowest amounts. In Oregon, it’s 24 oz and six mature plants. In California, their Supreme Court struck down any limits placed by law, saying it was an unconstitutional amendment of the voter initiative. Differs from state to state.
But you have to consider the harvest periods involved, and whether you are starting from seeds or seedlings.
An average plant yield is generally around half an oz. But you have grow time, ranging from 8 to 10 weeks, then drying/processing before it can be used. Five plants would result in approx 3 oz, which would have to last the consumer for the 10-12 weeks before another crop is harvested. So there would have to be a staggering of plants vs harvested possession to accommodate for growing while you have a ready supply on hand.
Depending on the nature of the usage, as well as perhaps how many in a household that are card holders, it’s a tough call on what limits work. Also, some people combine their resources and grow in only one larger indoor room location for several card holders – each sharing harvest expenses. This is quite common in California. So the designated grower for the rest of the card holders would need to have “x” amount of plants for the combined patients.
Thus why California had marijuana dispensaries… where people could go to purchase what they wanted after showing their card. In Oregon, the dispensaries are illegal, and you cannot “buy” medical marijuana. You have to grow your own… or have a “primary caregiver” grow it for you. In fact, in Oregon, doctors are not allowed to “prescribe” marijuana. They have to sign a form stating you have a debilitating condition, and that cannabis use “may” alleviate that condition or it’s effects.
@another vet: #61
Sorry. My mistake.
@Tom: I really believe Holder should be sitting prison Tom, or maybe he should be out by now as a convicted felon. Not arbitrarily making decisions about which part of which law our government should or should not enforce. That is my critique of his position, I find it interesting that he has your support despite his past illegal actions; says a lot about your principles.
MataHarley
that is very interesting to learn,all this information is priceless,
specially for the one who are offered those potent plants from other,
my beautiful poppies where sold as seed and young potted plants
with the image of that beautiful flower on the small pot or envelope
hard to resist, that in a big garden center where everybody come to buy
anything else with their children looking up all over the other corners selling meat and vegetable also,
which many unknown addictive plants are sold,
why are we suppose to know about which is addictive and which is banned,
we don’t have any clue about it like i was in the same group, I buy plants every year and just look at what inspire me and try new plant to learn them,
last two years I bought one name wild sage, she really came out big and beautiful,
and I learn later that she had some of the same addictive character as other,
it surprise me to see those garden center selling it to anyone with only the name and picture on it,
and there’s more to be dangerous for our dog, which we don’t know unless we get a book on it,
bye
thank you for that precious info,
@James Raider:
Something like that would be very difficult to control. Unlike moonshining which requires more resources like equipment which can be detected more easily should someone produce more than what they are supposed to, this only requires a seed. If getting government out of people’s personal lives and allowing them to get “high” by whichever way they choose is one of the goals, then it would best to legalize it period or else it’ll be no different than regulating the number of monthly gun purchases someone can make or the number of cases of beer someone can have in their house.
I’ve never smoked pot and never will but know plenty of people who have. Most ended up graduating to something heavier usually coke. The only person I knew who smoked pot for medicinal purposes did so because he had glaucoma and supposedly smoking pot would remedy the situation. Needless to say, it didn’t. It was just a convenient excuse to find another way of getting stoned in addition to drinking which when you cut to the chase, is the reason most people want it legalized. Medical benefits really aren’t the priority.
I think if we consider legalizing marijuana, we may as well consider legalizing harder drugs as well since legalizing the former will increase the probability someone is going to graduate to the latter. It’s like a bait and hook.
@MataHarley: #75,
Agreed. I should have been clearer. By “Five plants” I am suggesting a small enough number of plants that the growth operation is well short of building a business based on cannabis. At some size whether it’s 10 or 20, you get into taxland. Government intrusion with taxation is an inevitability through licensing, sales taxes/tax deductions, etc. One principal objective is to bring the whole out into the open. Clean up the business. Get rid of the enormous amount of ‘spiking’ which occurs to get users hooked on drugs such as heroin and cocaine. Allow it to become a viable “industry” enabling serious research into the vast medicinal and historically recognized benefits. Encourage financing of labs to test the products. A few people merging resources to grow small numbers of plants for personal use should be left alone.
AND, let Hemp farms sprout everywhere.
Everything else in the “drug trade” parade of merchandise pales in comparison to usefulness.
And BTW, I am not a smoker – not cigarettes, not marijuana. But, I see no common sense in the policies which attempt to govern illicit drugs. What I DO see, is the build-up of multi-billion dollar empires in the hands of gangs and thugs across the U.S. and across Canada.
@another vet: #79,
1. Legalization is the best method for eliminating the pusher. That would go a long way toward reducing the wealth and power of criminal organizations which have deeply insinuated themselves into all levels of our society.
2. If you are left alone with your marijuana, you don’t graduate to harder drugs. The Pusher leads you there. You don’t go there yourself. Pushers are good at what they do and their methods are pervasive and effective. Most marijuana smokers never touch a harder drug. Obviously, there are always some who are self-destructive, looking for escape and some get addicted to anything, but for the most part, if you do some research as well as dig anecdotal evidence, people do not “graduate” to hard drugs from marijuana – that is a sad over-used fallacy we’ve all heard for years to influence those who don’t take the time to dig into facts. We’ve been fed that one ad nauseam. A little like Obama saying, “I won’t rest until . . . . “ 🙂 Yah, ad nauseam – and some believe.
@MataHarley:
Agreed on all points. Whatever the exact number of plants is, I think the key thing is that you want to separate the medical issue from the non-medical issue. I think the problem with the California method is that it’s defacto legalization via the medical marijuana system. That opens it up to attack from those opposed to marijuana in all circumstances, as well as to corruption, since you’re talking about selling a high-demand, controlled cash crop under those auspices, so the pressure to bend the rules and increase sales is enormous. I agree we need real, controlled medical marijuana access at licensed dispensaries, with real doctors controlling that access. But to make it work, at the very least you need decriminalization, otherwise that same pressure for non-medical access is brought to bear, and where you draw the line could either hurt legitimate patients, or open the program to exploitation. You are, after all, creating a monopoly of sorts. There are many ways to do decriminalization, but I’ve always liked the idea of letting people grow their own as one partial solution. If you liken it to home brewing, it’s not going to put Budweiser out of business, but if Budweiser cost $50 a six pack, guess what, a lot more people would be home-brewing and Budweiser’s sales would be plummeting. I think this is one way to remove the criminal element, and really all you’re doing is allowing people to grow a naturally occurring plant on their own private property for their own personal consumption.
@Scott in Oklahoma:
Holder has not been indicted or convicted of breaking any laws to my knowledge. I think that fact stands in stark contrast to your unproven assertion, you being a complete stranger to me, someone on the internet who offers nothing but an opinion. I also find your logic very odd, that by agreeing with Eric Holder on any particular topic, it means I have no principles. If Eric Holder says we should hunt down and destroy Al Queda, does that mean he doesn’t have your support? Is that your idea of what being a principled person is, disagreeing with everything Eric Holder says?
@James Raider:
I agree that most people who used marijuana don’t gravitate to harder drugs, but most people who use hard drugs started with marijuana.
http://marijuanaaddictiontreatment.org/statistics-facts.html
I know the pro marijuana sites claim there is no gateway effect but research seems to be at best inconclusive. This study didn’t disprove the gateway effect, it only offered a possible alternative explanation.
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_briefs/2005/RB6010.pdf
AV, actually most people using harder drugs started with alcohol before marijuana. Others with cigarettes/nicotine. Many with both.
@Tom: It’s pretty easy to not get indicted or convicted when you are the head of the organization that would do that. When Congress censured Holder, the criminal investigation of his actions was assigned to a person who reports to…. Holder. Gee. I cannot find myself supporting without suspicion anything Eric Holder says or does, a look at his history says to me he is a bad guy. And those who support and align themselves with bad guys deserve the same label.
It is not Holder’s job to hunt down and destroy Al Qaeda, to claim that is to believe terrorist attacks are criminal violations, not acts of war. Was the attack on the USS Cole just a crime? September 11th, 2001? Was Ft. Hood just “workplace violence”? There are many examples of terror attacks; I suppose if you consider them just crimes then you would believe Holder would be the responsible party. The Attorney General doesn’t have anything to do with waging war on our enemies, so I couldn’t very well support Holder in an act outside of the scope of his authority. Nice try, playing the “oh…. so you support terrorism card”, but that dog doesn’t hunt.
As for your principles, since we don’t know each other, you wouldn’t understand that I wasn’t saying you didn’t have any, what I did say (or mean) is you give slack when none is deserved, my principles don’t allow for that. Maybe I have a character flaw…. naw, just believe in being honest, and doing my best not to support people who are far less than honest.
A current problem is that in many states which have opted to allow medical marijuana, those opposing it have managed to influence related legislation in ways calculated make the experiment a failure.
Witness New Jersey, for example, where an exception had to be granted by the governor to make a usable mode of cannabis administration available to a child. New Jersey opponents of medical marijuana contrived to limit the modes of administration. The child would have been limited to administration by smoking, which is absurd, via a lozenge—which represented a serious choking hazard to two-year-old with a seizure disorder—or in the form of an ineffective lotion.
The New Jersey child suffers from the same uncontrollable seizure disorder that the Colorado child in Dr. Gupta’s documentary has.
By the way, I know from the experiences of a close friend how effective marijuana can be in cancer treatment. My friend had terminal cancer. The nausea, vomiting, weight loss, and pain that accompanied her chemotherapy were brutal. Marijuana alleviated all of that, allowing her to get through her treatments and making her quality of life during her final year much better. The difference between the before and after with respect to marijuana was dramatic. She lived in Ontario, so her doctor simply wrote her a prescription.
She had tried Marinol, a synthetic drug intended to act like marijuana, early in her chemo. Marinol didn’t work as effectively, and cost the Canadian healthcare system $100 per dose.
Greg
thank you for your story,
the medecine they prescribed must be the same one that other woman took,
at 100 dollar per pill,
@another vet: #84,
Don’t think so.
1) Research ignores the powerful and persuasive Pusher hierarchy which is a creation of government intervention.
2) Addiction to hard drugs starts with Addiction which usually means grabbing readily available alcohol, then up the addictive drug line they go. That, for the most part, leaves out marijuana.
As to roots of Addiction – that’s another discussion.
Hard drug users aren’t the real source of the problem – Pushers are. Rehab, incarceration, pandering, etc. are a waste of energy and money addressing the users, and they won’t stop the growth of this blight on society.
We even pander to the pushers with ever more lenient punishment. If you’re caught pushing, you might as well have killed someone – you should be going away for life.
@Scott in Oklahoma:
Think you missed my point. Please explain to me again how my supporting Eric Holder’s stance on minimum sentencing means I have “no principles”. That’s a remarkably bizarre thing to say, that I need to hold the opposite view from Eric Holder or I don’t pass your test. Are you actually telling me that you refuse to support any measure that Eric Holder supports, just because Eric Holder supports it? Because that is precisely the standard you are holding me to.
@MataHarley: and James Raider
Per both studies, marijuana users are far more likely to resort to hard drug use than non users and the greater the frequency of marijuana use the higher the probability of hard drug use later. It’s not a cause-effect relationship but there is some sort of a connection or else there wouldn’t be such a large difference between users and non-users (who would obviously include both drinkers and cigarette smokers).
James- I agree with pushers being a problem and concur with your push for stiff penalties especially for those pushing drugs to kids. However, to alleviate the user from any responsibility is like saying people have no control over the choices they make. It’s like what came first, the chicken or the egg. In this case, what came first, the pusher or the user? The illegal drug trade is simple supply and demand and in this country there is a high demand for those drugs. If the users didn’t want them, there would be no market or at least a lot smaller one.
The idea presented here once before (by peterbat I believe) about legalizing drugs and establishing drug clinics where people could check themselves in and get all the drugs they want is actually quite a sound one. It’ll take business away from the pushers and let the users take whatever drugs they want. If they OD, it’s their choice. No need for rehab or incarceration. People need to start being responsible for their own actions and not just with drugs.
@another vet, #84:
Most people who use hard drugs are also very likely to have previously used beer. This doesn’t suggest a “started with” relationship.
What it most likely means is that people having addiction-prone personalities are far more likely to experiment with a variety of psychoactive substances. They will usually have experimented with the most readily available substances first.
@Tom: Why don’t you go back and read what I actually wrote, and you quoted back to me? I didn’t say you have no principles, I said your support of Holder says a lot about your principles. I must be different from you in my thought processes; I write like I speak, and when I do write (or speak) I say what I mean and mean what I say. I don’t sugar coat or bury hidden meanings in my conversations, either face to face or on-line.
With your unqualified support of Holder, it appears you are willing to put your political stance in front of your principles (should you have principles like mine, believing first and foremost in honesty and integrity); funny thing I have noticed about liberals, they tend to read into what people say, often missing the meaning completely while trying to interpret something that has all of its meaning right on the face of the conversation. As I said from the beginning of this conversation, I am for decriminalization and reduced sentence for a lot of drug offenders, but I am very suspicious of the timing of the announcement.
@another vet: #91,
Umm, no, pushing drugs on kids shouldn’t just get stiffer penalties, it should be a guarantee of receiving the death penalty.
Come now, there nothing in what I wrote which would lead you think that I relieve users from responsibility for their actions. I am viewing this from the broader societal perspective and stating my opinion on solutions different from those that have been tried and failed.
Users are responsible for their actions. Nevertheless, pushers are responsible for creating tens of millions of users. Just like pimps are responsible for “creating” millions of prostitutes – they capture women, force-inject them with drugs, get them addicted, then a month or two later put them on the street. Not all prostitutes get there this way, but a great many do. Yes they are responsible for their actions, but damn, they sure didn’t ask for drug addiction and subservience.
Pushers create markets where often, none exist. The incentives are too high. And not every pusher is a hoody-wearing street-scraping scumbag. Friends become pushers. Many a user’s best friend provided him/her with the first coke high. Where there’s money to be made, narcissism always thinks of number one.
@James Raider:
No argument there even if it’s legalized.
I probably misinterpreted what you meant when you said this taking it as though you weren’t putting any responsibility on them (which would have seemed out of character for you):
I think that comes back down to what a few of us have been saying… personalities that are susceptible to “addictions” despite what they start on. Which is why I keep coming back to the “other” legal “addictive” substances… alcohol, nicotine etc. When a study wants to simply confine it to only scheduled drugs, they miss the obvious.
i.e. a 1994 study by Columbia’s Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse found that 12-17 yr olds who use the “gateway” drugs – tobacco, alcohol and marijuana – are more likely to use cocaine than those that didn’t. Well duh, Mr. Researcher… LOL If a body is inclined to experiment with mood altering stimuli, of course they would be more likely to continue their experimentation than one who never wanted to at all. Caffeine/sugar addicts like their Starbucks lifts. Same with those taking these afternoon power drinks. Everyone seems to like the effect of what they consume, or they don’t consume.
But one can’t single out cannabis as being that tipping factor. Nor would it be a prudent move to criminalize tobacco or alcohol either. Been there, done that for one of those.
As you say, it’s not really a causal factor because they started using one “drug” before another. But I believe the connection lies not in the choice of alcohol, cannabis or tobacco, but the fact that they choose to experiment at all. But then, that’s not an uncommon thing in human behavior. Nor does it mean they will become, and remain, over the edge drunks or addicted drug users. There’s no shortage of well known people (and not so well known) that have used various drugs over their lives, and were still productive taxpayers and creative humans.
But while we’re on it, we can probably expect alcohol use to go up, as it usually does during down economic times. It’s an “escape” for many.
@Greg:
My own personal experience goes hand in hand with this:
@MataHarley:
I agree. It goes back to my comment about us being a society where there is a high demand for drugs and I’ll even include sugar and caffeine in there for good measure. People who talk about needing their “fix” of coffee in the morning in order to get going have a dependency issue as well. People want instant gratification.
@MataHarley:
The economy is booming so that won’t be an issue. : )
@James Raider: #80
I have a suggestion to end the drug problem. Pick a city who’s citizens vote for the trial. The citizens in that city would be allowed to use ANY drug they want. They would get them at a pharmacy. There would be a list of drugs, and what effect they can have, and some would have a list of things the user can’t do. Some of the things would be, drive, run machinery, assemble in a group of ?? people, etc. Employers would be allowed to check any employee for drugs at any time, as long as it is on company time. The employer can still do random drug testing. There would be MANDATORY sentences for any drug crimes. No parole.
Anyone who wants to use drugs, can. They will pay sales taxes on them, and the drug lords won’t make anything off of the drugs. If the experiment works OK in this city, then it can be expanded.
One way the pimps keep their hookers is they get the women hooked on drugs, and the woman has to keep coming back to him to get her drugs. Others who get hooked on drugs rob people to get money for the drugs.
When children who are tempted to use a certain drug, reads the warnings, and sees what they CAN’T do, they might not want to try it. Making something illegal sometimes just makes people want to try it, just because it is illegal.
If there is a god, and if he is looking down on the Earth, he has to be thinking: “Why did I create humans? The planet would be better off without them.”