Mark Levin – Republicans Have Nothing To Be Giddy About; Don’t Allow Democrats To Shape The Message

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Mark Levin has a point here:

[audio:https://floppingaces.net/Audio/levin120910.mp3]

You know I’m a little concerned, I see all these Republican operatives on tv and radio, they’re very giddy. Republican columnists, Republican websites, they’re all excited. Think they have Obama on the run. Think the Democrats are imploding. All giddy.

Well count me out. I’m worried. They have nothing to be giddy about. I’m worried, very worried, and let me tell you why.

You’ve got Obama being attacked for not being radical enough…and he’s a radical! And so the big media and Obama’s staff are positioning him as a centrist or a moderate of some kind. And he’s positioning himself as a populist. So the more they squawk on the nutjob left, of which Obama is a member, the more reasonable he’s going to appear. And this worries me.

One of the more important points he makes is that our leadership doesn’t appear to have the capability to get the message out. If this bad deal collapses is the Republican leadership positioned to point the finger at the people responsible, namely the Democrats?

Listen to the Socialist Keith Ellison:

I think we need to create a real crisis here so that the Republicans will have to answer for denying Americans unemployment benefits on the eve of the Christmas holiday. I don’t think they would do that. But we didn’t create that crisis. We let them off the hook in my opinion.

They will work hard to create this crisis and our Republican leadership better be able to get the truth out and not let slimy Democrats like Ellison shape the message.

Jim Demint is doing his part to get the message out. He sent out a press release that said he would not support this deal. Some of the reasons given:

  • 200 billion in new deficit spending
  • Extends the cuts for only two years
  • Increases the death tax from 0 to 35%
  • Dozens of earmarks for special interests

Earmarks like:

ethanol subsidies, tax breaks for film and television producers, give aways for Puerto Rican rum manufacturers, favors for auto racing track owners, and a hand out for businesses in American Samoa.

Good for him…but like Levin, I’m worried they aren’t up for the job. Hell, look how the Republican leadership is giving leadership positions to those members who shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near these chairs. Our leadership didn’t get the message apparently.

The American people didn’t rise up to give Boehner what he wants. They rose up to take their country back.

Exit note – Van Jones “We are coming for the media and that’s not all”

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I stand corrected on the reason for the sunset provision, but that’s a minor point. The tax cuts were justified by the fact that the government was running a surplus and the surplus was projected to continue far out into the future. It was on this basis that Greenspan and others supported it and it’s owing to the fact that the future surpluses were illusory that Greenspan and virtually everyone else now concedes that extending these tax cuts will continue to make the debt burden worse.

With regard to the 24 page PDF, I’ve now printed it out. What I want to see is actual numbers, year by year, so that I can compare these with the numbers on the table I quoted. Aye’s explanation is that the Brooking’s institution “massages” data — but these data are simple, direct, clear-cut. They aren’t massaged data, there simply raw data, which tell a very clear and consistent story.

This should be a very simple dispute to resolve. We are arguing tax receipts by year. The data in my table are 100% clear cut and they square with the interpretation of every contemporary economic interpretation I’ve been able to find.

But I’ll read the 24 page PDF and get back.

– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA

I wanted to correct a simple misspelling on my previous post (#58), but I get a message saying “you don’t have permission to edit this message.” Never got that before. ???? Anyway, “there” should have been “they’re,” as in “they’re simply raw data.”

@mata (#57): You keep making excuses for Presidents (Reagan and Bush, circa 2007-2008), claiming that Congress forces them to spend money and the Dems had congressional majorities. Well, no. The President prepares the budget and all Congress can generally do about it is add it a little pork and both parties do this about equally. The only substantive budgetary thing that I ever remember congress doing during my lifetime was to de-fund the Vietnam War, which cut spending and didn’t increase it. Reagan did a massive defense increase; the Democrats didn’t want to be labeled sissies and appeasers and they gave him what he wanted. Reagan also wanted tax cuts and the surest way to lose an election is to oppose a tax cut; so he got his way on this, as well.

The massive Reagan deficits were a direct result of Reagan policies; just at the massive Bush deficits were the direct result of Bush policies. Congress couldn’t hold a gun to the head of either and didn’t hold a gun to the head of either.

– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach

@ MataHarley, #57:

Well duh… think that has anything to do with…. WAIT for it!… SPENDING????

Until republicans propose specific spending cuts that actually add up to enough to offset the revenue lost to tax cuts, spending cuts have no place whatsoever in any reality-based discussion of the budget. One might as well be talking about the impact of unicorns or hippogriffs.

Greg… is this your kettle/pot moment? That’s got to be the biggest pile of manure you’ve stepped in over the past few months! LOL

GOP wanted an up/down vote on tax policy extensions… NOT a tax cut.

Now… Mr. Kettle… your heroes porked it up with more tax cuts (which they aren’t paying for…) in addition to the UI extension doubling to next Christmas for future blackmail.

Let’s pile on more of that manure, shall we? As I noted in Saturday post about the Dem’s last hurrah spending binge, they are busy spending and not offseting the tax cuts they, themselves, demanded be added to the Bush tax policy, by sliding in a mother of a stimulus/omnibus thru the continuining resolution. Gawd… can this group get any sleazier? Another 2000 pg monstrosty concocted in the dark of night and in the back rooms, thrown out just before a holiday. I must have been ahead of my time, since my Saturday story is all the rage today… took ’em enough time to catch up to the obvious, didn’t it? LOL

Now, Greg… what were you talking about INRE unicorns or hippogriffs, bubba? Who the heck do you think you’re addressing in this forum… the blind, deaf and dumb?

This should be a very simple dispute to resolve. We are arguing tax receipts by year. The data in my table are 100% clear cut and they square with the interpretation of every contemporary economic interpretation I’ve been able to find.

Reframing the question to fit your answers now, Larry? I have stated several times this is a study on the tax revenues as it relates to specific tax policies since 1939. Cause and effect, zero’ed in specifically.

You’re still eating zucchini here, guy. Read the report so you know what it’s saying, instead of changing around the argument to suit what you have in front of you.

@Greg:

1) Did Obie base his budget numbers on the extended rates…or did he base his budget on higher rates that may, or may not, come to pass?

2) What tax cuts are you referring to? Last I checked there aren’t any, just the extension of rates that have been in place nearly a decade.

@ Aye, #63:

2) What tax cuts are you referring to? Last I checked there aren’t any, just the extension of rates that have been in place nearly a decade.

Since when does doing something for a second time mean that you haven’t really done anything at all?

@ MataHarley, #65:

Republicans could have blocked the entire deal and taken it all back up after their new majority was seated, couldn’t they?

Why yes, Greg. And I railed about that in my Saturday post, plus on Curt’s thread. No blind support from me.

Still waiting for you to abandon yours for the lib/progs and ‘fess up with some honesty. But noooo… you make snippy remarks about the GOP, who are damaging, but look like Scrooge compared to this group. Sorry… don’t take that from you.

@mata (#62): I’ve now read it (the 24 page PDF).

You don’t understand your own graph!

Your data are completely consistent with my data and they prove my point and directly refute your point.

You’ve mislabeled your own graph.

I don’t have the time to explain it now.

But I will, when I get the chance.

P.S. You might take the opportunity to find your mistake yourself and save some face. It was an honest mistake on your part. I make them myself, from time to time.

– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA

I do see your point of contention, Larry. So let me compose a mea culpa comment here based on some specifics. And I’ll even include Billy Bob as well. (ouch.. LOL) CORRECTION: Nope… sunsetted this since I didn’t read the graph trends incorrectly.

Now, for the purposes of this mea culpa debate, I’m going to have to assume your particular brand of “revenue loss”… meaning that the earnings of US taxpayers belong to the government to take, or give back, at will. It’s not a concept I endorse in any fashion. But it’s necessary for me to assume your point of view for this comment to make any sense whatsoever. However, personally, I still assert that money not stolen from the breadwinners by government is not a loss. It is money that Congress shouldn’t be spending because it’s not theirs.

Using the fourth year after enactment figures” the total mean revenue loss for Reagan’s combination tax policies (cuts and increases) from recovering Carter recession days is $76.8 bil. On the flip side, Clintons’ tax policies… also a combo of increases and cuts… left us with a revenue loss of $45.2. Both administrations left us with a “loss”, using your school of thought. So yes, I read the graphs wrong, as Billy Bob accused me… correctly… of doing. (again, ouch… LOL) because what I should have done was combine all the tax policies to get an overall mean average of loss or gain. Then again, Billy Bob read them wrong as well. CORRECTION: Actually, I did not read the graphs incorrectly at all. Retracted.

So I’ll mea culpa that the Reagan years were a mean revenue loss (using the tax bill effects estimates alone) with the combination of tax policies.

I will also cap that with the Clinton tax policy years were also a mean revenue loss. And Clinton enjoyed better business environment with both the dot com bubble and the onset of the housing bubble.

Yet… per the study’s quoted verbage:

Second, in 1981, ERTA was enacted, which provided for the indexation of the individual income tax parameters. [Mata musing: which eliminated the reasons for the continued tax cuts for the “bracket creep” indexing]l The combination of indexation and relatively large federal budget deficits helped cause 9 of the 11 major tax bills enacted between 1982 and 1993 to increase federal revenue.

Third, all 8 of the major tax bills enacted after 1993 have reduced federal revenue, some as a result of soaring federal revenue in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s that pushed the federal budget into surplus for the first time in many years.

Ya know, it’s hard to reconcile that comment about the Reagan years, which also includes only one of Clinton’s tax bills – the first Omnibus tax increase. You see, of the bills the comment mentions as revenue increases, one was Clinton’s, one of Bush 41’s, and the rest were Reagan policies. This doesn’t indicate that the Reagan tax policies were losers across the board.

What Reagan did was deal with the economy in a combination of tax cuts and increases…. so he lowered tax rates for Joe Citizen, but it also increased the amount of revenue from those dreaded “wealthiest of Americans”. In other words, the shift of the burden of taxes to the more wealthy started with Reagan.


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Chris Frenze did an analysis of the tax burden shift, based on actual published IRS data on federal tax payments (not the “estimates” used for this particular study). Naturally, you probably won’t like it because he was the Chief Economist to the vice chair of the 1996 JEC. He said this about the way the tax revenue trickled into the IRS.

The share of the income tax burden borne by the top 10 percent of taxpayers increased from 48.0 percent in 1981 to 57.2 percent in 1988. Meanwhile, the share of income taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers dropped from 7.5 percent in 1981 to 5.7 percent in 1988.

A middle class of taxpayers can be defined as those between the 50th percentile and the 95th percentile (those earning between $18,367 and $72,735 in 1988). Between 1981 and 1988, the income tax burden of the middle class declined from 57.5 percent in 1981 to 48.7 percent in 1988. This 8.8 percentage point decline in middle class tax burden is entirely accounted for by the increase borne by the top one percent.

Several conclusions follow from these data. First of all, reduction in high marginal tax rates can induce taxpayers to lessen their reliance on tax shelters and tax avoidance, and expose more of their income to taxation. The result in this case was a 51 percent increase in real tax payments by the top one percent. Meanwhile, the tax rate reduction reduced the tax payments of middle class and poor taxpayers. The net effect was a marked shift in the tax burden toward the top 1 percent amounting to about 10 percentage points. Lower top marginal tax rates had encouraged these taxpayers to generate more taxable income.

The 1993 Clinton tax increase appears to having the opposite effect on the willingness of wealthy taxpayers to expose income to taxation. According to IRS data, the income generated by the top one percent of income earners actually declined in 1993. This decline is especially significant since the retroactivity of the Clinton tax increase in that year limited the ability of taxpayers to deploy tax avoidance strategies, temporarily resulting in an increase in their tax burden. Moreover, according to the FY 1997 Clinton budget submission, individual income tax revenues as a share of GDP will be lower during the first four years of the Clinton tax increase, which include the effects of the 1990 tax increase, than under the last four years of the Reagan tax changes (FY 1986-89). Furthermore, according to a study published by the National Bureau for Economic Research,[2] the Clinton tax hike is failing to collect over 40 percent of the projected revenue increases.

What Clinton did was raise taxes on everyone except the lowest 50%, where they taxes were actually cut. Additionally, he added burdens to small business and, with the exception of his Tax Relief Act in 1997, pretty much focused his increases not on the wealthy, but on Joe Citizen. During the Clinton dot com boom, the majority of citizens were more flush with cash, and could more easily absorb the Clintonian tax policies without getting into distress… so they thought. However the mid 90s also began the rapid rise of consumer debt going to record levels by the early turn of the century. Were they really able to absorb the Clinton tax structures? Or were they merely using the EZ money era to rob Peter to pay Paul?

Now is not the time to play “Clinton”.

Additionally, Reagan’s tax increases centered more around investors, SS payroll taxes, and a temporary gas tax increase of 5 cents for six years. and a 16 cent increase on cigarette taxes. The later two are consumer/product based and not a mandate across all citizens, while the bulk of the rest of his increases are business taxes. Yet both Joe Citizen and businesses began to recover from Carter policies and thrive.

From the brief bits I have read of the deficit reduction commission proposals, they suggest doing much the same by reducing the tax rates across the board, but eliminating the tax credits, business write offs, etc. Whether this pencils out as an overall increase in taxes for everyone, we’d have to have a test case. But it’s the first return to Reaganesque tax policies I’ve see of late.

Back to GDP, your favorite measurement. The total of four year averages for all Reagan policies had a minus .88 effect on the GDP. Clinton’s tax policies had a plus .49 effect on the GDP. Thus the reason the study’s author says that the effect on the GDP of most tax policies… cuts or increases… are likely to be small and uncertain.

But when it comes to a recession, leaving that cash in the pocket of Joe Citizen makes a huge difference.

So, Larry… you have my mea culpa. Reagan tax policies did indeed result in the government not being able to steal approx $76 billion more from taxpayers and businesses, and I read the graph wrong. Now you have a mea culpa INRE the Clinton era… since his tax policies prevented the government from stealing an additional $45 billion from the same. Credit wasn’t easy and fast under Reagan, and people lived within their means. Not so during both Clinton and Bush era.

And the effect of both on the GDP was minimal.

And now we’ve reached today. Have I changed my mind? Hang no…. Reagan’s policies reversed a recession. Clinton’s policies resulted in a loss during a financial boom. Why would I? Tax cuts for income, and revamp the tax code for credits and write offs for business. And then have Congress live with what comes in… not what they want to come in.

@ MataHarley, #68:

Still waiting for you to abandon yours for the lib/progs and ‘fess up with some honesty. But noooo… you make snippy remarks about the GOP, who are damaging, but look like Scrooge compared to this group. Sorry… don’t take that from you.

I’m not a blind supporter of the democratic party, but I’ll take ’em over the current incarnation of the GOP any day. My suspicion about the forces that are taking control of the GOP is that they don’t really care if they create a budgetary train wreck. They may actually see that as an expedient means of dismantling 78 years of social progress by forcing the government into bankruptcy, while transfering the wealth of the nation to an emergent ruling minority in the process. The rest of us can fight over what’s left, and deal with the consequences of the collapse.

That’s what I think I see happening. I’m not especially happy about it.

Greg: My suspicion about the forces that are taking control of the GOP is that they don’t really care if they create a budgetary train wreck.

Greg, the GOP is not the ones “creating” a budgetary train wreck. Six decades of majority Dim power in Congress already did that. While the GOP isn’t slowing the train enough to suit me, the Dims still are running flat out full speed on spending. Additionally, if anyone’s been in the pocket of big business and finance, it’s this administration. They’ve created a “no fail zone” for banking, rescued private auto industries and seized control, gave the power of that to the unions and then sold out at a loss on the public shares.

And you’re worried about the GOP? Give me a break.

@Mata – Another aspect as per the Reagan tax cuts is that (and I apologize if you have already covered this) in his second term, he reformed the IRS tax code, eliminating tons of loopholes that the upper income tax bracket folks had been using when the top marginal rate was in the 70% range. Once those were eliminated, the revenues naturally went up.

@Greg #69: You said:

They may actually see that as an expedient means of dismantling 78 years of social progress…

That is a very, VERY revealing statement about your rigid ideology. You are basically saying that you favor FDR, LBJ, Obama, etc….’s “social justice” mode of governing. Wealth redistribution, anyone? Any false statements by you about being a moderate, or a centrist will get a quick referral to this one true thing you uttered in comment #69 on this thread.

Wow.

I’m half Jewish, and Jews have a word for what Mata wrote in #70. It’s called chutzpah.

You wanna talk spin?

Mata, I gave you the chance to do the honorable thing, and admit, just once (as I have, on a number of occasions in my Internet debate life, which dates to 1993) that you are not only wrong, but you are dead wrong.

Pride goeth before the fall.

It’s 1 AM and I don’t have the energy, but, man, is this ever going to be fun.

Nothing is better than doing it with a worthy opponent.

To be continued.

P.S. “Chris Frenze”

lol

– Larry

Larry, want to talk about spin or dishonesty in this debate? You’ve cornered the market. I have previously asked you to prove your contention that the revenue increase from Reagan’s tax cuts were due to increased tax collection. You did not. You didn’t even try.
I’ve pointed out how your debt to GDP standard is a joke and easily abused to prove your point. Yet you insist on essentially claiming it’s unimpeachable when it’s anything but.
You are even blind to the inconsistancies in your posts. You absurdly claim that presidents have no control over the economy, yet want to give obama (your hero) credit for jobs he didn’t even create!

On another debate you wanted me to produce economists to support my claim. I did and you ignored them. Further up I see you play the economist game again. I do have links to economists who feel that tax cuts increase revenue, but I know you’ll ignore them or claim “no serious” economist thinks that way as you have before. That’s called an appeal to authority Larry, not proof of claim. It’s what those in denial do to avoid considering they are wrong.

You do not debate honestly and those of us paying attention see that. I know you cannot see it as you are not capable of doing so. You have way too much ego tied up into your belief system to admit you’re wrong. In the meantime I’ll watch as you continue to build your house of cards.

BTW Larry, the president CAN have a negative impact on the economy if the policies he is pushing are harmful to businesses, taxpayers, etc. Your attempt to excuse Carter and Obama was pathetic. You have seriously earned the delusional title.

@Larry, you can corner no market on being part Jewish, nor can you corner it on having chutzpah. Sorry guy… you’ll have to share.

Not sure what brings out your very ungracious response. I did mea culpa and admit my graph reading errors. Did you want me to redraw the line? Is that it? Or is it the reality that the whole nonsense of “tax cuts” is offensive to me because I don’t believe the government owns our earnings, and should be able to count what they don’t steal as as “loss” of income? That belief will never change, and I suspect is the foundation of where we differ.

But hey… for the sake of the mea culpa, I took your view of my money being the government’s… for a time.

In fact, I was more than gracious in my mea culpa, because I did not misread the graphs if the bars represent a cumulative effect of the revenue annual for the year, as a percentage of the GDP… and included effects of all the tax policies. That would have to be because it’s based on figures that included the first four years after enactment. Therefore, the “trends” of increasing revenue, or decreasing revenue are still accurate.

Your issue is that the line I drew fell on the wrong side of the bar for 1981. So sorry… it’s a guestimate. Does that change the trend of increasing revenue for the duration of Reagan’s term? And he did come in via a recession to boot.

As far as the rest, not sure what you dispute. You ahve the figures. Sit down with your calculator, and add up the figures in the fourth year after enactment for the terms. That way you will get the mean average effect for both the tax cuts and the tax increases of each presidential tax policy.

I don’t know what else you want. Don’t think you have nearly enough upper hand for groveling, guy. 😆 I was “honorable” and gracious by both using your notion that our earnings really belong to the government to take and give back at will, and admitting that Reagan’s specific tax policies had a total revenue “loss” of $76 bil over his two terms.

You, on the other hand, didn’t display much grace or honor as a recipient. Apparently you are going to have a hard time admitting Clinton’s policies also had a tax “loss” of $45 bil. Talk about chutzpah, and that the trend was, and remains, downward over his two terms.

Now, I threw in Chris Frenze because he had a point that using revenue estimates vs revenue adjusted can make a difference…. that combined with I knew it would rile the tar out of you. :0) After all, don’t you want to dig up pundits all the time? ala David Brooks… LOL There’s a real brilliant mind for ya. He’s standing on the ladder rung, just above Sean Hannity.

As anticsrocks noted, and as I stated when doing a brief reference on the tax increases Reagan did with his policies above, he revamped the codes by changing those affecting mostly investors and business. And yes, by his doing so, he narrowed the gap that Greg’s always whining about here. This is not desputable since all you have to do is look at the legislation under Reagan, and who it affected.

Post Carter recession, the nation did thrive and grow.

Look at Clinton, who had everything going for him economically. Times of peace, two bubbles, and a GOP Congress who kept his spending reined in, assuring him his second term. He still had that dreaded “revenue loss”. And, of course, left the downward recession spiral on his exit.

I’m glad you’ll have fun. I admitted my errors. Very ungracious of you to spit in it’s face, considering the bulk of your complaint is that I drew a line on the wrong side of the bar. Seems I had to do that because, after several comments and back and forths, it took until yesterday before you even read what it was you were disputing. Contrary Larry, much??

So I tell you what… I just decided to “sunset” my mea culpa since you don’t like it. Revenue trends show increasing revenue under Reagan as a percentage of the GDP, and they show decreasing trends as a percentage of the GDP under Clinton. Oh yes… both of them had a “loss”, according to your philosophy. The nation and business thrived under Reagan’s policies. We’ve spent the last 15 years paying for Clinton’s.

@Larry: I stand corrected on the reason for the sunset provision, but that’s a minor point. The tax cuts were justified by the fact that the government was running a surplus and the surplus was projected to continue far out into the future.

I see… so this is an example of one *not* demonstrating chutzpah, but yet you assail me? 😆

My error on the graph was the line I drew (assuming you didn’t remember when Reagan’s terms were)… a “minor point” when you consider that Reagan’s policies immediately put money back in the pockets of taxpayers, hurting from Carter’s economy, gas lines and double digit mortgage rates. Reagan’s ensuing policies resulted in increasing revenue flow as a percentage of the GDP.

Again, after the first year of Clinton’s tax increases for everyone but the lowest 50%, the graph shows a cumulative negative percentage of the GDP. Hard to argue that, Larry… with any credibility, that is. And to drive that point home, here is the graph from the same study of constant dollars for that same era.

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Nope… mea culpa… except for drawing the line in the wrong place in the graph… a “minor point”… is hereby sunsetted.