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After this, how could she ever expect us to believe that denture story. They don’t have the votes, desparate times.
BRob
14 years ago
Patvann —
Did you note the complete lack of any sourcing on that restate post? Seems to me that someone pulled that out their hindquarters to rile up the increasingly dejected cons!
BRob
14 years ago
Ok . . . you found a 2001 commentary about a 1994 bill that was NEVER PRESENTED TO THE SENATE . . . and you use that to prove . . . what? That an entirely different bill 9 years later that has ALREADY PASSED THE SENATE BY A 60-40 VOTE should not be tweaked by a simple majority vote? Why do you cons insist on ignoring the 60-40 vote that passed the damn bill? As if a supermajority vote means “nothing” because GOPers decided to sit that one out! How nutty!
Cons, this is a done deal . . . and I think I smell the desperation among the cons who know it is a done deal. The Dem House will vote on and pass the Senate bill. It will then go to committee for a reconciliation alteration/trimming. If the paliamentarian says the bill has non-reconcilable stuff in it, some will be lopped off (like the abortion stuff) and sent to the Senate and House separately.
I dare the GOPers in the Senate not to vote thumbs up on the Stupak amendment! Double dog dare ya!
If the reconciliation bill fails, the Senate bill (which passed 60-40) will still be in place. So Obama wins no matter what. And the GOPers? Have to suffer the fact that 30 million people will get health insurance over your objection . . . boo hoo! Delicious!
This is what happens when you play checkers (crowing about Scott Brown’s big win) and the other side is playing chess (figuring out how to make the “big win” irrelevant). Because after all that smug bleating about “the people have spoken” . . . as if a special election outcome in one state should derail legislation that is a year old and hammered out after a national election in 50 states . . . it was such silliness. Betcha wish Scott Brown had not tipped his hand so arrogantly, dontcha!
Hmm . . . seems like a trend. What happens when you remove Rasmussen’s poll of his quant “left handed White Southern GOPers who voted in the last county election” demographic:
I think I now know why Massa was a GOPer star yesterday, why Patvann pulled out a nine year old video of an old man’s recollection about a 1994 bill that was never even submitted to a vote, and why Ricky Cantor and John Kyl have been “advising” their Dems “friends” that it would be best for them if the bill did not pass:
methinks the GOPer polling is telling the same story as the second pollster.com chart!
-Again with the multi-posts….(Telling, isn’t it folks?, as it has become obvious that when he does this, his head is 3 psi from exploding.)
“left handed White Southern GOPers who voted in the last county election”
Ummmm. I guess that the same as “likely voters” to idiots like you…talk about “nutty”.
And in light of your powers of observation (like a good lawyer should have) let’s review this:
I think I now know why Massa was a GOPer star yesterday, why Patvann pulled out a nine year old video of an old man’s recollection about a 1994 bill that was never even submitted to a vote, and why Ricky Cantor and John Kyl have been “advising” their Dems “friends” that it would be best for them if the bill did not pass:
Hey bright-boy…I didn’t post that video, so please stop obsessing over me and ask the janitor in your building to go over your work before you post again.
You have once again beclowned yourself. But I’ll give points for the entertainment value.
What does desperation taste like, and do your clients know you have comprehension problems?
@Suek
I agree. I want them to try this in such a bad way! 🙂
Disturber
14 years ago
BRob, if the votes were there in the House, it would have passed already. And if ultimately it does, there will be candidates in every single House and Senate election campaigning on its repeal. And, they will win because there will be the democratic equivalent of blood in the streets if the Demonocrats manage to push this through by parliamentary maneuver over the will of the majority. And it will be repealed and the Demonocrats will be out of office for a good twenty years or so. By the way, win any cases lately by the hotheadedness you exhibit on this site? I don’t think so.
Nothing short of a nuke over SanFran will dislodge the bitch from her bone. Imagine 800,000 masochistic BRob zombies all voting as a block in a gerrymandered district, and you’ll have the reason I have lost all patience with progressives.
Disturber
14 years ago
Here is Michael Barone’s take on whether Nancy has the votes and he concludes that she does not.
I didn’t hear Dems protesting Rasmussen when his polls showed Nobama leading McCain — in the 2008 Presidential Campaign — except for 2-3 weeks.
Rasmussen has been one of the most accurate pollsters in recent years. . .based on final results vs his predictions
Ultimately, the best poll is at the voting booth . . .and the last three statewide elections haven’t gone in Nobama’s favor — especially after personally campaigning.
BRob
14 years ago
Disturber —
“if the votes were there in the House, it would have passed already.”
Not sure why this is important. It’s like saying “if we were there already, we would be there.” She will not “have the votes” until the vote is actually taken. Hey, she may need to hold the vote open for three hours the way the GOP did on the drug bill. Is she does need to do that to pass, so be it.
“And if ultimately it does, there will be candidates in every single House and Senate election campaigning on its repeal.”
A silly and futile effort it will be. What exactly will you be asking to repeal? The prohibition on pre-existing conditions? The closing of the medicare drug bill donut hole? Good luck running on that in Florida. Or how about repealing the reductions in Medicare spending? So how are you cons going to pay for those increases you would put back on the books? Tax increase? Or cutting something else? Or ar you just going to put that on the Chinese Communist credit cards you cons so love to use? What great system are you conservatives trying to conserve?
“And, they will win because there will be the democratic equivalent of blood in the streets if the Demonocrats manage to push this through by parliamentary maneuver over the will of the majority.”
Uh, yeah. You say “the majority” opposes this. Based on what? A poll of 1,500 people? You think that should override the votes of the millions of Americans who voted for Obama, and override the votes of the majority of voters in the majority of states that put Dems in 59% of the House seats and 59% of the Senate seats. How does that make any sense? What the hell kind of country would this be if a poll of 1,500 random people was the way we made policy decisions? That’s just nuts!
“And it will be repealed and the Demonocrats will be out of office for a good twenty years or so.”
Like I said — first explain to me how you sell this! Back to pre-existing conditions, reinstating the donut hole, put the antitrust exemption back in place? Real winning slogan.
By the way — how exactly how would you go about convincing Obama to sign your supposed repeal proposal . . . and that is as if you could actually (a) win the House and Senate [exceedingly unlikely] and (b) get a big enough margin in the Senate to defeat a filibuster [damn near impossible]?
BRob
14 years ago
Rasmussen is accurate at polling what he polls: the popularity of Obama among Rasmussen’s particular subset, what he calls a “likely voter.” But he screens out people who do not fit his definition, so you cannot get an appropriate idea of what Americans, as a whole, think anymore than you could judge popular opinion by excluding the entire Midwest plus New England. Yeah, you would get an idea of something, but it would deserve a big fat asterisk.
What part of “keep you hands off my healthcare!” do you not understand? Are you just one of those win at all costs types who doesn’t care how it affects anyone, and especially those you deem unworthy of your care? Millions and millions are very happy with their healthcare coverage and do not want the government messing with it at all, including forcing people onto the insurance wagon when they do not desire it? Obviously you have more than one screw loose, but we understand your positions quite well, probably better than you do. Why don’t you just come out and say what you truly feel, which must be something like “Eff the Constitution!” Other posters come here and discuss these topics, including some who are on the opposite side of the issue that we conservatives are. You know what the difference is between them and you? They have respect for our opinions, thoughts and philosophies, while you come on here and spit forth hate and bile every chance you get. Nice life you must have, sitting by yourself and crying about your lot in life, expecting everyone else to carry your burdens for you. My teenagers are better men than you are.
Disturber
14 years ago
Bbob:
You don’t seem to have much of an understanding of how the legislative process works. The speaker can call up a bill at any time. She could call up the Senate version now, tomorrow or could have done it any day in the past. If she thought that she could pass it, that is to get the apparently 216 votes, she would have done it. This is the whole concept of “whipping”. She doesn’t have the votes and from what seems to going on, and despite her skills at strong arming, bribing and whatever else she is promising, it appears that she is losing and not gaining votes.
Insofar as your argument that the election of Obama and majorities in the two legislative branches concludes the opinions of the electorate for four years, you might find it helpful to read a little history. Perhaps the Federalist Papers would be a good start and then you could read the Jefferson-Adams correspondence. You might then have some grasp of the concept of representative government that is embodied in our Constitution and in the bedrock principles on which this nation is based. The election is a slice of public opinion at a particular point in time and does not and never should lock in the electorate to what happen to be the whims of those in power. It is not a carte blanche to ignore the will of the people as it is expressed from day to day. This is a representative government the last time I looked, and the responsibilities of the legislative bodies is to effect the will of the people and not to impose the legislative will on the people. America is not a dictatorship where the gov’t runs roughshod over the will of the people as it exists. Obama may be enamored with the Castro brothers and Hugo Chavez, but he will be stopped in his tracks if he tries that crap here.
Obama ran as a moderate. He promised a post-partisan style. He promised solutions that departed from politics as usual. He promised transparency. When he got into office, he immediately shifted dramatically to the left, abandoned any moderate positions, and delegated the formulation of what he claims to be his most important priority to Ried and Pelosi, two far left ideologues. So what was elected and what was the hidden agenda are two dramatically different things. His misrepresentations are what has caused his dramatic drop in the polls. The people don’t believe him and his increasing anger and petulance are quite disturbing. How else can you explain the profound defeats in NJ, VA and MA? And profound defeats they were. And there are a few more on the horizon.
There is no question that there are problems with the medical system. There is universal desire to correct these. However, these are very complex problems that require contemplative solutions formulated not by 1500 lobbyists, and a bunch of political hacks meeting behind closed doors. Yet that is precisely the solution that is being proffered. From the Raging Cagin on down, there is not one astute commentator who hasn’t opined that if Pelosi succeeds in her maneuver, that the Dems will suffer a profound defeat in the November elections and could possibly lose the House and the Senate by considerable numbers. Whether the change will be enough to override a veto is by no means certain, but what is certain is that if this bill is stuffed down the throats of Americans, who will see an immediate increase in taxes of about 15 to 20 percent and no changes in the scope and availability of either medical care or insurance availability until 2014, Obama will be a one term president and his replacement will be a Republican with Republican majorities in both houses of Congress. As I said, the winning candidates will run on the repeal of Obamacare, which will be so hated by that time that they will win by large margins. It won’t be necessary to convince Obama to sign the repeal. He won’t be around and his dear wife will have to have given up her 43 attendants.
The Democrats are making a huge mistake treating the American people as a bunch of idiots who need to be told what is good for them. That elitist, condescending attitude has backfired every time it has ever held political power and it will fail once again.
Every scoring of the Senate bill, which is the only one that is on the table, concludes that it will result in increased premiums, rationed care, shortages of medical personnel, increased deficits and the cancellation of millions of existing policies. There has never been a cost estimate of a bill of this complexity that was anywhere near accurate and there has never been an instance with the sole exception of the drug benefit where the actual costs did not greatly exceed the estimates. Obama said today that he was going to squeeze $100 billion a year out of fraud and abuse of Medicare. Well, is it not reasonable to ask what in the heck he is waiting for. Just think how credible he would seem if he could truthfully show that in his first year in office he squeezed even $50 billion in fraud and abuse out of that program. So this statement like so many others he has made turns out to be spin and hot air and as I said, the reason that his popularity has declined is that Americans no longer believe him. (Accomplishing such a reduction in fraud and abuse would have required focus and hard work. It cannot be accomplished by yakking away half of each day.)
And one other thing. I will lay you odds that you have never read the Senate bill. And if you would like to reverse the bet, I will take it, for I have read both the Senate and the House bills as they were passed. While they are maddeningly complex and it is nearly impossible to grasp their entirety, I can assure you that there is nothing in either of those bills that addresses either an increased availability of medical services, or that provides any discernible approach to lowering medical costs overall and I defy you to point to a single section that would accomplish either of those ends. Nor is there anything there that addresses the fraud and abuse in Medicare in any direct way. What it does do is increase the Federal employee headcount by several hundred thousand.
So, I suggest that you are advocating a piece of legislation not on the basis of a lawyer’s understanding of its contents, but rather on the spin and puff that Obama and his minions
have been spouting off for the past ten months, much of which is simply untrue. And Obama and his minions would sell their mothers to get what they want and that explains the endless misrepresentations as to what is in these bills.
But you just watch. In all likelihood, nearly every single one of them, Byrd included, will shelve their principles and vote for reconciliation.
If that wasn’t the case then Harry Reid would never contemplate this move which amounts to a declaration of war on the American people.
Scrapiron
14 years ago
Been reading a lot of blogs and news sites tonight. Finally figured out what a left wing, anti-american democrat is. They are not progressives (as they claim) they are regressives who are against everything and for nothing. 50% of them don’t give a hoot about health care, they are already on welfare and Medicaid, 25% are momma’s babies living in the basement with all expenses paid by momma. The remaining 25% are drugged out, drunks and/or in need of some serious mental health care, or those who still think the democrat party (now taken over by Marxist/Communist) is the party their daddy voted for so that’s who they vote for. They’re also too brain dead to read or watch and figure out the truth. They have, as was once said, their head up and locked.
I borrowed this quote from a website called Urgent Agenda….I think it sums up why and what people like BRob and the other Moonbats are all about….
“The left needs two things to survive. It needs mediocrity, and it needs dependence. It nurtures mediocrity in the public schools and the universities. It nurtures dependence through its empire of government programs. A nation that embraces mediocrity and dependence betrays itself, and can only fade away, wondering all the time what might have been.”
There is where Progressives like BRob are trying to take this nation…All one has to do is watch what is going on with this administration to see it…
I think it is up to the rest of us to change this direction before it destroys this nation…
BRob
14 years ago
johngalt —
Interesting . . . I post about the subject up top, but you go off on a tangent about how you and fellow cons are being disrespected. You sound like a rapper or something, all caught up in being dissed. Well . . . SORRY! I did not realize you guys’ feelings were so delicate.
John, I would be happy to get “my hands” off “your” health care. Its just that . . . well, see, john, we have the anti-dumping laws. That means if john is not keeping up with his health insurance premiums then gets injured an a car accident, the local hospital (because it takes Medicare) is not permitted to dump your sorry a$$ in the gutter because you are not insured. Hey, in Reardon-world, you would rot in the gutter until someone decided to be “altruistic” and save your sorry a$$ . . . or maybe not. But in our real world, your inability or refusal to have health insurance, or the fact that you are underinsured, gets “socialized” so that me and my kid have to pay for your uninsured care, through higher premiums, higher taxes and higher hospital costs to cover uncompensated care. It is why the Catholic bishops are, in general, favoring reform . . . because people like my client (an order of nuns that runs a chain of hospitals) are going broke providing coverage for employees, providing uncompensated care, etc. That is the REAL world, johnny-boy, not your utopian Randian fantasy land.
Another thing, john: you are more than welcome to take advantage of the benefits of having a regulated health insurance and health care continuum (and you do). But just remember that there is no free lunch. For every state law requirement that an insurer pay for an examination by Dr. Jellyfinger to help keep prostate cancer from rotting out your entire gut, there is a cost. Just as there is a benefit for having regulations and protocols in place to tell the rad onc how many seeds to plant in your manparts, there is a cost. I you want “government hands off your health care”, you best be moving to a country with unregulated medical care and unregulated health insurance. because the last time I checked, the American people (the REAL American people) went to the pols and, by overwhelming numbers, returned the pro-health care reform, pro-regulation Dems in office and left the Randian GOPers out in the cold clutching their peckers.
The intellectual bankruptcy of the right is probably best captured in the teabagger poster “Keep government hands off my Medicare.” The second best example are the people proclaiming, based on their uneducated interpretations of the Constitution, deciding that we are steaming toward anarchy, blah blah blah. Your proclamation that Obamacare is unconstitutional is one of those. I challenged you to actually offer a rational explanation as to how it is unconstitutional; you have ducked the question, just as another FA con ducked the question when I challenged his statement that a bunch of Southern GOPer attorneys general were just a fixin’ to sue over Obama care. Like I said: show me a case law precedent that helps you, craft a rational argument, then we can talk. But until then, you are pretty much in the same category as this guy:
“Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be”
“Our very way of life is under siege,” said Mortensen, whose understanding of the Constitution derives not from a close reading of the document but from talk-show pundits, books by television personalities, and the limitless expanse of his own colorful imagination. “It’s time for true Americans to stand up and protect the values that make us who we are.”
* * *
Mortensen’s passion for safeguarding the elaborate fantasy world in which his conception of the Constitution resides is greatly respected by his likeminded friends and relatives, many of whom have been known to repeat his unfounded assertions verbatim when angered. Still, some friends and family members remain critical.
bill-tb
14 years ago
Our elected congressional clunkers are beginning to behave like the Oppressives they really are,
They should review the Declaration of Independence and see what happened the last time the “Consent of the Governed” was ignored.
My impassioned response to your nonsensical drivel posted here was just that, impassioned. As for your response, several things are obvious to me. One, you know nothing of Rand’s writings, in particular, Atlas Shrugged. Two, it is readily apparent where you get your talking points from in the very fact that you post links to not only liberal “news” outlets like huffpo, but also to satirical “news” places like the onion. If this is what constitutes your news sources, it’s no wonder you are as screwed in the head as you are. Three, you do, cannot, and/or will not understand the positions taken by the conservatives posting here.
Somehow I doubt that our congress critters even care about the consent of the governed, let alone even know about it. If BRob is any indication, they receive their news and talking points from the left-wing blogosphere and lamestream media and hence, know nothing of the truth. Until Nov., in their minds, the desires of the electorate does not matter. Too numerous are the examples of people calling or writing their representation and receiving at best, a canned response penned by some staffer to be given out to any and all on particular issues, or at worst, be ignored by them completely.
@johngalt referring to BLOB said: “you do, cannot, and/or will not understand the positions taken by the conservatives posting here. “
He makes no attempt to understand or consider our positions. He comes from the Howard Dean side of the Hate America party who believe that Republicans are not just wrong but evil and stupid.
This is what happens from living in the bubble of urban liberalism where everyone thinks just like he does. There is no real challenge to his flawed assumptions about the world.
Yet, when libs but BLOB look around the urban bubble which they have built and which the Democrat Party has controlled for decades all they see is crime, poverty, racism and injustice.
It never dawns on them that after decades of promising a utopia they have failed to deliver and perhaps it might be a good idea to listen to the ideas of someone else.
But now, I have gone seriously off topic and played right into BLOB’s game.
Davey
14 years ago
The old Byrd finally caught a worm.
Patvann
14 years ago
“Medicine is the keystone of the arch of socialism”
— Vladimir Lenin
-And the foundation of that arch is the education system.
Madalyn
14 years ago
Reading RBob is giving me a headache. Reminds me of the days many years ago cleaning out the horses stalls ankle deep in manure……….just saying
Madalyn
BRob
14 years ago
johngalt —
I read Rand in college.. You know it’s just fiction, right? No more earth shattering or world altering than “The Catcher in the Rye.”
I also note that you still have not sussed out that whole “Obamacare is unconstitutional ” argument. Which is why I linked to The Onion — you remind me of “Area Man” with your interesting “jurisprudence” that pretty much ignores the last eighty years of constitutional decision making in favor of an ahistorical take on all the “freedoms” people had back in the 1920s, before America went to hell in a handbasket with socialism and ended up the lone hyperpower on earth. Yep, just sucks what has happened to this country since Lochner.
Mike —
Whatever. CBO numbers just came out. Con chances of defeating this just got a little slimmer. 31 million covered per the CBO with a $118 billion decrease in the deficit over 10- years. Read ’em and weep! I guess we will have to deal with a few more days of Mitch McConnell and Eric Cantor whining like little babies and horror stories about reconciliation.
31 million people, cons . . . 31 million covered against your will. Explain to them why we all will be better off if they are NOT covered.
ThunderGod
14 years ago
BRob,
Where are you going to get the doctors, nurses and facilities to add 46 million insured? {31 mil is a lie, must factor-in illegal aliens, too} The systems is overtaxed in almost all of the Southern, border states, already. Lets not even discuss finding an OB/Gyn in a rural area.
So, how’s this work, anyway? Does SEIU pay you by the word, sentence, paragraph, post or link?
The simple fact that you read Rand, yet fail to understand the parallels between her writing and the happenings of today prove that you know nothing of her. Much of her writing is based on the rise of communism in Russia and her angst at becoming a slave of the state. Of course, since you love the idea of socialism so much, as it seems apparent by your continued blathering here, you would choose to overlook it anyway. No surprise on that front.
As for your assertion that I haven’t sussed out that whole “Obamacare is unconstitutional ” argument, I would tell you that I have the document itself on my side, a 220 some odd year old document that formed our country out of the ashes of the Revolution and servitude to English rule. The document was forged out of the brilliance of men like Jefferson and Madison, and although, as you assert, times were different and the future of the country could not at all clear to them, they did, however provide means of change to the constitution which has been used quite a few times already. Your claim is that a court, composed of men(and women) on deciding cases before it, can change the meaning of the text based on their own beliefs of what it says. While precedent has allowed this to happen, it is not correct according to the constitution itself. Naming powers of the federal government, where there are none, according to the constitution, is not within the perview of the court. As I’ve said, I’ll take Jefferson’s and Madison’s words on what particular clauses mean over yours or anyone else’s anyday. To assume that you know better than they, in what they wrote is egotistical and arrogant beyond belief.
Where are you going to get the doctors, nurses and facilities to add 46 million insured? {31 mil is a lie, must factor-in illegal aliens, too} The systems is overtaxed in almost all of the Southern, border states, already. Lets not even discuss finding an OB/Gyn in a rural area.
Just to add on and expand on your comment just a bit. I read this article today:
What if nearly half of all physicians in America stopped practicing medicine? While a sudden loss of half of the nations physicians seems unlikely, a very dramatic decrease in the physician workforce could become a reality as an unexpected side effect of health reform.
:: snip ::
About 25 percent of respondents were primary care physicians (defined as internal medicine and family medicine in this case), and of those, 46 percent indicated that they would leave medicine — or try to leave medicine — as a result of health reform.
Why would physicians want to leave medicine in the wake of health reform? The survey results, as seen in Market Watch, indicate that many physicians worry that reform could result in a significant decline in the overall quality of medical care nationwide.
So, if ObamaCare passes, we will be adding on 30 to 40 million more people with insurance. People with insurance go to the doctor more often because a third party is bearing the burden of payment.
Then, after adding on these millions, 46% of primary care physicians say they will leave medicine, or at least attempt to.
We’re going to be in a helluva mess.
ThunderGod
14 years ago
@Aye,
The Big Zero will probably make a call to Raul and see if he can “fast-track” some former ACORN workers through Cuba’s med schools.
Well, A.C., it shows that they don’t think ahead ever. One has to wonder not only how many will leave the profession, but how many new doctors will take up the charge when it is deemed financially unviable to go through the years of study, hundreds of thousands of dollars in school loans, all to be paid, in take home terms, not much more than the high school graduate who gets a job in local retail.
Jared
14 years ago
Here is what I think…I have healthcare and have worked for 19 years at the same company. Every year the plan gets worse and I pay more. In the end, if the plan is soooo good, let’s make everyone in Congress that votes for it have the same shit plan…They will never do that, they have the ultimate cady. I work too damn hard to help 43 million not insured get a freaking job! It’s called working for a living. End game, redo the damn bill and have input that is best for the country not OBAMA! It took a Jimmy Carter to get a Ronald Reagan! And Obama is a one termer and we will get the next Reagan! Quit the back door politics, simply put they want to talk about George Bush when he said NO NEW TAXES… What about your President saying no middle class tax increases(lie), no perks put in bills(lies), open discussion on healthcare(lie), increases national debt more than all the former presidents combined in less than 2 years. If I can’t print money and rack up credit cards bills and have to balance my budget at home, the government should too!!!
Is he still capable of coherent thought? The man is older than a few redwood trees I’ve seen in my time!
Whether he is still coherent now, is not the point. He was very coherent then!
Neo — Actually, it’s both. Gotta be coherent NOW to be believable.
I don’t think I’d believe this old coot about anything. And, I have the highest respect for coots.
So.
Do you really think they are going to try this?
http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2010/03/10/house-dems-try-to-pass-obamacare-without-a-vote/
I have my pitchfork at the ready if they do.
Patvann…
Maybe it wouldn’t be so bad. Don’t you think it would be a lot easier to get it thrown out in court if they pulled something like this?
@Patvann:
After this, how could she ever expect us to believe that denture story. They don’t have the votes, desparate times.
Patvann —
Did you note the complete lack of any sourcing on that restate post? Seems to me that someone pulled that out their hindquarters to rile up the increasingly dejected cons!
Ok . . . you found a 2001 commentary about a 1994 bill that was NEVER PRESENTED TO THE SENATE . . . and you use that to prove . . . what? That an entirely different bill 9 years later that has ALREADY PASSED THE SENATE BY A 60-40 VOTE should not be tweaked by a simple majority vote? Why do you cons insist on ignoring the 60-40 vote that passed the damn bill? As if a supermajority vote means “nothing” because GOPers decided to sit that one out! How nutty!
Cons, this is a done deal . . . and I think I smell the desperation among the cons who know it is a done deal. The Dem House will vote on and pass the Senate bill. It will then go to committee for a reconciliation alteration/trimming. If the paliamentarian says the bill has non-reconcilable stuff in it, some will be lopped off (like the abortion stuff) and sent to the Senate and House separately.
I dare the GOPers in the Senate not to vote thumbs up on the Stupak amendment! Double dog dare ya!
If the reconciliation bill fails, the Senate bill (which passed 60-40) will still be in place. So Obama wins no matter what. And the GOPers? Have to suffer the fact that 30 million people will get health insurance over your objection . . . boo hoo! Delicious!
This is what happens when you play checkers (crowing about Scott Brown’s big win) and the other side is playing chess (figuring out how to make the “big win” irrelevant). Because after all that smug bleating about “the people have spoken” . . . as if a special election outcome in one state should derail legislation that is a year old and hammered out after a national election in 50 states . . . it was such silliness. Betcha wish Scott Brown had not tipped his hand so arrogantly, dontcha!
Oh, lookie here!
http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/healthplan.php
Hmm . . . seems like a trend. What happens when you remove Rasmussen’s poll of his quant “left handed White Southern GOPers who voted in the last county election” demographic:
http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/healthplan.php?xml=http://www.pollster.com/flashcharts/content/xml/HealthCare.xml&choices=Oppose,Favor&phone=&ivr=PPP (D)&internet=&mail=&smoothing=more&from_date=&to_date=&min_pct=&max_pct=&grid=&points=1&lines=1&colors=Favor-000000,Oppose-BF0014,Undecided-A69A37,No Opinion-68228B
I think I now know why Massa was a GOPer star yesterday, why Patvann pulled out a nine year old video of an old man’s recollection about a 1994 bill that was never even submitted to a vote, and why Ricky Cantor and John Kyl have been “advising” their Dems “friends” that it would be best for them if the bill did not pass:
methinks the GOPer polling is telling the same story as the second pollster.com chart!
Pfft!
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/reality-and-polling/37290/
@Bob-the-idiot
-Again with the multi-posts….(Telling, isn’t it folks?, as it has become obvious that when he does this, his head is 3 psi from exploding.)
Ummmm. I guess that the same as “likely voters” to idiots like you…talk about “nutty”.
And in light of your powers of observation (like a good lawyer should have) let’s review this:
Hey bright-boy…I didn’t post that video, so please stop obsessing over me and ask the janitor in your building to go over your work before you post again.
You have once again beclowned yourself. But I’ll give points for the entertainment value.
What does desperation taste like, and do your clients know you have comprehension problems?
@Suek
I agree. I want them to try this in such a bad way! 🙂
BRob, if the votes were there in the House, it would have passed already. And if ultimately it does, there will be candidates in every single House and Senate election campaigning on its repeal. And, they will win because there will be the democratic equivalent of blood in the streets if the Demonocrats manage to push this through by parliamentary maneuver over the will of the majority. And it will be repealed and the Demonocrats will be out of office for a good twenty years or so. By the way, win any cases lately by the hotheadedness you exhibit on this site? I don’t think so.
Disturber
Merce
The White House: (202) 456-1414
The Capitol Switchboard: (202) 224-3121
Contact Your Elected Officials: http://www.usa.gov/Contact/ Elected.shtml
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@Plainjane
(Who is NOT “plain” at all, imho)
Nancy Pelosi is my rep….
Nothing short of a nuke over SanFran will dislodge the bitch from her bone. Imagine 800,000 masochistic BRob zombies all voting as a block in a gerrymandered district, and you’ll have the reason I have lost all patience with progressives.
Here is Michael Barone’s take on whether Nancy has the votes and he concludes that she does not.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703701004575113292688090292.html
Disturber
I didn’t hear Dems protesting Rasmussen when his polls showed Nobama leading McCain — in the 2008 Presidential Campaign — except for 2-3 weeks.
Rasmussen has been one of the most accurate pollsters in recent years. . .based on final results vs his predictions
Ultimately, the best poll is at the voting booth . . .and the last three statewide elections haven’t gone in Nobama’s favor — especially after personally campaigning.
Disturber —
“if the votes were there in the House, it would have passed already.”
Not sure why this is important. It’s like saying “if we were there already, we would be there.” She will not “have the votes” until the vote is actually taken. Hey, she may need to hold the vote open for three hours the way the GOP did on the drug bill. Is she does need to do that to pass, so be it.
“And if ultimately it does, there will be candidates in every single House and Senate election campaigning on its repeal.”
A silly and futile effort it will be. What exactly will you be asking to repeal? The prohibition on pre-existing conditions? The closing of the medicare drug bill donut hole? Good luck running on that in Florida. Or how about repealing the reductions in Medicare spending? So how are you cons going to pay for those increases you would put back on the books? Tax increase? Or cutting something else? Or ar you just going to put that on the Chinese Communist credit cards you cons so love to use? What great system are you conservatives trying to conserve?
“And, they will win because there will be the democratic equivalent of blood in the streets if the Demonocrats manage to push this through by parliamentary maneuver over the will of the majority.”
Uh, yeah. You say “the majority” opposes this. Based on what? A poll of 1,500 people? You think that should override the votes of the millions of Americans who voted for Obama, and override the votes of the majority of voters in the majority of states that put Dems in 59% of the House seats and 59% of the Senate seats. How does that make any sense? What the hell kind of country would this be if a poll of 1,500 random people was the way we made policy decisions? That’s just nuts!
“And it will be repealed and the Demonocrats will be out of office for a good twenty years or so.”
Like I said — first explain to me how you sell this! Back to pre-existing conditions, reinstating the donut hole, put the antitrust exemption back in place? Real winning slogan.
By the way — how exactly how would you go about convincing Obama to sign your supposed repeal proposal . . . and that is as if you could actually (a) win the House and Senate [exceedingly unlikely] and (b) get a big enough margin in the Senate to defeat a filibuster [damn near impossible]?
Rasmussen is accurate at polling what he polls: the popularity of Obama among Rasmussen’s particular subset, what he calls a “likely voter.” But he screens out people who do not fit his definition, so you cannot get an appropriate idea of what Americans, as a whole, think anymore than you could judge popular opinion by excluding the entire Midwest plus New England. Yeah, you would get an idea of something, but it would deserve a big fat asterisk.
BRob
What part of “keep you hands off my healthcare!” do you not understand? Are you just one of those win at all costs types who doesn’t care how it affects anyone, and especially those you deem unworthy of your care? Millions and millions are very happy with their healthcare coverage and do not want the government messing with it at all, including forcing people onto the insurance wagon when they do not desire it? Obviously you have more than one screw loose, but we understand your positions quite well, probably better than you do. Why don’t you just come out and say what you truly feel, which must be something like “Eff the Constitution!” Other posters come here and discuss these topics, including some who are on the opposite side of the issue that we conservatives are. You know what the difference is between them and you? They have respect for our opinions, thoughts and philosophies, while you come on here and spit forth hate and bile every chance you get. Nice life you must have, sitting by yourself and crying about your lot in life, expecting everyone else to carry your burdens for you. My teenagers are better men than you are.
Bbob:
You don’t seem to have much of an understanding of how the legislative process works. The speaker can call up a bill at any time. She could call up the Senate version now, tomorrow or could have done it any day in the past. If she thought that she could pass it, that is to get the apparently 216 votes, she would have done it. This is the whole concept of “whipping”. She doesn’t have the votes and from what seems to going on, and despite her skills at strong arming, bribing and whatever else she is promising, it appears that she is losing and not gaining votes.
Insofar as your argument that the election of Obama and majorities in the two legislative branches concludes the opinions of the electorate for four years, you might find it helpful to read a little history. Perhaps the Federalist Papers would be a good start and then you could read the Jefferson-Adams correspondence. You might then have some grasp of the concept of representative government that is embodied in our Constitution and in the bedrock principles on which this nation is based. The election is a slice of public opinion at a particular point in time and does not and never should lock in the electorate to what happen to be the whims of those in power. It is not a carte blanche to ignore the will of the people as it is expressed from day to day. This is a representative government the last time I looked, and the responsibilities of the legislative bodies is to effect the will of the people and not to impose the legislative will on the people. America is not a dictatorship where the gov’t runs roughshod over the will of the people as it exists. Obama may be enamored with the Castro brothers and Hugo Chavez, but he will be stopped in his tracks if he tries that crap here.
Obama ran as a moderate. He promised a post-partisan style. He promised solutions that departed from politics as usual. He promised transparency. When he got into office, he immediately shifted dramatically to the left, abandoned any moderate positions, and delegated the formulation of what he claims to be his most important priority to Ried and Pelosi, two far left ideologues. So what was elected and what was the hidden agenda are two dramatically different things. His misrepresentations are what has caused his dramatic drop in the polls. The people don’t believe him and his increasing anger and petulance are quite disturbing. How else can you explain the profound defeats in NJ, VA and MA? And profound defeats they were. And there are a few more on the horizon.
There is no question that there are problems with the medical system. There is universal desire to correct these. However, these are very complex problems that require contemplative solutions formulated not by 1500 lobbyists, and a bunch of political hacks meeting behind closed doors. Yet that is precisely the solution that is being proffered. From the Raging Cagin on down, there is not one astute commentator who hasn’t opined that if Pelosi succeeds in her maneuver, that the Dems will suffer a profound defeat in the November elections and could possibly lose the House and the Senate by considerable numbers. Whether the change will be enough to override a veto is by no means certain, but what is certain is that if this bill is stuffed down the throats of Americans, who will see an immediate increase in taxes of about 15 to 20 percent and no changes in the scope and availability of either medical care or insurance availability until 2014, Obama will be a one term president and his replacement will be a Republican with Republican majorities in both houses of Congress. As I said, the winning candidates will run on the repeal of Obamacare, which will be so hated by that time that they will win by large margins. It won’t be necessary to convince Obama to sign the repeal. He won’t be around and his dear wife will have to have given up her 43 attendants.
The Democrats are making a huge mistake treating the American people as a bunch of idiots who need to be told what is good for them. That elitist, condescending attitude has backfired every time it has ever held political power and it will fail once again.
Every scoring of the Senate bill, which is the only one that is on the table, concludes that it will result in increased premiums, rationed care, shortages of medical personnel, increased deficits and the cancellation of millions of existing policies. There has never been a cost estimate of a bill of this complexity that was anywhere near accurate and there has never been an instance with the sole exception of the drug benefit where the actual costs did not greatly exceed the estimates. Obama said today that he was going to squeeze $100 billion a year out of fraud and abuse of Medicare. Well, is it not reasonable to ask what in the heck he is waiting for. Just think how credible he would seem if he could truthfully show that in his first year in office he squeezed even $50 billion in fraud and abuse out of that program. So this statement like so many others he has made turns out to be spin and hot air and as I said, the reason that his popularity has declined is that Americans no longer believe him. (Accomplishing such a reduction in fraud and abuse would have required focus and hard work. It cannot be accomplished by yakking away half of each day.)
And one other thing. I will lay you odds that you have never read the Senate bill. And if you would like to reverse the bet, I will take it, for I have read both the Senate and the House bills as they were passed. While they are maddeningly complex and it is nearly impossible to grasp their entirety, I can assure you that there is nothing in either of those bills that addresses either an increased availability of medical services, or that provides any discernible approach to lowering medical costs overall and I defy you to point to a single section that would accomplish either of those ends. Nor is there anything there that addresses the fraud and abuse in Medicare in any direct way. What it does do is increase the Federal employee headcount by several hundred thousand.
So, I suggest that you are advocating a piece of legislation not on the basis of a lawyer’s understanding of its contents, but rather on the spin and puff that Obama and his minions
have been spouting off for the past ten months, much of which is simply untrue. And Obama and his minions would sell their mothers to get what they want and that explains the endless misrepresentations as to what is in these bills.
Disturber
18 Dem Senators are on record stating they oppose reconciliation:
http://republican.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=blogs.view&blog_id=0ce61200-60e3-46d2-aa4e-745421299344
But you just watch. In all likelihood, nearly every single one of them, Byrd included, will shelve their principles and vote for reconciliation.
If that wasn’t the case then Harry Reid would never contemplate this move which amounts to a declaration of war on the American people.
Been reading a lot of blogs and news sites tonight. Finally figured out what a left wing, anti-american democrat is. They are not progressives (as they claim) they are regressives who are against everything and for nothing. 50% of them don’t give a hoot about health care, they are already on welfare and Medicaid, 25% are momma’s babies living in the basement with all expenses paid by momma. The remaining 25% are drugged out, drunks and/or in need of some serious mental health care, or those who still think the democrat party (now taken over by Marxist/Communist) is the party their daddy voted for so that’s who they vote for. They’re also too brain dead to read or watch and figure out the truth. They have, as was once said, their head up and locked.
johngalt:
I borrowed this quote from a website called Urgent Agenda….I think it sums up why and what people like BRob and the other Moonbats are all about….
“The left needs two things to survive. It needs mediocrity, and it needs dependence. It nurtures mediocrity in the public schools and the universities. It nurtures dependence through its empire of government programs. A nation that embraces mediocrity and dependence betrays itself, and can only fade away, wondering all the time what might have been.”
There is where Progressives like BRob are trying to take this nation…All one has to do is watch what is going on with this administration to see it…
I think it is up to the rest of us to change this direction before it destroys this nation…
johngalt —
Interesting . . . I post about the subject up top, but you go off on a tangent about how you and fellow cons are being disrespected. You sound like a rapper or something, all caught up in being dissed. Well . . . SORRY! I did not realize you guys’ feelings were so delicate.
John, I would be happy to get “my hands” off “your” health care. Its just that . . . well, see, john, we have the anti-dumping laws. That means if john is not keeping up with his health insurance premiums then gets injured an a car accident, the local hospital (because it takes Medicare) is not permitted to dump your sorry a$$ in the gutter because you are not insured. Hey, in Reardon-world, you would rot in the gutter until someone decided to be “altruistic” and save your sorry a$$ . . . or maybe not. But in our real world, your inability or refusal to have health insurance, or the fact that you are underinsured, gets “socialized” so that me and my kid have to pay for your uninsured care, through higher premiums, higher taxes and higher hospital costs to cover uncompensated care. It is why the Catholic bishops are, in general, favoring reform . . . because people like my client (an order of nuns that runs a chain of hospitals) are going broke providing coverage for employees, providing uncompensated care, etc. That is the REAL world, johnny-boy, not your utopian Randian fantasy land.
Another thing, john: you are more than welcome to take advantage of the benefits of having a regulated health insurance and health care continuum (and you do). But just remember that there is no free lunch. For every state law requirement that an insurer pay for an examination by Dr. Jellyfinger to help keep prostate cancer from rotting out your entire gut, there is a cost. Just as there is a benefit for having regulations and protocols in place to tell the rad onc how many seeds to plant in your manparts, there is a cost. I you want “government hands off your health care”, you best be moving to a country with unregulated medical care and unregulated health insurance. because the last time I checked, the American people (the REAL American people) went to the pols and, by overwhelming numbers, returned the pro-health care reform, pro-regulation Dems in office and left the Randian GOPers out in the cold clutching their peckers.
The intellectual bankruptcy of the right is probably best captured in the teabagger poster “Keep government hands off my Medicare.” The second best example are the people proclaiming, based on their uneducated interpretations of the Constitution, deciding that we are steaming toward anarchy, blah blah blah. Your proclamation that Obamacare is unconstitutional is one of those. I challenged you to actually offer a rational explanation as to how it is unconstitutional; you have ducked the question, just as another FA con ducked the question when I challenged his statement that a bunch of Southern GOPer attorneys general were just a fixin’ to sue over Obama care. Like I said: show me a case law precedent that helps you, craft a rational argument, then we can talk. But until then, you are pretty much in the same category as this guy:
“Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be”
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/area_man_passionate_defender_of
“Our very way of life is under siege,” said Mortensen, whose understanding of the Constitution derives not from a close reading of the document but from talk-show pundits, books by television personalities, and the limitless expanse of his own colorful imagination. “It’s time for true Americans to stand up and protect the values that make us who we are.”
* * *
Mortensen’s passion for safeguarding the elaborate fantasy world in which his conception of the Constitution resides is greatly respected by his likeminded friends and relatives, many of whom have been known to repeat his unfounded assertions verbatim when angered. Still, some friends and family members remain critical.
Our elected congressional clunkers are beginning to behave like the Oppressives they really are,
They should review the Declaration of Independence and see what happened the last time the “Consent of the Governed” was ignored.
BRob
My impassioned response to your nonsensical drivel posted here was just that, impassioned. As for your response, several things are obvious to me. One, you know nothing of Rand’s writings, in particular, Atlas Shrugged. Two, it is readily apparent where you get your talking points from in the very fact that you post links to not only liberal “news” outlets like huffpo, but also to satirical “news” places like the onion. If this is what constitutes your news sources, it’s no wonder you are as screwed in the head as you are. Three, you do, cannot, and/or will not understand the positions taken by the conservatives posting here.
bill
Somehow I doubt that our congress critters even care about the consent of the governed, let alone even know about it. If BRob is any indication, they receive their news and talking points from the left-wing blogosphere and lamestream media and hence, know nothing of the truth. Until Nov., in their minds, the desires of the electorate does not matter. Too numerous are the examples of people calling or writing their representation and receiving at best, a canned response penned by some staffer to be given out to any and all on particular issues, or at worst, be ignored by them completely.
@johngalt referring to BLOB said: “you do, cannot, and/or will not understand the positions taken by the conservatives posting here. “
He makes no attempt to understand or consider our positions. He comes from the Howard Dean side of the Hate America party who believe that Republicans are not just wrong but evil and stupid.
This is what happens from living in the bubble of urban liberalism where everyone thinks just like he does. There is no real challenge to his flawed assumptions about the world.
Yet, when libs but BLOB look around the urban bubble which they have built and which the Democrat Party has controlled for decades all they see is crime, poverty, racism and injustice.
It never dawns on them that after decades of promising a utopia they have failed to deliver and perhaps it might be a good idea to listen to the ideas of someone else.
But now, I have gone seriously off topic and played right into BLOB’s game.
The old Byrd finally caught a worm.
-And the foundation of that arch is the education system.
Reading RBob is giving me a headache. Reminds me of the days many years ago cleaning out the horses stalls ankle deep in manure……….just saying
Madalyn
johngalt —
I read Rand in college.. You know it’s just fiction, right? No more earth shattering or world altering than “The Catcher in the Rye.”
I also note that you still have not sussed out that whole “Obamacare is unconstitutional ” argument. Which is why I linked to The Onion — you remind me of “Area Man” with your interesting “jurisprudence” that pretty much ignores the last eighty years of constitutional decision making in favor of an ahistorical take on all the “freedoms” people had back in the 1920s, before America went to hell in a handbasket with socialism and ended up the lone hyperpower on earth. Yep, just sucks what has happened to this country since Lochner.
Mike —
Whatever. CBO numbers just came out. Con chances of defeating this just got a little slimmer. 31 million covered per the CBO with a $118 billion decrease in the deficit over 10- years. Read ’em and weep! I guess we will have to deal with a few more days of Mitch McConnell and Eric Cantor whining like little babies and horror stories about reconciliation.
31 million people, cons . . . 31 million covered against your will. Explain to them why we all will be better off if they are NOT covered.
BRob,
Where are you going to get the doctors, nurses and facilities to add 46 million insured? {31 mil is a lie, must factor-in illegal aliens, too} The systems is overtaxed in almost all of the Southern, border states, already. Lets not even discuss finding an OB/Gyn in a rural area.
So, how’s this work, anyway? Does SEIU pay you by the word, sentence, paragraph, post or link?
BRob
The simple fact that you read Rand, yet fail to understand the parallels between her writing and the happenings of today prove that you know nothing of her. Much of her writing is based on the rise of communism in Russia and her angst at becoming a slave of the state. Of course, since you love the idea of socialism so much, as it seems apparent by your continued blathering here, you would choose to overlook it anyway. No surprise on that front.
As for your assertion that I haven’t sussed out that whole “Obamacare is unconstitutional ” argument, I would tell you that I have the document itself on my side, a 220 some odd year old document that formed our country out of the ashes of the Revolution and servitude to English rule. The document was forged out of the brilliance of men like Jefferson and Madison, and although, as you assert, times were different and the future of the country could not at all clear to them, they did, however provide means of change to the constitution which has been used quite a few times already. Your claim is that a court, composed of men(and women) on deciding cases before it, can change the meaning of the text based on their own beliefs of what it says. While precedent has allowed this to happen, it is not correct according to the constitution itself. Naming powers of the federal government, where there are none, according to the constitution, is not within the perview of the court. As I’ve said, I’ll take Jefferson’s and Madison’s words on what particular clauses mean over yours or anyone else’s anyday. To assume that you know better than they, in what they wrote is egotistical and arrogant beyond belief.
@ThunderGod:
Just to add on and expand on your comment just a bit. I read this article today:
So, if ObamaCare passes, we will be adding on 30 to 40 million more people with insurance. People with insurance go to the doctor more often because a third party is bearing the burden of payment.
Then, after adding on these millions, 46% of primary care physicians say they will leave medicine, or at least attempt to.
We’re going to be in a helluva mess.
@Aye,
The Big Zero will probably make a call to Raul and see if he can “fast-track” some former ACORN workers through Cuba’s med schools.
[/shudder]
Well, A.C., it shows that they don’t think ahead ever. One has to wonder not only how many will leave the profession, but how many new doctors will take up the charge when it is deemed financially unviable to go through the years of study, hundreds of thousands of dollars in school loans, all to be paid, in take home terms, not much more than the high school graduate who gets a job in local retail.
Here is what I think…I have healthcare and have worked for 19 years at the same company. Every year the plan gets worse and I pay more. In the end, if the plan is soooo good, let’s make everyone in Congress that votes for it have the same shit plan…They will never do that, they have the ultimate cady. I work too damn hard to help 43 million not insured get a freaking job! It’s called working for a living. End game, redo the damn bill and have input that is best for the country not OBAMA! It took a Jimmy Carter to get a Ronald Reagan! And Obama is a one termer and we will get the next Reagan! Quit the back door politics, simply put they want to talk about George Bush when he said NO NEW TAXES… What about your President saying no middle class tax increases(lie), no perks put in bills(lies), open discussion on healthcare(lie), increases national debt more than all the former presidents combined in less than 2 years. If I can’t print money and rack up credit cards bills and have to balance my budget at home, the government should too!!!