I can’t shake the feeling that it was a trap. A set-up. An ambush.
And that Obama bought it. And Joe Biden made it all possible.
There was no end to self-adulation of Barack Obama following the raid in which Osama Bin Laden was killed. In the revelry, the brainiac that is the Vice President opened his mouth and identified those who carried out the Bin Laden raid.
He can tell you more about and understands the incredible, the phenomenal, the just almost unbelievable capacity of his Navy SEALs and what they did last Sunday.
Following the Biden outing, SecDef Gates made clear that increased security was necessary to protect the SEALS and their families. He also noted that the Obama administration could not shut the hell up.
Frankly, a week ago Sunday, in the Situation Room, we all agreed that we would not release any operational details from the effort to take out bin Laden. That all fell apart on Monday, the next day.”
Gates turned out to be prophetic:
“There is an awareness that the threat of retaliation is increased because of the attacks – because of the action against bin Laden,” he said.
Obama then let everyone know where the SEAL Team was.
(Reuters) – President Barack Obama, basking in U.S. public approval for the killing of Osama bin Laden, flew to a military base in Kentucky on Friday to thank special forces who carried out the deadly raid and led a rally filled with cheering troops.
By the end of May, the Taliban was promising revenge.
Nicholas Schmidle wrote a highly detailed play by play of the raid. He’ll probably get a Pulitzer Prize for it. He also helped the Taliban devise a trap.
“One option entailed flying helicopters to a spot outside Abbottabad and letting the team sneak into the city on foot. The risk of detection was high, however, and the SEALS would be tired by a long run to the compound. The planners had contemplated tunneling in — or at least, the possibility that bin Laden might tunnel out…Eventually, the planners agreed that it made the most sense to fly directly into the compound. ‘Special operations is about doing what’s not expected, and probably the least expected thing here was that a helicopter would come in, drop guys on the roof, and land in the yard,’ the special operations officer said.”
“Forty-five minutes after the Black Hawks departed, four MH-47 Chinooks launched from the same runway in Jalalabad. Two of them flew to the border, staying on the Afghan side; the other two proceeded into Pakistan. Deploying four Chinooks was a last-minute decision made after President Barack Obama said he wanted to feel assured that the Americans could “fight their way out of Pakistan.” Twenty-five additional SEALs from DEVGRU, pulled from a squadron stationed in Afghanistan, sat in the Chinooks that remained at the border; this “quick-reaction force” would be called into action only if the mission went seriously wrong. The third and fourth Chinooks were each outfitted with a pair of M134 Miniguns. They followed the Black Hawks’ initial flight path but landed at a predetermined point on a dry riverbed in a wide, unpopulated valley in northwest Pakistan. The nearest house was half a mile away. On the ground, the copters’ rotors were kept whirring while operatives monitored the surrounding hills for encroaching Pakistani helicopters or fighter jets. One of the Chinooks was carrying fuel bladders, in case the other aircraft needed to refill their tanks.
In the detailed description, there is more prophecy
One month before the 2008 Presidential election, Obama, then a senator from Illinois, squared off in a debate against John McCain in an arena at Belmont University, in Nashville. A woman in the audience asked Obama if he would be willing to pursue Al Qaeda leaders inside Pakistan, even if that meant invading an ally nation. He replied, “If we have Osama bin Laden in our sights and the Pakistani government is unable, or unwilling, to take them out, then I think that we have to act and we will take them out. We will kill bin Laden. We will crush Al Qaeda. That has to be our biggest national-security priority.” McCain, who often criticized Obama for his naïveté on foreign-policy matters, characterized the promise as foolish, saying, “I’m not going to telegraph my punches.”
Obama did. So did Biden. And so did Schmidle.
They offered the Taliban an outline of how high value target raids are conducted. And it was another high value target they were after.
KABUL—U.S. Special Operations troops were closing in on a clandestine Taliban meeting thought to include a high-value commander in Afghanistan’s rugged Tangi Valley when they ran into an insurgent patrol that pinned them down.
Rangers just happened to “run into” an insurgent patrol that just happened to be there in a position to pin them down??
Bin Laden’s remains were necessary to provide DNA evidence of his death. The alleged “target(s)” of this disastrous raid must also have been very high value as the raid bears a striking similarity to the Bin Laden raid. This time they knew the SEALS were coming and they were prepared for them.
Bin Laden was located from threads of intelligence gathered over four years, and it all derived from a phone call.
So now thanks to the eager press the Taliban knew how Bin Laden was found, they knew who participated in the raid and they knew how it went down. All they needed to do was set bait that someone at the top could not refuse.
The Taliban could leak information about a high value target- it had to be someone high on the food chain, someone else whose DNA would be be required for a positive ID- someone like Ayman Al-Zawahiri. Then they could pin down the first team looking for the high value target and hold out for reinforcements. And they came. The Taliban KNEW SEAL Team 6 comes after high value targets and could well be involved. They KNEW the equipment that would be used. They KNEW pretty much how it would be done. They KNEW how to furnish the fake intel.
It all fits. I believe the Taliban got its revenge by playing the game and I cannot help but wonder who made the decision to send in Special Ops and then the SEALs instead of using a drone. That decision probably came from the top. Perhaps someone was looking for another trophy- someone who needs a boost at the polls.
We still don’t know who got Khalid Sheik Muhammad.
I wrote this well before the following appeared.
UPDATE: Yes, it was a trap.
The Taliban lured US forces into an elaborate trap to shoot down their helicopter, killing 30 American troops in the deadliest such incident of the war, an Afghan official said Monday.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
My heart aches for those men who gave their lives to satisfy the adulation that barry demands. barry is a narccisist* and it is essential that every day all of the time people adore him. So in order to obtain what has slowly been slipping away he took what he felt would get him in the good graces of the people again and gave the world everything about the Seals.
(* narcissistic personality disorder is a mental illness characterized by a lack of empathy, a willingness to exploit others, and an inflated sense of self-importance.)
May God bless the fallen heroes and their families and may God have mercy on the nitwits running this country.
I would love to teach Biden et al what the consequences of breaking Omerta are. Evidently Biden is the poster child for the “Loose lips sink ships” adage.
Obama allowed the press to photograph the flag-draped coffins of our troops – up until now.
Today I heard that these bodies will not be photographed.
No media coverage of return of slain troops: USsource
I know people are critical of Obama for doing the exact things Bush would do…..in this I agree with him.
At least Obama has a bit of decency.
I can’t even imagine the grief of the families.
Prayers in their behalf have been incessant.
Is there anything some people won’t exploit to get in a cheap shot at Barack Obama?
I’m betting wilson was 100% ok with every cheap shot launched at W. What a hypocrite.
Nan, I’m with you. Obama did the right thing in this case.
@Nan G:
@Hard Right:
The decision to have no media present was not one that was made by Obie.
That decision, instead, is a result of long-standing Defense Department policy covering cases in which remains have not been identified:
More:
h/t – Ace
Would the showing of the flag draped caskets on national TV reflect badly on obama? Think about it, before you give him too much credit.
@Aye:
Thanks for that clarification.
Too bad Obama couldn’t take credit for it.
There are so few things Obama does that I am in agreement with him on.
I thought this was one of those things.
Obama will pay his respects:
Obama will travel to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware Tuesday to view the returning bodies of 30 US service members killed.
@ Nan , the only reason obummer doesnt want the picts of the coffins is because they would be tied to him and rightfully so. obummer and bieden and everyone else that said anything that put CROSS HAIRS on the units back are traitors. The old saying LOOSE LIPS SINKS SHIPS, well they sure helped sink that air ship now didnt they!
@Coldwarrior57:
Good point, Coldwarrior.
In fact that old adage should have been the theme of every briefing Obama/Biden attended regarding the original op.
Instead, it seems, neither man was even aware that Loose Lips Sink Ships.
One of the posters yesterday linked to the writer of the piece all about the bin Laden raid.
In the piece the writer implied (inferred?) he was able to listen in on radio chatter to build his narrative.
He admitted he had not actually interviewed any of the Navy SEAL team involved.
Again Loose Lips!
The only place where secrets are well kept in this Obama Admin is within the White House and DOJ where stonewalling Congressional subpoenas seem to have become an art form.
This is pretty low for you guys. Using our combat dead to score political points against the Commander-in-Cheif is beneath the pale.
Shut the Phuck Up for Christ sake and stop attack him for a military set-back.
IT IS A DIRECT ATTACK AGAINST THE MORALE OF OUR TROOPS.
I despised the liberals when they did it against Bush and will not tolerate it from our side. Don’t be a ghoul.
It is my understanding that some of the families are quite upset as the names of the fallen were released prior to family notification.
Those SEALs became HVTs. If they were there after the ObL fiasco, they should have been extracted IMMEDIATELY. And they damn sure should have been extracted from Afghanistan after Bob Gates admitted that they, and their families, were now placed in harm’s way because of that idiot that occupies the Oval Office and his big mouthed VP.
But hey, the movie will be out on 10-12-2012. I venture a guess it will show Obama loading up in a stealth helo, along with RuPaul. Michelle Antoinette will help him land in the court yard, throw Obama over the wall, jumping it behind him. When they find ObL, MA will quickly start shoving arugula down bin Laden’s throat, Obama will be paying his speeches from an IPod and ObL will grab his own gun and blow his own brains out just the make the misery stop. Even that left wing idiot Maureen Dodd admitted that the movie producers have unprecedented access to the Obama administration and documents regarding the ObL raid. All set to appear just two short weeks before the election. Could this be the reason that Marxist, Matt Damon, is sporting a new buzz cut?
Thanks for the correction, Aye. I should have known such a decent act couldn’t have come from from obozo.
“I despised the liberals when they did it against Bush and will not tolerate it from our side.”
“Our side”–hahaha,.. right.
Yeah, sure you did, Ivan the terrible Moby.
Your act is transparent and getting old.
Get a new hobby.
@ Ivan , its not scoring points at all. It is what it is. Its a statement in fact that he has no idea what the hell he is doing up there. He never should have released the ID of the unit that had anyting to do with it. The unit and their families were affraid rightfully so of attacks on themselves personally here at home. Instead I would guess that AQ knew what units were there and set up the trap. Again all obama admin fault. from what I undstand he ( obummer) asked for the name of the shooters , the units reponse WE ALL DID. obummer sure likes to use the military as a stage prop when he can. But he assumes none of the RESPONSIBILTY when he has all the authority.
Would we not expect any president to make frequent mention of the attainment of a national goal that took ten years to accomplish in the days immediately following? Self-adulation seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Obama must be the first American president who can’t use a first-person pronoun without arousing anger. Credit was fully given by Obama where it was due, to the extent that concerns for the participants’ personal safety allowed.
Nope, Biden didn’t leak this information. The VP’s first public mention of Seal Team 6 was on the night of May 3 at an Atlantic Council 50th anniversary commemoration. This information had already being widely reported in the press on May 2. “Seal Team 6” was so well known before Biden mentioned it that lawyers from the Walt Disney Corporation had already scurried in and tried to register it as a trademark.
No he didn’t.There are no Navy Seals located at Ft. Campbell, KY. It’s an Army base. The team was brought in and the decorations were awarded there to avoid any clue as to the location and identities of those who participated.
A revenge threat from the Taliban? What a shocker.
Let’s all hope al Qaeda and Taliban leaders are losing sleep worrying about U.S. commando teams tunneling up through the floor. They should all keep stethoscopes handy to listen for the digging.
I’m not clear on what other useful information Schmidle has given away.
Consider what the lead line of the posted article says: “U.S. Special Operations troops were closing in on a clandestine Taliban meeting thought to include a high-value commander in Afghanistan’s rugged Tangi Valley when they ran into an insurgent patrol that pinned them down.”
High-value commanders who are active in war zones tend to be associated with heavily armed fighters who guard them. “Just happened to” doesn’t actually apply to the situation. The enemy knows how to wage warfare. They’re highly skilled at it. They’ve been doing it for a long time.
They also know how effective a simple RPG launcher can be against low altitude helicopters.
This was a tragic loss. I think everyone should refrain from politicizing it. Those who were lost while doing their jobs deserve better.
@Nan G:
Don’t you realize why he doesn’t want their remains photographed? People would be aghast at the site of 33 coffins. The people would fully realize this was the doing of the obama administration. barry can’t let that happen because he is in full campaign mode.
It is disgusting that barry is using those fallen men for a photo op.
@Greg:Greg
See Gates’ statement about keeping things under wraps.
@disenchanted:
While those on the Left certainly might have used flag-draped coffins become props to unseat GWBush….had photographing them been allowed…. I highly doubt people on the Right would do the same.
After all, Obama has already been responsible (as Commander-in-Chief) more soldiers coming home dead than Bush was.
Through all of Operation Enduring Freedom, according to the database, 1,684 men and women have been lost.
Of those, 1,069 happened on Obama’s watch.
If those on the Right wanted to USE these heros as props, it would have been done by now.
Obviously, those on the Right are not like that.
Greg #17 As is usually the case you have brought reasoned perspective to the wild and unfounded accusations of Herr Dr.(?) Physician heal thyself (ODS) Luke 4:23
Dr.John is now giving aid and comfort to the Taliban, just like Sen. Kerry did for the North Viet Namese.
And Flopping Aces has become the “Jane Fonda” of said aid and comfort.
@Dr.John, I take you at your word that you figured this out for yourself, before anything appeared in the news media. Congratulations. Your analysis was brilliant.
I don’t think that the administration gave any details of the raid, beyond the bare essentials. Navy Seals. Helicopters, etc. Most of that was known to the Taliban (one of the helicopters was left inside Bin Laden’s compound). I suppose that they could have concealed the fact that it was a Seal mission (as opposed to a Ranger mission, or whatever), but I doubt that this made any difference at all (whether they were Seals or Rangers or whatever).
It seems like the “useful” information (modus operandi details) were provided in the New Yorker article:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/08/110808fa_fact_schmidle?currentPage=all
This obviously didn’t come from Obama, or Biden but from the Dept of Defense, including people in the Dept of the Navy who made the Seals available to be interviewed. It really doesn’t come across as a self-aggrandizement attempt. The Navy shouldn’t have given out the detailed information, if this information was in any way classified.
What the New Yorker article does do is to illustrate that Obama’s role in the bin Laden mission was vastly more substantive than it has been made out to be on this blog (which made it look as if Obama were little more than a passive afterthought). Gates called it the guttiest political decision that he’d ever observed, and Gates’ career dates back to the 1970s (he was involved with the planning of the abortive Iranian hostage rescue mission in the Carter years). I’d recommend the New Yorker article (linked above). It’s remarkable, how difficult it was to pull off that particular mission.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
@Ivan, I do wish you’d quit assuming that one “reader post” is the entire entity of Flopping Aces, and that drj speaks for all of us. Quite a nasty habit you have.
As to this post… I have no idea what it’s all about… attempting to lay blame on a POTUS/CiC that everyone knows I disdain, and a gaffe prone Veep. That makes about as much sense as blaming Bush for AQ operatives, flying buildings into the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and attempting another DC political authority landmark (Congress or the White House).
Was there a trap? Obviously. The enemy was ready and waiting. But, if this little ditty is implying that trap was set by our military leaders, NATO leaders – or that an armchair general in the US can second guess a commander’s method of handling missions and intel – it’s way off base. It was the Taliban who set the trap, and with the aid of a corrupt Afghan army enemy infiltrator… something that ain’t unusual in that neck of the woods, or even here when you consider our wacked out jihadi in US uniforms, shooting up bases on American soil.
This enemy has always adapted well since our official conflict after Sept 11th. It wouldn’t take rocket science to figure out you can invite a US or NATO raid, luring them to a vulnerable location, by leaking a high profile target would be present. The nature of how that raid takes place may vary, but the location was well sited so that the approach path was limited. Therefore geography, more than leaked mission details, played largely in this tragic event.
And would the Taliban love to nail a SEAL unit? Of course. But then, a US body count is a US body count to them. There was at least a second chopper who did a hard landing, and I don’t know how many aircraft were involved all together. But I’m quite sure the enemy would be leaping for joy if they took down more aircraft, SEALs aboard or not.
One could well complain about the quality of intel, and the inability to ferret out the infilatrators with more dexterity, but there will always be holes no matter what they do. However I have to agree that this is just another way to exercise an ODS type mentality, and fingerpoint the blame for the deaths of warriors away from those who are actually responsible. And I couldn’t disagree more with the distasteful attempt any and all do to politicize this event. It’s war, and s*#t happens.
My heartfelt condolences to the families and friends of the brave warriors who gave them all. And I hope that one day this nation and it’s citizens are worthy as such that their deaths are honored, and not used as a cheap political football.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Seems you have bought into the hype. Schmidle wrote his story as if he had access to the very SEALs that conducted the raid. He later admitted he did not. But what should trouble you is that some fairly unknown journalist had access to high ranking members of our government on what was classified as a top secret operation. Had he published an article like this regarding Normandy, FDR would have thrown his ass in jail and buried the key at sea.
And of course you will recommend the New Yorker article. We know you looooove those left wing publications. Bet you loved them when they were pimping for Valerie Plame, as well. But we are at war, and you can damn sure bet that FDR had greater control over his Navy department than Obama does if facts of a top secret mission were leaking out after just a few days. I guess you think that the stragety used at Normandy would have been leaked within days under FDR.
The truth of the matter is that we have an intel problem in Afghanistan with proven cases of Afghanis turning on our troops. To put those soldiers and SEALs in harm’s way after Gates loudly proclaimed concern for their safety shows you what an inept CIC Obama is. They should have been extracted, or never sent to Afghanistan after the ObL raid. But hey, continue to wear your rose colored glasses. Maybe you can avoid looking at the Dow as well.
Flagged draped coffins only have power when a Republican sits in the Oval Office. Where there is a Democrat there, not so much. Notice how the activities of CodePinko has quieted down? No protest marches with placards of a behead Obama like there was with Bush. No reporters demanding that the coffins be shown, in spite of what the families wish. Remove prayer and any mention of Jesus at the Houston Veteran’s Cemetary. Downplay the fact that in two short years, Obama has lost more soldiers in Afganistan than Bush did in 8 years.
@retire:
I recommended it, because it was a well-written and informative article. Articles are written by individual journalists. There are great articles in the New Yorker. There are not so great articles, appearing in the same place.
I’m curious…just off the top of your head, can you list 10 national magazines that would make your approved reading list?
This isn’t a challenge or flip off. I’m simply curious.
– Larry W/HB
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/loose-lips-gates-says-info-leaks-has-seal-team-6-fearing-for-its-safety/
An anonymous government source also revealed the identity of the soldiers lost in the helicopter downing.
@retire05:
Perhaps that’s because for some reason the Bush administration decided to move The War on Terror to Iraq. Apparently Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda, and the Taliban didn’t receive the email.
Americans killed in Iraq: 4,474
Americans wounded in Iraq: 33,105
Total estimated cost of the War in Iraq: $3 trillion +
Larry, you recommened The New Yorker article based on the assumption that the author had access to the Navy SEALs involved in the ObL mission. He later admitted he did not, but never admitted that it was his intent to give that impression.
I really don’ t like magazines, and have never relied on them to provide me with news. The magazines I have subscribed to in the [distant] past have been:
Western Horseman
The Civil War Times
This Old House
Cowboys and Indians
The Smithonian Magazine
National Geographic
Magazines like The New Yorker long ago became nothing more than propaganda sheets for the Democrat Party. Even the research coming out of the left wing UCLA shows that 90% of ALL journalists are left wing. Why would I want to read the clap-trap they put out? There are few honest journalist, going all the way back to Walter Lippman and his protoge, Walter Cronkite. Journalism, true journalism, died a long time ago. Now we have nothing but op-ed pundits, in the tradition of the Frankfort Marxists that taught them.
Greg:
How about $1.3 trillion for two wars.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933935.html
The $3 trillion figure (which you did not source) probably includes present and future estimated indirect economic costs and estimated future costs related to veterans. In other words, things that are highly debatable and can’t be known accurately, and money that has not been spent yet.
@Greg:
Greg, get someone to buy you a map. Iraq has strategic value. Afghanistan has none.
And if you think that all the intel developed to be able to kill bin Laden was developed under Obama’s direction, you are too far gone to hold a conversation with any rational thinking person.
@MataHarley:
Amen!
A rare instance where I will agree with Ivan:
@Nan G #20:
If there were such a thing as a Bush 3rd term, do you think that death count would look much different?
The politicization of this is disgusting.
@Greg:
They didn’t move the WoT to Iraq; they included Iraq (with real concerns regarding terror ties), and the WoT has been waged all across the globe- not just militarily on two battlefields.
bin Laden and al Qaeda most suredly did get “the email”, as Iraq became a graveyard for al Qaeda.
Zawahiri stated the importance of winning Iraq and making it the new super Caliphate.
Retire: I am familiar with some of these mags.
Western Horseman : I quit reading it when they published pictures of fat guys drinking beer. 20 yrs ago, too close to home
The Civil War Times: I studied this phase of history until I doubted my sanity and quit, cold turkey. Good mag.
This Old House: I’ve never seen this one.
Cowboys and Indians: Nice mag, I read it now and then for the pics and advertisements.
The Smithonian Magazine: Quit reading when their Leftist agenda was no longer hidden.
National Geographic: Overboard with Leftist views; although, I especially liked the half naked island girls 50 years ago, very charming. I spent many hours studying the photos.
Now if there were some serious editors who were interested in regaining market share, they might ask themelves if promoting the agenda of the Left is worth putting so many mags on the ropes.
I thought about this article while working after lunch. I try to only work eight hours twice a day. Dr J is entitled to speculate with back-up, final editorial decision in his case rests with Curt.
Emotions and imaginations combined with intellect can produce interesting and provocative results. This story may play out in the future or it may be a nagging conspiracy theory for a hundred years or more.
Editorial responsibility is a big job, in the end it defines the direction of a printed organ or in our case a blog. One article doesn’t define a blog and it is necessary for those of us who care to challenge ideas to put forth reasoned logic and analysis. Sometimes we are wrong: sometimes the wild ideas become fact. I appreciate the imagination and creativity that goes into a unique report or article.
I am not above the fray by any means. I have made my errors and have learned painful lessons.
The love we feel for these valiant warriors makes us want to strike out at anyone evenly remotely responsible. An administration that seems to care little for our warriors until there is political hay to be harvested is suspicious to many of us. After all this, I think we need to dig deeper and keep a critical eye on the situation, while we show the most respect possible for these most courageous of the brave.
Skookum, This Old House was a magazine dedicated to restoring old homes. My home was built in 1905, and you don’t remodel an old house the same way you do a modern home, if you want to keep it historically correct.
As I said, I read those magazine in the distant past.
As to “news” magazines, there are NONE that don’t lean left except for maybe The National Review. Years ago I worked for a famous American publication. Even back then, the only conservative reporters were the financial reporters. All the others were progressives. The press, envisioned by the Founders who thought so much of it that they specifically mentioned it, would have rolled over in their graves starting with Woodrow Wilson.
@Wm T Sherman, #31:
That’s correct. It’s assumed that certain indirect economic costs of war are inescapable and can be estimated. The $1.3 trillion figure ignores such costs altogether, in effect assuming them to be zero. There’s also an assumption that the government will make good on its promise “to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan”, although there’s an emerging difference of opinion lately regarding the nation’s obligation to honor such long-standing social contracts. Those costs are projected and included. The $1.3 trillion figure simply ignores them.
I consider it misleading not to include such things in any general statement regarding the cost of a war–particularly when they’re cumulative as the wars pile up, just like annual deficits are cumulative, adding to the total debt.
MataHarley#24 I think you can get a job at the War college, I think you ‘ve got alot of the right moves. Yes the Shooter is back. Good intel ???? Barry putting a WANTED poster on the internet for all the world to see !!!! Seals on a join op with Rangers ???? what happened to SF or Delta ???? I’ll keep this as simple as possible****What is the name of the movie were a Recon force paints the TARGET for the smart bomb to do its work (BIG CARTEL gathering) You know the one with Harrison Ford, the Drug Cartel**come on someone help me.
If we are killing everyone with SMART bombs or DRONES WHY*WHY then do we put 22 plus other elites in a flying Bus. (AMBUSH) I thought the Seals learned something when they lost a team in Panama???? As I said before a good shooter could have taken out Benny (2 men-1 shoot) and the more I think about what I just said WHY*WHY didn’t a Recon team paint a target on Benny’s compound ??????
I stand by my post.
There are any number of ways to analyze what happened. Among the most critical questions are:
– Why were Spec Ops used? Why not Predators and Hellfires? What could they not do that boots on the ground could do?
– This was an HVT mission. Who green lighted the mission? Who sent in the reinforcements?
– Rangers got themselves over their heads? Seriously? Was recon so poor that they did not consider being pinned down in their mission effort?
Almost immediately after the news broke I believed this was an ambush. I took a crap here and at HuffPo for that assertion.
Do I think Obama wants another trophy for the mantle? I certainly do.
Do I think Obama could become intoxicated by the success of the OBL raid? I certainly do. This becomes more appealing to those who believe Obama was not first on the brain buffet.
You can argue Obama’s motives or the lack thereof but the rest of the post has proven to be meritorious. There are many questions that need to be answered. Then we’ll see where the truth lies, although with Obama as President the truth have been shot down with the Chinook, not to be recovered.
Greg, #17:
IF you go back to May 2nd and read which articles link to which, Greg, you soon learn they all trace back to this one:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8487355/Osama-bin-Laden-killed-how-the-deadly-US-raid-unfolded.html
And, if you search (read) that article you find this:
In other words, the title is misleading in that the body of the article does NOT back it up.
But that didn’t stop other news outlets from running with the information.
THEN Joe Biden CONFIRMED the rumor as true.
———-
Mata, I disagree with you respectfully.
I think Obama speeding up our end day, telegraphing to the enemy our leaving and other policies, has made our men more at risk than Bush would have.
But that’s just my opinion.
As Mata said in #24, the approach path was limited. But what bothers me most about the Taliban bragging they set up the ambush knowing the chopper would have to fly over this particular valley is the fact that anyone deployed overseas is told to vary their routes so this does not happen. After bin Laden was taken out, the threat against our troops grew exponentially, especially against our special forces. They, of all people, should have taken measures to vary their routes, just as aircraft in the states fly under over and around dangerous storms. The whole thing still stinks. They were shot down on their way back from the mission. They were not in a hurry, so they did not have to take the direct route. There was plenty of time to take an alternate, indirect, safer exit.
@Toothfairy:
But, Toothfairy, our special forces PILOTs were NOT on board that particular chopper that day.
Regular pilots and crew were.
The training differences between the two sets of pilots and crew are vast.
@Nan G #42: I’m not sure if any of the pilots and crew members who have flown so many combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan can be called “regular pilots and crew.” My hats are off to all of them — special forces or not.
My point was simply that anyone stationed overseas is cautioned to vary their routes to avoid ambush situations. This was drilled into family members in Europe during the Bader Meinhof and Red Brigade days. It’s “training” everyone receives.
@retire (#30): Thanks for your forthright answer to my question. Straight up answer.
@word (#33)
This has become the classic post-hoc rationalization of Iraq. Well, this plus the concept that Saddam had WMD after all, as evidenced by some ordnance left over from the Iraq/Iran War.
I never liked the idea of taking over someone else’s country and turning it into a mousetrap for outside enemies of the USA, from other countries, without the consent of said mousetrap’s citizens. Zawahiri never would have had the opportunity to even fantasize about turning Iraq into a super caliphate, until we created a vacuum by deposing Saddam. For several tense and bloody years, Iraq was turned into the Oklahoma land rush of Greater Somalia. This is what presented Al Qaeda with an opportunity, which perhaps became their mousetrap (or even death trap). If so, it was pure serendipity. You can’t tell me that it was planned this way from the start, or that the country and the world would have gone along with it, had they known the plan, if that’s what the plan was.
Anyway, maybe it will yet turn out to have been victory in war fought for shifting rationales. Or maybe it will turn into a $3 trillion humanitarian disaster.
At this point I’m not interested in blaming anyone, and I’m not even interested in arguing with anyone. It’s pointless to try and do anything other than try to understand what really happened and why it happened and to learn some lessons applicable to future “tough decisions.”
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Greg, #37:
Then off-budget estimates of extended economic costs should be included in your future discussions about all the other, non-miltary money that the government spends as well. What is the extended economic cost of new regulations, mandates, taxes ,and government-spending-driven market distortions? How much tax revenue is actually being lost to shrinking of economic activity from all these drags?
@Toothfairy:
Maybe I was indelicate.
Of course all National Guard crew are trained to fly in a war zone if they are in Afghanistan.
And this crew had been in Afghanistan for almost 2 weeks.
Their CH47 Chinook had 25 SEALs aboard her.
SEALs usually operate in small teams.
The SEALs usual transport is the MH-47E/G .
The 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne) is a special operations unit of the United States Army that provides helicopter aviation support for general purpose forces and Special Operations Forces.
According to some sources there were some MH-47E/G of the 106 SOAR unit available.
But instead the NG group that had been in-country for less than two weeks was tapped.
So, yes, the NG crew was trained, but it was not trained up to the level of a special ops crew that was also available.
So, why were they tapped?
One day we are going to find out who ordered all those SEALs into that NG CH47 for that mission.
Thoothfairy, culd it be that they notice the the gunner as they where raising the CHINOOK UP
THEN you said they where not in a hurry, so that is probable and the one who spot the launcher
down below, yeled to accelerate , and the CHINOOK FAILED TO QUICK ACCELERATE
because it has done many flights and lacked of a needed check on that accelaration particular part,
of the engine,
I read a long time ago that the sand over there packt in any thing that move with parts and has to be checked more often than usual. I AM ASSUMING OF SOME CLUE TO LEARN OVER THERE that could be helpfull for the future ops
bye
Bees, the questions in your first paragraph are better left to a helicopter expert.
As for the sand, if there were any problems with the equipment, I’m sure the investigation will uncover them and adjustments will be made if necessary.
@Nan G: Yes, and someday maybe we’ll know who gave our guys the intel that led them into the trap in the first place. The Taliban leader claimed it was four Pakistanis.
@Nan G:
Indeed. There are many questions to be answered.