The Face of the New Libya, Pt II – Lies and proof of atrocities grow (Headline H/T DrJohn)

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Love and praise for Gaddafi's killer
To tag team Dr. John’s first documentation on the “face of the new Libya”, it seems more of the world is waking up that the new face may likely surpass the old face in ugliness and human rights violations.

It was just three days ago that Libyan rebel forces claimed they had captured Gadhafi’s son and heir-apparent, Saif al-Islam, alive. In the flurry of truly stupid “Libyan freedom fighters” videos, capturing their war crimes and disregard for what the west would consider freedom and justice on their various new media, most bloggers were already hitting the bandwith with tongue in cheek estimates, likening al-Islam’s anticipated lifespan in the hands of the rebels to that of a gnat.

But war crimes are not the only apparent face of the new Libya, as it turns out lying is another of their less than impressive traits. CBS News reports that not only is al-Islam alive, but fleeing Libya for parts unknown in Nigeria. This isn’t the first time that the rebels have put forth false testimony and propaganda of their progress, prematurely declaring victory more than once over the months and claiming custody when there was none.

~~~

UPDATE: H/T to Nan G. Saif al-Islam apparently feels that the new Libya justice will be none too fair as well, and is reportedly trying to broker a deal with the Int’l Criminal Courts for his surrender, and to be taken safely into custody. Meanwhile, NATO was hoping to pull out no later than Oct 31st, while the interim PM of the NTC, NTC, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, is requesting NATO firepower until the end of the year.

~~~

Not unlike the dictator, there are still questions about the events leading to the the capture of yet another of Gaddafi’s sons, Mutassim Gaddafi, just a little over a week ago. Mutassim’s fate eerily echoes that of his father’s when shown in a video first as alive, and smoking a cigarette in custody… then mysteriously is dead from bullet wounds to the abdomen and neck. The rebels were, again, busy with their cell phone videos.

But while westerners set aside their normal respect for rule of law and justice, gleefully rejoicing in a particularly bloody end, the arguments some of us have been making about this “new and improved” Libya looking suspiciously like (if not worse) than the old Libya, is gaining traction as more proof surfaces supporting the the Libyan rebels committed war atrocities.

This goes far beyond just Gaddafi, as mass graves with hundreds of bodes are excavated… the count approx 300 in one alone at this writing.. many with their hands bound behind their backs, executed.

Ali Tarhouni of the National Transitional Council excuses the rebels as young boys who had witnessed murders of family and friends, and praised their “self control”. Hey.. you can’t make this stuff up.

Another graveyard of over 575 is supposed to contain “mercenaries”… many also summarily executed.

This is, of course, the so called “freedom fighters” to whom the French openly supplied arms. The same group who, today, Hillary calls on the UN for war crimes investigations, but was also responsible for paving the way for the US to also supply arms. If America did, they sure aren’t disclosing that today.

Obama talks to Leno about Libya 10-25-11
This didn’t stop the non-stop campaigner-in-chief, Obama, from calling Libya “… a recipe for success” on Jay Leno. Instead, the POTUS seemed detached from the less than freedom like behavior of the vigilante mobs and their multiple executions in warfare.

“Not a single U.S. troop was on the ground,” he said. “Not a single U.S. troop was killed or injured, and that, I think, is a recipe for success in the future.”

Nudged by Leno in a notably sober first segment, Obama reflected on the meaning of Gadhafi’s death, a gruesome and chaotic demise recorded on cellphone video for all the world to see. The president argued that Gadhafi had had an opportunity to let Libya move on a path toward democracy peacefully.

“He wouldn’t do it,” Obama said. “And, obviously, you never like to see anybody come to the kind of end that he did, but I think it obviously sends a strong message around the world to dictators that people long to be free, and they need to respect the human rights and the universal aspirations of people.”

Now what unsuspecting Libyans are left with is vast groups of armed tribes, with an apparent distorted view of “freedom” and “justice”, who are at war with other tribes. The battle against the man who kept both the tribes, and the terrorists in the region, at bay is over. The new battle is which tribe will be the most well equipped with the largest arsenal to come out on top.

Libya’s Transition Council interim Prime Minister, Mahmoud Jibril, must know what’s coming because he’s bugging out… saying that “Libyans should be allowed to vote within eight months to elect a national council that would draft a new constitution and form an interim government.” But he’s not leaving power without declaring that the new Libya’s future would be founded on an Islamist tone.

As the Edmonton Sun points out, a new cycle of tribal culture and warfare awaits, and Jibril has neither the stomach or the weaponry to be battling the rebels, now armed to the hilt.

A few hours before the hunt for Gadhafi ended, Mahmoud Jibril, the head of NTC and acting as the temporary prime minister of Libya, announced he will be resigning soon.

Jibril’s explanation, though vague, indicated that the new Libya is headed into the uncharted waters of tribal rivalries and conflicts that were kept in check for 42 years by the now slain despot.

Jibril is a U.S.-trained economist and a technocrat with no stomach for the predictable conflict ahead, nor does he have the tribal resources of guns and money needed to wage this conflict.

It is also predictable that the eventual outcome of who eventually comes out on top in Tripoli will be those better armed, better organized and ideologically most resolute.

In other words, Islamists in Libya connected with the al-Qaida network of jihadists, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and funded by Saudi Arabs.

So who’s in charge for the long haul… assuming that tribal nation even makes it? Apparently those poor kids with stellar “self control”, wielding their weapons from the West. But fear not… now that Tunesia has falled to their Islamist party.. the first to win power since Hamas in 2006… I’m sure they’ll be happy to help.

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Mata, Praise be to Allah and Obama, the people of Libya will find a new Islamic freedom after months or years of bloody conflict still ahead. May the most ruthless and bloodstained Islamic Thug lead his people to freedom. This is the standard recipe for freedom, it may seem barbaric to those who don’t understand the tenets of a Socialist revolution by the people, but trust in the glorious revolution and watch freedom grow. This is the Socialist Revolution that Obama and Hillary want to unleash upon the world! Is there no limit to their vision of freedom?

“U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta pointedly declined Tuesday to say whether the Obama administration intends to seek military ties with Libya’s new government, amid uncertainty about islamist influences there after the demise of strongman Moammar Gadhafi. Asked at a news conference whether Libya should be a U.S. military partner and what such a relationship would entail, Panetta said the U.S. would take its lead from NATO…” Robert Burns …..

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Panetta-No-decision-yet-on-US-Libya-military-ties-2234836.php

“President Obama is empowering radical Islam across the Arab world. He is presiding over both the American decline and the rapid advance of our mortal jihadist enemies. From the Middle East to North Africa, the Arab Spring has turned into an islamist winter. Contrary to the administration’s claims, the popular uprisings have not led to a “rebirth of freedom” – the emergence of liberal democracies in distant Arab lands. Rather, Muslim fundamentalists have used street protests against corrupt, autocratic regimes as a Trojan horse to expand Islamic militancy.
……” Jeffery F. Kuhner

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/25/obamas-arab-winter/print/

“When the Arab Spring uprisings broke out earlier this year, many foreign-policy experts were alarmed that the revolts took the White House by surprise and concerned by the Obama administration’s lackadaisical response.(snip) The rise of the islamists constitutes a major step backward for modernization and progress. Arab women are seeing their rights reduced, reversed or destroyed. Middle-class businessmen will find it more difficult to interact with the global economy. Religious minorities, primarily Christians, are being subjected to increasing violence and intimidation.
…..” From Arab Spring to islamist Winter (unattributed Editorial)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/25/from-arab-spring-to-islamist-winter/

Only a fool or Obama supporter (See? I’ve been to the Occupy XXXX here locally and met them!)
could have NOT seen this coming.

The phrase “one man, one vote, one time” was coined by former US diplomat
Edward Djerejian in comments on the implication of an Islamist electoral victory in Algeria. (992)
Wiki quote:
Djerejian, in an official speech as Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs, coined the description of the purported democratic goals of Islamic radicals as “One man, one vote, one time.”

Looks like he was right.
Just as in Egypt, we see the moderate front man stepping down to make way for whatever strong man/group takes over.
Remember the Egyptian election?
Even the Coptics voted for the strong Islamists.
I wondered why.
One Coptic said it was to ”get it over with” sooner rather than bloodily later.
That Coptics are being wiped out was no real surprise.

Ever read, The Strong Horse: Power, Politics, and the Clash of Arab Civilizations by Lee Smith, Middle East correspondent for the Weekly Standard?
REVIEWER:

Smith takes as his prooftext Osama bin Laden’s comment in 2001, “When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse.”
What Smith calls the strong-horse principle contains two banal elements: Seize power and then maintain it.
This principle predominates because Arab public life has “no mechanism for peaceful transitions of authority or power sharing, and therefore [it] sees political conflict as a fight to the death between strong horses.”
Violence, Smith observes is “central to the politics, society, and culture of the Arabic-speaking Middle East.”
It also, more subtly, implies keeping a wary eye on the next strong horse, triangulating, and hedging bets…..2010

Every time Obama acts with regard the Middle East, he makes the USA look like the weak horse.

The left is happy over this. They like to pretend that they are glad a “brutal dictator” has been removed. Considering their fondness for leftwing America hating dictators, thir claims ring hollow. The truth is, they are happy that this is bad for America. They also think they will be gaining another ally in the war against “America’s imperialism”.

You and your cohorts are naive to think this was a war for freedom—Muslim or otherwise. Really it was a war of economics—like all wars. But, it does give opportunity to bash anti-capitalists and socialists, instead of looking at the real problems with this government and economy. Of course it’s always easier to sit back and criticize, rather than take real actions for change.

IF YOU HELP THAT KIND OF REVOLT
IT’S obvious to see, that you are one of them,

@Hard Right:

The left is happy over this. They like to pretend that they are glad a �brutal dictator� has been removed. Considering their fondness for leftwing America hating dictators, thir claims ring hollow. The truth is, they are happy that this is bad for America. They also think they will be gaining another ally in the war against �America�s imperialism�.

And you’re pretty silent on how Bush cozied up to this American killer, HR. Why is that?

Boo-hoo, an American-killer got what he deserved! Boo-hoo!

Another graveyard of over 575 is supposed to contain “mercenaries”… many also summarily executed.

I could just see you back in the days of our revolutionary war, Mata. Your bed would have been continuously wet.

My, Mata, DrJohn, bees, and Skoo are in agreement with Louis Farrakhan !

Like I said, you guys are, in reality, liberals and your agreement with a vile snake such as Farrakhan is but the icing on the cake.

Read it and weep!

Ivan, no one even if they deserve it,
nobody should do atrocity, specifically when there is another legal way to get them in paying for their abuse,
and you miss on your last one,
we condemn the brutal lynching, cutting of part of his body, bleeding him and to finish with the video clip
by shooting him as he was dying,
you know, LOUIS FARrAKEN liked him for other reason he saw the good side of GADDAFI, that his right to freely expose it and side with him, here the focus was not for siding with GADDAFI BUT ON THE WAY HE WAS TORTURE,
ALTHOUGH SOME OF OUR SMART GROUP MENTIONNED THE REALITY THAT GADAFI was no more a danger for AMERICA and there was no need to replace him for a far worse
leadership, and LOUIS FARRAKAN SAID IT TOO,
and he was right on.
and you are the snake here

@Ivan:
@Ivan:
@Ivan:

You are losing your touch, Ivanski. Normally you are able to demonstrate just how big of a douche bag you are in one post, this time it took you three posts…

@anticsrocks:

You are losing your touch, Ivanski. Normally you are able to demonstrate just how big of a douche bag you are in one post, this time it took you three posts…

Typical ad hominem attacks by the faux-rightist on FA. You can’t derail my arguments, so you attack me personally.

You lose, as always, and again.

@MataHarley:

Honestly, Herr Ivan’ski… do you think no one notices when you draw first blood? We are so entertained when you play the fool.

Typical ad hominem attacks by the faux-rightist on FA. You can’t derail my arguments, so you attack me personally.

Mata, just admit it, you’re politically aligned with Farrakhan than Reagan.

Liberal1 [objectivity]
you should ask for actions at the government in power, not to the CONSERVATIVES ,
not yet, but watch them in action in 2012, you will have the sight of the real AMERICAN DREAM CELEBRATED ALL OVER THIS LAND, AND ABROAD BY AMERICANS,

@MataHarley:

Just admit, Herr… you’re politically aligned with the KKK

Can’t refute my arguments, so as usual you engage in ad hominem attacks. Sad.

Skooks#1 Is it too late to bring back Gadhaffi’s son?
H.R. This “chip off the old block” will surely be better for American interests. No?

@Ivan: Besides proving you are a douche bag, you have proven you know how to cut and paste…

Amazing.

You know when I first started posting on FA, I tried to see things from your point of view, Ivan.

The problem was, I just couldn’t get my head that far up my ass.
.
.

The indiscriminate killings of Africans by these so-called ‘freedom fighters’ do not count to be protected by the leading- from- behind- man, but yet -his behavior on behalf of blacks here in the US is almost laughable, no word on these war crimes he supported with his decision to bomb anything in sight.
These freedom fighters are a mental deranged bunch, screaming out to a god who tells them to rejoice in cutting of people head, sodomize them or commit some other despicable deeds. I just can’t comprehend these bastards who are so evil to treat any human that way, and they will do to us what they do to their own, as soon as they get a chance. A war is coming to us, and this intentional blunder by the current admin will bring bloodshed to us right here, and although Barry may not be in power anymore – history will judge him as the biggest clusterfark, narcissist, and arrogant schmuck with an outright hatred towrds a country that has given him everything.

Interestingly, Qatar indicates that it had hundreds of soldiers on the ground during this affair (see: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2011/Oct-26/152269-qatar-admits-it-had-boots-on-ground-in-libya.ashx#axzz1bteCKKqQ). I was wondering whether the Libyan rebels had really organized themselves into a fighting force in such a short time. Guess the answer is more or less no. I have to assume that the use of Qataris was so that these foreigners would be largely indistinguishable from native rebels in the news footage; otherwise it would have made more sense to send the French Foreign Legion.
As for Farrakhan, I have not followed Ivan’s link to see what he has to say (I understand he was friendly with Khaddafi). But even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and it is stupid to change a well-thought-out opinion just because someone obnoxious happens also to hold it.

@MataHarley:

Really? Now who engaged in the first ad hominem attacks here? And who is ignoring their not-so-distant stamp of approval on lynching with the KKK?

Yes, you did start it. I apologized earlier this year for any negative comments I made. Then, when I took Curt to task for his statements-note I only attacked his position on an issue- you came in and verbally attacked me. YOU ATTACKED ME. (Apparently you are Curt’s guardian here at FA).

So we had a clean slate, and you pissed it all away.

Now, I don’t expect you to own up to the death of our cease-fire, that would be asking you to be a person of honor and you lack honor, but I do think that it should be restated here at FA that you were the one who couldn’t maintain standards of civil discourse.

Have a grate day, Mata.

@bbartlog:

Good catch, bbartlog.
I think the only times we actually saw any ”rebels” was when they were driving around blusteringly, shooting aimlessly, celebrating by shooting up in the air and killing Gaddafi.

Obama has throw his liberal minions a bone to chew on with his latest “dubious victory” over the nut Gaddafi. His base is starved for any news that can be made into good news, so they can rejoice and give thanks to Obi. while ignoring all of his other broken promises, and failures. I don’t think I have ever seen the old and worn out looking Hilary as happy as she has been when talking about the death of Gaddafi. But now the Arab Spring is being seen for what it really is, and has been. But like all of Obis failures they have to be painted over with a Happy Face for his supporters who only two years ago despised and ridiculed Bush for taking out terrorists on the battlefield. But now they have to choke that same bone down and act like they like it. Loyalty to a Leader, any leader can mean, and often means that the individual must at times sacrifice their on belief and value system for the greater good of the party, and smile while they are doing it.

Gary G. Swenchonis
hi, right on the beam, as always,
they have forgotten their loyalty to the AMERICAN, and if they see wrong on their leaser,
their responsability is to protect the AMERICANS WHICH ARE THE ONE WHO PUT THEM THERE ,
they have forgotten their basic responsability to the people, because they follow the wrong
which is destructive for AMERICA,

@ilovebeeswarzone: Thanks Bee!

Well, this pretty much blows DrJohn’s, Mata’s and all the other haters of the New Libya out of the water. It appears that Gaddafi’s killers are to be tried by the new Libyan government.

So, will there be a public apology by Dr.John and Mata over their previous threads attacking said new regime? I wouldn’t hold my breath, given that intellectual honesty is severely lacking at FA.

;-P

@Ivan: You said:

Yes, you did start it. I apologized earlier this year for any negative comments I made. Then, when I took Curt to task for his statements-note I only attacked his position on an issue- you came in and verbally attacked me. YOU ATTACKED ME. (Apparently you are Curt’s guardian here at FA).

So we had a clean slate, and you pissed it all away.

Now, I don’t expect you to own up to the death of our cease-fire, that would be asking you to be a person of honor and you lack honor, but I do think that it should be restated here at FA that you were the one who couldn’t maintain standards of civil discourse.

Wow, you whine like a little girl. No wait, scratch that; not even my 2 1/2 year old daughter whines like you do. What a douche bag you are Ivan; yes that’s right, I am attacking you so you can whine about it.

Get over it and get over yourself. You act as if you are so important that we all need to walk on eggs shells, agree with everything you say and never criticize a position you take. Trouble is, you rarely take positions, you usually just call people names in giddy delight at your supposed intellectual wit.

By the way, when you go to all the trouble to whine like this and then attempt to close with a witty repartee at least spell it correctly…

Have a grate day, Mata.

*snicker*
.
.

IVAN,
hi,
you are going too fast there, YOU said IT APPEAR,
Well, APPEAR is not confirming,
let’s not jump the gun, wait for the actions to make the words real.
bye

@MataHarley:

No thanks to Ivan. Thanks, however, to voices like Drj, Aye, myself and others here at FA (but not Ivan), Hillary, the Brits, the UN, and… dare I say it… Farrakhan.

I knew you didn’t have it in you to admit you were wrong.

sad.

@anticsrocks:

Get over it and get over yourself. You act as if you are so important that we all need to walk on eggs shells, agree with everything you say and never criticize a position you take. Trouble is, you rarely take positions, you usually just call people names in giddy delight at your supposed intellectual wit.

Oh I’m over it. I just don’t care for Mata’s revisionism. I can give as good as I get, and then some, as you’ve seen how I man-handle you on these boards.

😉

@MataHarley:

That would be you… along with your KKK buds who also love vigilante justice.

You really are disgusting equating my desire to see an American-killer brought to **SOME** Justice with the Klan.

You really will, like your liberal confederates, stoop to ever decreasing lows.

Have you no shame, Mata? Have you no shame?

@Ivan: You said:

I can give as good as I get, and then some, as you’ve seen how I man-handle you on these boards.

You couldn’t “man-handle” the business end of a sheep, Ivan. Although I am sure you’ve tried.

The only thing you give is constant whining – for instance:

You really will, like your liberal confederates, stoop to ever decreasing lows.

Have you no shame, Mata? Have you no shame?

Let me call you a WAAAAA-MBULANCE, or maybe we just ought to find a crying towel for you.

Face it, you think it is okay for the thug Ghaddafi to be tortured and murdered. You care not what that portends for the “New” Libya. You also don’t care that the rebels have mass graves of hundreds who got in their way.

The only thing more amazing than the rebels taking the time to bury those they mass murdered is the fact that you sympathize with them.
.
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@MataHarley: Shhhh, don’t tell Ivan that, he probably wants to believe that they stopped and gave them full Islamic death rituals and burials… 🙂

.
.

The Cliffs Notes version of #42:

Image Source,Photobucket Uploader Firefox Extension

Again, like Aye, you lack intellectual honesty and honor. You couldn’t sincerely apologize if your life depended upon it:

Well, I apologized to Ivan for wounding his feelings… A genuine apology.

Oh stop whining, Ivan sweetie. There was nothing “uncivil” about my comment to you. But I’m genuinely sorry that I pointed out… evidently in a way that annoyed you.. that you are way behind the threads of the intel, the timeline, and the whole FA debate going on as to why we’re offended at Obama’s statement.

“stop whining”??? That is how one begins an apology? You never in your wildest dreams made a sincere apology. Your “apology” was laughable, in the extreme.

So basically everything you said in #42 was a joke and therefore a waste of the time of the readers here at FA.

Have a good weekend, Mata.

Okay, let’s look at my apology:

I wish to apologize to anyone whose feelings I have hurt here at Flopping Aces. My remarks were caustic and uncivil.

I apologize to all the posters and readers of Flopping Aces, primarily Mara, Zack, Retire05, HardRight and any one else who I might have made a ad hominen comment about.

Please accept my apologies.

Sounds pretty sincere to me.

Now Mata’s “non-apology”:

Well, I apologized to Ivan for wounding his feelings… A genuine apology.

Oh stop whining, Ivan sweetie. There was nothing “uncivil” about my comment to you. But I’m genuinely sorry that I pointed out… evidently in a way that annoyed you.. that you are way behind the threads of the intel, the timeline, and the whole FA debate going on as to why we’re offended at Obama’s statement.

And she calls it “genuine”, another internet lie by the woman who lacks honor and integrity.

I’ll pray for you, Mata.

@MataHarley:

This is just as absurd as your Farrakhan comments, to which I responded that you should just link yourself up with the KKK… pointing out just how silly your observations was. Another reminder from recent archives.. ahem, above… for you.

Oh poor Mata. All I pointed out was that you and the rest of clown-squad at FA were in agreement with Farrakhan- a bigoted anti-Semite in the extreme.

If the shoe fits, Mata, wear it.

@MataHarley:

I guess, since you find lynch mobs all-American in principle and worthy of celebrating, that puts you squarely in the middle of the KKK camp, with your white sheet hoodie.

Typical Mata: Couldn’t refute the Farrakhan analogy so she stoops to ad hominem attacks. Yep, disagree with Mata and you’re as good as the KKK.

Sad. Such a small-minded person.

@Ivan:
@Ivan:
@Ivan: Dude….you’re just embarrassing yourself. Really. Just stop, you are making it much worse. I mean you got your ass handed to you by Mata (spelled M-A-T-A, not Mara as you spelled it in your “apology”), then as if that wasn’t bad enough you just continue to whine about it. Have some self respect, man.

Shut up about it already.

@anticsrocks:

@Ivan: Dude�.you�re just embarrassing yourself. Really. Just stop, you are making it much worse. I mean you got your ass handed to you by Mata (spelled M-A-T-A, not Mara as you spelled it in your �apology�), then as if that wasn�t bad enough you just continue to whine about it. Have some self respect, man.

Shut up about it already.

The truth hurts, doesn’t it.

What you can’t stand is that unlike you, I’m not Mata’s bitch. You are.

IVAN
lay of my friends here, you have done more insults than any you could have receive,
you cannot split yourself from those who surround you,
or you stop your insults and discover how eazy it is to debate with respect, and you will never be attack by anyone. bye

@Ivan: I have come to a few conclusions about you, Ivanski:

* it doesn’t take much to push your buttons

* your entertainment value only slightly outweighs your annoyance factor

* unfortunately your self-esteem is non-existent, for the only way you can make yourself feel better is by trying to denigrate others

* either your emotional growth was stunted somewhere around the time you were in junior high, or you really are only 12 years old

* you are a very slow learner, much like our current president

* you suffer from the belief-bias effect in your political leanings and worldview

* you have a very Eastern version of self construal

and lastly,

* this curious attachment you have with Mata greatly hinders any introspection you might otherwise have

There you go, Ivan. Now you can either read this and give some thought to what I have said, or you can come back with more ad hominem attacks.
.
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Just caught this photo of the courthouse in Bengahzi, Libya.

Who’s flag is that little new one, you might ask.
Well……
It is the flag of al Qadea!

Will Obama explain why we installed al Qaeda in Libya?
Probably not.