Have The “Rebels” Won In Libya? Not So Fast…..

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Sure doesn’t sound like the “rebels” have won

A nervous limbo, punctuated by gunfire, took hold of Libya’s capital Monday, one day after opponents of Col. Moammar Gadhafi rolled triumphantly into the central square here—damping hopes by rebels and their international allies that the strongman’s supporters would melt away.

Machine-gun and antiaircraft fire could be heard throughout the day in Tripoli, as residents said loyalist gunmen had taken up positions in several neighborhoods. Rebels who attempted to turn an old police academy into their military headquarters quickly came under heavy fire, sending a stream of casualties to a makeshift clinic.

Green Square, where rebel troops had celebrated Sunday after marching largely unopposed into Col. Gadhafi’s stronghold capital, appeared to be a no man’s land. Roads leading to the square were made impassable by what locals said were loyalist snipers.

Amid the uncertainty, one of Col. Gadhafi’s sons, thought to have been captured by the rebels a day earlier, showed up at a Tripoli hotel and invited foreign journalists on a tour of the city.

The scenes in Tripoli bucked the day’s widening international sentiment that forces loyal to Col. Gadhafi, who has ruled the oil-rich Mediterranean country for nearly 42 years, had been all but neutralized. Instead, the leader remained unaccounted for as fighting continued. The unease suggested instead that the regime’s end, while broadly expected, may bring more bloodshed, this time in a densely populated urban theater.

As I write this reports are that Gadhafi has given a speech on the radio….looks like civil war is not too far behind:

Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi said on Wednesday that his withdrawal from his Bab al-Aziziya headquarters was a “tactical move” after the compound was leveled by 64 NATO air strikes.

Speaking in an address on a local Tripoli radio station, which was reported by Al-Orouba TV, broadcasting in conjunction with Al-Rai TV, Gaddafi also vowed “martyrdom” or victory in his fight against NATO.

I’m hoping the scumbag is killed sooner rather than later, but I also have a feeling that the wake left after his death will be something other then rosy. These so called “Rebels” aren’t prepared for this, nor is NATO:

Six months after their revolt broke out, the day-to-day leadership of the anti-Qaddafi movement remains an unanswered question, with no figure emerging as the rebellion’s undisputed leader. Even the common struggle against Colonel Qaddafi never masked latent divisions between east and west, between political leaders and fractious militias, and, some say, between liberal public faces and Islamists in the rebel ranks.

The rebels from the western mountains who stormed into Tripoli on Sunday night often roll their eyes at their ostensible political leadership, the Transitional National Council, which is based in the eastern city of Benghazi…

…Even so, rivalries began emerging on Monday well before Tripoli was fully subdued, along with questions about the rebels’ credibility. Officials of the Transitional National Council in Benghazi said Sunday that their forces had captured Colonel Qaddafi’s son and would-be successor, Seif al-Islam el-Qaddafi. But then on Tuesday he appeared at a Tripoli hotel housing foreign journalists — moving freely around the city — and even before then some in Tripoli appeared not to trust their Benghazi leadership to handle him.

And if and when these “rebels” do take over…who are they loyal to?

Less than four years before Libya’s popular opposition movement took up arms and revolted against Moammar Gadhafi with enthusiastic U.S. backing, anti-Gadhafi fighters chose another tactic to hit back at the hated dictator: they joined al Qaeda and tried to kill American soldiers in Iraq, according to U.S. documents.

In 2007 the U.S. Department of Defense snatched more than 600 records of al Qaeda’s foreign fighters in Iraq and discovered nearly a fifth of the foreigners were from Libya, according to a report by West Point’s Combating Terrorism Center released later that year. Within those records, the total put Libya second only to Saudi Arabia in total fighters and “far and away” the largest provider of foreign fighters per capita to the terrorist organization.

Almost all of the Libyan fighters hailed from the east — cities like Benghazi, effectively the current opposition headquarters; Ajdabiya, which was the site of intense fighting overnight; and Derna, a city currently held by the rebels.

“The Libyan pipeline to Iraq,” the report says, “is firmly established.”

The report ties the surge of Libyan recruits to a formal pledge of allegiance to al Qaeda by a major anti-Gadhafi group in 2007.

And now they have a mass supply of weapons:

No one can be sure who controls the Libyan government’s weapons stockpiles, a stew of deadly chemicals, raw nuclear material and some 30,000 shoulder-fired rockets that officials fear could fall into terrorists’ hands in the chaos of Muammar al-Qaddafi’s downfall or afterward.

One immediate worry, U.S. intelligence and military officials say, is that Qaddafi might use the weapons to make a last stand. But officials also face the troubling prospect that the material, which was left under Qaddafi’s control by a U.S.-backed disarmament pact, could be obtained by Al Qaeda or other militants even after a rebel victory is secured.

…A cache of hundreds of tons of raw uranium yellowcake is stored at a small nuclear facility east of the capital.

As I wrote earlier, I’m hoping that Gadhafi’s reign is over….but worried at what will take its place. That worry was well placed in Egypt and Pakistan. And now it’s Libya’s turn.

As far as the war itself, I will leave you with a quote from Mata:

all the Arab nations of the world have made note that to be friends with Obama’s US is to mean they invade your sovereign territory (Pakistan), he will throw you over the side to the sharks (Egypt, Yemen, Israel, and attempted in Bahran). But if you remain our enemy he will leave you alone (Syria, Iran, Somalia etal)

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Ya know, I was mocked for my skepticism with more than one comment on the other thread. I’ve been suspicious about all this since there’s been no cheering throngs of grateful citizens, and only a bunch of grinning guys in tees, with guns, doing thumbs up for cameras in empty streets. Are they trying to convince us that a bunch of rogue rebels in the dozens by groups have defeated Gaddafi’s military machine in Tripoli?

Gosh darn… and I’m still waiting for that danged Easter bunny…..

Now I hear that they looted the Gaddafi compound, stealing guns, valuables and the family medical records. ???

But your NYTs link has some pertinent paragraphs that should (but won’t) drive fear and deserved skepticism into the hearts of the rah rah Obama, rah rah NATO faction that does live here on FA.

The rebels from the western mountains who stormed into Tripoli on Sunday night often roll their eyes at their ostensible political leadership, the Transitional National Council, which is based in the eastern city of Benghazi. Many complained that their national leaders did not give them enough support, even after Western governments began allowing them access to the frozen assets of the Qaddafi government.

“The N.T.C. did not work so hard to bridge the gap” between what western rebels forces had and what they needed to subdue Tripoli, said Youssef Mohamed, a management consultant working as an adviser to one of the rebel units charged with securing the capital.

Who is the TNC? A contingency of lawyers and politicians of unknown beliefs and alliances. Yet they were recognized, officially, as the new legitimate government by the outside world long before this moment… and that includes the US.

A tad premature, don’t you think? Especially when you haven’t tossed the US ally’s body under the bus physically yet?

Speaking of physically and under the bus… more from the NYTs

American and European officials said on Monday that they have been working for weeks to foster cohesion in the rebel ranks and to avoid a repeat of the sectarian strife that gripped Iraq in 2003 after the American invasion. Officials said they thought that one reason Tripoli fell as quickly as it did was that important rebel groups closed ranks and came up with a coherent strategy to invade Colonel Qaddafi’s last stronghold.

… snip….

And despite the grumblings of some on the ground, local and national rebel leaders have sometimes coordinated closely. When rebels in Tripoli began to rise up Sunday, two senior officials from Benghazi were huddled in Tunis with a leader from the western mountains to monitor the movements together. On Monday, Jeffrey D. Feltman, under secretary of state for Near East affairs, said in an interview with CNN’s Web site that he was surprised by the closeness of the communication among rebels across the country.

“Saturday night we were seeing high-level officials in Benghazi who basically said: ‘O.K., in an hour Tripoli’s going to rise up and this is what’s going to happen. It’s going to start in this neighborhood, they’re going to go out to the mosques and start doing the call to prayer,’ ” he said. “So it was clear from that description that there’s a lot more communication than what was apparent publicly between the N.T.C. in Benghazi and Tripoli.”

Duh… do they wonder why they could virtually walk into Tripoli with little notable resistance? Do they wonder why they could walk, unobstructed, into a Gaddafi compound and abscond weapons and medical records (?????… bizarre priorities…)?

Did any one of these brain trusts wonder that if their “communication” was so wonderful and coordinated, that Gaddafi also may have known the plan?

According to the constant updates on the Libya Live Blog, hosted by Al Jazeera, this is exactly what Gaddafi is saying:

Four “high-ranking” Qataris and one Emirati have been captured, a spokesman for the Muammar Gaddafi government has told Al-Orouba TV via telephone, according to Reuters.

The spokesman also said the Gaddafi government can resist for months or for years, the news agency reported.

………

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi has vowed death or victory in fight against “aggression”, in an address on al-Orouba TV, according to Retuers.

Gaddafi has also said that the Bab al-Aziziya compound has been levelled to the ground by 64 NATO air strikes and that his withdrawal from his Bab Al-Aziziya compound in Tripoli was a tactical move.

Details to come.

Meanwhile, it seems that Gaddafi’s forces have merely changed their base of operations. Most likely because if the rebels knew “the signal”, so did every 8 year old on the planet with a twitter account.

Pro-Gaddafi forces are attacking the Libyan town of Ajelat with missiles and tanks, according to Al-Arabiya Reuters.

Witnesses says dozens of grad missiles fired on Tripoli.

….snip….

Loud explosions were heard when pro-Gaddafi forces have fired several scud missiles from Sirte, the current regime stronghold, at the rebel-held city of Misrata late on Tuesday night, the Misrata military council’s media centre said in a statement.

Meanwhile, remember those WMD materials that Gaddafi… after the US stormed and deposed Saddam… sequestered away? It appears that no one knows who has knowledge or control over those.

The Associated Press reports that US intelligence and military officials say no one can be sure who controls the Libyan government’s weapons stockpiles, from tons of mustard gas and raw nuclear materials to some 30,000 shoulder-fired rockets that can threaten aircraft.

The officials say the stockpiles appear to be under Libyan government control, despite rebel advances into the capital of Tripoli. That may or may not be good news, depending on whether troops loyal to embattled leader Muammar Gaddafi honour international agreements not to use the material.

One fear is that Gaddafi might use the weapons to make a last stand, or that al-Qaeda may acquire them. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.

Two US State Department weapons teams are working to secure the sites in rebel-held areas

What… our US State Dept has boots on the ground? uh huh…. so much for the assurances this is a hands off type of deal. So how does the US State department know where those stashes are kept? Or do they?

And did they bother to think about this before the bozo-in-chief started butting his nose into noodging deposal of a US ally, with a known stockpile of WMDs that he voluntarily held back in cooperation with the US govt under Bush.

With friends like Obama, who needs enemies. And with a foreign policy like this, who needs a state department. We might as well just keep a permanent white flag of surrender, flying under Old Glory atop the WH.

Will Gaddafi fall? Probably at some point. With US money and equipment behind NATO, who can resist for long? But just think how much better we’d be off if the US and Obama had stayed out of a civil war, merely stated that Gaddafi has been an ally in intel and the war on terror, and that it’s a Libyan thing…. not to mention think how much money we would have saved financing this little non war.

Oh, but hey. Let’s skip all the NATO BS propaganda campaign they’ve been running the past 24 hours, and cut to the important stuff!. The boys wandering the streets celebrating… devoid of the throngs of grateful, liberated citizens in the background, are having a helluva time. And the below rebel? In addition to stealing medical records (????), he got himself a new hat to give to his daddy….

Hey… ain’t that the sign of success?

As is usual, we’ve been duped with propaganda. And it’s all to bolster up a really piss poor decision to pull the int’l community into a civil war for “pre’emptive” humanitarian reasons.

UPDATE: CNN at 9;06 Pac time is glowing about the “celebrations” by all the 200 approximate rebels in the Square, firing off rounds in the sky in celebration.

Other than wondering about the intelligence of anyone with a gun that randomly fires in the air (they don’t know about gravity??), are we now supposed to believe that Gaddafi’s Tripoli – with it’s military equipment and arsenal – is so weak as to lose to a couple of hundred chumps in tees, with virtually no fight?

We are, yet again, played for fools by the media and NATO

MATA, hi,
you know that make me think because your POST is so well construct, allowed me to go back and heard that GADAFI always denied being responsable for the LOCHEED PLANE CRASH, which killed so many.
and this coordinate with ALQADA style of doing, in my mind when I heard the denyal of GADAFI responsability. they even made him sign a paper for it and he signed it still denying,
so now it’s possibly the terrorist factor in LIBYA that has done the lockerbie attack mixed with the rebels of LIBYA, and with you’re information supplied, it reenforce what I thought on a few instance of hearing here and there bits of the subject. that gave me doubts of the GADAFi implication.
well that is my thoughts, if someone try to prove me wrong we will see
bye

Ms. Bees, make no mistake. Gaddafi… most especially in that era… is undeniably scum as leadership. I don’t paint him any other way. Were NATO and, the US by association via Obama’s cooperation with NATO, not involved, whatever came out of any Libyan revolution the world would have learned to deal witih.. and with little repercussions. What transpired in their civil war was their busienss.

But now both NATO and the US is on the line. They picked a horse in the race (the rebels). If that horse wins, and is also scum, we are culpable and have made a situation considerably worse.

If that horse loses, Gaddafi has already shown the US and the west how dangerously vindictive he can be.

Bottom line, at this point in the game, I’m not enthused about the rebels winning or losing because I see nothing there that gives me confidence. I think that Libya, as any type of ally, is lost.

On the other hand, I see no way for Gaddafi to remain in power and have any semblence of US national security for his revenge.

We have been put into a rock and a hard place by NATO, Hillary etal, and Obama. Damned if we do, and damned if we don’t. For that, I will not forgive this POTUS. Thus why I get so impatient with those like Larry W who thinks the Obama Doctrine is masterful. Obama, along with NATO nations, stirred up a contained hornets nest by butting our collectives nose in where it didn’t belong. However the US had a choice. If France wanted to aid Libyan rebels, they could have done so on their own. The US never had to be involved..

Had the US not gone along with NATO demands, Gaddafi… if the victor… would not ever have a reason to seek revenge. Now, under all circumstances, he is a walking time bomb for US security… in power, or even as a lone rogue element with his hands on a single WMD.

stupid, stupid, stupid

But then, this was all well known to the Arab League, who coerced the infinitely dumb western leaders into doing their dirty work for them, and getting rid of the rogue Gaddafi for them. The despotic Arab Islamic leaders hate Gaddafi. Our leaders are so incredibly ignorant and naive that they have risked the free world to play pre’emptive “humanitarian” rescue. They don’t even realize they are puppets of the Arab league, which further annoys me.

stupid stupid stupid

MATA, I forgot to mentionned that in those time HE GADAFI, had banned BIN LADEN
from LIBYA, for reason ,that I don’t know, but he hate BIN LADEN and wanted nothing to do with him,
that was another clue for me, and I read that lately, and did not check where exactly,
bye

Yes, Bees. Tho Gaddafi was no angel, he also did not tolerate the global Islamic jihad movement in Libya. I assume when you say “bin laden”, you really mean all Islamic jihad groups that behave with the same quest, goal and methods.

Gaddafi was the inbetween guy, keeping the peace in Libya which is very tribal… much like Afghanistan. The jihad movements… tho they used Libya as a diving board into Iraq… are not Gaddafi’s friends. This is why jihad factions have joined with the rebels, and why the Arab despots hate him so. Gaddafi is not fundamentalist Islam in his leadership. However I have heard that most of the rebel factions want Shariah as the law for the new Libya.

Nice going, NATO, Hillary and Obama. Next time, try not to help. The Libyan women will remember their nanny feel good, but incorrect, efforts with venom if that is Libya’s fate..

“Ridding the world of the likes of Gaddafi is a good thing, but this indecisive president had little to do with this triumph.” Rick “The Courage to Fight for America” Santorum.

Getting involved was a big mistake. I see no good coming from it. Will the Western nations now be responsible for $$$ nation building$$$? Undoubtedly. Billions of our money will be thrown at jihadists just making them stronger and a greater threat. Then there will be the shia/sunni conflict because only 1 form of islam will be allowed. It will just get worse and worse.

@just me 95, #8:

Libya has the largest known oil reserves on the African continent–an estimated 41.5 billion barrels. The revenue stream from that could fund either a prosperous and progressive Muslim nation, or the schemes of a hostile and increasingly delusional megalomaniac with a long history of terrorist involvement, who happened to live next door to Egypt and only a stone’s throw from Western Europe.

Obama’s decision to provide U.S. support to assist in the removal of Gaddafi was in no way arbitrary. It was an adroit geopolitical move, carefully calculated to further the long-term interests of Libya, the United States, and Western Europe. Obama’s statements and actions with regard to Libya have been totally consistent since that calculation was made. That’s certainly a lot more than can be said for the republican opposition.

@Greg:

Greg, read Mata’s #6 until you understand it.

I am so sick of all the friking BS that we are now hearing about the newly freed Libya. Even Fox News has joined the circle to hold hands and sing along with “Everything is wonderful!….” . So now we have Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, and a few more ME countries waiting to join the Arab Spring. You would think that all credible news agencies would be a little more balanced in their reporting. The whole ME is in a major upheavel, and so many factions fighting to gain the number one position that the final ending has in no way been written.

The Libyan embassy in London has a new doormat:

LIBYA: Foreign embassies defect

Another way to have approached this would have been, if Gadhafi was linked to the bombing of Pan Am 103 which he most likely was, we should have taken him out via a cruise missile strike, a bomb, a drone strike, or another OBL type operation under GWOT and then let the Libyan civil war run its course. Now that NATO(we) has taken sides, NATO(we) owns the country the same way NATO(we) owned Bosnia and Kosovo after those bombing campaigns. Should the country descend into chaos or a humanitarian crisis develop, which it may already have, that will require boots on the ground. Since it is pretty well given that his regime will fall if it hasn’t already, the WMD situation combined with Al Qaeda backed rebels is another reason we will need boots on the ground. We will need to determine if he had any WMD and if he did, we will need to secure it to make sure it doesn’t end up in the hands of Al Qaeda to be used against our troops in Afghanistan or Iraq. One of those rebel factions was made up of individuals who fought us in Iraq. In other words, this may come down to a choice between mission creep or mission failure. Like it or not, that’s what we may have to deal with. Time will tell.

@MataHarley:

UPDATE: CNN at 9;06 Pac time is glowing about the “celebrations” by all the 200 approximate rebels in the Square, firing off rounds in the sky in celebration.

Mata,

Give the devil his due: Obama, not Bush, removed dickhead Ghadaffi. Just admit you’re pissed-off that Obama did it, and got Usama Bin Laden, and you’ll regain **SOME** credibility.

Your attempts to play down this victory over a tyrant are sad. Very sad.

@MataHarley:

Gaddafi was the inbetween guy, keeping the peace in Libya which is very tribal…

You’re nuts, as in a fruit-cake.

Gaddafi KILLED over 200 Americans (+/-) over Scotland and NOW we’ll have **SOME** semblance of justice by killing or capturing this clown.

You’re “Oh he’s inbetween” is an INSULT to the families of the DEAD AMERICANS from the Pan Am flight.

Man Mata, you’re constant “Obama is the devil” gets really tiresome.

How much is the RNC paying you to down-play this AMERICAN VICTORY over a tyrant????

YVAN, how can you be sure HE is the one who order it done, has it been prooven?
there was rebels in those years and they had join with alqada, they could have possibly done the coup and let GADAFI take the rapt, because GADAFI banned BIN LADEN from LIBYA,
why else?ig money and still always denied i
it was easy for the LIBYANS rebels to do it with AL QADA, and muzzeled GADAFI ,
who could not proove his innocense, because of his people which , rebels also are part of , had done it,
I read that he paid big money and was force to sign and still denied doing it.
but being the leader .had to take some responsability and paid and signed.
what else those REBELS must have done to discredit him. we might learn some more, as this revolution advance further, any way, MATA gave us some important fact to pounder,
and you should too, instead of trying to kill the MESSENGER, USE YOUR FACULTY TO THINK FURTHER THAN WHAT IS THE FRONT PICTURE SHOWN ON TV.

For years Clinton, Bush, and then obi denied that any proof existed that linked Gadaffi to the bombings and so their fore no action could be taken. The day after Obi recognized the Rebels, our government made the announcement that it was Gaddafi after all who was behind the bombings. The same with the Cole, it was under 24 hours after 9/11 that the government announced that Bin laden was in fact responsible for the Cole attack, but had denied it till then. Simply amazing how fast our government can connect the dots when it fits their political agenda and political courage is it not? At least old Ronnie had the stuff to at least attempt a hit on the psycho, and not reward him with multibillion dollar contracts, and remove him from the list of countries that support and use terrorism, while exclaiming that Gaddafi was all better now. Really?

IF we go back to Obama’s original brief about WHY we even helped in Libya, it had NOTHING to do with ”getting rid of Gaddafi.”
Recall, yet?
Obama only was concerned with the deaths of innocent civilians all over Libya.
And, like it or not, both the Gaddafi forces AND the ”rebel” forces have been caught murdering innocent civilians for their various reasons.
Will these rebels stop murdering their supposed ”enemies” among the civilian population, now that they will have power?
Hard to tell.
Gaddafi gone was NOT the purpose of US involvement.

BUT I have twice heard a rumor: That Obama has asked the ”rebel” leaders to turn over Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, the supposedly cancer-stricken man freed by the UK after serving something like 56 minutes per death at Lockerbie.
1. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/275241/lockerbie-bombing-victims-welcome-qaddafis-ouster-brian-bolduc
2. http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/08/a_quiet_anniversary_celebration_in_tripoli.html

IF that rumor is true, then IF the rebels follow through, that would be a good day.

@ilovebeeswarzone:

YVAN, how can you be sure HE is the one who order it done, has it been prooven?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You’re just as bad as the liberals, Bee.

Let me get this straight, Gaddafi’s intel officer ordered the plane blown up without G’s knowledge?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I love watching “conservatives” shoot themselves in the foot because Obama did what liberal BUSH couldn’t or wouldn’t do.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

@Nan G:

IF we go back to Obama’s original brief about WHY we even helped in Libya, it had NOTHING to do with ”getting rid of Gaddafi.”
Recall, yet?

Irrelevant: A tyrant is out of power. I take it that this makes you sad? Nan, tell me, what is it like to have a case of the A$$ over a MURDERER being driven out of power?

Obama only was concerned with the deaths of innocent civilians all over Libya.
And, like it or not, both the Gaddafi forces AND the ”rebel” forces have been caught murdering innocent civilians for their various reasons.

Lay off the “stupid pills”, Nan. You and I both knew this was about Iran/AQ overthrowing G for the oil and WMD. Now, at least, WE Have a day as to what or who will come to power.

Will these rebels stop murdering their supposed ”enemies” among the civilian population, now that they will have power?

We don’t know, but we know if we hadn’t been involved an AQ friendly government would have come to power.

Gaddafi gone was NOT the purpose of US involvement.

It became very important that the same dickheads who took power in Egypt didn’t come to power in Libya.

Yet still, like Saddam, a tyrant is gone.

How sad you can’t be happy about this.

@Ivan: Give the devil his due: Obama, not Bush, removed dickhead Ghadaffi. Just admit you’re pissed-off that Obama did it, and got Usama Bin Laden, and you’ll regain **SOME** credibility.

Your attempts to play down this victory over a tyrant are sad. Very sad.

What is Sam heck are you talking about… what does UBL and Obama have to do with my comment #2 about a couple hundred of dumber than dirt rebels – who turned out to be less than freedom fighters than looting thieves, ransacking/robbing/and confiscating weapons from the Gaddafi compound – shooting bullets in the air? An extremely dangerous practice.

As far as “victory”… you’ve got to be joking me. Obama and NATO have now put us in the untenable position that Gaddafi can’t stay since his revenge would be unconcionable, and the rebels are highly unlikely to be freedom of religion/no Shariah law/western loving governance.

This rock and a hard place was manufactured by no less than the worst CiC in American history, and put the US’s future security at greater risk than it was.

Mata: Gaddafi was the inbetween guy, keeping the peace in Libya which is very tribal…

Ivan: You’re nuts, as in a fruit-cake.

Gaddafi KILLED over 200 Americans (+/-) over Scotland and NOW we’ll have **SOME** semblance of justice by killing or capturing this clown.

You’re “Oh he’s inbetween” is an INSULT to the families of the DEAD AMERICANS from the Pan Am flight.

What a dimwit you are, Ivan. The “keeping the peace” comment relates to the Libyan tribal factions. Not Libya’s relationship with the west.

Man Mata, you’re constant “Obama is the devil” gets really tiresome.

How much is the RNC paying you to down-play this AMERICAN VICTORY over a tyrant????

Obama isn’t the devil. Never said he was. That would be alluding that he has such power. He’s merely a political opportunist, and a piss poor leader of the free world. Additionally, I have heaped no praise on Gaddafi and pointed out he was scum quite often. Then again, we already know you don’t retain much of what you read… if you read at all.

To the first, I repeat, Obama has put the US between the rock and hard place. Had, or if, Gaddafi retains control, his revenge was guaranteed, and promised … via his own statements… to the west. If the rebels win, the chances of Libya resembling Iraq in the slightest are almost nil. It took US dollars and troops on the ground, and considerable support to allow the Iraqis to implement what they have today. That isn’t likely to happen in Libya.

Secondly, we are told that the US is not heavily involved in the NATO action… it’s not a US “war”. But if you think of it as a success…. no surprise you’d be that gullible… you’re now willing to contradict the CiC and say it’s now an American action instead of NATO’s? How convenient.

I’d say this one has the French in the lead… either for kudos if the unlikely does transpire, or the blame. The US just threw in their ante to play the game too. That, of course, is enough to incur the wrath and revenge of Gaddafi.

Wonder how many of those WMDs he can get his hands on, and the target of their launch? Tell me how successful and happy you’ll feel if or when that happens, Ivan.

As a matter of fact, Ivan, why don’t you point out to me anywhere in this thread that I have discussed Obama, invading an ally’s territory to implement a secret mission? And hasn’t that relationship been on the mend since then… not that it was all that fab to begin with.

Your predictable rhetoric and personal insults do get so tiresome.

@MataHarley:

What is Sam heck are you talking about… what does UBL and Obama have to do with my comment #2 about a couple hundred of dumber than dirt rebels – who turned out to be less than freedom fighters than looting thieves, ransacking/robbing/and confiscating weapons from the Gaddafi compound – shooting bullets in the air? An extremely dangerous practice.

Here is your laughable comment #2:

UPDATE: CNN at 9;06 Pac time is glowing about the “celebrations” by all the 200 approximate rebels in the Square, firing off rounds in the sky in celebration.

Other than wondering about the intelligence of anyone with a gun that randomly fires in the air (they don’t know about gravity??), are we now supposed to believe that Gaddafi’s Tripoli – with it’s military equipment and arsenal – is so weak as to lose to a couple of hundred chumps in tees, with virtually no fight?

We are, yet again, played for fools by the media and NATO

No where in comment #2 do you express happiness/elation/satisfaction that a brutal thug/dictator anti-American has been disposed of. Just 100%, 24/7 Mata with a case of the a$$.

All you can do is belly-ache and bitch, an gender-correct label by the way, about the rebels and their conduct AFTER they’ve RISKED their lives to free their nation from a brutal dictator.

But Mata is an EXPERT in how men should act after they’ve just survived a horrific conflict. Nope! No blowing off steam by shooting their AKs in the air! Nope! How dare they!

And how dare they take some medical supplies or dollars from G-daddy and his sons!!!

Yep, Mata is the new Nuremberg judge who has declared them to be Untermensch.

Mata, just do yourself and the rest of us a favor and STFU about your “expert” military opinion, okay?

Thanks!

Ivan the idiot: No where in comment #2 do you express happiness/elation/satisfaction that a brutal thug/dictator anti-American has been disposed of. Just 100%, 24/7 Mata with a case of the a$$.

All you can do is belly-ache and bitch, an gender-correct label by the way, about the rebels and their conduct AFTER they’ve RISKED their lives to free their nation from a brutal dictator.

But Mata is an EXPERT in how men should act after they’ve just survived a horrific conflict. Nope! No blowing off steam by shooting their AKs in the air! Nope! How dare they!

First of all, it’s apparent you know nothing of firearms. And also as apparent, of gravity. Yo… bozo…. what goes up must come down. No one with any firearm experience risks random firing in the air… most especially in an urban area.

Secondly, what’s this glowing freedom fighter perception you have? And what huge firefights? Those guys virtually walked in with little resistance, considering the military might that Gaddafi’s military possesses. Not to mention the WMD arsenal they still control. What a sap you are… Gaddafi forces saw them coming, and moved their base of operations. News as of this AM is that Gaddafi was warning the population to vacate Tripoli. That did not warm the cockles of my heart…. Did he allow the hornets to enter the nest, and plans an extermination of all? We can only wait and see. But they most certainly have superior weaponry at their disposal. This was waaaaay too easy.

Third, they didn’t take medical “supplies”, idiot. They took medical “records” of the Gaddafi family. Medical records??? Our ISG teams, following the deposal of Saddam, went in looking for intel and alliances. These guys walk off with guns, hats, valuables and medical records? Obviously too stupid to be thinking about prosecution if that’s the valuable regime documents they sought. And you are equally stupid to consider it medical “supplies”. Tell me, Ivan… does “r-e-c-o-r-d-s” and “s-u-p-p-l-i-e-s” look like the same word and item to you?

Lastly, why the heck would I rejoice when I have little to no faith with the replacement government? If I had a bullet in my abdomen, and the doctor removed it and replaced it with a rusted piece of metal, is that an improvement?

You are rude, you are unbelievablely stupid. And you ought to consider STF’ingU yourself, a’hole.

@MataHarley:

As a matter of fact, Ivan, why don’t you point out to me anywhere in this thread that I have discussed Obama, invading an ally’s territory to implement a secret mission?

The FACT that you couldn’t express an iota of happiness that an enemy of the United States has been driven from power is all I need to prove my point that you’re a political hack before you’re an American.

Shame.

Ivan: The FACT that you couldn’t express an iota of happiness that an enemy of the United States has been driven from power is all I need to prove my point that you’re a political hack before you’re an American.

Shame.

The only way I would have wanted Gaddafi driven from power was to:

1: first know what was replacing him, and

2: did he have any WMDs at his disposal for use or sale

Shame on you for being a gullible dupe.

@MataHarley:

First of all, it’s apparent you know nothing of firearms. And also as apparent, of gravity. Yo… bozo…. what goes up must come down. No one with any firearm experience risks random firing in the air… most especially in an urban area.

Oh buy a clue lady. The number of people injured by the activities is very, very small. Google it and you’ll see.

Then again you never admit you’re wrong so what’s the point? Right?

How many does it take, a’hole?

Ivan the dem strikes again. Really, do you not understand we know you’re a phony? You’re not a former GOP’er and you never were.
You prove it by launching yet another all out attack on Conservatives while giving a pass to the dems. You even cheer on obama. Like AJ, you are a troll with no purpose here other than spewing rabid hate and antagonizing the sane posters.

@MataHarley:

Third, they didn’t take medical “supplies”, idiot. They took medical “records” of the Gaddafi family. Medical records??? Our ISG teams, following the deposal of Saddam, went in looking for intel and alliances. These guys walk off with guns, hats, valuables and medical records? Obviously too stupid to be thinking about prosecution if that’s the valuable regime documents they sought.

And like always the CIA/DIA/US Army will pay the Rebs for said documents.

Problem solved.

Duh.

Hard RIGHT, HI,
YOU KNOW, I thought the same thing of YVAN being on OBAMA side as oppose to trying to understand MATA”s POST,
AS a matter of fact, It’s the first time that he make it so clear to capture, maybe because he was angry enough to let it slip this time for real.
maybe he doesn’t know he is , but he opened it this time.

@Hard Right:

Ivan the dem strikes again. Really, do you not understand we know you’re a phony? You’re not a former GOP’er and you never were.

Go ask “Aye”. He stalked me on the internet and will confirm what I have said is the truth.

You, on the other hand, are nothing more than a shill for the establishment.

You, like Nan G, are “slaves” on the plantation.

I’ll pray for you.

@Ivan: And like always the CIA/DIA/US Army will pay the Rebs for said documents.

If they did, this is valuable to proving Gaddafi is the war criminal is … how? Sounds like yet another waste of US taxpayer cash to me. Not that that will bother you, psuedo “conservative”. And oh, BTW… got any sources to cite that those agencies plan on paying the rebels for that theft of non-important documents?

And I do distinctly notice you decided to only address bullets raining down from the air, and nothing else. Whatsamatter… your magazine of mental midget’ry empty? But I’ll give you this. The risk of their irresponsible (and common, in that part of the world) firearms use was low. Why?

… because there was no Tripoli citizens in the street celebrating. Just a bunch of low grade looters and press that were there to glorify them…. And frankly, I don’t care about either group.

@MataHarley:

If they did, this is valuable to proving Gaddafi is the war criminal is … how? Sounds like yet another waste of US taxpayer cash to me. Not that that will bother you, psuedo “conservative”. And oh, BTW… got any sources to cite that those agencies plan on paying the rebels for that theft of non-important documents?

You got a source they won’t be paid????

I didn’t think so.

No, I’m proud to say I’m not a conservative, I’m a populist.

To be a “conservative” means you have to constantly vote for people who empower government.

I don’t do that.

Ivan: You got a source they won’t be paid????

Hey, Ivan.. you brung it up as a… how was it you put it… “problem solved”. But hey… good to see your lib/prog Alinsky tactics of distraction from your own flaws and low grade debate skills still runs vibrant thru your blood.

@MataHarley

: Hey, Ivan.. you brung it up as a… how was it you put it… “problem solved”. But hey… good to see your lib/prog Alinsky tactics of distraction from your own flaws and low grade debate skills still runs vibrant thru your blood.

Ha! That’s right, if someone disagrees with you they’re a liberal, right Mata?

You’re a simpleton of the tenth degree.

Have a good night, plantation resident.

@MataHarley:

from your own flaws and low grade debate skills still runs vibrant thru your blood.

Low debate skills? Coming from the skirt who continuously engages in name-calling? Give me a break! You’re beyond weak in the debating department.

YVAN, once a lib, you can’t shake the lib out, even if you want it so much. for the populist,
is that a new party of libs?

Actually, Bees… it was the 80s populists that ran David Duke, Klu Klux Klan, as their nominee. Populists also backed Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan and Ralph Nader. And of course, other famous world wide populists include Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez (tho he hates being labeled that). National socialists tend to classify themselves as members of the common population… i.e. populist. That apple don’t fall far from the tree of common good…..

Considering Ivan’s limited historical knowledge, and likely equally limited construct of socio-politics, I’d say he hasn’t figured out yet that he’s nothing more then a closet blue dog dem at best.

Populists also backed Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan and Ralph Nader.

And Mata, didn’t you admit to voting for Perot in 1992?

So let me get this straight; when you vote for the populist candidate, it’s “okay.” It’s just that no one else can, right?

Flaccid. That is the word I think of when I think of your “debating skills”.

@MataHarley:

I’d say he hasn’t figured out yet that he’s nothing more then a closet blue dog dem at best

100% Buchanan supporter from day one in 1992. Proud and loud.

Unlike you, Mrs. Bi-polar Perot voter.

Not bi-polar in the least, Ivan. I explained my Perot vote to you… tho I don’t expect one with advancing alzheimers like you to remember. Both here,…. and also here in the same thread. Didn’t like Clinton and didn’t like One World Order Bush the elder. I have no problems voting third party when I don’t want the clown to the left, or to the right. Even back then, I was very concerned with the increasing growth of government and spending.

BTW, what I said then about you still holds:

Reconcile that, and all you get [with Ivan] is a bitter, unfocused man with no solutions, who simply likes to listen to himself whine.

Nor have I ever said that I am of any one political ideolgy. I am, like most people, a mixture of conservative, libertarian, and even a tiny slice of populist. It’s you who seems to think I’m an RNC paid shill… and yet, in this very comment, you prove you know differently. Don’t you ever feel like the fool?

And oh, BTW… I have great respect for Buchanan as one of the greatest historians going these days. Don’t agree with him on all things, but have been to hear him speak on select subjects (most especially the history of the nation’s economic policies), and own a couple of his very stellar books, personally signed by the man.

Unlike you, however, I’m not a walking barbiturate of anger, total pessimism and hatred.

BTW, Mr. “100% Buchanan support from day one in 1992″… Buchanan on Libya.. happens to agree with me, not you.

To establish a secure no-fly zone, we would have to bomb radar installations, anti-aircraft batteries, missile sites and airfields, and destroy the Libyan air force on the ground, to keep the skies secure for U.S. pilots.

These would be acts of war against a nation that has not attacked us.

Where do we get the legal and moral right to do this? Has Congress, which alone has the power to declare war, authorized Barack Obama to attack Libya?

The president may respond to an attack on American territory or U.S. citizens, but Libya has not done that since Lockerbie, more than two decades ago.

Since that atrocity, George W. Bush and Condi Rice welcomed Gadhafi in from the cold, after he paid $10 million in blood money to the families of each of the Lockerbie victims.

What, then, is our present justification for attacking Libya?

…snip…

If we destroy Gadhafi’s air defenses, could we simply let the rebels and regime fight it out? If Libyans, seeing us intervene, rose up against Gadhafi, could we let them be massacred as Bush I let the tens of thousands of Shiites be massacred who rose up in 1991 against Saddam after Bush urged them to do so?

If we attack Libya, we could not let Gadhafi prevail and plot revenge attacks on U.S. airliners. Having wounded the snake, we would have to go in and kill it. And the interventionists know this, and this is what they are all about.

Never strike a king unless you kill him. In for a dime, in for a dollar. If we declare a no-fly zone, we have to attack Libya. And if we attack Libya, an act of war, we have to see that the war is won.

And after that victory, we could not wash our hands and walk away. We would have to ensure the new government was democratic and a model to the Muslim world, as we are trying to do in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Do we really want to adopt another Muslim country?

Don’t start down a road the end of which you cannot see or do not know. There is no vital U.S. interest in whether Gadhafi wins or is deposed. We ought to stay out. This is their war, not ours.

Another inconvenient truth for you? Patrick Buchanan on Egypt, in his column offering, “When Dictators Fall, Who Arises”?

With the fall of the Mubarak regime in Egypt have come Islamist attacks on Coptic Christians. How will the Copts fare if the Muslim Brotherhood wins the September election and writes Shariah into Egyptian law?

… snip…

Americans have welcomed the “Arab Spring.” Yet we should be forewarned that among those liberated when dictators fall is the sort of men that Edmund Burke described:

“Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites. … Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.”

Americans, who incarcerate 2.3 million of their own citizens, 90 percent of them males, are surely aware of the truth Burke spoke.

And across the Middle East, there are millions of “intemperate minds” that would use the freedom and power democracy provides to majorities to suppress or eradicate their long-hated rival minorities.

If one-man, one-vote democracy across the Maghreb and Middle East is almost certain to strengthen the Muslim Brotherhood and to liberate Islamists to persecute Christians, why are we for it?

You might want to read this one too, Democratic Dawn Or Darkness?

Let’s keep ’em coming, eh? From Buchanan’s Return of the Anti-interventionist Right

Though Gadhafi is a repellent figure, the architect of the Lockerbie massacre, we have no vital interest in who rules Libya. Yet when Gadhafi falls, it will now be up to us to see to it that Libya is united and repaired and has a democratic government.

Seems Mr. Buchanan isn’t all that assured or thrilled with what may replace Gaddafi, sees that we’ve put ourselves in a rock and a hard place by “cuting the head off of the snake”, and notes that there is no vested US interest whether he stayed, or was deposed.

oops… again Buchanan agrees with me, not you.

You may need to rethink that 100% Buchanan bit again, eh?

@ilovebeeswarzone:

YVAN, once a lib, you can’t shake the lib out, even if you want it so much. for the populist,
is that a new party of libs?

Educate yourself, Bees. Free your mind from the two-party scam, and your a$$ will follow.

;->

YVAN, I have a special respect and love for the GREAT CONSERVATIVES HERE,
and that is why I stick around here, and educate myself like you say, on their VALUES,
I find NOBLE and TRUE to the ESSENCE of being a REAL AMERICAN,
they have the ability to be good judges of subjects that other don’t bother to follow,
and a sense of pride for AMERICA special with passion I can say, they are the most tolerant people of AMERICA, although they know they can outsmart the opponent in a debate, but they allow
the opponent lots of rope, before striking the knockout punch.
but when they have enough, that is it,
yes I like the CONSERVATIVES for all that and more, and I find lots of intelligence spoken here,
the best place to learn.
bye

MATA, I think BUCANAN is absolutely right, that is why those leaders depose now,
knew their people to be exactly like BUCCANAN said, and they had to govern more sternly to control the uncontroleble ones if turn free, that religion they have has made them this way, by controling every aspects of their life, and OBAMA is trying the same CONTROL FOR AMERICANS, but the upbrigning of the rooted AMERICANS don’t include any of it and they never needed to have it because they are FREE,
by the laws of the land made up with great wisdom and applyed for many generation, and guarded with the blood of the militarys for generations too.
IN AMERICA WHICH IS A FREE COUNTRY, SO IT DOESN’T WORK HERE AND NEVER WILL.
HE must most likely carry the memory of his fatherland in his unconscious mind, to want to apply the MUSLIM CONTROL HERE, and we see how he like their way and values, so I think when we are born, we already have the program set up to where we will favor our life with what values we will seek more, no matter where we end up living, unless we fight our own gutts feeling early in life to deprogramthe code in the genetic.
just my views

@MataHarley:

Mata, I see the fact that ivan doesn’t know where his self proclaimed hero stands on the issues as proof he’s a lib pretending to be an “Archie Bunker Conservative.”
In fact, until a few of us pointed out that he only attacked the GOP and Conservatives, he never posted anything against the dems. Ivan just doesn’t pass the smell test.

@MataHarley:

100% doesn’t mean I agree 100% with him on the issues, Mata who can only engage in name calling and can’t refute my arguments.

Duh.

It means he has, in the past, received my backing 100%.

Duh.

Lay off the stupid pills, lady.

@MataHarley:

Not bi-polar in the least, Ivan. I explained my Perot vote to you… tho I don’t expect one with advancing alzheimers like you to remember.

Yes, you are bi-polar, you woman. You hold others to a different standard than you do yourself, thus you are a hypocrite.

It’s “okay” for you to vote populist, but not others.

Try to be consistent; it will serve you well in debates.

@Hard Right:

In fact, until a few of us pointed out that he only attacked the GOP and Conservatives, he never posted anything against the dems. Ivan just doesn’t pass the smell test.

Picking on the Dems is like picking on a retarded kid: Only bullies do that.

What I enjoy pointing out here at FA is that you guys rip Obama and the Dems for the very same thing the Republicans do (90% of the time).

The real problem is guys like you and Mata who keep giving “Conservative” Republicans a pass on their betrayal.

CHANGING subject, THAT hurricane must have long range access,
because MONDAY we way north had big huge winds and big rains for the whole day. and today thursday the same big winds have returned,
we are near the ATLANTIC OCEAN, NORTH ABOVE MAINE

Whether the ”rebels” have ”won” or not, it looks like the US involvement will be continuing.

Washington Examiner:

The bodies are scattered around a grassy square next to Moammar Gadhafi’s compound of Bab al-Aziziya.
…..
It is impossible to know who killed them, but the discoveries raise the disturbing specter of mass killings of noncombatants, detainees and the wounded.
…..
One had an IV in his arm, and another body was completely charred, its legs missing.

At least a dozen other bodies were found in a grassy area and a canal nearby. Several of the dead had been shot in the head, with their hands tied behind their backs. A body in a doctor’s green hospital gown was found in the canal.
…..

One of the dead had a strip of cloth in bright green, the national color of Gadhafi’s Libya, tied around his wrist.
The man was darker skinned than most Libyans. Gadhafi had recruited fighters from sub-Saharan Africa.

Obama made it clear.
We did not join in the fighting with NATO and our allies EXCEPT to protect innocent civilians from slaughter.
By forces on either side.

YVAN, you are the one who come here and betray the CONSERVATIVES
WHO are tolerant enough to allow you to comment against them ,
and let you get away with more than you deserve.

@ilovebeeswarzone:

YVAN, you are the one who come here and betray the CONSERVATIVES
WHO are tolerant enough to allow you to comment against them ,

So I should be banned because I speak the truth? Boehner, “cry baby”, was elected by “Conservatives” and he betrayed them.

I, though, am the bad guy, not him. How dare I speak the truth!

You see, you want me banned because I speak the truth. You’re no different than the liberals you detest.

and let you get away with more than you deserve.

Whatever.

Cook Partisan Voting Index

The most Democratic congressional districts in the country are New York’s 15th and 16th at D+41, while the most Republican districts are Alabama’s 6th and Texas’s 13th with a PVI of R+29.

John Boehner’s District is the 8th District of Ohio.
It only ranks a R+14.

Not exactly extreme.
The 11th District of Ohio is a D+32.
So, what does that make Rep. Fudge?

@Nan G:

Nan, were you happy back in November of 2010 that the Republicans took the House?

@Ivan:

90%? Yet another number you pulled out of your butt. FYI, I have criticized the GOP and displayed my disgust with their spending, gutlessness, and abandonment of principle. My goal is to help reform the GOP not give up and hand everything to the dems. If you have a problem that, tough shite.
Then again, since you are a dem I know you don’t want us to fix the problem.

@Ivan:

Move the goalposts….much?

YVAN, I didn’t say I want you ban, I just want you to get of anyone
on the opposit side of the DEMOCRATS, they are the one that must be gone at the next 2012 NOVEMBER
so get in line with that goal,
every one say, it will be the most important election of AMERICA,
so for AMERICA we must win.
we cannot afford having the negatives against the side along with us,
that should be clear enough,