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@Tom:

I’m clearly discussing the conversation contained in this thread.

Where, in this statement “

If someone claimed there was “hidden white racism” afoot, I certainly missed it

” did you make that clear and make it exclusive to this thread only?

I never wrote that the concerns of white/Asian/Hispanic parents are different. I wrote that it is logical for black parents to react to data that affects black children.

When you isolate one group (black parents/black children) you do so to the exclusion of other groups.

You’re either operating at a very low cognitive level, or you think you’re cleverly twisting what I’ve written.

No twisting. Simply responding to your EXACT words. Perhaps it is you who operates from a low cognitive level since you can’t seem to make your statements clear and precise.

@Tom: Consider yourself educated. And your copy is rather stilted, anything but quality. If you are ready for writers coaching, let me know.

HOLDER WANT TO CHANGE THE LAW OF STAND YOUR GROUND,
why’s that,is it because it work for a WHITE MAN?
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN HAD NO RETREAT, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILL,
SO TO PLEASE THE BLACKS?
ARE YOU KIDDING?AND WHAT ABOUT THE BLACKS WHO BEAT THE WAR HERO,
HE HAD NO WAY TO RETREAT, AND ALMOST DYE FROM HIS WOUNDS, TO PLEASE THE BLACKS?
ARE YOU KIDDING? DOES A WHITE HAVE TO BE UNCONCIOUS TO HAVE HOLDER’S LAW APPLY?
THAT WHITE WOMAN THROWN OUT OF THE 3RD FLOOR WINDOW BY TWO BLACKS,
WAS SHE ABLE TO PROTECT HERSELF? ARE YOU KIDDING,
AND THE TOURIST ON HIS ARRIVAL WAS BEATEN UNCONSCIOUS ,WAS HE WARN BEFORE IT HAPPEN,
SO TO DEFEND HIMSELF BEFORE IT HAPPEN? AND RUN AS FAST AS HE CAN, ARE YOU KIDDING?
SO YOUR SPEECH IS A BUNCH OF CRAP, GO TEACH THOSE LITTLE CRIMINALS TO NOT ATTACK
THE GOOD PEOPLE WHIT OR BLACK OR THEY WILL GO TO PRISON, THAT IS JUSTICE YOU HAVEN’T DONE IT SO YOU ARE TO BLAME FOR THE SONS OF OBAMA, SHARPTON SAY THE WAR IS NOT FINISH, SO YOU ARE IN WAR IS IT AGAINST AMERICAN? WE MUST PREPARE TO FIGHT YOUR WAR YOU WAGE AGAINST AMERICANS

HE could have ask why the people don’t trust the young blacks, maybe they would answered,
we don’t know who is taking drugs,, who will attack me to buy drug with my purse,
who will beat me here alone with 3 or more of blacks in this lone place,
how can I JUDGE THE GOOD AND THE BAD, THE HATERS AND THOSE WHO HAS EVOLVED??????
TELL US.

@Wordsmith:

I don’t doubt some of that still happens. But I don’t believe it’s as “epidemic” or latent as some believe.

I cringed when he tried to get through that. I’m a big guy, 6’2″ and about 250. And I where sunglasses all the time. My eyes are light sensitive from a bottle rocket war accident I had when young and not too sober. If I’m about to get on an elevator with no one else but a lady, regardless of color, I remove my sunglasses and smile. You can almost see the relief.
I’m with you, I’m sure it happens sometimes, but I don’t think it’s typical. And the President is right, things are better. My kids have no sense of color. And I believe that is a good thing.

An

other way of saying that is Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago.

President Obama

So Trayvon Martin had two white grandparents and went to a tony hoale prep school?

Who knew?

@Aqua: Aqua and Word We can’t say it’s not true–we don’t know.
Bees You’re an example of what he’s talking about.

Richard Wheeler
I think I got it figured,
the problem is we look at the clothes they are wearing, and it tell us they are outcast of the society,
but some can fool us by wearing the society clothes, and it’s those who are hidden and behave like angels,
just like a spider with a beautiful piece of art the toile [that’s french] for lack of the ENGLISH word,
and when you get close it’s to late to go back,
or you have a gun or you die,
yesterday I notice a spider tread just one it was 8 feet wide,
just where the hummingbirds drink the nectar I provide them,
if they would have barely touch that sticky thread they where caught

@Richard Wheeler:

We can’t say it’s not true–we don’t know.

What’s not true? Are you saying that when Barack Obama was 17, going to a tony prep school and being part of the majority at the time in Hawaii (hoales were the minority then) that he was “profiled” which is what he is saying without saying the word “profiled?” Is Obama saying that at 17 he was sporting tattoos and a gold grill and trying to buy a gun? Or is he admitting that he thinks Trayvon Martin was part of a “choom” gang?

Why is Obama fanning the flames of racial strife? Why doesn’t he just shut the hell up and not pump black Americans into a frenzy that will surely come if he doesn’t? Does he think that when it comes to pumping up the racial division that Al Sharpton is not up to the job?

Our white Kenyan president needs to realize that he is the president of ALL the people, not just Eric Holder’s people.

@Richard Wheeler:

Much wisdom in your comment, Rich. We don’t know. What I find remarkable about Obama’s statement is, here we have a sitting US President who is in the unique position of being able, from first-hand experience, to attempt to illustrate how African Americans feel, a feeling that;s likely impossible for those of us who don’t experience to know. Even ten years ago, this speech would be inconceivable. As to Bees comment, I’ve been told multiple times on this very thread that I’m an ignorant racist for even suggesting that her mindset still exists.

I would like to point out one thing the President said that I think is important:

I think the African-American community is also not naive in understanding that statistically somebody like Trayvon Martin was probably statistically more likely to be shot by a peer than he was by somebody else.

I’ve read a lot on this blog and elsewhere how the reaction to the TM situation is all about blacks trying to blame whites for TM death when “Chicago” etc. As the President acknowledges here, that’s never been what it’s about, about “blaming whitey”. I believe the President is articulating what I’d call the ‘mainstream’ African American sentiment on this issue, which uses the GZ/TM incident as a jumping off point, as a symbol. The fact that a self-searching and complex position exists at all is only a surprise, I suspect, to people who are buying into the idea that the “King Samir Shabazz”‘s of the world hold sway over, and speak for, African American people as a whole.

@Wordsmith:

And I’m sorry, but I have a really hard time believing that President Obama isn’t exaggerating his experiences to make a political point here.

I’m curious what you think the political point is. Please share your thoughts, if you care to elaborate.

Tom
don’t pretend to know my mindset,
it has multiple little pieces of WISDOM,
which I picked up from so many other brains of sound people,
and cherich in my memory, using one or the other as the need appear,
you would n’t know what I’m talking about,

@ilovebeeswarzone:

I’m not pretending to know your mindset: you articulated it just fine. Furthermore, I’m judging it. I’m just sick of people telling me it doesn’t exist. What do you think Obama was addressing when he said, “Now, this isn’t to say that the African-American community is naive about the fact that African-American young men are disproportionately involved in the criminal justice system, that they are disproportionately both victims and perpetrators of violence.”?

He’s granting you your reasons for your thinking. What he’s asking of you is that you go one step further and “interpret the reasons for that in a historical context”.

@ilovebeeswarzone: @retire05: Reto5 Padon moi. You know all grande dame.Why would anyone question your ability to read all others motives? You oughta work in a carny.
Bees You can bee her shill.lol
Semper Fi

@Wordsmith: Thanks for your studied response. I’m off to the fair and will read and respond tomorrow. RJW

@Wordsmith:

First of all, there’s no reason to assume he’s talking about his time in Hawaii as a youth. He specifically says he’s describing the experiences of “African-American men”. As a young man, Obama spent time in New York, Boston, Chicago. Is it that hard to believe he ever experience what he speaks of there? Furthermore, I think it’s completely irrelevant. Why is it important whether Barack Obama really experienced all these things X amount of times? He’s articulating something that African-Americans as a whole feel needs to be articulated. If you think it’s misleading that anyone experience these issues, perhaps you’re right. But if what he describes actually does happen every day, and couching it in those terms makes it all the more effectively delivered as vehicle of empathy, I think it’s silly to miss his entire point to pick apart his biography. Another round of Obama is “other”. There are blacks who have waited their entire lives to hear a person in a position of power speak about about something like this.

Wordsmith
you are great, thank you for that.

@Tom:

First of all, there’s no reason to assume he’s talking about his time in Hawaii as a youth. He specifically says he’s describing the experiences of “African-American men”. As a young man, Obama spent time in New York, Boston, Chicago.

At age 17, unlike Trayvon Martin, Obama was going to a very expensive prep school in Hawaii with kids whose families were quite well off. He didn’t have ANY experiences like what you are trying to credit him with, unless you want to relate it to drug use. At 18, he was going to the very expensive Occidental College. Not filming MMA fights.

Is it that hard to believe he ever experience what he speaks of there?

Wait a minute…… how many times have blacks said that another person, of any color, cannot relate to the ghetto kid if they themselves haven’t experienced being a ghetto kid? So now you’re saying that although Obama grew up in a upper middle class neighborhood, went to a tony prep school and later to a high dollar college, he and Trayvon Martin have loads in common?

Furthermore, I think it’s completely irrelevant.

Well, of course you do. And you will find this case much more important than the murder of Antonio Santiago.

@Wordsmith:

Those feelings of black Americans is nothing new! It’s been hammered and clubbed over the head of Americans time and time again for the past few decades. It’s why the phrase “white guilt” has been coined. We, as Americans of our generation, have had no relief from being made to feel guilt over slavery, manifest destiny, Native-American “genocide”, and American imperialism.

What should an honest national dialogue look like? Telling white America once again how we are a racist nation? That blacks and minorities are still being held down due to “institutionalized” racism, operating on a subconscious level? I believe more than anything else that what keeps racism and division alive is this chip on the shoulder that some people have on perceived as well as actual injustices.

This is where a speech like this is doomed to failure. There’s absolutely nothing in the text to support that he’s driving home a “white guilt” narrative, but if we’re already dogmatic on the topic, we can’t help but fill in the gaps (myself included). We’re probably lost causes, but maybe there are people out there who aren’t dug into their respective positions on this and might receive the speech in a way that we can’t, and be able to sift through the issues raised with a fresh perspective.

@Tom:

Obama wrote in Dreams:

“Her lips pursed with irritation. ‘He was very aggressive, Barry. Very aggressive. I gave him a dollar and he kept asking. If the bus hadn’t come, I think he might have hit me over the head.”

So why didn’t Obama’s lefty grandfather want to drive his own wife to work? Because to help his wife avoid the hostile, dangerous panhandler would be morally wrong, because the potential mugger was … Well, I’ll let Sen. Obama tell the story:

“He turned around and I saw that he was shaking. ‘It is a big deal. It’s a big deal to me. She’s been bothered by men before. You know why she’s so scared this time. I’ll tell you why. Before you came in, she told me the fella was black.’ He whispered the word. ‘That’s the real reason why she’s bothered. And I just don’t think that right.’

“The words were like a fist in my stomach, and I wobbled to regain my composure. In my steadiest voice, I told him that such an attitude bothered me, too, but reassured him that Toot’s fears would pass and that we should give her a ride in the meantime. Gramps slumped into a chair in the living room and said he was sorry he had told me. Before my eyes, he grew small and old and very sad. I put my hand on his shoulder and told him that it was all right, I understood.

“We remained like that for several minutes, in painful silence. Finally he insisted that he drive Toot after all, and I thought about my grandparents. They had sacrificed again and again for me. They had poured all their lingering hopes into my success. Never had they given me reason to doubt their love; I doubted if they ever would. And yet I knew that men who might easily have been my brothers could still inspire their rawest fear.”

But did Obama stay home and comfort his grandmother or offer to drive her to work (he had a car, she took the bus)? No, instead he drove over tosee the communist pedophile, Frank Marshall Davis, to talk with him.

“What I’m trying to tell you is, your grandma’s right to be scared. She’s at least as right as Stanley is. She understands that black people have a reason to hate. That’s just how it is. For your sake, I wish it were otherwise. But it’s not. So you might as well get used to it.”

“Frank closed his eyes. His breathing slowed until he seemed to be asleep. I thought about waking him, then decided against it and walked back to the car. The earth shook under my feet, ready to crack open at any moment. I stopped, trying to steady myself, and knew for the first time that I was utterly alone.”

You see, Obama’s grandmother, who was the sole support of both him and his worthless grandfather, had felt threatened. But being the narcissist he is, he was more concerned with his feelings than he was about his grandmother. He wasn’t so upset that his grandmother had been threatened by a panhandler, he was more upset because his grandmother had the audacity to be afraid of a black man.

You see, the crimes against black people in the United States 150 years ago make it righteous for modern day blacks to hold animus toward white people, so they think. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have become wealthy promoting that animus. But instead of being a healing factor, which Obama could do as a white Kenyan, he fans the flames of racial division, with sly and crafty words, that fool no one.

The President of the United States involved himself in what should have been a state matter. Why? He was pitting blacks against a man who had been represented, wrongly, in the media as white. Where was he when black kids, Trayvon’s age, shot to death a 13 month old half Hispanic baby sitting in a stroller? Is he intentionally trying to create racial strife in this country?

Ironic, George Zimmerman could have shot Chris Stevens to death on the streets of Benghazi and Obama would have been totally disinterested.

retire05
that’s great analyst thank you for it,

Richard Wheeler
what kind of ABSINTHE DO YOU DRINK?
ON 65 YOU FOUND THE FRENCH REVOLUTION?
VOUS AVEZ DU FRONT TOUT LE TOUR DE LA TETE
MAIS OUI VOYON DONT

@retire05:

What’s not true? Are you saying that when Barack Obama was 17, going to a tony prep school and being part of the majority at the time in Hawaii (hoales were the minority then) that he was “profiled” which is what he is saying without saying the word “profiled?”

Yes, Obama’s never been profiled. Well, except for that time you spent four years of your life profiling him as someone who wasn’t born in America.

@Tom:

Yes, Obama’s never been profiled. Well, except for that time you spent four years of your life profiling him as someone who wasn’t born in America.

Maybe you would like to provide my quote where I said that Obama was NOT born in America. Frankly, I don’t know where he was born, and at this point, it doesn’t matter. I do know that he has spent millions of $$ to avoid court cases where he would have to provide a release to the State of Hawaii for his birth certificate; I do know that when he was born, a person could get a Hawaiian birth certificate for their child born somewhere else; I do know that at that time, Hawaii had at least three different types of birth certificates. And I do know that a person doesn’t spend tons of money, and seal their records, if they have nothing to hide. Hell, we even knew Bubba Clinton’s grades. But not Obama’s. Like JFK’s infidelity and drug use, history will reveal the real Obama eventually.

So back up your claim that I said Obama was not born in America.

Barack Obama has a few things in common with Trayvon Martin; both male, both had black fathers, both druggies in their teens. That is where the similarity ends, Tom. And no amount of spin you want to put on it will change that.

Tom the bigot strikes again. He has nothing but mindless hatred to contribute and this is a prime example.
I’m not surprised that someone like him, who is guilty of the equivalent of blaming a rape victim for being raped, would say such a thing.

@Wordsmith:

It’s why the phrase “white guilt” has been coined. We, as Americans of our generation, have had no relief from being made to feel guilt over slavery, manifest destiny, Native-American “genocide”, and American imperialism.

This is just awesome.
@Tom:

This is where a speech like this is doomed to failure. There’s absolutely nothing in the text to support that he’s driving home a “white guilt” narrative, but if we’re already dogmatic on the topic, we can’t help but fill in the gaps (myself included).

Why? Why can’t that be part of the conversation. If white people can say something and another race feels it is racially insensitive, why can’t someone say something that whites feel is racially insensitive. God Himself only held three generations responsible for the sins of an ancestor. Exactly how many generations of white people are supposed to be held responsible for slavery and the Indian genocide? And since the Buffalo Soldiers are responsible to the genocide of thousands of Indians, how many generations of black folks should I hold responsible? How many generations of Native Americans should be held responsible for the massacres of innocent settlers or for their part in slavery? And the Hispanics are just as guilty as everyone else. We all have blood on our hands.
The conversation shouldn’t be about America’s past, it should be about the future.

@Aqua:

The conversation shouldn’t be about America’s past, it should be about the future.

Unfortunately, since the death of Dr. King, and the rise of the Sharpton/Jackson Just-Us brothers, that conversation has pretty much been one sided with whites being told to sit down, shut up and accept being called “racists” as a group.

@Aqua:

The conversation shouldn’t be about America’s past, it should be about the future.

Well, first of all, I fail to see where in the speech white people are blamed for anything. I see the President shining a light on black on black crime. I see him acknowledging the statistical prevalence of young black males in crimes. I see him attempting to set the expectation level regarding federal charges against GZ (i.e., that the chances are not good). I see him pleading for non-violent protests this weekend. If you could point out specifically where he’s blaming whites for the past, that would be helpful. I believe he’s trying to explain to non-blacks the mind-set of blacks in regard to these issues, the prevalence of profiling (even of the casual variety) and perhaps how the baggage of generations of oppression (for lack of a better term), impacts their views on contemporary matters. I think that’s a world away from blaming anyone.

Secondly, I agree with you sentiment, but we don’t get to the future by ignoring the present. The pertinent discussion is in regards to issues that impact young , black males today, not 200 years ago. I am not going to rehash everything I’ve written already on sentencing and prison disparities. I just fail to understand why the knee-jerk reaction on the Right is to claim no problem exists, rather than debating causes and solutions. This seems to go hand in hand with an insistence on ignoring any reasonable black voice but shining a spotlight on the Al Sharpton’s of the world. Selectively choosing outliers to argue against is just another form of avoidance.

Would you think it’s unreasonable for a black Kentuckian, for example, to have a hard time reconciling Kentucky’s racial disparities in Marijuana arrests (“Blacks were arrested for marijuana possession at six times the rate of whites in 2010“) with the fact that the Senator from the State of Kentucky (and an emerging GOP Presidential contender) has a key aid who for years was a neo-Confederate, the Chairman of pro-succession group, and who claimed to “raise[s] a personal toast every May 10 to celebrate John Wilkes Booth’s birthday.”? I don’t see how it’s constructive to dismiss black grievances and fears as just some “blame whitey” campaign to get more free stuff. I’d prefer to listen to what reasonable people have to say, look at the facts, and consider solutions. Because I suspect people are actually mainly concerned with their children’ safety and the prospects for their futures. Could you blame any parent for that?

the racist are the BLACKS, IF WE HAD DOUBTS BEFORE,
THERE IS NO DOUBT NOW,

@Tom:

I just fail to understand why the knee-jerk reaction on teh Right doesn’t seem to be to debate solutions, bur rather to claim no problem exists.

No one on the white side is claiming there is no problem. There most definitely is a problem. Black on white crime has risen 18% since Obama took the oath of office. There is a problem when ghetto blacks think nothing of shooting a 13 month old in a stroller. There is a problem with the “Knock Out” game that Obama has yet to discuss. The problem is that the “conversation” that Eric Holder and Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. want to have is one sided; they talk about white on black racism and whites are told to sit down, shut up and listen.

This seems to go hand in hand with an insistence in ignoring any reasonable black voice but shining a spotlight on Al Sharpton. Selectively choosing the outliers to argue against is just another form of avoidance.

And on the White House visitor rolls, where are those “reasonable black voices?” Do you see Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, Walter Williams, Deneen Borelli, Star Parker, Nigel Innis, Bill Cosby, Charles Barkley or Shelby Steele (who wrote an entire book on how whites, and blacks, destroyed the dream of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.) being on those visitor rolls? No, but you will see Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the head of the NBP on those rolls.

The “conversation” you seem to think should take place has been taking place for far too long. Basically, it has been “blacks were enslaved and persecuted and whites are evil, unless they pander for the black vote.”

You want a conversation? Let’s have it. Let’s talk about how Democrat policies have destroyed the black family, caused 70+% of all black children to be born (those that are not aborted) to a single mother who doesn’t have a clue where the baby daddy is or if he will help her raise their child. Let’s talk about how the drug culture, aided by the Hip-Hop crowd, has destroyed entire black neighborhoods or how black students disproportionately drop out of high school. Let’s talk about the culture of disrespect for women permeated though out rap music. Let’s talk about how thousands of white people showed up in black neighborhoods in New Orleans and towns in Mississippi to help after Katrina but not ONE black person showed up to help when West, Texas blew up.

Please, remind me again which political party continued to elect a man who was once the Grand Kleegel of the KKK.

:

I feel your frustration with the current state of race relations, and I agree that some Democratic initiatives have worsened the problem. Not surprisingly, I find that some Republican initiatives have also had the same effect, but no matter which side has had the more tragic effect on the incarceration rates of African-American males (for example), the pointing of fingers in blame solves exactly what problem? None.
Pages and pages of blame – for what?

Tom shouldn’t have asked you to debate the “causes” of race problems – he should have limited his debate to “solutions.”

You brilliantly observed that “The “conversation” you seem to think should take place has been taking place for far too long.”

But then you went on to add to your accusations against Obama and Holder a list of problems: the Democrats’ policies have destroyed the black family, the drug culture, black students drop out, women are disrespected, etc., etc.

Are you asking to be “reminded again which political party continued to elect a man who was once the Grand Kleegel of the KKK” because you think that by embarrassing your political opponents you will somehow improve race relations in the United States?

Or do you simply have no earthly idea how to fix this mess?

@George Wells:

You fail to understand where I am coming from.

I believe that the problem in the black community is the fault of both sides. For years, since Dr. King’s death, the Democrats, pandering for votes, have told us that the problems are due to racism. And for years, anyone who disagrees with that, mainly Republicans, have been cowered into the corner because they are called racists, for which there is really no answer. You see, if the right denies being racist, then they are accused of being in denial. It’s like the global warming climate change proponents that would limit our freedom with their “green” programs that call the skeptics “deniers.”

Is there any denying that LBJ’s “Great” Society eliminated the need for fathers? Uncle Sam became the baby daddy. Social programs, created by the government, ended the need for charities, old folks homes, hospitals, clinic, orphanages, all run by the churches. Government replaced family and faith. And look what we have progressed to, turning our backs on a societal system that worked for almost 250 years, making us the greatest nation on earth.

Or do you simply have no earthly idea how to fix this mess?

I am but one person, and not in a position to “fix this mess.” But if I were, I would be telling people to listen to those like Bill Cosby. I would be telling [black] men to be parents to their children, not deserting them. I would be telling women to respect themselves and not be having babies with men who will desert them and never support their children, forcing them to be taken care of off the backs of others. I would be telling blacks to marry and create strong families. I would tell them to remember the goals of the freed slaves to own land, marry and create a family that would not be torn apart, to learn to read and write and perhaps have a small business and to care for, love and educate their children. I would point out that success starts with personal responsibility. I would chastise the music industry that promotes music that degrades women, disrespects law enforcement, and encourages a drug culture. I would tell black students, nay, all students, of the heroes of the American Revolution who were black. I would try to give them people to look up to who deserve their admiration, not some NFL player who just got busted for drugs. I would tell blacks to work with law enforcement and rid their neighborhoods of the drug dealers and pimps. And I damn sure would not be blaming white people for the actions of blacks who make their own choices just as any free willed person does.

So you tell me; what is Al Sharpton/Martin families goal with all their protests? They got what they demanded. George Zimmerman was arrested, charges were brought against him and he was prosecuted. A jury of his peers found him not guilty of Murder 2/manslaughter. Our justice system worked the way it was designed. Now we have the Martin family attorneys slandering the jury; we have Al Sharpton ramping up tensions; we have the President of the United States involving himself in a state issue. And to what end? To continue to prosecute George Zimmerman claiming he violated hate laws? The FBI investigated Zimmerman, thoroughly, and found not only was he not racist, but the girl he took to his prom was black, the best friend he went into business with was black, he mentored at risk black kids and took on the entire Sanford PD for the sake of a black homeless man, Sherman Ware, who was beaten up by a white Sanford PD’s son. Odd, the Sanford NAACP backed George Zimmerman then. But not now.

If you have a family problem, the solution starts in your home, not city hall. If you want your neighborhood cleaned up, it starts with your steps and front porch, not with the State Capitol.

Someone needs to explain to me exactly what the goals of Al Sharpton/Martin family/Obama administration is. Because I damn sure don’t see what they are. Justice for Trayvon? What about justice for all the young black men who are going to wind up dead on the streets of Chicago, Detroit, Houston and Los Angeles, murdered by one of their own?

Am I angry? You betcha. I’m tired of being told by media talking heads that because I’m not black, I’m a racist. I’m tired of being told because I support our judicial system, I’m a racist. I’m tired of being responsible for the actions of others, all in the name of “equality.” All the while those who are pointing fingers are doing absolutely nothing to educate black Americans that they, and only they, are responsible for themselves and that they can have it all, the education, the jobs, the family, if they just do the few simple things that are required.

@Wordsmith:

Lot’s of excellent points. Some I don’t agree with, some I do, but all well thought out and expressed. Thank you for sharing your honest thoughts. One thing I want you to understand is that I can agree with many of your thoughts without it impacting one argument I’ve had with anyone here. I agree with all calls for personal responsibility, for fathers being there for their children, for people to focus on moving their lives forward constructively. But for me personally, the concept that anyone can pull him or herself up by his or her bootstraps doesn’t cancel out or clash with the challenge of confronting possible injustice in the application of laws or in institutions. But these aren’t mutually exclusive potential solutions. As someone on CNN said today (and I paraphrase from memory poorly), this isn’t a black solution or a white solution.

Just a general thought, not specific to you or this thread: to be completely honest with you, I find this strident need to be the victim in all of this, the victim of “reverse racism” to be embarrassing, because its victimhood, but without even a ghost of a legitimate reason. Yes, a white man can be the victim of a racist black person, but white Americans as a whole are not suffering because black people are upset a black teen was shot. The indignity and paranoid anger so many feel when Al Sharpton finds his way onto the TV, is it really commensurate with reality? Is that a better barometer of the racial climate in this country than the black people I walk by every day who’ve given me nary a frown since the verdict?

@Wordsmith:

That inner city kid who may be black, white, Latino, Asian, or whatever, should be able to admire and hold anyone up as personal role model, that one day he could grow up to be just like his hero, without any regard whatsoever with that person’s skin color.

In an ideal world, yes. But we don’t live in an ideal world. And tribalism is part of our human DNA. The trouble is that if you ask any black kid in high school who Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was, they know. Ask them how many have ever heard of Crispus Attucks, James Armistead Lafayette, Frederick Douglas, Booker T. Washington or George Washington Carver. II think you would find that all but a few never heard of those heroes. Black heroes, and black fighters for American freedom, didn’t start with Dr. King in the 1960’s. It started in the American colonies in the 1700’s. When the average black American understands that they have had a vested interest in the history, and success, of this nation from the very beginning, they will understand that they are a large part of it now.

@Tom:

The indignity and paranoid anger so many feel when Al Sharpton finds his way onto the TV, is it really commensurate with reality? Is that a better barometer of the racial climate in this country than the black people I walk by every day who’ve given me nary a frown since the verdict?

The “indignity and paranoid anger” you claim so many feel is simply because we have an entire generation who has known nothing but the ramping up of discontentment by those who gained monetarily from that dissention.
Not since Dr. King has there been a reasonable voice from black leaders.

@Tom:

Well, first of all, I fail to see where in the speech white people are blamed for anything. I see the President shining a light on black on black crime.

The President didn’t come out and say he blamed white people. He said what every other black leader has said in a situation like this, albeit a little more subtly.

We understand that some of the violence that takes place in poor black neighborhoods around the country is born out of a very violent past in this country, and that the poverty and dysfunction that we see in those communities can be traced to a very difficult history.

There has to come a time in this country where we stop looking at and blaming the past. I know there is an income disparity in this country, that is one of the prices of freedom. But there is no opportunity disparity. I believe Greg made a comment once about the chances of Bill Gate’s kids being successful vs. some kid in the hood. Success typically begets success. If you have an example, a blueprint if you will, it’s easier to succeed. The ability to go to the best schools is a bonus. But you have to go to school. We have thrown tons and tons of money at public education and it is still failing. The District of Columbia had a school voucher program that was benefiting black children; Obama and Pelosi got rid of it because of the teacher’s union. And not to make this political, but the racist republicans voted to allow black families living in DC to find the best schools for their kids.

#89:

Thank you.

And yes, I appreciate that it isn’t your “job” to fix these problems. While Wordsmith has a valid point that understanding the history of racial tension in the United States is an important prerequisite to solving racial problems, that history is pretty widely understood and not seriously in question at this stage. As you so graciously concede, both “sides” are at fault.

As well your point that Zimmerman WAS arrested and WAS tried and justice WAS served is, of course, correct. And from that perspective, Obama’s acknowledgement that further Justice Department involvement in the case was unlikely was a sobering truth woven into a speech that appears otherwise to have been the President’s effort to soothe African-American anger over the verdict. Sane folks don’t want this issue – already blown WAY out of proportion to its real importance – to further inflate into a racial war, and Obama is one of those sane folks on this, for whatever his reasons.
Yes, blown WAY out or proportion. Here on Flopping Aces, I counted at least 12 separate threads running on the Martin-Zimmerman story… TWELVE! One Black kid tragically dead, and we are thus occupied! Are there not more IMPORTANT issues to resolve? Are we all so racist that every time something like this happens we all corral the wagons, lock and load? I do wonder how much of the Black community’s anger is a natural response to our tendency to preemptively blame them and theirs rather than wait for justice to run its course. As you said, both sides share the blame.

My Grandmother used to say that if you are going to “blame” somebody for something you’re not happy about, you should end the sentence or paragraph with a practical and reasonable solution to the problem you are blaming that person for causing. She would say “Everybody knows “what’s wrong,” so adding your two cents worth has NO value. It’s how to solve the problems that everybody doesn’t know, so coming up with solutions is what’s valuable. Then my Grandfather, who was an engineer, would add that “solving problems” was at the root of all jobs, and that I should learn this fundamental truth early to insure a successful career. Thus my encouragement toward finding solutions to problems and away from assignments of blame.

I’m really interested in the black-male-jail problem. Your “advice” is all very good advice, and I agree with every bit of it. But the parties to this problem are obviously not listening to you, or to Dr. Cosby, or to any of the others who are giving the same advice. I have dallied with Mandatory National Service for ANYONE who cannot provide evidence of gainful employment. I haven’t yet convinced myself that “MNS” is the right solution, but at this point, I’m convinced that the solution will come in the form of something having a few more teeth than nice advice.

George Wells
your grand mother had the wisdom, and your grand father also,
solution solution, think think,
but who are we to find the solution , who is smart enough to really dwell into the problem?
don’t we have to approched it step by step,
first ban the street to gangstas AND ANY ACCES TO DRUGS, have shuttle get them at their house to bring them at the arena.
give them an arena to burn their anger, BYCICLE TO RIDE INSIDE THAT GIANT ARENA AS BIG AS A SHOPPING CENTER,
fill it with positiveness tool they can learn physically and morally, add up the teaching of self restraint, AND WOOD CARVING WOOD BURNISHING ART,ECETERA, GLASS ART SO INTERESTING BECAUSE IT REVEAL THE LIGHT HIDDEN IN IT. AND GIVE THEM A JOB TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR FACILITYS, ROTATE THE DIRTY JOBS
with the right teacher,who will not bring the history but the famous achievers of this time,
bring GOD AND THEIR ALLEGEANCE TO THE FLAG AND AMERICA, NOT ANY HUMAN WHO IS ANY RANK IN THIS AMERICA, TEACH THEM OF THE FUTURE COMING AT THEM VERY FAST WHICH
THEY WILL NEED TO BE INVOLVED A 100 PER CENT, AS GOOD CITIZENS NOT GANGSTA.
IT WILL NEED A STERN ACTION ON THE BEGINNING,YOU NEED TO CURTAIL THE WEB MESSAGES AND WATCH EACH MESSAGE THEY SEND,UNTIL LATER,
WHICH AFTER THEIR FIRST CHOCK WILL NEED RE-AJUSTED TO LESS EXCESSIVE, AND LESSER AS THEY PROGRESS, NO KIDS LEFT ALONE, TO WANDER ELESEWHERE,
THAT ARENA IS LOCKED NO ONE GO OUT, ONLESS A PARENT PICK THEM UP,
OR THEY ARE BROUGHT TO THEM BY THE HIRED EMPLOYEES.

Like Aqua, I am a big man, and big men scare the crap out of people, not kids just adults. I’ve had women jump in their cars and lock the doors and leave their groceries in the cart, until I walk by, so this is a half-assed argument. To keep people from soiling their thongs and union suits, I need to smile and say “It’s a beautiful day” whether I mean it or not, does this mean I have something coming from the government or do I get a special situation in criminal court? ROTFL

Obama says he used to scare women, oh wow! My girl friend says she has never walked with a man who makes other men afraid to look at her, now where is my freebie from the government. I Have no tattoos or earrings, I am pasty faced with snow on the roof year round, well I managed to stab myself in the knee with a pencil, when I was a kid. That’s my only tattoo, no one sees it unless I point it out, so I don’t think it counts.

Kids see past the big man and look at the man within, that’s why a lost kid will always come to me for help. Most adults are a bunch of sniveling wimps, that’s why big people scare people.

@Skook:
“Kids see past the big man and look at the man within, that’s why a lost kid will always come to me for help. Most adults are a bunch of sniveling wimps, that’s why big people scare people.”

Very true observation – one I’ve made often over the years – and one that I think is important. But WHY is it true???? How do we get that way? Is it related to that Janis Joplin line: “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose”? Once we work hard to get “something,” do we grow fearful that someone “bigger” will take it from us? We must have “learned” this response along the way to adulthood, don’t you think?

@George Wells: I’ve worked with approximately a 100,000 head of horses during the last fifty years and I’ve visited with thousands of kids and watched them grow-up. I also have a good relationship with countless dogs on horse farms and ranches. My experience is purely anecdotal, but I have a lot of experience.

Kids, dogs, and horses respond to life in a similar manner, they rely heavily on instinct. Part of the process of becoming an adult in our culture, requires an individual to deny these basic instincts that animals and kids rely on. Adults are expected to apply reason and logic to life’s many decisions and make mature decisions; basic instincts regarding survival become less and less important, especially to the urbanite. Kids and animals have a limited ability to apply algebraic reasoning in decision making, so relying on instinct is one of the most important aspects for these non-adults.

The domestic horse and dog don’t compare to the true mustang and Timber Wolf in mental or physical abilities, but they must work with what they have. We humans who are known as good horsemen and dog men know how to exploit the personalities of dogs and horses, but the truly great dog men and horsemen let their minds “drift” into the mind of their animals and thus communicate on a truly different plane. Kids, at least many of them, are bold enough to start or exist on this level to relate to horses and dogs. I maintain, this is why some kids will relate to horses that are difficult if not impossible for most adults.

It’s literally a mind game, one that I have played almost every day of my life, and I am only beginning to understand the basic format. It’s not new, many men have used the same techniques, but few have written or mentioned specifics, because others regard them as off center. I am too old and established to care, besides, I demonstrate the theory almost every day and no one challenges me or says it is parlor tricks, not to my face.

I believe, when men discount their instinctual traits, they often become more fearful rather than braver. After observing many who are aggressive toward horses (dogs and children), I believe aggression is merely a means to mask fear. It is easy for a big cowardly man to intimidate others, but a man who is masterful within himself, never feels the need to impress others with his manliness. Of course overbearing people are not limited to big men, we have all seen people of all sizes who want to quell opposition before a possible showdown arises, thus they continuously wage verbal and mental intimidation against all who will submit.

A problem arises when they meet people who don’t react in the normal manner to intimidation; sadly, these pathetic aggressors try to befriend those who are likely to rain on the psychological parade of petty tyrants.

Those who are abusive to horses are abusive to members of their families, dogs, waiters, bartenders, lawn boys, and news paper boys. They exist in a world of deceit, it is a fragile world suspended over people who are willing to be bullied and abused. Like the spider who is constantly repairing his web, these people must continually reenforce their tyranny over animals and people to keep this fragile web of deceit from collapsing.

@Skookum: Well written as always. What is your thought on slaughter houses. Their treatment of farmed animals, and the psychological impact on those who work in them. Any other thoughts on the forced feeding and overall treatment of factory farmed animals. Should we as a humane society be O.K. with this–In effect-look the other way? Thanks

Any other thoughts on the forced feeding and overall treatment of factory farmed animals. Should we as a humane society be O.K. with this–In effect-look the other way? Thanks

Ladies and gentlemen; I present you the problem with the progressive brain.

There have been approx. 55 million babies aborted since Roe. But as a progressive, Richard was agreeable to trying to talk to President Obama about the treatment of the American mustang horse, but I doubt he would ever consider talking to the President about the millions of babies that have been murdered or pushing for abortion to be made illegal in 99.9% of the cases in his own state of California.

And you doubt that liberalism is a mental disorder?