The latest Palin Derangement Syndrome is the fact that Sarah Palin admitted she would cross the border into Canada to partake in some of their health care. Sounds like a sure fire “gotcha” moment right?
Yahoo has it up highlighted: (click to enlarge)
Kos, Think Progress, TPM, Alan Colmes…..all went off the deep end.
Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin — who has gone to great lengths to hype the supposed dangers of a big government takeover of American health care — admitted over the weekend that she used to get her treatment in Canada’s single-payer system.
“We used to hustle over the border for health care we received in Canada,” Palin said in her first Canadian appearance since stepping down as governor of Alaska. “And I think now, isn’t that ironic?”
The irony, one guesses, is that Palin now views Canada’s health care system as revolting: with its government-run administration and ‘death-panel’-like rationing. Clearly, however, she and her family once found it more alluring than, at the very least, the coverage available in rural Alaska. Up to the age of six, Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse.
Of course they all look foolish thanks to some honest reporting from Politico:
CORRECTION: Whitehorse is in Yukon, not Saskatchewan, and Palin, as a young child, lived closer to it than earlier reported.
UPDATE: Here’s some more context: “My first five years of life we spent in Skagway, Alaska, right there by Whitehorse. Believe it or not – this was in the ’60s – we used to hustle on over the border for health care that we would receive in Whitehorse. I remember my brother, he burned his ankle in some little kid accident thing and my parents had to put him on a train and rush him over to Whitehorse and I think, isn’t that kind of ironic now. Zooming over the border, getting health care from Canada.”
ALSO: Socialized medicine apparently only kicked in in Yukon in 1972, post-Palin.
The irony here is that they PAID for their health care.
Wow….go figure.
And all the other moonbats have ignored this info choosing to keep their PDS on display without correction.
Dan Riehl brings brings up the double standard here:
A sentence in an Associated Press item I blogged last night really brought home to me the double standard the AP and others have employed in covering Sarah Palin, versus their long running coverage of Obama going back to even before he was elected.
Palin’s health care history, even when she was a child, is of interest because of her criticism of Obama and other Democrats working on U.S. health care.
Palin is a former governor, now a private citizen with, admittedly, significant political cache. But Obama ran for and now occupies the office of the so-called leader of the Free World. Shouldn’t his college thesis that, for all we know, doesn’t even exist, have been of at least some interest before November 2008? What about the Law Review articles it seems he’s never written, unlike most every review editor in the past?
That and basically all of his college history remains locked away, evidently of no concern at all to the AP. And I have seen a recent item suggesting his record as a lawyer back in Chicago is far from complete in official records these days, though I can’t find a current link.
As I recall, Obama traveled to Pakistan as a young man in 1981. Back during the campaign, there never was any serious interest in why, or what he did during the trip. But that Sarah Palin! My God, she crossed the border for a check up a time, or two – we’d better dig into her child health care records, it’s now fair game, after all, because, well, who knows what we might turn up??
And Dan has more on the particulars of Sarah’s Canadian health care experience….stuff you just won’t read at Kos and friends.
They embarrassed themselves time and again with their BDS….now, they just look even more foolish.
UPDATE
From The Jawa Report:
Update: Jawa reader and Canadian citizen Garduneh Mehr points out..
Healthcare is not free in Canada; we pay for it with our taxes. And Sarah Palin’s family, not being citizens, would have had to pay full fee.
Of course this whole issue stems from Newfoundland premier opting for his heart surgery in the US.
Updated for clarity:
1972
Yukon creates medical insurance plans with federal cost sharing, April 1.
See author page
social conservatives have always fought against change whether slavery, or giving women the right to vote.
They went by the name Democrat back in the day…
in the USa it is estimated that 25000 die each year from lack of healthcare,
Please provide the summary of death indicating lack of insurance was the cause of death. I really want to see the surveillance data that backs ups this questionable statement.
Actually, about 36,000 people die every year from seasonal flu:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/
Note the link to the statistics supporting my statement.
103 comments later….
Wow! I have to say I’m impressed with the passion of this debate. Although, cooler heads have produced evidence based ideas that are interesting and thought provoking. This spirited discussion has captured various tones of this debate.
We have been treated to the emotional argument with an associated tragic story of healthcare insurance with the hopes of gaining unquestionable moral authority over this debate. How many times have the FA readers encountered a similar story at a healthcare town hall debate?
Several individuals have put forth some great options the nation could pursue, others have simply cut and pasted whitehouse.gov talking points. The constitutional aspect of healthcare is fascinating and I’m glad we have that point of view being discussed. A free market approach to lowering costs associated with healthcare should, IMHO, be the principle talking point for healthcare reform, but that is not what obamacare is built on.
If only our elected officials would listen to the people, we might just get this thing right.
I said in an earlier post that I would try to get back at some point this evening to post a bullet point list of what I see as workable ideas to improve not only the health care industry but also the health care insurance market.
This list is not necessarily inclusive, it’s just the things that I can think of at this moment.
There have been dozens, if not hundreds, of ideas expressed here at FA over the course of the last 15(?) months…seems like 50 years…that we’ve been discussing this issue.
Anyway, here’s my bullet point (some will be large) list:
1) Loosen the restrictions, and lower or remove the hurdles that are in place for the creation and expansion of more medical schools and the enrollment of more medical students.
On a per capita basis, we barely have more doctors than we had in 1900. With a growing population, as well as an aging population, that is a problem which must be addressed.
By increasing the number of people who are allowed to become doctors, or medical practitioners of other types, we can, in effect, flood the market with a supply of medical talent. That increased supply will bolster competition between doctors thus driving down prices.
2) Remove all cross border competition restrictions currently imposed on insurance companies. By allowing a company in GA to sell in NY or SD or KS or any other state in the union, we allow that company to increase its’ customer base, thus spreading the risk factor over a larger pool. By allowing greater levels of competition, prices for coverage will go down.
3) Transfer all employer owned health plans to employee ownership. This will force individuals to comparison shop for their plan.
4) Expand tax free FSA and HSA availability to everyone. This change will be dramatic because the patient, the consumer, is always more careful when they are paying for things directly rather than through a third party. Perhaps an incentive to spend wisely could be offered as well.
Such an incentive could be that a certain percentage of the account balance at the end of the calendar year could be given tax free to the account holder. The remainder of the account could be held over for the next year.
5) Enable private collectives to purchase group insurance plans ie, a group of individual similar businesses (think family owned jewelry stores or bakeries or real estate or construction companies) could band together to form a larger purchasing pool thus qualifying for discounted rates.
6) Eliminate coverage mandates at the state level. It doesn’t make sense to force a 60 year old couple to carry maternity coverage. It also doesn’t make sense to force addiction therapy coverage on a non-drinker or a person who doesn’t take drugs.
7) Allow hospitals to turn away people from the ER if the person does not have a life-threatening condition. People using the ER for a case of the sniffles is a prime example. (Controversial I know, but big problems sometimes require tough decisions.)
#8 Encourage, and incentivize, the creation and expansion of non-emergency health care clinics that would be open seven days a week, perhaps 24 hours a day depending on market demand, offering care to the non-emergency patients at non ER rates.
(A non-emergency example would be the person [me] who has a daughter that developed an ear infection late on a Friday night/early Saturday morning when the regular doc’s office was closed up tight. That person [me] had no choice but take her to the ER because there were no other alternatives available to us. The doc’s office would not reopen until Monday…the nearest non-emergency clinic was nearly two hours away.)
9) Grant more practicing privileges to nurse assistants, LPN, and other medical professionals. Those personnel can diagnose flu, set a broken bone, do a physical, prescribe antibiotics, etc. for an illness just as well as a full fledged doctor…and for less money.
10) Require schooling which is reflective of the complexity of the field of specialty. A brain surgeon, for example, necessarily requires more education than a general practitioner. A person who sets broken bones doesn’t need the same amount of education that a cardiologist would need.
11) Grant full tax deductibility of all medical expenses, including preventive care.
12) Change the legal structure to establish “loser pays”. This one change alone would result in fewer suits being filed. Lower malpractice rates and thus lower medical charges would be a direct result.
13) Allow/encourage physicians to offer a “cash price” for patients who pay at the time of their visit thus removing the middle man (the insurance company). By doing something similar to SimpleCare, doctors are able to greatly reduce their overhead costs and are then able to pass along a much less expensive product without sacrificing quality.
14) Instruct the FDA to move more drugs to an OTC status.
15) Establish plan portability so that when a person leaves their job at Company A and moves to Company L instead they carry their coverage with them. (If health plans are owned by the employee instead of the employer as I proposed in #3 above then portability would be a non-issue.)
“Please provide the summary of death indicating lack of insurance was the cause of death. I really want to see the surveillance data that backs ups this questionable statement.”
Skye. You will never see that as a cause of death – you are being asinine.
Using your logic:
Smoking is not the cause of death. Its the cancer that is the cause of death.
The car accident accident is not the cause the death. Its the head/body trauma and internal bleeding that is the cause of death.
The years of drinking alcohol is not the cause of death. The cause of death may be liver failure.
If you do not get these, you are really choosing to be obtuse. And if you are not choosing to be, then you simply ARE.
I say that because you apparently can not/will not understand the consequences of things or causative actions/things. If you can not grasp those concepts – then the conversation is at an end.
Not taking your meds can kill you. BUT not getting those meds because you can’t afford it because you were denied is a contributing factor. But you won’t get that I am sure.
And … if you are just yanking my chain – well, that just labels you as something much worse.
*SIGH*
I am going to go pound my head into a brick wall. I think the wall will get it first before she does.
Reasoning and logic is not your forte is it? No frigging wonder IT is male dominated.
“because you were denied is a contributing factor.”
And to be 100% crystal clear
being denied INSURANCE …
which can prevent people from going to the doctor …
because they can’t afford to without insurance.
my 7 year old gets this!
BRob
I’ve met some really obtuse people in my life, but you are tops. The founders had more wisdom than all of us that post here have put together. They have provided means of changing the constitution, if it warrants it, and not by an overreaching federal government either. You talk of precedents, but there are numerous examples of precendent that if followed, would make our conversation here probably non-existent, or in a completely different context, and not for the better mind you. Your last statement proves that you either know nothing about the constitution or you choose to disregard it. As I told Cary, I’ll take the words of the founders regarding clauses in the constitution over yours or your kind anyday. The difference is, Cary and I have a decent, somewhat friendly discussion even while disagreeing, while you choose to belligerent arguing as your means of communication.
It is simply NOT possible for a US citizen to receive free medical care from the Canadian Universal Health Care system. I have been in Canada and have had to see a doctor. guess what? they ask for for ID , a Canadian Health card and make you fill out a basic form, just like doctors in the US . There are No signs saying “Free Healthcare for all americans . NO questions asked” . Bottom line is an American can get health care in Canada, but you have to pay. It is only free to Canadian citizen who have resided in the country for at least three months. A good article on the point is from the National Post ” Sarah Palin knows her Canadian health care history. Do we?
“
@Skye:
In spite of some issues I have within your portrayal of this discussion (I won’t point them out by rehashing what is all here), I agree that this has been a great discussion. Both sides have produced cogent arguments, and this is possibly among the best discussions I’ve had here at Flopping Aces. So, thank you and everyone else.
@Aye Chihuahua: You do have some great ideas here, and some are in the current bill. I trust you have shared these with your Congressperson and the White House. And you won’t get an argument from me on #7, although I would say that whether the ear infection is an emergency or not should depend on the age of your child. I had them as a small child, and they were quite painful. No child who hasn’t yet developed a vocabulary to describe what they’re feeling should be turned away at any time, as a seemingly minor problem could be indicative of something larger.
Four or five years ago, I went to the ER and discovered a couple other things that can be reduced within the system. I was at work when I felt some numbness in my left arm and hand. My boss excused me from work to go to the ER, so as not to take any chances. All I wanted was for someone to check my heart and see if something was up. I didn’t need or expect a bed, a meal, three EKGs, a CAT scan, and 12 hours of waiting. Just tell me I’m not gonna die, and I’ll take the time to figure out what’s up with a non Emergency doctor. (turned out to be a pinched nerve) I also noticed some homeless folk seeking a place to spend the night. It’s a separate problem, but connected. Most of the shelters here have curfews, forcing those down and out to choose between a place to lie their heads and employment with regular evening hours. It’s difficult, if not impossible to get on your feet without both, so some just run to the hospital and complain about something, and get a bed for the night.
In the end, those of us who don’t have to worry about these things in our own lives should be very thankful. I hope we’ll all agree on that.
Cary,
If you are not suffering from a neurological deficit, how did you miss a simple analogy?
The alternative is that you knew what the point was but had to pretend it was something else, i.e. the relative value to me of my house to my health.
That was snark designed to distract from the point you could not afford to address; that doing away with pre-existing conditions exclusions or denials is unsustainable.
Since you deliberately attempted to avoid the point, your good faith can be questioned in other areas as well.
@Richard Aubrey:
Not only do I quite fully understand the mechanics of writing and rhetoric, as I’ve assured you, I also fully comprehend the business paradigm you refer to, and absolutely get the point you’re trying to make. However, I’m rejecting your argument for the reasons I’ve explained (the value of and ability to replace each in your analogy), as well as what’s been discussed here. I’m moving on now. I hope we’ll find something else to agree on in a future discussion.
You will never see that as a cause of death – you are being asinine.
I’m being reasonable and using professional judgement to help you understand the fallacy of your statements.
Using your logic: Smoking is not the cause of death. Its the cancer that is the cause of death.
Cancer has many causes, simply making a direct connection between smoking to a cancer diagnosis is reckless. A patient may smoked during their lifetime but died due to complications of osteosarcoma. I cannot say the patient has a history of smoking, therefore the cause of his/her cancer – no reputable medical professional will say that.
The car accident accident is not the cause the death. Its the head/body trauma and internal bleeding that is the cause of death.
A car accident is a measurable cause and effect – something you cannot apply to your perception of healthcare coverage (note this discussion is about your perception of healthcare coverage and its link to overall health)
The years of drinking alcohol is not the cause of death. The cause of death may be liver failure.
A patient may have been a lifelong history of alcoholism, but developed hepatocellular carcinoma which caused liver failure and eventually death. You cannot support any blanket statment that directly connects the lack of healthcare to the deaths of thousands of Americans. Making oversimplified examples to support your position is weak, at best.
I say that because you apparently can not/will not understand the consequences of things or causative actions/things. If you can not grasp those concepts – then the conversation is at an end.
The end of the conversations….How many times have I heard that before? How many times are you going to fail to grasp the meaning of your own statements?
Not taking your meds can kill you. BUT not getting those meds because you can’t afford it because you were denied is a contributing factor.
Affordability and access is available to every citizen. Losing all emotional reasoning and giving up after one insurance rejection, is typical of who I help.
Your allowing your perception of healthcare to color this entire debate. I’m trying to help you get over yourself regarding this issue. You cannot make a direct correlation between not getting meds because of an insurance denial and cause of death or a contributing factor.
There are thousands of programs available to help patients get the care and medications they need. Most are unaware of the options (state and national, and Pharmecutical ) available to them – and that is a problem that needs to be addressed to improve healthcare delivery and prevent hysterical outbursts from those less educated on the subject.
But you won’t get that I am sure. And … if you are just yanking my chain – well, that just labels you as something much worse.
Can you stow the over the top dramatic diva? You are sounding more and more like a two year old in the midst of a tantrum.
*SIGH* I am going to go pound my head into a brick wall. I think the wall will get it first before she does. Reasoning and logic is not your forte is it? No frigging wonder IT is male dominated.
I take that back, you are a two year old emotionally. Not surprising you work in IT. Please resume pounding your head, it is your forte.
which can prevent people from going to the doctor because they can’t afford to without insurance. my 7 year old gets this!
Stop using your 7 year old as a prop for your flawed argument. I don’t believe he would like being portrayed as victim in your healthcare delusion.
@Cary:
I’m not sure which of the items on the list you are referring to but can you point me in the direction of some sources which support your conclusion?
Pretty much all of the items on my list are free market ideas…things which have NOT been embraced by those who have written the pieces of legislation currently on the table so I find it really difficult to believe that any of the things I listed are included in the bills.
I have, indeed, shared my ideas with my Congressman…unfortunately, he’s a Dim and is not terribly open to any free market solutions. He’s doing hard labor under the delusion that the gov’t can “fix” it even though each and every time gov’t has engaged in anything, their performance has been a dismal failure.
From the Postal Service, to the IRS, to Fannie and Freddie, to MediCare and Social Security, the gov’t has never run anything successfully. Hell, these are the same people who couldn’t even run the Senate Snack Bar successfully.
Now we’re supposed to trust them with 1/6 of the American economy?
You’re right on the ear infection stuff. As the parent of three, the oldest is 18, we’ve been through our share of ear aches, and now with boyfriends and girlfriends, heart aches.
I didn’t mean to imply that we didn’t take her ear issue seriously I was simply using that as an example of a time when we had no choice but use an ER because that was all that was readily available knowing all along that what she had did not fit the traditional definition of emergency.
@Aye Chihuahua:
I’m sure that #2, #15, and I’m not entirely sure, but perhaps #5 have at least been on the table. I regret that I’m short on time to look these up today, but I do concede that at least most of these have not been brought up. I wonder if you have to be a constituent of a particular lawmaker in order to share your ideas. Perhaps there’s a politician you trust who may take up your ideas in another state?
I will also say that in #9 – it should be an RN, not an LPN – RNs require 4 years of education, while one can become an LPN in just one. With that adjustment, I’ll agree wholeheartedly, from personal experience. My brother’s wife is an RN, and when my dad was dying, she was an invaluable resource. She told us more than any of the doctors did, and helped prepare and communicate in ways we wouldn’t have if she weren’t around. I see no reason not to give someone like her more authority.
skye:”You cannot support any blanket statement[sic] that directly connects the lack of healthcare to the deaths of thousands of Americans. Making oversimplified examples to support your position is weak, at best.”
I will just have to agree to disagree. You and I will never see it the same way.
“Losing all emotional reasoning and giving up after one insurance rejection, is typical of who I help.”
Nice to ASS – U – ME. But you are wrong. I made MANY calls to MANY insurance companies.
Same answer. Nice assumption on your part though.
“There are thousands of programs available to help patients get the care and medications ”
List them! Give Links! You are making the claim – back it up. I know I can get my diabetic medicine – already checked into that. I have also checked into the others and hit brick walls from so called experts like yourself who work in the field.
Matter of fact, I have a fantastic idea skye. E-mail me your work number and we will work this out professionally. This is your golden opportunity to shine and put your money where your mouth is. I am not kidding and I am dead serious.
I really want to see all of these programs that will do what you claim. See, if we do it professionally, then we can discuss all of the ailments in my family with HIPAA rules and such since that is your claim.
Heck, I’ll even let YOU make the calls to reputable insurance companies and get the answers.
And once they provide it in writing, we’ll go from there.
If you do this, and are correct, I will gladly come back and retract everything I have said about you negatively.
However, if I am correct, I want you to come back and do the same.
I leave the ball in your court.
I know I can get my diabetic medicine – already checked into that.
Even without insurance? How can that have happened? You want information – go google it – I’m not spoon feeding you the information.
You apparently need help that I cannot give you. Your insults and hysterical rantings are symptomatic a larger problem than healthcare coverage. If anything, I hope you see that.
Please seek professional help. I am serious.
I am new to this blog, and am very impressed with it’s content and with the caliber of the people who post & comment. However I have to say that I am disturbed by the shift to personal attacks that I am seeing here. It seems that if someone needs to resort to bashing someone’s character rather than simply disagree on issues then the argument is lost.
I agree, PG, personal attacks have no place on this thread.
Thanks Skye, of course I wasn’t talking about you!
Thank you, PG. Welcome to Flopping Aces – the blog where the writers and commentators are truly exemplary!
Skye:”Even without insurance?”
Why YES. That was what you claimed up there and you are now acting all surprised and shocked!??
You should be EXCITED that I found something that backs YOUR CLAIMS. Even that ONE example!
“How can that have happened?”
Why I talked to a REAL nurse who pointed me to the right people! WOW!
I didn’t talk to someone on the internet WHO CLAIMS to work in the industry and CLAIMS to know a lot of things but can’t/won’t prove any of what they claim to know.
If you posted what you claimed that you know, you wouldn’t just be helping ME. You would/could be helping the many you claim don’t have that information and the very ones you treat like idiots just because you supposedly have knowledge they do not.
“You want information – go google it – I’m not spoon feeding you the information.”
That is exactly the response I expected. You are a HYPOCRITE. You sit and expect all those arguing with you to PROVE THEIR SIDE. And if they do what you did, you dismiss them, call them liars, drama queens and what not. Funny how that works.
If people are THAT poor then how are they getting on the internet??
This is one of the reasons I keep calling you “princess” – you have lived a pretty decent life without wanting, without being poor and it shows in your attitude. While you can intellectually grasp the concept (I think), you just don’t get the reality. Kind of like Obama who can’t really relate to the average black person.
Well missy, the internet is a wonderful place where people, like yourself, who can claim anything and then when called on the carpet will respond as you did.
“You apparently need help that I cannot give you.”
I could say the same of you 😉
I am not even sure at this point if life experience can/will help in your issue. I think you will only get worse as you age – Retracting into your own world with a dozen cats around you and thinking everyone is out to get you. I could be wrong. Time will tell.
“Your insults and hysterical rantings are symptomatic a larger problem than healthcare coverage.”
And you calling me a liar and being the pain in the butt you have by doing nothing more than parroting phrases shows a whole lot more about you and your personality disorders.
But I guess it was A.O.K to call me a liar without one shred of proof on your side. I think they call that defamation.
You too insult and act as if you do not.
“If anything, I hope you see that.”
I do. Do you see your own flaws? I somehow doubt it.
“Please seek professional help. I am serious.”
Another dig because why? You can’t back up your claim. You are all pissy because you are called on it and I offered you a legitimate way to make your case and you did exactly what I expected a nice neat little phrase parroting person to do …
You declined. Not only did you decline, you struck out like an injured animal.
When faced with the reality of their situation, delusional people usually strike out at those who force them to face reality.
Seek psychological counseling Skye. I am serious too. Just as serious as you are.
The offer still stands. You have every chance to prove yourself and live up to the standards you place on those with which you debate. Until you take that, you are A HYPOCRITE.
NOT ONLY are you a hypocrite, but until you prove some shred sof what you claim, you are spreading lies and myths.
BACK UP YOUR CLAIM.
@Skye: I said it previously but I am not coming back to this thread. Not even to see your response.
You can get my e-mail address should you seriously want to take up my offer. But otherwise don’t bother mailing me to say how wrong you think I am. ONLY if you want to take up my offer.
I wish you well.
We just will not agree on this issue. And that is why I am not revisiting this thread.
It is just going to continue to ad hominem attacks.
I said it previously but I am not coming back to this thread. Not even to see your response.
Bullhockey. You can’t stop and you will prove me right.
Your conflating your personal tragedy into this discussion. There is nothing I can do to help you with that. I will not contact you privately, and respectfully ask you to do the same.
Please seek help: http://angermanagementcls.com/index.html