#OccupyWallSt fails because it misses the real targets [Reader Post]

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#OccupyWallSt has given us some memorable images, but arguably none more memorable than these:

#OccupyWallSt has made a list of demands. Some are simply ridiculous but some have merit- specifically the concerns over the cost of education and money’s involvement in politics. The problem is that the numbskulls in the #OWS movement are so self-obsessed that all of their efforts are way off target. They place themselves in Zucotti Park and somewhere in UC Davis and aspire to shut down the harbor in Portland.

The question is- what can that possibly achieve?

Their concerns about costs of higher education are truly meritorious. Higher education is the biggest scam in town. Since 1988 the rising cost of higher education absolutely dwarfs the cost of living increases.

In fact, it has risen far more rapidly than the cost of medical treatment.

When my oldest son entered Boston College the tuition was $35,000 per year. When my second son graduated from BC seven years later tuition was over $50,000 per year.

That’s obscene. And for what? I thought it was robbery, but we paid it.

While #OWS wants all debts forgiven, some are definitely accumulating faster than others.

California’s public universities enacted the highest average tuition increase, 21%, of any state, the College Board finds. Steep state funding cuts to higher ed were significant factors in pushing up tuition and fees nationwide.
But even excluding California, tuition prices at such colleges rose significantly nationwide this year, an average of 7%, the College Board found. Apart from California, Arizona and Washington had the highest rates of tuition increases at public four-year campuses, 17% and 16% respectively, while Connecticut and South Carolina were lowest, at 2.5% each.

Sandy Baum, a policy analyst for the College Board, said the recession’s toll on tax revenues prompted some states to slash higher education funding. “California seems to be the leader of that” trend, she said.

Yet the study also showed that significant increases in federal grants and tax credits are shielding many students from some of the tuition pain even as unemployment is driving more people to enroll at colleges. “As the states have stepped back, the federal government to some extent compensated for the higher prices,” Baum said.

Nationally, in-state tuition and fees at public four-year colleges and universities average $8,244 for this school year. With room and board, the average cost of such schools is $17,131, up 6% from last year, said the report, which is being released Wednesday.

Significant tuition increases are nothing new to UC Davis. This is from 2009:

The first tuition hike, which takes effect in January, will raise undergraduate tuition to $8,373. The second hike kicks in next fall, raising tuition to $10,302, said university spokeswoman Leslie Sepuka.

Students who live on campus could pay up to an estimated $17,200 in additional fees that include the annual cost of books and housing, according to the system’s July 2008 finance guide.

The January increase of about 15 percent is more than double the average public university tuition hike last year. On average, tuition and fees at four-year public universities nationwide increased 6.5 percent, or to $7,020, since the previous school year, according to data from College Board.

A ten year analysis of tuition increases found that UC Davis tuition increased 185%, second only to the U of Arizona at 231%.

It seems to me that if one is going to protest, one ought to protest at a venue a which a goal might be achieved. That is to say that if you need gas, you don’t go to the pharmacy. These protests should have been conducted at the home of the University Chancellor, and at the homes of the University trustees. Instead, protests put tents up on campus. The Chancellor, Linda Katehi, ordered the students and the tents removed.

In her first statement about the incident, Katehi justified the police’s action by stating that the protesters offered her “no option but to ask the police to assist in their removal.”

As criticism mounted, Katehi threw the cops under the bus, as gutless politicians and academics are wont to do. An obviously flustered Katehi scrambled to redirect the blame away from her.

In an interview this morning on KQED’s Forum, UC Davis Chancellor Linda P.B. Katehi said she expected campus police on Friday to remove tents peacefully without interfering with students’ rally.

Katehi said that under UC policy, tents are not allowed on campus “for health and safety reasons.” She said police were asked to dismantle the encampment out of concern for the safety of the students.

“The group that set this up was not UC Davis students,” she said. “They had individuals that were not affiliated with the campus. The police were called for nothing else but a very peaceful dismantling of the equipment…They were not supposed to use force.They were not supposed to limit the students from having the rally, from congregating to express their anger and frustration.”

You can’t help but wonder if the tear gas would have come even more quickly had the students set up camp where a protest would have been effective- at Katehi’s home and the homes of the trustees.

Money in politics is another very legitimate issue, and probably the most contentious money issue in politics is insider trading. There is really not anything more painfully hypocritical in government than this. The same activities which increased the net worth of the Pelosi’s by 62% last year sent Ivan Boesky, Jeffrey Skilling and Martha Stewart to jail.

Nancy Pelosi is everything that’s wrong with government. #OWS should be camping outside her office in Washington and outside her home in San Franciso. Instead, protesters defecate on the flag and on police cars, they leave 200 pounds of feces in Santa Cruz, they stalk children on their way to school and they scream at Wall St.

They urinate on banks and hurl Molotov cocktails at banks.

Why? What did banks do that was illegal? Nothing.

It may have been immoral, but it was legal.

Banks do what politicians allow them do. There is no purpose in harassing people who are doing nothing illegal. If change is desired, then energies ought to be directed so as be effective. This is the terminal stupidity of OccupyWallSt and the reason for its failure. They’re waiting for gas at the drive-in window of CVS.

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Fantastic summary.

I disagree with the comment “banks do what politicians allow them to do”. The truth is “banks do what their customers” allow them to do. If people are stupid enough to do business with an expensive bank (as opposed to a more reasonable community bank or credit union) then they deserve what they get. Most bank fees are optional ie. if you don’t want to pay overdraft fees, don’t write checks when you don’t have the money! Pretty damn simple. People need to start to accept resposibility for their own actions and quit trying to layoff blame on others for their own stupidity.

Why? What did banks do that was illegal? Nothing.

There seems to be a widening gap between “illegal” and “immoral”. Particularly when it comes to the matter of shaking down the general public for every nickel possible.

And the latest ploy is another missing of the target!
Occupiers Plan to Occupy Retailers on Black Friday.

WHY????
To protest “the business that are in the pockets of Wall Street.”
So they are aiming at only retailers that are publicly traded.

But what good will that do for them?
Black Friday got that name because that is when a sales business FINALLY goes into the black for the whole year!
What will happen if these occupiers send a bunch of these businesses into consolidation or liquidation?
Fewer jobs when they finish college, that’s for sure!

Although most people don’t think of the Bible as a war strategy manual, one of the Apostles said this about warfare:
Aim your blows so as to hit your target, not hit the air.

Good words.

@Nan G: I saw that, Nan. All they would do is hurt those who would try to save themselves a dollar because they need to.

As if OWS’ers care.

@Greg:

There seems to be a widening gap between “illegal” and “immoral”. Particularly when it comes to the matter of shaking down the general public for every nickel possible.

No one despises Goldman more than me. I would have let them fail, as I would have allowed GM to fail.

We bailed out AIG for the express reason that it owed Goldman $13 billion.

The thing is, if you don’t like the way it is, stop voting for those idiots who made all this possible.

Shortly after the OWS ploy began I wondered aloud if it were not an engineered event to do what Obama wanted to do but was prevented from doing after 2010:
Get more money to his main constituents, government employes in UNIONS.
Overtime for police in Occupy cities has already cost those cities $13 million, according to a survey by The Associated Press.

Cities had not planned for these extra costs in their budgets, so either they get that Obama-promised bailout OR other city services suffer.
IF cities had stuck to the law of the land as opposed to a political decision to let them occupy illegally, a ton of that cash would not have been squandered in this way.
IOW, some of these city leaders have been complicit in this engineered nightmare.

@Nan G: Retailers are as out-of-control as banks and politicians. They are currently working on destroying Thanksgiving. Last year Toys R Us beat the Black Friday rush by opening on Thanksgiving. This year a bunch of other big names, including Wal-Mart, Target, Macy’s, Kohl’s, Best Buy, Bass Pro Shops, Lowe’s, Michaels, Sears and Old Navy, are joining the stampede.

I don’t care if you want to shop on Black Friday (me? I’ll be home by my fire with a good book!). But I do think Adbusters’ suggestion that we all consciously fast from consumerism periodically is a good one.

As for Black Friday creep turning Thanksgiving into just another day in the long, long Excessmas season, in this economy, employees of these stores can hardly afford to decline to work, even on Thanksgiving. But the rest of us need to show the restraint the stores are lacking and vote with our feet: stay home Thursday and give thanks for all we have (it is still called *Thanksgiving*, after all!), rather than rushing out acquisitively to acquire still more.

Street garbage lefties on a cheap ’60’s trip

@Cry, Beloved Country:
Hehe.
I love your sliding of the goalposts on what adbusters is up to, CBL.
THEY have come out with a plot to destroy publicly traded businesses by making Black Friday a bust.
YOU have slid their plot over into mere suggestion territory: we should fast from our consumerism periodically.

So, are you going to be glad if you no longer have an Amazon or a Macys or a Target or a WalMart or a all-of-the-rest next year?

Because IF these occupiers get the result they say they want, that is the end of these businesses.

Not being a rampant consumer, myself, I might not feel the pinch as fast as younger people.
(See all the down-dings I got for my conservationism?)

I live near the Ports Long Beach/Los Angeles.
Incoming cargo container shipping is off by about 30% this year.
Fewer goods here to sell means fewer salespeople to sell them.

But the Occupiers don’t seem to care.
One of them the Post noted opposes working at a job at all UNLESS you want to have a mate, a house, children and a pet.
So, the idea that regular folk will be losing jobs in droves because of the acts of Occupiers is irrelevant to them.

@Nan G: No, Nan, you’re trying to over-simplify my position. I never slid any goal posts. My critiques of OWS are here and here.

But I do think that if we’re going to win the culture war, we’re going to have to stop demonizing the folks on the other side. Reflexively dismissing everything they say alienates them and everyone in the middle. Of course, we don’t notice that because we’re happily listening to the wild cheers of the 17 people in our little corner of the restaurant.

I think Adbusters co-founder Kalle Lasn’s critique of mainstream popular Western culture (that it’s based on wealth, power, fame, sex and recreation) is spot on. Notice I said popular Western culture, not historic Western culture. Also notice (see my posts above) that I disagree sharply and fundamentally with his (and OWS’s) proposed solutions. But if I agree with that little bit that I *can* agree with, then I have a place from which to actually engage in dialogue with folks in the (in my neck of the woods) Occupy Portland movement.

And I think that dialogue is way more productive (in changing hearts and minds) than the name-calling and demonizing that seems to be the reflexive posture of most of my conservative brethren (and cistern :-)).

@Cry, Beloved Country:

1) Many of us have tried engaging them politely. It was a waste of time. They are not capable of reason.
2) Many of us have reverted to being less than polite after years of being abused and smeared by them.
3) For decades the GOP has tried compromising. The dem idea of compromise is we give them everything they want while getting nothing in return.

Great article with some excellent information. But in reality what we are watching is the methodical destruction of our democracy as many of us have known it by the left, and others who want something for nothing. We are all reaping what we have all sown. Sounds preachy I know, but if their ever was an appropriate time for that phrase, it’s now. And has been for years. For years many of us had hoped that the politicians we kept rejecting would do something about the increasing insanity that had taken hold our nation, but instead they did as they had always done, they found a way to profit from it. Now we have whole generations of young people who were educated in our schools and by some parents that they are entitled to everything for nothing. Just one of the liberal mantras that they heard everyday. And then even our own politicians, presidents reinforced all the liberal beliefs by refusing to address any of the growing problems in their infancy. So here we are now, with a president and other politicians who are using these thugs to advance their own agenda, while the mainstream media buys into the so-called protesters demands. While the republican politicians ignore, and or hide under their desks.
Will things improve? No. This is only a stage. We have no true leaders with the character required to take a stand against this planed and organized anarchy. We will not see improvement till another “side” comes onto the scene, and our leaders think its safe enough to do the right thing with-out losing their precious and self-enriching careers. Unfortunately, based on other countries experience with socialism/communism when the same things happened to them, most of them were sold out by their politicans.

BTW, the topmost photo of the person desecrating the flag was actually taken in Portland, Oregon (SW Madison St. and Park Ave) on March 18, 2007. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Occupy Wall Street protests. Bush was still in the White House. The 2008 economic train wreck hadn’t yet occurred.

Personally, I won’t even acknowledge that the guy in the photo is a fellow countryman unless somebody shows me positive ID. He looks more like some sort of internationally traveling skinhead riffraff. One can only hope that the photo was clicked a split-sceond before the accelerant-soaked flag burst into 3-foot high flames.

@Greg:

Good research, Greg.
Have a link?

I think the photo is included for its content rather than it being an actual OWS photo.
After all:

Madison Occupiers Lose Permit Due to Public Masturbation

New Yorkers Fed Up With Noisy, Defecating Protesters

OccupyOakland Out of Control: Rats, Graffiti, Vandalism, Sexual Harassment, Public Sex and Urination

Portland Police: Buckets of Excrement Scattered Around #OccupyPortland Camp

San Diego Occupiers Splatter Vendor Food Carts with Blood, Urine

Eureka, CA Occupier Defecates in Bank

Seattle, WA Occupier Defecates on Public Sidewalk

Philadelphia, PA Occupiers Vandalize Dilworth Plaza With Graffiti and Feces

Ottawa, CN Feces, Urine, and Blood Covered Blanket Hung Over Tent

Santa Cruz, CA Occupiers Suspected of Dumping 200 Pounds of Human Feces Near Veterans Building

London Occupiers Defecate in St. Paul’s Cathedral

(I limited this to one headline for each Occupy City, BTW.)

@Hard Right:

Re: #3) I’m not advocating compromise. I’m advocating civility, dialogue, and bridge-building.

Re: #2) Yes, I see that. I think it’s a tactical mistake and an ethical shortcoming.

Re: #1) a) I’m sorry your attempts were unsuccessful. But since when do we let our conduct be governed by the conduct of others?
b) I find it unsuccessful most of the time, but not all of the time. If individual people have value (and we say they do, right?) then it’s worth wading through the failures to find the successes.

DrJohn

wow, you hit on the nail, and you are right,
KATEHI ‘S LACK OF GUTTS FOR FEAR OF RETRIBUTION, FROM THE STUDENTS,
STILL IS NOT RIGHT TO BLAME THE POLICE
they did their jobs and they did not have any injuries themselves either,
they are learning from other occupied TOWNS where some where hurt and HAD TO GO TO HOSPITAL for being benevolent with the occupiers. the fact is that AMERICANS DON’T NEED THE OWLS,
BUT THEY NEED THEIR OFFICERS OF THE LAW, MORE THAN EVER NOW.
funny, in the previous generation WITH PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS, THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN KEPT UNDER CONTROL NOT GIVEN TO UNIONS CONTROL
AND you would have seen a lot of parents coming to grab their TEENAGES BY ONE EAR AND GET THEM HOME WITH NO FAVORS.
THAT IS NOT HAPPENING AND VERY SAD TOO.

@Hard Right: Once you give up on engaging in conversation with the other side and with the majority in the middle (who are pretty much universally alienated by all the name-calling and snarkiness), you’ve given up the fight. At that point, you’ve given over the keys of the city to the other side’s emissaries and retired to the Old Soldiers’ Home to trade yarns with your mates and wait for the mushroom cloud.

Cry, Beloved Country
this was so well said, and so sad it’s happening for many who try to make them come to reason,
and failed, because they where use to be so tolerant for letting it happen,
and now no words will do,because they have sold to the inciter in chief, and they have listen to too much hates words
to divide the AMERICANS AGAINST EACH OTHER,
THIS MUST BE CHANGE, IT WENT TOO FAR ALREADY.

@Nan G:
But…but…but…isn’t public pooping Constitutionally-protected political speech?

/sarc

Much truth in your post, drj… but also something else I want to point out. In the case of the UC infestants, they indeed try to go after “the target”… being the Board of Regents. However the infestants can’t police the radical and violent elements within their own group, and that meeting had to be postponed because of credible threats. (went thru this with Tony Duncan on the other thread) And when you have a movement with the violent, uncontrolled elements, any of those perpetually disregarding the rule of law have to be assumed to be in the mix, and that threat of their spontaneous violence is very real.

But if any of these whiny entitlement brats had a clue how things work, they’d realize how the funding for tuition works, and that even the board of trustees or regents have little control over their budget. You see, the Univ of Cal board did their second tuition hike with an eight month period back in July.

While everyone can agree that higher education is completely out of whack with reality, few care to address the problem which is shared among federal legislation (as usual, not giving enough money… LOL), gratuitous public endowment programs that have aided the run away costs, plus the collective bargaining agreements, educations unions and pricey pensions.

This past October, WaPo did a brief article on the skyrocketing of college tuition. This has been danced around since 2009, when the US News noted that the rising costs were a result of “rising spending on administrators, student support services, and the need to make up for reductions in government subsidies.” One problem is that the administrators overhead dwarfs even the professors or classroom costs. Also notable is the cost of “counseling” as risen astronomically. ah… one can only imagine what mandated “counseling” must entail…. heh

Another out of control university cost is security… looking around, that’s pretty self evident these days. And it sure isn’t confined to the university overhead, as now urban cities are in hock millions because of the infestations taking place.

The other problem is that public higher education, spending most of their time feeding at the teat of both state and federal funds, are finding their source of cash drying up.

INRE the legislative direction I mentioned above, many of these articles cite a study by Cornell economist, Ronald Ehrenberg, back in 2009. Ehrenberg cites federal government policies as one of the main reasons… i.e. they want more taxpayer funds:

The federal government has contributed to the cost pressure on selective private institutions in at least three ways. First, the Justice Department’s breakup of the collective agreement of several elite institutions to target their financial aid to students with the greatest need has led to the increased use of merit aid and more expensive financial aid packages.

Second, the value of the maximum Basic Educational Opportunity Grant (BEOG) has not kept pace with inflation. Viewed in 1997 constant dollars, in 1975, the maximum BEOG grant was $4,000; in 1997, it was $2,700. Private institutions have had to make up the difference in the form of institutional financial aid, putting more pressure on tuition.

Finally, the cost of doing research has skyrocketed in recent years as the government has put pressure on private research universities to reduce their indirect costs rates, and, at the same time, raised its expectations for matching funds in grant applications.

Also back in 2009, it was documented that while the public colleges were experiencing the largest hikes (because there is never enough federal and state money for them…), the private institutions were experiencing the lowest tuition hikes in decades. Much of this has to do with the accountability of the trustees as compared to the shared “blame”, so to speak, of reduced taxpayer funds by governments, and trustees unwilling to rein in their own costs of overhead.

But here’s the rub, the infestants can’t really whine at Congress since their lib/prog representatives, and this POTUS, assumed all student loans as a product of government lending with the O’healthcare legislation. You’d think that would make them happy… thrusting the responsibility of their borrowed funds… that they don’t want to pay back… on the backs of the taxpayers.

Where they are clueless is that, eventually if they actually decide to work instead of mooch off of society, they are also taxpayers. While they won’t be paying their student loans as part of their planned protests, they will still suffer the consequences it has on the US economy. Since their irresponsibility to pay their debts is now shouldered by the nation at large… at a time we can’t afford it… they are simply taking a bad situation and making it worse.

So the short summary of all of this is, they are *sorta* whining to the right people when they threaten the UC Regents with violence, but the solution they desire… a pass on their individual fiscal responsibility… frankly tanks their chances of any fruitful wealth accumulation in their lifetime. It’s been proven over and over in history that welfare societies – even for such a lofty cause as education – are unsustainable.

One has to wonder what would happen if the federal and state governments totally stopped funding these institutions altogether, and they instead had to compete with the lower tuition private colleges. Instead of the easy taxpayer money, they’d’ have to actually manage funds and overhead, and provide an education package that the parents and students were willing to pay for.

But one thing is for certain. They haven’t got a clue as to who to protest. The trustees/regents are subject to overhead costs that includes union employees, pensions, and bankrupt state and federal governments. So they have little avenue save to increase tuition, or lobby for increased funding… which generally just exacerbates the problem. Like Congress proves, throwing more money at irresponsibly managed public entities never works.

@Cry, Beloved Country: I don’t care if you want to shop on Black Friday (me? I’ll be home by my fire with a good book!). But I do think Adbusters’ suggestion that we all consciously fast from consumerism periodically is a good one.

What you suggest is a mixed bag, CBC. While I agree we have most definitely become a culture of “stuff”, as George Carlin said, it’s also the carousel that makes our economy go ’round… consuming. We’ve been giving away our textiles and manufacturing since the 1970s, and becoming a nation of “shoppers” instead.

That’s why it’s odd to hear Tim “tax cheat” Geithner, up there first saying we have to learn *not* to place ourselves in massive debt from spending and save more, but the next day say the economy will not recover until people begin consuming again, and retail thrives as a result. If people don’t buy, retailers don’t have sales and manufacturers don’t have product orders.

Actually, there will be no economic recovery of any kind until housing worms it’s way thru the correction… faster if the government doesn’t help. Even Warren Buffett is finally admitting this. But then it would be easy for the not so economic literate to again use their houses as piggy banks instead of improved investments. If they spent their equity (assuming we ever see equity again soon…) on maintaining and improving their home, it would at least lend support to the real estate related businesses (i.e. home improvement stores, construction, remodelers, manufacturers of related goods etal). This income stabilization would then spill over into other areas.

Unfortunately, I think we are decades away from this reality. The correction will take time. And considering the debt piling on from those with entitlement mentalities.. thinking the taxpayer should pay and owes the young the world… we may not have that time available. It is not a pretty picture overall, I’m sorry to say.

Insanity breeds more insanity when we have the proverbial Greg, the idiot box, monitoring the accurate time of sh*t pictures with his colleagues in spirit defecating in public. You dolts gave new meaning to “Lewinsky” now I add a new term for a natural function needed to self cleanse the mammalian body to be posted and accurately defined in the next OED and Merrian-Webster dictionaries as the word “O-Wash” as in “taking an O-Wash”. I am certain that in general conversation using this term in proper vernacular will convey the message directly with no need for added reverberation.

@MataHarley:
Terrific comment, Mata H.
I was watching a financial news network (Bloomberg, CNBC or Fox Business) when a frightening stat was shared: American colleges/universities have as many non-teaching staff on their payrolls as they do teachers/professors.
That is so top-heavy.
No wonder the cost of higher education is so high.
These are primarily union workers.
The retired staff must also be quite expensive.
And they contribute zilch toward a student’s higher education.

Banks have been forced to hand out student loans for between 3 and 4% interest.
As a result those same banks do not have cash for more pricy loans, like for homes, new businesses or cars.
Over $1 Trillion is the outstanding college loan money owed to these banks.
That is well more than what all credit cards holders owe their banks.
As you point out, there will be no recovery until housing is allowed to hit bottom and find its new value.
Obama has put nets under housing to prevent this.
So we have to wait until Obama is either gone or Obama stops acting like Obama.

A west Georgia business owner is stirring up controversy with signs he posted on his company’s trucks, for all to see as the trucks roll up and down roads, highways and interstates:

“New Company Policy: We are not hiring until Obama is gone.”

VIDEO HERE

It is not because we want to hurt the economy.
It is because, as this businessman (Bill Looman) explains: We

“Can’t afford it. The way the economy’s running, and the way my business has been hampered by the economy, and the policies of the people in power, I felt that it was necessary to voice my opinion, and predict that I wouldn’t be able to do any hiring.”

Occupy Calgary is finished. Empty tents and mounds of trash were hauled away. The rest of the squatters, maybe 5% at night, were ticketed for tresspassing. The 20C below temperatures, at night, did them in. Huge clean up bill coming up. You expect the taxpayer to wipe you after you defecate. May the fines be huge and your student loans be insurmountable. Grow up and accept responsibility! Like Newt said, take a bath and go find a job.

@MataHarley: I am just curious Mata, do you see the so-called protesters as just another symptom of the major problem that we are currently facing in this nation, and other nations as well. Even the so-called liberal havens like the socialist countries? Some people I know see this one symptom as a problem by itself, they don’t see the whole picture. It’s not really about tuition, the banks, jobs, those are all secondary to the primary problem and or goal depending on your side. They either refuse to admit it because of their liberal beliefs and or because they feel that they are betraying their republican politicians. This one topic which is nothing more than a symptom that when combined with all the other interrelated problems is leading to a systemic breakdown of our society as a whole. Only the next stage in the disease of liberalism. Yet no one is doing anything about any of it, as usual. Your last sentence in your post leads me to believe that you realize that this one symptom is much more frightening than many people realize. Just curious. Not trying to pick a fight! I will have many of those this long week-end with liberals in the family. And no, I know your not a liberal!!!

@Cry, Beloved Country:
Majority in the middle? Most Americans are ignorant when it comes to politics. Notice I say ignorant and not stupid. Given the facts they tend to make good decisions. Absent of that, they usually fall into being led by the nose by the media. Sadly it takes an abysmal economy for them to pay any attention to politics despite its impact on their everyday life. Even then many have at best, very little knowledge of the issues, how to solve them, and even less interest in exploring solutions.
That is why I try to educate people who seem to want that education. Given up? On unthinking dems, yes.

@Hard Right: I hate to say it but your right. Look at the election of Obama and Carter as just two major examples of how many americans will flock with the crowd, regardless of any concrete information that is available for them to educate themselves on. They remind of how many people will all go buy one car, because they see other people driving that car, and or with a new hair style they rush out and get the same cut, etc…. Most people can tell me all about football, but very little factual information on the people they elect to govern them. Its really friking sad when you think about it.

@Gary G. Swenchonis:

You mentioned something I forgot. How too many can tell you about how Simon voted on the X-Factor over the past few weeks, but not about politicians who could limit their rights or impose more burdens on them. To make things worse, they don’t want to know .

@Nan G, thank you for the compliment. One has to work pretty hard to measure up to your own contributions, ya know… LOL

Yes, most definitely educator pensions and perks are a problem with overhead… thank the unions, which of course are helping fuel the infestants… But also a problem is the top heavy admin to teacher/classroom spending. I’m not sure, but I suspect there is also a union for non-teacher employees as well. Never checked, but it wouldn’t surprise me. Knowing you, you’ll probably dig that info up.

@Gary G. Swenchonis: I am just curious Mata, do you see the so-called protesters as just another symptom of the major problem that we are currently facing in this nation, and other nations as well. Even the so-called liberal havens like the socialist countries? Some people I know see this one symptom as a problem by itself, they don’t see the whole picture.

The short answer is yes, absolutely.

The longer qualified answer is twofold.

First, entitlement programs nurture an entitlement mentality. While each nation state has their own degrees of entitlement… retirement ages, taxes, etc… all lend themselves to a culture of population that feels they do not have to plan for their golden – er, aluminum – years because the government (aka the taxpayer) will be taking care of them. That ranges from healthcare to income. Take, for example, some of the Euro-socialist nations, where they anticipate retiring at the ripe age of 50 or so. Now they riot against austerity, still never realizing the social welfare system doesn’t work, and never has thruout history.

The second is a new entry… using mob rule/thug mentality to effect change. Forget elections and allowing the time to structure a government that would allow participation of all, like Iraq did. While this solution to the first entitlement mentality problem is more dangerous than the first itself, it can’t exist without that personal mandated belief that the government should take care of the individual, and equalize lifestyles.

What the uprisings in both the ME, and now Italy, have demonstrated as successful (and taught the young) is that you can put a small segment of and unruly and uneducated population out into the streets, angry and armed with whatever, and the world does a collective “tsk tsk” when anyone attempts to enforce rule of law.

Because law enforcement is damned if they protect the rights of others who are not in the streets, and damned if they don’t, mob rule tends to have a very uncomfortable advantage in a nanny, PC conscious world. Apparently, to some, the “cause”… if they agree with it… is enough justification to throw the rule of law in a civil society out the proverbial window.

But it is basic laws that separate a civil and free society from tyranny or utter chaos.

Instead, the lessons of the Arab spring, and of places like Italy, is an ugly and dangerous one to the young entitled types. That lesson is that mobs in the street can force resignation of elected officials.. and all with the nod of approval from the int’l world. It matters now what happens in the wake of that resignation. If they don’t like it, they’ll stock up on the Molotov cocktails and do it again.

Such is the case of Egypt, the first time wasn’t enough. They knew if they did not wait for the Sept elections.. tho Mubarak agree not to run… that they would be under military rule until the necessary “new government” was in place. Now they riot because they don’t like military rule, and want immediate change yet again.

Change to what?

When one form of governance is removed instantly, you must replace it with another. Basic acclimation to freedom and civil society is evidently only for the patient. Mobs are not patient. All Egypt has accomplished is to allow the MB to step into the void they are deliberately creating.. whether out of desire or out of stupidity. And it has done a serious disservice to the young. That type of “reform”… which is usually just another word for chaos… is only accomplished via mob rule our outright rebellious warfare by hodgepodge armies (like Libya). Their awakening is still to come, but it’s already on the horizon. I do not suspect they will fare any better than Egypt. Perhaps worse, now that all the tribes are armed, and not willing to give up that power.

There is a stellar op-ed by a supporter of the UC demonstrations – Casey Givens – that appeared after the infamous and controversial pepper spraying of dissident students and their non-student muckraker radical peers. Givens editorial, Deconstructing Occupation, offers a humbling lesson to the angry entitlement infestants, as they strive to compare their situation today with that of the Civil Rights movement. This, as Givens rightly points out, is an insult to genuine reform movements.

And it comes down to not only the method and handling of law enforcement, but also whether they are whining about negative or positive “rights”.

The biggest fallacy Occupy Cal subscribes to is false analogy. On the posters of their encampment, in the speeches of their rallies and even on the opinion page of The Daily Californian, several occupiers have compared their struggle to both the Free Speech and Civil Rights Movements of the 1960’s. If the likening of suburban students’ tuition troubles to African-Americans’ systematic discrimination isn’t absurd enough, there are two major differences that invalidate any analogy.

First, regarding their objectives, Mario Savio and Martin Luther King’s movements fundamentally differ from Occupy Cal in that they sought protection of negative rights rather than positive ones — a critical distinction in political theory. Negative rights oblige inaction, like the inaction of violating another’s life, liberty or property. Contrarily, positive rights oblige action, like the governmental action of providing a good or service. Whereas Savio’s fight for the First Amendment and King’s campaign for legal equality were struggles to secure negative rights, Occupy Cal claims a positive “right to education.”

Not only does Occupy Cal differ with respect to rights, but it also contrasts in methods as well. While all three movements champion civil disobedience, it is only those of the ’60s that truly follow in Mahatma Gandhi’s footsteps.

After all, a fundamental tenet of civil disobedience is to accept arrest when protesting injustice. Both Savio and King respectably submitted to incarceration, with the latter writing in his “Letter From Birmingham Jail” that “One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty.” Contrarily, the occupiers squeal at the sight of the police, having demanded “amnesty for all protesters.”

Agree or disagree with Occupy Cal’s message as you may, no honest thinker should fall for their false analogy to the celebrated movements of the ’60s.

I will say, many of the pro anarchist student activists took issue with Given’s history lesson. But then, let’s not let reality get in the way of a good anarchist movement.

Reform accomplished by mob rule and angry thugs, who trample the rights of others, is never positive reform. Unfortunately the young and desperate don’t have enough real life time under their belts, or responsibility, to have learned this lesson.

But they sure have learned how to play the media and victim roles… as a few here have aptly demonstrated with their unapologetic support for anarchy, and the deterioration for the rights of others.

@Hard Right: That one was much more accurate than my own example.I don’t know how many times I wanted to either barf and or just weep when i would hear my staff discussing TV shows and know all the answers, yet when one young lady would ask a question about politics all you would see would be these blank staring eyes.

Gary G. Swenchonis
this occupy mob, is the twin brother of the ARAB SPRING movement. which took many lives,
before the change of leadership, and still taking many lives after and again now,
and now the EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND THE MEDITARENIAN COUNTRIES, AND THE WESTERN COUNTRIES are all experiencing the riots people in the street protesting to change the leaders again same thing,
now in the AMERICAS, WE HAVE A SIMILER PROTEST, THIS ONE HAS BEEN START DIRECT FROM THE OBAMA GOVERNMENT, HE ALSO TOOK A BIG PART IN THE CHANGE OF ARABS COUNTRIES,
THIS is getting me trouble and I THINK that it might have a deeper intent and dangerous too,
many thinkers lately are warning us of great danger for AMERICA, the greatest in history,
so it lead to me questioning just a while ago, what came to mind is that occupy mob is lead for an end agenda, think of the WORLD POWER ORGANISATION possibility overtaking the USA WITH THE HELP OF THIS PRESIDENT WHO HAVE SHOWN A BIG LIKING FOR THEM WHICH WOULD USE HIM TO CONTINUE HIS DESTRUCTION OF AMERICA IN ORDER TO MAKE IT EASY FOR THE WORLD POWER TO TAKE OVER SUBTLY IN A COUP OF LIKE OBAMA SAID ONCE 5 DAYS.
YOU ALL CAN THINK I ‘m loosing my marble, but I had to say it, because those occupations are not normal and we cannot pass it as normal,
unless you think the devil has taken phisycal life with his crew directly in the WH

Mata you hit on many excellent points. “But it is basic laws that separate a civil and free society from tyranny or utter chaos.” And please Mata i am not nick picking either. That statement is a truism. Yet I would like to add
basic laws, values, norms, and traditions” I get so frustrated with people who scream “we need more laws”. no we don’t, if only we had judges, and politicians who would enforce the laws we already have” But those in charge have sold out their values, norms, and our societies traditions so subsequently everything continues to fall apart.
We have everything we need right now to do as our ancestors, and grandparents did except and its a big exception we don’t have values and character that they had. Would we have seen any of this get to this point decades ago? No! because this is not about women/minority rights like back then. This is about the total transformation of our nation into something that many Americans if they were to wake up and smell what the the media is feeding them would demand that these bums be put in jail. And my fear as well as some others I know is how do you stop this disease now that its begining to run rampant in the whole system? When we have politicians who know that their jobs will be secured as long as they have more voters on their side, the liberals, the ignorant and just plain stupid people, and the republicans who are waiting to see which side is winning. But as always the liberals are masters at manipulating any negative aspects of the protests.

Man, Hitler would have loved to have such lemmings as you all.

@Hard Right:

Fox News viewers less informed about current events than those who don’t watch news at all, study finds

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/fox-news-viewers-informed-current-events-don-t-watch-news-study-finds-article-1.981257#ixzz1eaa6EvQn

@Hard Right:

Fox News viewers less informed about current events than those who don�t watch news at all, study finds

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/fox-news-viewers-informed-current-events-don-t-watch-news-study-finds-article-1.981257#ixzz1eaa6EvQn

Libtard, a few bits of that “study” that drones like yourself deperately want to believe as it justifies your bigotry towards Conservatives.

“In a survey of 612 New Jersey natives…”
That is such a large swath (roll eyes).
On the OWS protesters:
Here it was MSNBC viewers who got it wrong the most – watching the left-leaning network was linked to a 10-point increase in the likelihood of misidentifying the demonstrators.

MSNBC viewers did have a 10-point higher chance, however, of correctly identifying Mitt Romney as a frontrunner in the race for a 2012 GOP nominee. Fox News viewers didn’t benefit — or suffer — in this category, a fact Cassino called “very surprising” given the amount of attention the network has paid to the candidates.”

So Conservatives feel he isn’t a front runner and that makes them wrong? Riiiiight.

“The most informative outlets were found to be the Sunday morning news shows as well as outlets like the New York Times, USA today and NPR.”
And if you believe that I have some ocean front property for you in AZ.

Thank you for making that so easy. Then again you usually do. Thinking just isn’t your strong suit. Now run away like you always do since you know you aren’t smart enough to actually debate.

BTW libtard, the nazis were socialists with similar beliefs to your own. They simply took their Jew hatred further than leftists like yourself do.

@Gary G. Swenchonis:
I hear you. A younger lady on my team asked why there was so much in the news about Qadafi , his death, and why he was hated. When told why (Lockerbie bombing in 80’s and human rights abuses) she asked, “well what has he done lately?”
I refered to her as one of our “plants” who needed “watering” on a daily basis.

@Gary G. Swenchonis: That statement is a truism. Yet I would like to add basic laws, values, norms, and traditions” I get so frustrated with people who scream “we need more laws”. no we don’t, if only we had judges, and politicians who would enforce the laws we already have” But those in charge have sold out their values, norms, and our societies traditions so subsequently everything continues to fall apart.

That’s true, Gary. Being as it was a generic type of response, I’m not advocating “laws” in lieu of moral values. I have often said here that you cannot mandate humanity or love, and you can not pass a law that does away with evil in one’s heart.

However since we were discussing the harbinger events of today’s social mentality worldwide, I wasn’t going to bring a morality point into the discussion across such a vast array of cultures. Certainly what is considered “moral” in the ME is not the same as here.

libman: Man, Hitler would have loved to have such lemmings as you all.

Don’t be absurd, libman. If conservatives were like Hitler, you would have been one of the first in the oven a long time ago.

@Hard Right:

“In a survey of 612 New Jersey natives…”

New Jersey elected Corzine as Governor.

‘Nuff said.

Dr John, an excellent contribution, the impetus for this thought provoking commentary; however, we may be missing the felonious nature of the movement, the ambiguity of the term occupy. By definition, Occupy sounds benign:

oc·cu·py [ ókyə p ]
live in place: to live in or be the established user of a place such as a home or office
engage somebody’s attention: to take up somebody’s time or attention
fill space or time: to take up a space or an amount of time

However, when the occupation takes place under conditions that cause resentment or ill-feelings, it becomes more akin to a military occupation, an entirely different concept.

Free speech was never meant to encompass the illegal occupation of public or private property for extended periods of time; thus an OWS encampment begins to take on the defining characteristics of a military occupation and the benign sounding definition of “occupy” begins to acquire a more sinister nature. The ingredients are there for mob violence and the administration is desperately hoping this ragged bunch of miscreants will evolve into a political voice that will intimidate the public and coerce them into accepting the present state of corruption and failure as normal. But mobs riot and take on directions of their own, much like an infected tooth; the fistulas tract can erupt in the mouth or it can journey to the nervous system or the brain and kill the host overnight.

The OWS movement is festering, it seems insignificant, and it may well be but little more than a pimple on a pig’s ass, but it is best to deal with this corruption before it spreads.

SKOOKUM
HI,
AMERICA, is in a critical and desperate situation, because those
in power from bottom to top level agreed to start that occupation and agree with all the corruption going on there since the beginning of false rhetoric they are inciting the vulnerable youngster of the society
as well as paying the poor and mentaly challenged to occupy and repeat what one of them start to shout,
so there is no one to stop them, even as the LAW OFFICERS ARE TRYING THEIR BEST AT HEAVY COST OF INJURYS, THEY HAVE NO SUPPORT FROM THE PRESIDENT WHO MUST TAKE RESPONSABILITY FOR WHAT HE STARTED OUT OF HATE AND INTENT TO HURT THE TARGET HE SET UP TO GET MORE MONEY TO SPEND ABROAD. HE WONT DO IT, HE PUT THE BLAME ON CIVILIENS EVEN THOSE WHO VOTE FOR HIM ARE SAYING IT.

http://www.breitbart.tv/obamas-thanksgiving-message-im-thankful-thankful-to-serve-as-your-president-and-commander-and-chief/

Obumbles – The most divisive, calculating, self absorbed, non-worldly, etc.. etc…President EVER – Had A Thanksgiving Message for all of ‘us’; “I’m Thankful to serve as your President and Commander and Chief.

My Reaction? Commander AND in Chief? I’m Not.
2013 cannot arrive fast enough…

@ilovebeeswarzone: Thanks for the response Bees! I think your right, unfortunately. This has been a long time in the making and now it’s comming to a head. Regardless of who is behind it, no-one has a solution to stop it, and or does not have the political fortitude to stop it. We will just have to ride it out now, and see how far it goes, and not just the so-called protests. The protests could stop in one day, two days but the battle for the hearts and minds of Americans is in full swing now and will be into the unforeseeable future. But I agree with those who think that this battle will only get worse until we have real conservative leaders who will lead the effort to stop the socialization of America. Things will probably have to get alot worse, and drag on for until that someone comes forward, and the American people have lost all faith and hope in the current crop of losers who act like they are leading us now. But in reality are taking as little risks as they can so as not to upset the status quo, and to keep their jobs. Happy Turkey Day Bees! Belated!

@Hard Right: I have run across many people who for some reason think that because a few years, and or decades have passed that murderers should be forgiven, and or their crimes forgotten. That mind-set has always bothered me, because when people are murdered they are normally forgotten about in no time, unless it’s a large group of people, but even these days we hear how these killers need to be set free. People like the airhead you mentioned never think about the real victims, and those who loved them and how so many lives have been changed for the worse. And of course the horrible example that a society sets by letting killers go is another whole story.