Let’s look at the Martin/Zimmerman timeline.
First we have to audio clip that Mata provided for us.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw[/youtube]
And the transcript is here
The official audio can be downloaded here.
To begin with, Zimmerman is in his vehicle (1) as he speaks with the dispatcher. At 0:56 of the clip
“That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the- he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
“Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
It does sound as though Martin (2) is walking in a direction away from the clubhouse, toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman says Martin is near the clubhouse, but Zimmerman does not say that he is near the clubhouse. The clubhouse is near the main entrance on Oregon St.
Zimmerman expressed concern that Martin might be carrying something as he approaches:
“He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something’s wrong with him. Yep. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Send officers over here.”
Zimmerman begins to give instructions as to his location when Martin begins to run and Zimmerman exclaims
“Shit, he’s running.”
At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:
“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
Zimmerman says “OK” and the rustling ends at 2:42.
At 2:38 Zimmerman says “He ran” and apparently lost sight of Martin. Martin apparently escaped.
Zimmerman remains on the phone with the dispatcher until at least 4:12. During that time he describes his location and directs the dispatcher to the location of his parked car.
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
That puts Zimmerman’s vehicle on Twin Trees Lane. According to one report, near the bend. Martin apparently fled in between the 28 and 12 buildings toward his father’s girlfriend’s place, located near the back entrance of Twin Lakes. It is the direction Zimmerman described.
Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Zimmerman: “Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”
Zimmerman’s phone call was received at 7:11:12. At 2:42 on the audio, Zimmerman stopped running and lost sight of Martin. That puts it at 7:13:54 or so. Zimmerman continues to speak to the dispatcher until at least 4:12 of the audio, or 7:15:24. It’s reported that the phone call to Brandy Green ended at 7:16. The fight and shooting took place between then and when the police arrived at 7:17.
This is the point the gaps exist.
Zimmerman is reportedly parked on Twin Trees Lane. He says Martin is coming toward him, and then he says Martin runs. Zimmerman says that Martin runs “towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”(3) That is SE of Zimmerman’s position and it is in the direction of the home of Martin’s girlfriend. (4) Zimmerman begins chase, but then stands down when it was requested he do so and he apparently loses sight of Martin. The question is, which way did Martin run? If he ran down Twin Trees avoiding Zimmerman (5), Zimmerman could keep him in sight for some time. That would put Martin some distance from where the altercation occurred- in between 1321 and 2821, as described in the police report. (6) Martin was initially placed near the clubhouse. If he reversed course, say to head up to Retreat Circle (7), then Zimmerman would not have described him running toward the back entrance on South Oregon. If Martin ran toward the area in between buildings 28 and 12 passing near Zimmerman’s car and then turning the corner, Zimmerman would lose sight of him quickly.
This is all of significance because there was less than a minute in between the time Zimmerman ended the call to the police and the beginning of the altercation as the phone call from Martin to Green is said to have ended at 7:16 and Zimmerman was speaking to the dispatcher until 7:15:24. That’s about 30 seconds for Martin and Zimmerman to come together.
Zimmerman had no idea to where Martin was headed. Zimmerman did not catch Martin while Zimmerman was on the phone and Martin had a head start even if he only “walked fast” he still could outpace Zimmerman. Yet somehow they could not have been farther apart than about 30 seconds closure.
Then we come to some other questions. If Zimmerman was “hunting down” Martin as some have opined, why did he not simply shoot Martin upon encountering him? Why would Zimmerman get so close to Martin that Martin could punch Zimmerman in the face and knock him down if his intention was to kill Martin? (BTW, ABC News has had an epiphany. It has decided that George Zimmerman had injuries after all) Would a person bent on murder allow himself to be assaulted and still expect that he could reach and fire his gun? If Zimmerman was brandishing a gun what could possess Martin to attack him? No reasonable person is going to charge someone aiming a gun at one. Zimmerman agreed to meet with the police as they arrived. Why would he agree to meet them and then chase after Martin to kill him? Why would someone bent on murder hold Martin at gunpoint while he screamed for 40 seconds? Because he wanted witnesses to the murder? Why didn’t Zimmerman run if murder was the goal?
None of this makes any sense.
Now let’s consider what probably happened. Back to the NY Times
Soon, callers to 911 were describing the presence of police officers, and the beams of flashlights gliding over a section of grass a few dozen yards from Trayvon’s destination, where a boy inside was waiting for Skittles.
A few dozen yards. A few is about 3. Three dozen yards. 36-40 yards. 120 feet. George Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon Martin at 2:38 of the call, or about 7:13:50. Martin has until 7:16 to cover the “few dozen yards” to make it to the safety of Brandy Green’s residence. Zimmerman remains on the phone until 7:15:24. Martin’s girlfriend said the phone call went “dead” at 7:16, but Martin and Zimmerman were already exchanging words. According to Martin’s girlfriend, the conversation was initiated by Martin. The window between the end of Zimmerman’s call to the SPD and the meeting is brief. Really brief.
Martin had over two minutes to reach Green residence. Why didn’t he go there? This suggests strongly that Martin did not go to the Green residence, but instead hid somewhere, waiting for Zimmerman, and then confronted Zimmerman. Martin spoke first to Zimmerman, not the other way around. I think Martin approached Zimmerman’s car from the direction of the clubhouse, passed the car and then bolted. Martin then rounded the corner and hid. Zimmerman pursued until being asked to stop but lost Martin. As Zimmerman turned to head back to his car, Martin came out of hiding and confronted Zimmerman. The rest is history.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
The Strategic MC
YES, I like that, I’m surprise to see it in CNN,
IT GIVE A HOPE TO THOSE WHO THINK HE DESERVE HIS FREEDOM,
THANK YOU
BYE
@MataHarley:
Read somewhere that Zimmerman is a renter in the neighborhood too. Not sure if that is accurate but, if so, that means that there is likely very little there to go after as far as assets. He’ll have vehicles and personal property in his name but probably not much more than that.
We know that he was a student and that he was not working a high income type job.
Any civil suit against him, and there is sure to be at least one or two, will as you said produce not much more than a turnip’s blood.
Had a chance to hear Professor Dershowitz speak on the affidavit yet? He’s not impressed:
(Yes it’s HardBall on MSNBC. No, fortunately, it’s not Tingles)
Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy
Aye, the affidavit for probable cause is an outline of the prosecutor’s conclusion, based on evidence they’ve collected, that is to establish reasonable beliefs that a crime has been committed. It’s not the presentation of their evidence. But it does give us an idea of what they will be attempting to prove in court. As it states in the final paragraph, it’s not a complete recitation of all the facts and evidence, just a summary of their conclusions.
It’s not supposed to “impress” any one. I didn’t hear Dershowitz, but I did hear Mark Levin, who registered the same response. I know Levin got hung up on the “depraved mind without regard for human life” bit. Being as he’s a Constitutional lawyer, and not criminal law specializing in homicide, it’s not one of the arenas he knows off the top of his head. And he did put in that caveat.
Being as the customary definition of “depraved” is associated with evil, that word does make you raise an eyebrow until you read what that phrase means in the legal world… also called “depraved indifference to human life.” But it describes “an utter disregard for the potential damage to human life that their actions could cause.” (From FindLaw)
Simply put, it means that the prosecution has concluded that Zimmerman gave insufficient thought and regard as to the danger and conditions his actions would cause.
As far as the second degree murder criteria, I posted this on the other thread from a FL criminal law site. The prosecution must prove three elements beyond reasonable doubt.
1: That the victim is dead
2: That the death was caused by a series of acts or events, creating the conditions that led to the death
3: That the killer had a “depraved” disregard for for human life (as described above)
From all that I’ve seen in the call logs and timing of events, and not withstanding additional benefits of witness interviews, plus having the account from Zimmerman himself to compare (and other stuff we may not know about – forensics/autopy etc), I doubt that any of the above are going to be difficult to present as unbelievable. Martin is undeniably dead. Zimmerman did perform a series of decisions… i.e. disregard for the dispatchers warnings, conducting patrols while armed, following someone not doing anything illegal, and – according to the conclusions of the prosecutor – confronting Martin and not the other way around. As for the “depraved mind without regard for human life”, that would be Zimmerman as impervious to the ugly outcome if, indeed, he did meet Martin face to face while he was carrying a weapon.
A “tough sell”, as Zimmerman’s head cheerleader describes? Not necessarily. What remains is if a jury will look at the compiled evidence in the hands of the prosecutor, and have no doubt whatsoever as to it being a factual account. And that’s how it should be.
In the meantime, the defense will have the opportunity of discovery.. access to the prosecutions evidence…. to prepare for Zimmerman’s defense. They won’t be blindsided, and are privvy to all the prosecutor’s office possesses. It’s just not provided here in the affidavit. That’s not the place for it.
The Affidavit Of Probable Cause:
http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf
@MataHarley
I have noticed in some of today’s articles a tone that may have come about as the MSM sees the charges being brought as partial vindication. Some of it is the same play for emotion that has always been part of the media slant. TM’s mother’s belief about the screams on the 911 tape are what most mothers would believe in this situation and many people will sympathize with her. Wrongful death suits in lethal force cases are common enough that they should bear on any CHL holder’s decision to apply it in the direst extreme. Parks & Crump have stated that they see this case the same as the Martin Lee Anderson case that netted an 8 million dollar award. Lawyers can be a mendacious lot and any actions on their part are usually motivated by less than altruistic motives. profiling is a survival skill and works very well when applied as the Israelis do.In our case we allow tolerance to become criminal in itself because we apply it to evil men who are patient and dedicated to destroying us. The Israeli’s do not suffer such foolishness.
Brian, I don’t know that there is a pile of cash to be hand from any of the parties involved in this criminal trial, but the attorney’s would clean up anyway from the fame, media, books, future clientele, etc. Look at Marcia Clark, lead prosecutor for the OJ trial. They lost, and she has had a prolific existence in it’s wake. Even Mark Furman has benefited with novels.
@ The Strategic MC
Thank you for the link. Mr.D seems to find little or nothing to support the charges.
Brian
hi, you know I was trying to figure out, why I saw something wrong ,
not fitting in the whole scene, when ZIMMERMAN ARRIVE and stood there, everyone is solemn
which is the right posture of all of them ,
the other video, is CORY looking happy and smiling to the audience in front which are all tense ,
and those officers behind her all very serious and standing on guard,
and what bothered me is her smile of satisfaction, while she presented that quick charge which took a second or more to come out after the previous words,
I just didn’t think it was fitting in that frame.
bye
It’s called trying to defuse tension, and calm the storm that has been a’swirling. She’s a tough and experienced prosecutor, handles situations and people well, highly regarded, and a smooth operator. The process works better when emotions are not running amok. And it’s about time everyone calmed down and let the American justice system work… even if a little late to the party.
@ILOVEBEESWARZONE
bees Ms.Corey is probably very happy to have shifted the attention and ultimate decision to the jury trial and away from her after 40 plus days.
Brian
yes that must be the reason, it was bugging me , maybe I am in a more dramatic mood than she is,on that subject,
I assume that it has become routine for her after many years on this.
bye
@MataHarley:
You have a strange understanding of the meaning of “constantly”.
He was my constant companion those 9 years == I hadn’t seen him in 9 years, except one time when we ran into each other at the mall. We might have gone to Starbucks. I think he was working in insurance, or maybe retail, I can’t remember.
There was a single call about a car without its headlines on over 9 years, the car was also speeding, and perhaps something else (“BOLO”D 11A”) and it was not in the subdivision.
The loud music call was at 2:30 AM, and was from a car that had also been driving slowly through an aprtment complex for 5 minutes.
One open garage door was the night after the Neighborhood Watch meeting, and the police officer had told them to report such things.
jimrtex, what are you babbling about? I said if Zimmerman were my neighbor, he and I would clash constantly. i.e. every interaction I would have with him would likely be an unpleasant one. Why? Because he’s a chicken little who calls 911 for minor incidents. That is obvious by the position of the words in the sentence, “he and I would have clashed constantly *for*”.
Has nothing to do with any repetitive reason for calling.
jimrtex
thank you for the info, very important too.
@Aye:
I had read that as well. His address is skipped on the tax appraisal rolls.
BTW the Bing Maps for the area are interesting (try 1231 Twin Trees, and rotate around. Microsoft uses aerial photos rather than satellite images, so they can give a vertical perspective as well.
Zimmerman is not the occupying tenant. Brandy Green is. If Zimmerman owns no property, his name will not appear on any data tax rolls.
@Brian:
The correct answer to the question that’s on everyone’s mind, “Just what in the h#ll is Angela Corey doing?” is:
A. – Changing the subject.
We now know why she was so giddy in announcing the charges.
@MataHarley: The statement that the jewelry didn’t match any known stolen is meaningless. I was a cop for 25 years. MOST theft is not reported. Even when it is, unless the items are serialized they are not going to be in a police database beyond the local one. If they were stolen from the next town over, for example, there would be no record of it available to the police when checking the back pack.
People routinely discover things are missing years after the theft occurred, and many never realise they have been burglarized at all. The odds of the police matching the jewelry with reportedly stolen jewelry would be probably about 1 in 50. It just doesn’t happen in the real world.
I was burglarized five years ago. Just three days ago I discovered yet another item missing, which I assume was taken in the five year old burglary but have no way of knowing.
You can always make an excuse for someone being caught with something suspicious. The fact that Martin would not tell where he got the jewelry is far more telling than the police not having the ability to match it up. Clearly the police have no case if they can’t match it up (if they had, they would have arrested him), but that doesn’t mean the jewelry wasn’t stolen. It probably was. That doesn’t mean Martin stole it, but if there was a way of proving the case one way or another, I’d be placing my bets on his either having stolen it or at least knowing it was stolen.
Devon, I understand that not all thefts are reported. Then again, no insurance claims came be made unless they are. That is the decision of the victim of theft to make.
The point, however, remains the same. Martin has no criminal record. There is no evidence that he stole the jewelry or that the jewelry was stolen. Nor is there any obligation for anyone to come forth and claim the jewelry is their’s. Therefore to hang something, sans evidence, on anyone merely to cast them in a negative light, is inappropriate and irrelevant.
@Devon Stavrowsky:
Devon, Interesting story about your case.
My case was that we were burglarized while we were out one evening.
We called police and they found whole handprints all over the place.
But the prints didn’t match anything in their system…..at that time.
Fast forward a couple of years.
We get a visit from police about our case.
The guy has FINALLY been arrested.
He was 19 year old when he was finally arrested.
Turned out the system; teachers AND police, early on were coddling him in hopes he would stop his bad behavior.
They never knew all the stuff they had been allowing to continue while they let him go “just this once,” or just one more chance,” about TEN TIMES!
He confessed to hundreds of home break-ins.
The stuff was long gone.
He traded it for GUNS, tattoos and drugs.
He really had the wool pulled over the eyes of all his bleeding heart teachers and a couple cops, too.
@MataHarley
As you said the term” depraved” carries a different connotation in law than common usage. Commonly a depraved person would be one whose behavior is seen as perverse. I think many in the media with their incomplete understanding of the term are seeing that connotation in their perception of GZ and his actions. It is a sad commentary that society will take the trivial actions of trivial people and confer celebrity on them and then pay them handsomely for that notoriety. True,reported, actions worthy of the public’s celebration seem so few these days,even though our service members perform them daily in dusty,primal,far off places. Reading of other Florida cases, where SYG has originally been cited, it is the 60-90 seconds before the final act that it seems the cases turns upon. It is then a case of self-defense and that is a concept the public generally acknowledges. Some of these cases have had pursuits similar to and in some much more confrontational than is alleged of GZ.
Don’t disagree with that in the slightest, Brian. Our warriors reap no fame and fortune, but if you engage in sexual activities with the right person (i.e. Monica Lewinski), you’re set for life. The mayor of Newark can rescue a neighbor from a burning building once and it’s national news while firemen who do that daily get little accolades. Weird world, eh?
@MataHarley:
Bill Clinton is set for life.
That’s what you meant, right, Mata?
As for Monica L.
Not so much.
Monica could not escape the spotlight in the U.S., which made both her professional and personal life difficult.
She stopped selling her handbag line and moved to London years ago.
In December 2006, shegraduated with a master’s degree in social psychology from the London School of Economics.
Her thesis was titled “In Search of the Impartial Juror: An Exploration of the Third-person effect and Pre-Trial Publicity.”
She tries to avoid publicity.
See:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1870544_1870543_1870550,00.html
Not so peachy.
Monica had the opportunity not afforded to her otherwise… that she blew it, is her fault.
@MataHarley:
There’s a treasure trove of material there….
Walking away quietly.
Aye… LOL! Well, what with the money she… er… frittered away (things like the $1 mil from Jennie Craig, half mil in her book advance alone, autographed copies selling for $100 plus, expensive lipsticks that actually sold well), one can say that Ms. Lewinski’s talents were not rooted in wise business investments. But I suspect the recent PBS release might give her another wave of financial notoriety.
Nan G.
CONGRATULATION, FOR THE 600 COMMENTS,
BYE
@MataHarley:
Actually it’s not “not all thefts are reported”, it’s “the vast majority of thefts go unreported”, and of those that are reported, unless the item is serialized and can therefore be put into a searchable state-wide database, stolen property will not be identified as such (even if it was, as I said reported) if the theft took place in a different investigative jurisdiction.
Were I the police that interviewed Martin regarding the jewelry, I also would not have arrested ,because there was insufficient evidence to convict. However, from that moment on, Martin would become someone the police were keeping an eye on.
There is a vast difference between the police ‘convicting’ someone (which incurs the establishment of a criminal record and some form of official rebuke and/or punishment) and developing intelligence on someone.
We wouldn’t hound the guy, but crooks develop and tend to stick to M/Os. The next time Martin was found by a school official to be in possession of likely stolen goods, it would trigger an association. After a while, he becomes known for it in the Law enforcement community, and patterns of known behavior start to emerge.
I had one kid that liked to break into houses in a particular manner. He was pretty good. It took about 3 years, but we eventually established enough of a pattern that after one particular burglary we were able to show his picture around the neighborhood, and sure enough, the day of the burglary he was seen by several people in the area though it was not a part of town in which he lived. A couple days later… same thing in a different neighborhood. It was enough for a judge to grant us a search warrant, and in his house we found tens of thousands of dollars in stolen property. Once busted, he told us the whole story. He was quite proud of it actually. Said he’s been hitting between 6 and 8 houses every day for the previous three years. This kid (he was JUST 18 when we busted him) had stolen well over a million dollars worth of property, which he had sold for just a couple of cents on the dollar. He used the money mainly to keep himself in drugs (though he seemed to have a new bike every other week that could not be proven to be stolen – he actually bought a lot of those).
The day we busted him was the day after his 18th birthday. A juvenile no more, he took a pretty big fall for a first offense – 15 years. He was out in five, and -here’s the funny thing- we didn’t know he’d gotten out until a couple of burgs came in that fit his M/O… So we checked, and sure enough he’d just recently been released. We had him back in San Quentin within the month.
I’m not saying Martin was doing that. I’m saying when he has jewelry in his possession that he WILL NOT account-for, he is now on the police radar… and he SHOULD be.
When NBC cut out the dispatcher asking Martin’s race, they also cut out Zimmerman’s explanation of the reason he thought Zimmermna looked suspicious: That he was just kind of wandering around looking at buildings IN THE RAIN. That DOES look suspicious. People actually going somewhere in the rain tend to look pretty deliberate in their movements. Most people don’t like standing around in the rain…. looking at buildings. That is classic activity for a burglar casing an area to potentially victimize, however.
It’s not an issue of convicting Martin of anything on flimsy evidence. It goes to Zimmerman’s state of mind in observing Martin’s activities and knowing that the neighborhood has been victimized recently. And yes, burglars DO often return to places they have hit before….. and in fact will often map previously struck locations for specific items (e.g.- the house at 2010 Front street has a new worm-drive Skilsaw in the garage) so they can return-for them when they next have a buyer. The really good burglars have their booty sold before they steal it so they only have to hold it the minimum amount of time possible.
The unaccounted-for jewelry likely can not, and will not be brought into evidence in Zimmerman’s trial, but it is consistent with the kind of pattern of behavior with which Zimmerman’s reported observations are also consistent, and there may be other things about Martin of which we are totally unaware that are also consistent with the type of behavior that Zimmerman claims to have suspected and which may be admissible for purposes of showing Zimmerman’s state of mind. That will be a key issue in this trial, as his state of mind is an element of the crime with which he was charged.
In the blogosphere, suspicious activity tends to mitigate the contention that Martin was just a slaughtered innocent… which was effectively how the majority of the press and the race-baiters were pushing it. That needed to be mitigated, because it was getting completely out of hand, and in the process it was turning Zimmerman into a victim. Nobody should have a price put on their head by a bunch of A-holes. We don’t allow vigilante justice in this country. The fact that neither Holder nor the state of Florida didn’t even enjoin them from doing it (let’s not even consider maybe charging them for one of several crimes it amounts-to) is a national disgrace.
That doesn’t in any way mean Martin deserved to die….. but it may help explain how both he and Zimmerman ended up where they ended up.
What needs to come out in the trial WILL come out in the trial.
Hi Mata (#62): When was the last time that the mayor of a major US city (or any other major politician) not only entered a burning building but also went through the burning, smoke filled building to pull a helpless woman out of bed and brought her out to safety, with both woman and mayor suffering second degree burns and smoke inhalation.
Of course it was national news. It would have been national news in any country of the world and in the USA in any decade of the last 50 years.
The guy was a legitimate hero. He’s also brilliant thinking on his feet in an interview and has been a darned good mayor. He’d be a great potential candidate for high national office, save for mutterings about his status as a never-married 40-something.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Didn’t say that he wasn’t a good Samaritan, Larry. If you ran into your next door neighbor’s house and did the same, you’d be a hero too, but it wouldn’t be national news. It’s not national news when firemen do it day in and day out.
But because he’s a politician, it is. Maybe it’s unique to find one with some redeeming value.. who knows. One does have to wonder if there’s a pecking order for that… like would a lowly city councilman or woman get the same national treatment? But I’m aware of that weird mentality in our society. I just find it rather self serving myself. And that’s exemplified perfectly by your ensuing comment that he’d be great potential for a high national office. Why? Because of that act alone?
I repeat… bizarre.
Were it my rescue, I could care less he was the mayor. I’d just consider myself lucky I had a great neighbor. I’m surrounded by those unacknowledged heroes myself. Had a chimney fire in the house last week, and many came to my aid. Thank heavens it was confined to smoke, the flames got under control quickly, and damage minimal. But it’s what made me think of it when I heard the news.
Devon Stavroswky
hi,
thank you, this is very well understood, and clear as it should have BEEN from
the beginning of the events, which I think they are trying to make simple facts difficult to understand
even if we know HAVE BEEN corroborated by the many exchanges in different communication mediums,
they have included wording to please and comfort one side instead of helping the one who is implicated solely in all this charge,
I feel good to read your sentences about what will be not tolerate in this AMERICA,
IT IS COMFORTING TO LEAN ON THAT STATEMENT WHICH MANY NEED TO HEAR.
BEST TO YOU
Devon Stavrowsky excerps: “…and there may be other things about Martin of which we are totally unaware that are also consistent with the type of behavior that Zimmerman claims to have suspected and which may be admissible for purposes of showing Zimmerman’s state of mind. That will be a key issue in this trial, as his state of mind is an element of the crime with which he was charged.”
Zimmerman’s suspicions were HIS suspicions. Had he taken the statement of the 911 representative and backed off from following Martin and let the police do their job, the tragedy could have been prevented. Martin is not a policeman. He had absolutely no police power. He was a neighborhood watch volunteer. Observe and report is the policy of the Sanford Police Neighborhood Watch program. All the police department expected of Zimmerman was to report his observation then permit the Sanford police handle the situation from there. They were being dispatched. Zimmerman was not satisfied with that. He insisted upon being actively involved, regardless of being told he didn’t need to follow Martin. These things will definitely come up in the Zimmerman trial.
Next excerpt: “We don’t allow vigilante justice in this country.”
Strange you should use that phrase. It was Zimmerman who exercised vigilante justice. He made an assumption that the teen was up to no good and called 911. He became a vigilante when he followed the teen. Following someone is not a duty of a neighborhood watch volunteer. They are told not to pursue… observe and report, that’s all. Sure sounds like the dead teen was a result of a vigilante with his own self-styled justice, only to find his assumptions and vigilanteism were both dead wrong.
C. LINDY
YOU MADE A MISTAKE, WHEN YOU TYPE MARTIN IS NOT A POLICE,
YOU MEANT ZIMMERMAN IS NOT A POLICE, YES?
I SAY ZIMMERMAN DID NOT PURSUE, HE WALK TO LOCATE THE ONE HE SUSPECTED
BECAUSE HE HIS THERE TO REPORT THE LOCATION OF HIS SUSPECT,
HE WAS DOING HIS JOB THE RIGHT WAY. SO TO PREVENT ANOTHER BREAK IN,
AND his mind was not to kill him,
because if so, he could have kill him many times
I will say that, the actions of TRAYVON, HAVE CONTRIBUTE TO HIS DEATH,
NOT THE ACTIONS OF ZIMMERMAN,
BECAUSE TRAYVON SHOWED FEAR THERE, AND WITH REASON TOO, BECAUSE OF WHAT WE KNOW OF HIS BACKGROUND, HE SURELY DID NOT WANT TO BE SEARCH, AND THE SIGN OF COMMUNITY WATCH WAS BIG AND IMPOSSIBLE TO MISS FROM HIM, AND IF SOMEONE IS THERE TO DISTURB YOUR INTENT TO DO SOMETHING HE GOT VERY ANGRY, WHICH LEAD HIM TO SAY; YOU GOT A PROBLEM NOW,
I WILL KILL YOU, AND PROCEED TO DO IT,
same as the 6 boys on the old man have been told by the 17 year old to kill him, while he was bashing his head repeatedly with a hammer,
when anyone reach the madness point to say, I WILL KILL YOU, you don’t need to prove
anything more, THE MIND SET IS ON THE ONE WHO SAID IT, HE ALSO PROVED IT,
AND ZIMMERMAN SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN ALERT INSTENTLY,
AND HIS MIND DICTATING TO DEFEND HIS LIFE,
AS SOON AS HE COULD
@c. lindy:
oops…. your whole rants ASSUMES Zimmerman did not back off. Unless you were there, you have absolutely NO way of validly making that assertion. And if you were there, you should not be blogging about what you know with a trial pending. Zimmerman claims he DID back off, and that Martin circled around, came back, and attacked him. We don’t know.
We do know this….. the confrontation (whomever initiated it) occurred just a few feet from Zimmerman’s truck. Odd that should be the case if Zimmerman got out of his truck and followed Martin as people like yourself state as absolute fact.
But it exactly fits Zimmerman’s assertion that he had quit following Martin when so instructed by the dispatcher, had lost sight of Martin, and had been approached and assaulted by Martin as he arrived back at his truck. Unless, of course, Martin led Zimmerman first away from his truck, around the buildings, then back to his truck as he followed him. Possible…… but a heckova lot less likely (if for no other reason than the time doing that would require), and something they should be able to establish without too much difficulty at trial.
I suppose it depends upon what one considers “a few feet”. The distance between the approx location of Zimmerman’s parked truck and the site of the killing is at least 160-165’… possibly more if he’s parked a bit further west on Twin Trees Lane. Because it’s a sidewalk “tee”, and a walk thru path in the neighborhood, he was no where near his truck or the road.
At a fitness walk pace of 5′ per second, he could make it to the site of death in that 30 odd seconds, but not much further. No matter how you look at it, he was the distance away from the truck that he moved in the phone call, and there is a lost two minutes of movement by Zimmerman that isn’t accounted for.
The question is, exactly what did he do in the two minutes after he hung up from the dispatcher? What we do know is that he did not return to his truck, or go to the mailboxes, to meet the police – the two places suggested by the dispatcher to meet the LEO.
The NBPP chief of staff was arrested in Atlanta over two weeks ago on possession of a firearm by a felon. He is one who was pushing the “bounty”, which was not NBPP funds, but a collection of donations from supporters that contributed. Both the Sanford PD and the FBI are investigating, and who knows how that investigation is going. But certainly they can’t arrest the entire NBPP, and need to narrow it down to the individuals who are responsible.
@c. lindy:
Please note also that my statement that we don’t allow vigilante justice in this country still stands. You assert that Zimmerman was acting as a vigilante. That’s why he has been arrested and is going to trial. It will be determined at the trial whether he did or did not. We don’t allow vigilante justice in this country.
So why hasn’t the poster of the wanted dead or alive warrant been arrested? Because nobody killed Zimmerman? The crime is in posting the warrant. The fact that nobody has been able to collect on it is irrelevant. Having Zimmerman end up dead because of it would just add ANOTHER crime to the indictment.
Devon Stavrowsky: A vigilante is a private individual who presumes to carry out extralegal punishment in defiance of existing law.
Sanford Florida Police Department’s online material for Neighborhood Watch is on page 3:
You will add your “eyes and ears” to those of the Police Department which cannot be everywhere, all the time, by keeping a watchful eye and open ear to what is happening in your neighborhood. You will extend their ability to provide security by reporting anything unusual or suspicious, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so they can follow up on your leads. What you will not do is get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehension of any suspicious persons. This is the job of the law enforcement agency.
Wendy Dorival (Sanford FL Police Neighborhood Watch Organizer) stated she gave a warning in regard to vigilante behavior at the meeting Zimmerman and a few neighbors attended: “I said, ‘If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out. Observe from a safe location.’ There’s even a slide about NOT being vigilante police. I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.”
I believe the neighborhood watch policies were violated by George Zimmerman in several respects.
Devon Stavrowsky says: “We do know this….. the confrontation (whomever initiated it) occurred just a few feet from Zimmerman’s truck. Odd that should be the case if Zimmerman got out of his truck and followed Martin as people like yourself state as absolute fact.”
—————————
Sounds like you need to review the transcript of Zimmerman’s 911 call. And it sounds like you need to review the marked map at the beginning of this thread to get a better handle on where Zimmerman’s truck was parked in relation to the walkway leading to Retreat View Cir, the street where Martin temporarily resided. Saying Zimmerman’s truck was parked just (a few feet) from where Martin was killed is a gross exaggeration. Take a look at the walkway leading to Retreat View Cir. from Twin Trees Dr.
And if anyone would like to know where the community mailboxes are located (a common question) and where Z. said he would meet the arriving police… the mail boxes are inside the pool area which is pretty close to the clubhouse. Zimmerman’s truck was parked no where near that location as marked by the number 1 on the map. See map at the top of this page.
you don’t need to get involve physically even if the suspect decide to get involve physically,
that’s what ZIMMERMAN DID NOT GET INVOLDED PHYSICALLY,
UNTIL HE WAS SEEING HIS BODY PHYSICALLY COMING NUMB ENOUGH TO LOOSE CONSCIENCE
AND DIE FROM HIS WOUNDS,
WAS HE SUPPOSE TO DIE? LIKE MANY SEEMS TO WANT.
Brian
on your 578
they want to bring ZIMMERMAN TO A CIVIL RIGHT TRIAL? IN ELECTION TIME?
I SAY BRING IT ON, AND SINK THEM DEEPER THAN THEY ALREADY ARE WITH
THEIR INTERVENTION ON THIS CASE ALONE, WHILE THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER PENDING WITH ATTACKS FROM YOUNG BLACKS, WHICH THEY DISREGARDED, IF THEY BRING RACE INVOLVEMENT IN THIS CASE
WILL MAKE THEM LOOK YELLOW. AND HE HAS THE RIGHT LAWYER TO TAKE THEM ON, I’m confidant in him to do a good job,
@c. lindy:
Has anyone noticed the weird quoting style here.
Wendy Dorival is the Crime Prevention Specialist for the Sanford Police Department. It is part of her job to help Neighborhood Watch groups become organized. She would have attended and help organize the meeting on Retreat View Circle – just as she would that any other area.
She no doubt would give the same presentation to any such group, and said “If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out. Observe from a safe location.” If she had prepared slides, she’d show the same at every such meeting. But the impression is that this was a special presentation for wannabe cops and semi-hot-blooded white-latinos.
The “I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it,” is directed at whomever was questioning/badgering her. She was probably looking at her watch as she was trying to calculate how many more times before she could rush home to cook dinner, rather than send the children off to 7/11 for Skittles and Tea, and still make it to her presentation at a new group that night.
BTW, the SPD website recommends having about 1 person per 8 to 10 household. For Retreat View, that would be somewhere around 20-30 persons. It is not clear what was meant by “few” who attended.
@MataHarley:
He called police one time for a car that didn’t have its headlights on. The car was also speeding. And it may have done something else, depending on what “BOLO”D. 11A . It was not in the neighborhood.
It is your fantasy that he was reporting every little thing, or even what he was reporting.
Now perhaps what you meant was that if he reported someone with a paper bag wandering around in the street; and two months later reported a county vehicle cutting off cars; and then one time he called police because somebody with out of state plates was banging on her door, she called him, and then he was unable to call her back; you would have been constantly yipping at him. He’d go out to pick his newspaper off the driveway, and you’d be outside pretending to goose step. Zimmerman: What’s up with this? Mataharley: “Reported any drunks lately?” Zimmerman: “Huh? That was three months ago, the guy was staggering around in the street. You’re weird.”
@MataHarley: @MataHarley:
Brandy Green does not live in Zimmerman’s unit. No wonder you appear so confused.
Zimmerman’s unit is not on the tax rolls. Maybe the New Black Panthers burnt it down.
Yes, jimrtex, with the bandying back and forth, I mentally swapped names. Tracy Martin is not a renter, Brandy Green is. Zimmerman is the occupying tenant. Neither will appear on tax rolls because neither are the owners of the real property they are occupying.
But you’re still incorrect. Zimmerman’s rental home is indeed on the tax rolls. County sites don’t remove real property tax value from their public tax rolls data base for politics or crime, so perhaps you don’t know where to look? Annual property taxes $1475 for 2011. Assessed value at $72,861 for 2012. Quite the hit since the deed of sale in 2006 (when they were new) states a $235,600 purchase price. Assessed values are generally lower than real market value (not always a given, but usual), but it’s already been noted that the neighborhood values have plummeted, and foreclosures and vacancies are up.
@c. lindy: @c. lindy:
He observed behavior that was consistent with that of the recent burglaries in the area, which appeared to be pretty amateur. Break-in grab something and run. The one where the burglars which matched the description given in a call by Zimmerman, were on bikes on a shortcut to the apartments to the west. The police officer asked if the laptops belonged to them. They replied, no. The officer asked if they minded if he took a look. He did, the serial numbers matched that reported earlier.
Zimmerman observed Martin for 2 minutes before he began to run, and an unknown time before he called the police. He did not call 911, he called another number. If Martin had been simply been walking at a slow pace (30 minute miles) he would have easily cleared the area in that time.
Zimmerman was a careful observer. When asked for the race, he made a tentative identification, and then confirmed it once Martin was approaching him and facing towards him. He accurately described his clothing, and that he was in his late teens. If the police had arrived they would have had an ID on him. This has been twisted to suggest that he picked out Martin for what he was wearing. The other persons he reported were wearing shorts and tank tops.
The affidavit of probable cause claims that the dispatcher that police officers were on the way, and to wait for them. In fact no police officers were on the way at that instant, and the dispatcher had just escalated the call as Martin approached Zimmerman. The dispatcher did not know where Zimmerman was – whether he was on foot, in a car, in a house. He did not know Zimmerman’s name. Zimmerman had to take the initiative and explain where he was at.
When Zimmerman observed that Martin had begun to run, the dispatcher asked Zimmerman which direction. It was after that question, that the truck door opened, and Zimmerman explained that Martin was heading toward the “other entrance”. As the dispatcher asked for an explanation of “other entrance”, the door closed, and Zimmerman began following in the direction he had run. We don’t know how far Martin was when he began running but he had about a 7 second head start. There is no reason to assume that he meant to apprehend the taller 17 YO on foot, particularly since he appeared to headed for the back entrance, and Zimmerman was talking on his phone as he proceeded.
Zimmerman’s activities are consistent with continuing to observe at what he believed was a safe distance. It certainly did not demonstrate disregard for human life. When the dispatcher asked whether he was following, Zimmerman acknowledged, and when the dispatcher instructed/suggested that he not do so, he said OK. and complied. The sounds subsided.
Did the dispatcher know that Zimmerman was some distance from his truck? Did he know that Zimmerman was not returning to his truck. Did he think that Zimmerman was in any danger?
Obviously he did not. His next question was “what is your name?”. He talked on the phone for another 1-1/2 minutes in which he cheerfully agreed to have the officer call Zimmerman so that he could meet at the location he had last observed Martin.
The dispatcher suggested this location because he needed an address to dispatch to. Zimmerman asked if he could have the officer call him so that the officer could meet him where he was at.
@MataHarley:
The dispatcher never suggested the truck. The dispatcher asked Zimmerman where he wanted to meet. Zimmerman started to explain where he was at, using the truck as a reference point. The dispatcher would not have even known that Zimmerman had been in a truck, unless he heard the chimes go off when the door opened. The dispatcher wanted an address, not directions to give to the officer. After the dispatcher decided that Zimmerman didn’t live in the area, and Zimmerman confirmed that he did, the dispatcher wanted to set the meeting at his house. Finally the dispatcher suggested the mailboxes, because the only address he had was the clubhouse.
Zimmerman reluctantly agreed, but then realized that it wasn’t really close to where he was at, and figured he could direct an officer from the gate to his location.
@jimrtex
[Transcript]
Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department.
… Zimmerman: Hey we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
—————————————–
Zimmerman gives weak reasons for telling the dispatcher that Martin is suspicious. He says that Martin looks like he is up to no good, or on drugs or something. It’s raining and he is just walking around… looking about.
Was it possible that Martin was talking to his girlfriend on his cell-phone as he walked down Twin Trees? If Martin was talking to his girlfriend on his cell-phone, consider this: Many states have banned cell-phone usage while operating a vehicle. Why? Because it has been proven that most human brains cannot fully focus on safely driving a vehicle while engrossed in cell-phone conversations. I have observed teens walking along engrossed in cell-phone conversations walking into traffic, totally oblivious to their surroundings. They look right and left, bump into people, stop in the middle of foot-traffic and stray over in front of other walkers, etc. That description I just gave does not make them suspicious, day or night, clear or rainy.
Zimmerman is also vague in his directions to the dispatcher. He could have easily said come in the gate on
Twin Trees and cross over Retreatview Circle. Stay on Twin Trees as it dog-legs to the left, then dog-legs to the right. I am near the 2nd dog-leg to the right. Each time the dispatcher tries to locate where Zimmerman is, Zimmerman changes the subject or interjects a another revelation. It almost seems like Zimmerman was intentionally trying to confuse the situation to the dispatcher, or possibly he suffers from Attention Deficit Disorder [and I, by no means, use that term in a derogatory manner.] But I suspect that Zimmerman was perfectly able to be more concise in pinpointing his location, when I look at the map diagram.
Even more simple than that, c.lindy. Finding a vehicle parked on the road isn’t difficult. Come in the northern gate to the complex, stay straight on Twin Trees Lane, round the bend and look for [insert model vehicle] parked on the [left/right] side of the road.
This, of course, has bearing to jimrtex’s comment:
Interesting you think that we lay people types can easily ID a door open/chimes/door close, but you think a dispatcher can’t? I’d say that if the dispatcher didn’t know Zimmerman was in a car, he figured it out by then, just as everyone else in the nation did.
As far as directions, as I pointed out to c.lindy above, it’s not difficult to give directions to a parked vehicle. The dispatcher didn’t know where the mailboxes were either, except that you had to pass them to get to the vehicle, but the dispatcher clearly suggested a meeting at the mailboxes. I’ll point out the obvious… Mailboxes don’t have “an address” either. Nor did Zimmerman state the mailboxes were at the clubhouse, so the dispatcher only knew an LEO had to pass the mailboxes… an identifiable landmark.
WTF? Since it’s not at all unusual for dispatchers to log the personal information of their callers, why do you assume it was to “set the meeting at his house”? I don’t make that assumption at all since I don’t attempt to read to second guess the dispatcher, as you like to do. But, for grins and giggles, were that the preferred intent/meeting place suggested by the dispatcher, he was telling Zimmerman to “go home”.
All the rest of the BS about why Zimmerman chose not to meet at either his vehicle or the mailboxes is just another attempt to play mind reader. Point is, Zimmerman did not want to meet the PD at either location. Simple as that.
MataHarley: I agree that Z could have easily pinponted the postion of his SUV to the dispatcher, but why didn’t he? Z. also says strange things in his 911 call:
— Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He’s got his hand in his waistband. And he’s a black male.
Seconds later: Yup, he’s coming to check me out, he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is.
—————-
Was Zimmerman setting the stage to claim Stand Your Ground to be used later? First, Z. said Martin was starring at him. Then he said Martin had his hand in his waistband and seconds later, he told the dispatcher that Martin was coming toward him with something in his hands. Was Z. creating a taped record for all intents and purposes that Martin was coming toward him carrying a gun in his hand? He also carefully adheres to the Neighborhood Watch suggestions for recognizing suspicious activity. If you put up the Neighborhood Watch suspicious person/people and play the 911 tape, it reads pretty much like a script. Its just a thought.
@MataHarley:
Zimmerman: … Shit, he’s running.
Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?
[door opens, muffled sounds as Zimmerman is apparently getting out of truck]
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighbor[door closes]hood.
Dispatcher: OK, what entrance is that which he is headed towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance.
[Zimmerman apparently begins to move, this is 11 seconds after the report of Martin running. So Martin is 150 feet further away than when he started running].
Zimmerman: [unintelligible]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: OK, we don’t need you to do that.
Zimmerman: OK
[Movement noises are subsiding]
Dispatcher: OK sir, what is your name?
Zimmerman: George – he ran.
Dispatcher: All right George, what is your last name?
Zimmerman: Zimmerman
Dispatcher: And George, what is the phone number you are calling from.
Zimmerman: gives phone number [possibly still catching breath]
So why didn’t the Dispatcher say:
Don’t leave your vehicle, but can you see which way he is running?
Or after he heard the truck door open, Zimmerman getting out of the truck, and door chimes.
Don’t leave your vehicle.
And then after Zimmerman is outside his vehicle, said, “Down towards the other entrance to the neighbor[door closes]hood.” did the dispatcher say in matter-of-fact voice “OK, what entrance is that which he is headed towards?”
My supposition – he wasn’t focused on the other sound but was listening for the answer to his urgent question, and wanting additional explanation. It was only when it sounded like Zimmerman was moving that he expressed concern. Martin was likely 200 feet away, and heading the opposite direction.
Right… so major league baseball players average 7-8 ft per second running to first base, but Martin covers over 13′ per second in your Aesop’s fable? And you just *know* where Martin is when he starts “running”? Or is that “fast walking”, as his girlfriend said. (he refused to “run”, according to her) pffff…
Bored playing with your attempts at mind reading and BS observations, jimrtex. You don’t know jack… just making it up to fit what you want to believe. You’ve now hit the bottom of the barrel on your absurdity. ta ta…
@c. lindy:
There were two phone calls from the girlfriend. One ended up at 7:07 when Martin told his girlfriend he was seeking shelter near a house because the rain was intensifying (this according to Martin family lawyers). The second call happened began at 2:12. So Zimmerman’s phone call began in between.
We don’t know when Zimmerman first observed Martin. It had to be before he called, and for long enough for Martin’s activity to appear suspicious. It could have been for a fairly long time – that seems a bit odd, what is he doing. I better call the police (a couple of minutes rather than 5 seconds).
It might have been on the north loop of Retreat View Circle to the west of the clubhouse. There is a pathway to the apartment complex to the west (where a previous set of burglars was caught in the past). The wall is only on the north and south sides of the subdivision. It looks like they are trying to develop a hedge around the south and west. It is possible that Martin took this route rather than along Oregon and then through the front entrance. It is also possible that Martin took the sidewalk behind the unit on the south side of the west part of the north loop and behind the clubhouse.
In any case, Martin would not have been talking to his girlfriend at least during the beginning of the call. And if the second call began at 7:12:00, he would already have started to run. Perhaps the prosecutors have more accurate timing from the phone company – presumably it is hard to not get to-the-second from electronic equipment. It is a task for the billing programmers to convert this to the minute.
It is possible that Zimmerman is actually reporting what he saw before he called. It is unlikely that he saw a person expeditiously walking along the street and so decided to pull over, and the guy started meandering. So perhaps Martin was running from house to house, or something as the rain intensity increased or lessened. If Zimmerman wanted to observe, he would pull on to Twin Trees, call the police and watch.
There is simply too much time on the phone call for Martin to be walking down Twin Trees at even a slow pace. Martin was 17 YO, and it was at least raining somewhat. There is no report of a walker being used.
There is no reason to presume that Zimmerman thinks all people walking in the subdivision are on drugs. Or even all black males (remember that the neighborhood is 25% black). And he was not sure that Martin was black, until he approached him later in the call. The other burglary suspects were not wearing hoodies, and the previous call by Zimmerman who reported that someone was going up to a specific residence, which the police dispatched to and verified as being secure.
Conclusion: Zimmerman’s call to the police does not demonstrate an utter disregard for human life, nor profiling based strictly on race, age, or clothing. It is quite possible if Zimmerman saw an 80 YO white women wandering aimlessly, that he might have responded differently – going up to her, and maybe calling paramedics. But Zimmerman is not the TSA.
@MataHarley:
Perhaps not. I looked here instead.
<a href="http://www.seminoletax.org/
There is a skipped address there.
Thanks for the appraisal info, since it gives sales information. You are no doubt aware from the Bing and Mapquest maps that the subdivision was built from southwest to northeast.
The first homes were sold for $250,000 and the last homes for $150,000. A builder can’t afford to keep a lot of inventory. They get short term construction loans. If they don’t sale quickly they’re paying the banks rather than their contractors and suppliers. They probably were dumping the last houses at below construction cost. The builder built the homes at the worst possible time.
@c. lindy:
This is bullshit. He gives the wrong address for the clubhouse “one-eleven” vs. “one-one-one-one”. But he says that it is “Retreat View Circle um the best address I can give you is one-eleven …”.
He could have said it was between 3111 to 3261 Retreat View, 1111 Retreat View, and 1110 to 1160 Twin Trees.
After the dispatcher asks for Martin’s race and what he is wearing, and some more description, the dispatcher has apparently typed in “111” and gets a response that the address does not exist. He asks for clarification, and Zimmerman does not understand his question. He responds “tha-that’s the clubhouse”
The dispatcher then asks “that’s the clubhouse? Do you know the – he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
Is the first a question or a statement. It sound’s like a question, but it has the grammar of a statement. I don’t know what he was going to ask with the second question. And then the dispatcher is trying to figure out where Martin is, because he has to dispatch to an address.
Zimmerman says yeah, and then observes that Martin is coming towards me. From Zimmerman’s perspective, that would be more important, than whether the dispatcher comprehended where Martin was.
As Martin approaches, he is able to make a positive confirmation of race, his age, and that he has a button on his shirt. Zimmerman is feeling threatened and tells the dispatcher to get an officer over there. The dispatcher tells them that they are on the way and “just let me know if he does anything, else”. The dispatcher is just then making a formal log of the call and has not actually dispatched anyone, and the officer will not report he is in route for another minute.
This will not be enough evidence to sustain the allegation that Zimmerman was told to wait for the officers. The dispatcher did not know if Zimmerman was in a vehicle, a house, or on foot. And police officers were not on the way. He was just reassuring Zimmerman and asking him to keep watching.
It was Zimmerman who started to give instructions to where he was at. The dispatcher was content with having an address to type into his computer.
While technically Twin Trees goes through the complete subdivision (and intersects both Oregon and Retreat View Circle twice), it might not be visualized that way by residents. The intersections of Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees is not a 4-way stop. Rather Retreat View Circle is the through street. About 3/4 of the units are on Retreat View Circle, with the other 1/4 split between Twin Trees and Long Oak Way. Most people are going to turn on Retreat View Circle, and think of the gate area more like a driveway, with in and out gates. You might even be up over the curb if you literally went straight.
90 degree turns aren’t doglegs, and it is an odd configuration since you have the units that have streets ahead and behind, and only 120 feet in between. Street separation in conventional street grids are much greater. Maybe the dispatcher should have a street map available to him.
He is giving directions, and the dispatcher is confused, when Martin begins running. You might consider that “changing the subject”, but it could have been another minute before the dispatcher could figure out what Zimmerman was explaining. “OK. I think I understand”. Zimmerman: “BTW, the guy ran about a minute ago.”
Later the dispatcher is asking whether he wants to meet the officer, and then asks where at. Zimmerman once again begins to explain where he is at, but the dispatcher gets side tracked wanting an address for the truck – instead of asking what the truck looks like. The dispatcher goes way off course when he asks if Zimmerman lives in the area, and then wants the apartment and address. The dispatcher simply wants to type an address. This will be validated when he is cross-examined. He suggests the mailboxes – and may have already logged it before he asks. Every other REM in the log lags the conversation by some seconds, as he has to decide whether to type it in, and then type it in. This is an exception.
Remember, you as the prosecutor are trying to prove utter disregard for human life beyond a reasonable doubt. You’re not going to be able to win that case, at least using the Zimmerman call alone.
@MataHarley:
Paraphrase:
Dispatcher: Do you want to meet with officer?
Zimmerman: Yes.
Dispatcher: Where do you want to meet?
Zimmerman: Begins to describe where he is at and says you will see his truck.
This is a way point and he is explaining the rest of the route when the dispatcher interrupts.
Dispatcher: What address is the truck is parked in front of.
Zimmerman: [Thinks] and then says he doesn’t know the address and explains why.
Dispatcher: OK, do you live in the area?
Did the dispatcher forget that he was arranging the meeting location.
Zimmerman: Yes, don’t you remember when I told you about the break-ins in my neighborhood?
Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: Buy a clue, it’s a home, it’s XXXX I don’t want to give out the full address.
I guess he didn’t forget after all.
Dispatcher: OK, do you want to meet near the mailboxes.
as an unrelated side note — this comment section is vitually un-navigable in any reasonable amount of time. Is there a way to navigate to specific pages of the comments without cycling through a bunch of previous/next?
You can cheat the URL to leap thru the pages, malize. Using the older/newer function keeps you sequential. But if you want to just leap to the first or second groups of 50 comments, just alter the URL.
Take, for example, the URL for your comment here, which is “http://floppingaces.net/2012/04/03/the-martinzimmerman-timeline-reader-post/comment-page-12/#comment-368753″. If you highlight/delete the “12/#comment-368753“, and replace it with a “3“, you’ll get to the page with comments 101 thru 150…. or the third page. It’s a way to speed to a certain group of comments, but then you’d have to know what the number of any particular comment was if you’re hunting and pecking.
Malize
hi,
if you want the last group, when you open, check on the right if it say ; NEWER ,YOU CLICK ON IT,
IT PUT YOU ON THE LAST GROUP,
IF YOU WANT TO CLICK ON THE BEFORE LAST GROUP; CLICK ON THE;; OLDER. ON THE LEFT SIDE;
AND AGAIN ON ; OLDER WHICH ARE BEFORE THE PREVIOUS,
NOW IF YOU WANT TO GO WAY BACK TO THE FIRST GROUP OF 50 EACH,
THEN YOU CLICK ON AND ON ON OLDER, LEFT, UNTIL YOU DON’T SEE THE SIGN; OLDER,
LIKE I said, they all separated by number of 50 comments each,
so, if you are on the first one, and want to get on the second group, you go on the right side
and click on newer each time until the 50 more, and repeat to click on ; newer. on and on,
those sign s, are on the black bar slim on top, also on the bottom for newer right side,
there are over 600’s of them and CURT, wanted to ease the power of clicking all the way
on the 600 comments, and yes he was righton,
because I experience the slow pace on another post on ; GET OF TEBOW’S BACKS…
IT WENT TO OVER 700 COMMENTS AND MY COMPUTER HAD A HARD TIME TO GET AT THE END, AND THE CLICK ON IT BECAME VERY SLOW,
HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND MY TRYED TO EXPLAIN IT RIGHT, IF IT’S NOT CLEAR, JUST COME BACK
AND ASK. NOW ONLY THIS LAST GROUP HAS THE NUMBERS TOTAL OF COMMENTS WHICH IS 638 INCLUDING MINE
BYE
NOW, IF YOU WANT TO GET AT THE BEGINNING, CLICK TO ; OLDER COMMENTS ON THE LEFT UPPER BLACK SLIM BAR AND ON, WAIT TILL IT GET THERE AND REPEAT ALWAYS WAIT FOR THE MOMENT OF THE CLICK TO GET TO THE NEXT, CLICK AGAIN UNTIL THE SIGN DON’T SHOW ANY MORE, THEN YOU WILL GO LEFT FOR THE NEW ONES NEXT SAME WAY ON THE RIGHT SIDE,
IT MEAN
@MataHarley: @malize:
I’m going to talk to the designer to see if there is a way to get some kind of link for that.
MATA
thank you,
that is better than what I was trying to say,
bye
jimrtex said: “90 degree turns are not doglegs.”
http://golf.about.com/cs/golfterms/g/bldef_dogleg.htm
My reference to dogleg comes from a golf term…
Dogleg Definition: The “corner of the dogleg” is the spot along such a hole’s length where it bends and turns in a certain direction, such as dogleg right or dogleg left.
Open the link, view the illustration and you may agree it pretty well fits the bends on Twin Trees.
MATA
hi, the lawyer for GEORGE ZIMMERMAN ASK TO CHANGE THE JUDGE JESSICA, FOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST SHE SEEM TO BE CONNECTED WITH SOME ONE WHO IS CONNECTED WITH….TRAYVON SIDE
BYE
Bees, the female judge, only a year on the bench, might have considered recusing herself shortly after the beginning. She is not connected with the Martins in any way. Her hubby is a commentator for a news organization… CNN, I believe. Certainly a judge shouldn’t have to step down from every case simply because her spouse is in the news business. But in this particular high profile case, I think it would be expedient for her to do so. Zimmerman’s attorneys need only file a request, documenting the reasons the judge may have a conflict of interest. But in her case, I think she should just volunteer stepping aside. Would most definitely worry about nightly “pillow talk”, regardless of which side I was representing.
That judge is not the same judge who said the affidavit for probably cause was sufficient to proceed to trial.
Zimmerman’s lawyers had also requested, and were granted, the court sealing of all documents. Now the media is in an uproar about that decisions, saying it wasn’t given public feedback options. IMHO, all the documents should be sealed, and the media should not have access. All will come out with Florida’s televised trials.
ADDED SLIGHT CORRECTION: The ties are a relationship between the hubby who works for the same firm (and “for”?) a CNN legal news analyst. He’s not the news analyst himself… knew CNN was in there somehow. The judge offered to recuse herself last Friday. Also reported in the Orlando Sentinel. Suspect she’d like out of this case anyway, being so new to the bench. Heckuva way to start a budding judicial career.
MATA
yes, of course, only one year of experience also is might be hard for her to handle
such a controversial case, which is also decided by the bounty on his head, and riots promised if they don’t like the last decisions, which they won’t like any, because they have already made up their mind and control the hate thermometer,
bye
Bees, the judge does not make “the decision” of innocence or guilt. A jury does that. The judge “referees” the trial, keeps the conduct of the legal representatives in line, and imposes any sentence within legal guidelines in the event of a guilty verdict. Judges will, however, often take into consideration a jury’s sentencing recommendation or opinion. The jury doesn’t decide the sentence, but they are allowed to state an opinion thru their lead juror.
In the end, whoever is upset with any verdict can only blame the jurors, or view one or both of the lawyers for either side as being inefficient. But that’s the same with any trial outcome.
The “hate thermometer” you refer to is not confined to the NBPP, Sharpton, Jackson or others. There are plenty of people here that have already labeled Martin as a thug and a thief, a punk kid that was casing the neighborhood for booty. I find it odd that people forget the actual victim in the event is Martin, not Zimmerman. The victim is the guy who lost his life. The trial is to determine if the man who took that life did so under justifiable circumstances.
@c. lindy:
The west part of the loop of Retreat View Circle is what I think of as a dogleg. I’d be confused by your description. What if the dispatcher or the police officer don’t play golf? Maybe Zimmerman doesn’t play golf.