Fort Hood shooter still alive

One of his colleagues knew how hateful he was, and yet did nothing?
I saw where he was being investigated by the feds over some pro jihadist posts six months ago, but had yet to confirm he made the posts? WTH!!!!?? They couldn’t get an answer in less time than that?

Here’s hoping that the officer gets the medal of freedom!

He got 4 years of medical school and 2 years residency without paying a dime out of his pocket all the while drawing his pay. As one commentator on Fox reported, he paid back the military by killing 12+ people.

He never was deployed but had lawyers trying to get him out of being sent Over There. Probably trying to get out of a dishonorable discharge and/or having to repay for his education. He was “disturbed” hearing the reports of the men coming back from combat…Boo Friggin’ Hoo. He didn’t want to aid and abet killing Muslims…OMB, what a shock.

No Muslims in the US Military. Period.

Six months ago Hasan came to the attention of the FBI because of Internet postings that discussed suicide bombings.

After lauding a Muslim U.S. Army soldier who killed comrades in Kuwait in 2003, Hasan wrote in an online posting, “If one suicide bomber can kill 100 enemy soldiers … that would be considered a strategic victory.”

Kozane: You should have seen the celebration that the Muslims had in Athens Greece on 9/11. Some Jewlers in downttown Ermou were giving out champagne. Disgusting! They have no shame. I hope we are not going to have copy cats in the days to follow. Homeland security better keep America safe from attacks like this one.

Budvar-akbar: the ISRAELI Army has no enemy within! Others in the region are used to having traitors among themselves, it is the modum operandum of cowards and snakes who have no respect for life.

@AnnMonterey:
@budvarakbar:

Both of you – knock off the anti-Muslim crap. Do either of you serve in the military? No? Then you’ve probably never served alongside Muslims. Well I have and they don’t deserve your slurs because they are busting their butts to protect America.

This guy at FT Hood was a nut. For fuck’s sake, stop confusing fanatics and lunatics with faith.

Back to you budvarakbar – how many Christian majors are there in the IDF?

That’s right, tfhr. I forgot about that.

I didn’t know of any Muslims in the military, but that was over forty ears ago. I understand that there are many that are fighting for our country and I am bewildered like many of you.

After 9/11, I was visiting family on 11/11/01 in Calgary and I noticed a large group of Muslims gathered on a vacant lot across the road. While wondering whether I should ask for a weapon, a relative noticed my nervousness and told me to relax. They alerted the public by the newspaper that they planned to gather on vacant lots to sing O Canada on Armistice Day, all over town, in appreciation of their new home in Canada. On this bitter cold day, I was a little choked up as these people did a fair job of singing a difficult song.

Up to that point, I believed and thought the worst of the Muslim. Yet they are now serving our country with distinction.

A couple of thoughts on this matter, that apply to me as well.

He that knows little, often repeats it. proverb

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. Thomas Jefferson

thfr = tfhr — whatever

@budvarakbar:

@chris:

There isn’t a PC bone in my body, budvarakbar, just a couple of decades of serving in the Army that taught me that people come from all over the world to live in America for all the promise it holds. The Army exists to protect those people and our Constitution. There is something in the Constitution about freedom of religion, no?

I know a Muslim USAF major and he is not a fanatic or a lunatic. His family came from India to pursue a better life and to practice their religion without fear of persecution. The shootings at FT Hood are the responsibility of one man, it would seem, not his religion. The act of one lunatic on FT Hood does not justify condemnation of an entire religion. You don’t have to drive far, in Texas terms, to get to Waco from FT Hood but does any rational person believe that David Koresh’s brand of Christianity was a true representation of the faith?

In 1996 a soldier shot 19 other soldiers at a PT formation on FT Bragg. He was not a Muslim.
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/149260/

In 2005 a soldier at FT Campbell fired on fellow soldiers and is now in prison. He wishes he was in Guantanamo but he’s not Muslim.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-144755630/debary-soldier-gets-25.html

In 1993 a DA Civilian shot himself and four co-workers on FT Knox. He was not a Muslim. I mention that shooting also because I had left the post only a few days prior and had passed through that office while clearing.
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-10-19/news/mn-47457_1_knox-clerk

That was one of those events that taught me a long time ago that there is no safe place when someone is both armed and insane. If blaming this on a religion makes you feel safer I think you’ll be disappointed. Each of the lunatics I listed above had their particular brand of motivation that led them to pull the trigger. Does knowing that they were not Muslims make it different to you? Why?

Here’s my take on it:

Hasan did not want to be deployed. He had retained an attorney, but I think as the deployment date drew closer, the handwriting was on the wall and he was going to be deployed, like it or not.

No way would he kill a fellow Muslim. Jihad was a convenient out for him. Hubby said ‘why would he kill his own’, meaning fellow soldiers? I had to tell him that ‘his own’ were the muslims, not the soldiers serving along side him.

@chris:

Do we know that this guy carried out the act in the name of Allah? I’ve not heard that yet but to answer your question about how many acts are enough for me, I’ve always said that a state of war has existed since 1979 when Iranians stormed our embassy.

I was on my way to the Pentagon on 9-11. I’ve done a tour in Iraq and I’ve spent a fair amount of my time outside of the country working anti-terrorism and force protection issues for PACOM. I think I know the dangers. What’s more, I saw a lot of intel reports that would make your skin crawl if you had any idea how big this problem has become over the years.

I agree that Waco was avoidable but that doesn’t change my mind about Koresh. In fact, knowing that he was armed and a lunatic makes your point about grabbing him away from the compound just that much more appropriate.

I’m not going to sit here and be lectured about how evil one religion is compared to another. I’ll tell you that I think you’re wrong and such a pronouncement on your part leaves you with no practical approach to combat the threat from terrorist organizations and their sponsors. The people that act against America, it’s allies, and it’s interests are my focus. Unless your prescription is to destroy an entire religion, I suggest you stick to killing the radicals that take up arms against us and working to reduce their means to sustain the fight. Bombing mosques simply because they are mosques doesn’t help our cause.

By the way, why didn’t you answer my question? Each of the lunatics I listed above had their particular brand of motivation that led them to pull the trigger. Does knowing that they were not Muslims make it different to you? Why?

Well waterboard his @$$ for info, and when hes useless pop a shot in the ol’ computer and put his lights out for treason.

Last i checked treason was still a death sentence.

Prolly end up with a full pardon by the one.

@madeleine7

Well, i dont think “the other traitor” is a “traitor” as much as i think he is probably the dumbest self righteous/absorbed S.O.B ever to grace the White house’s halls.

@tfhr: I will agree on one of your premises: all Jihadists are nut cases. This was merely one. And don’t lecture me about what it is to be an American. If they are so bloody full of patriotism, I’d like to see some activities from the Muslim community at large as proof that they are Americans first. You will not see that because they are Muslims first. The “peaceful” Muslims are complicit if they don’t take active steps to out the radicals; if they don’t publicly separate them from the bigger community; if they are guilty by omission.

Take your PC crap and stuff it. I’m in no mood for jerks like you.

I think those around him were brow-beat by political correctness. And it should be a lesson learned for any more out there, like him.

I am all for ethnic, religious, and nationality profiling. And I see nothing racist or prejudiced in that at all. Above all else, is behavioral profiling; and when all these things converge to give off warning alarm bells, it is the height of idiocy to ignore the sign posts and do nothing, so as not to offend civil rights groups and be accused of bigotry.

A caller to the Michael Medved Show yesterday mentioned how he served alongside a Navy man who talked of how the only reason he was serving was because his imam told him to; that he didn’t want to be there in the military, but did so because he was told. I believe the caller also said the guy had anti-U.S. foreign policy views. Medved asked the caller if he had reported anything about the guy. The caller said he did, but since there’s no crime, there was nothing to be done.

Mata, have a safe trip. Perhaps you are going to DC to let our Representatives on Capitol Hill know how we feel about the healthcare bill!

@AnnMonterey:

“If they are so bloody full of patriotism….”

Think about that for a moment.

Now, I’ve told you that I’ve served alongside Muslims in my time in the United States Army. These particular people put their lives on the line for you, me, our families, and their own families. What more do you want?

What else can a person do to convince you that that they’ve invested all they have to give in the defense of our country?

Remember that we are talking about two entirely different groups of people here: The people you know and the people you don’t know. If you are suspicious of someone you don’t know, I’d give you credit for being wary. If you are convinced that they are malevolent for being something you don’t know, then I say you’ve stepped off on a poorly formed assumption that ignores the fact that Americans of every stripe make this country work and within that vast collection of individuals there are Muslim Americans that are serving our country honorably.

During WWII Japanese Americans bore the brunt of much hatred following Pearl Harbor. I can understand that and I also do not believe FDR was entirely wrong for taking the step to incarcerate so many of them. Had the means been available to be more selective in those days, I suppose they would have done so but there was a war to be fought and political sensitivities don’t match up with security threats in my book.

“…jerks like [me].” Well, AnnMonterey, I’ve been called much worse. I’ve even had people try to tell me not to deploy because they thought that the war was wrong. When you raise your hand and take the oath, you don’t get to make that decision anymore. Regardless of that, I went to Iraq because I wanted to help. Not bragging but I did help and by that I mean I helped kill al Qaeda terrorists in al Anbar. If you find my defense of those Americans serving in our military that worship differently that you to be too much for you to stomach, then satisfy yourself with whatever insults you think will help. I really don’t care. I prefer to target those that would do us harm and not waste time, effort, and ammunition on those that don’t and find no value in maligning those that do serve honorably.

@Hankster58:

You’re right about political correctness. It is dangerous and damaging no matter where you find it. I once heard political correctness described as “New Age Stalinism” and I think those three words sum it up better than any paragraph I could write.

As for “armed to the teeth”, I can tell you that carrying a weapon at all times is a terrific burden. What do I mean by that? Soldiers are accountable for any weapon and any ammunition issued with it. Let one soldier on FT Hood lose accountability for a weapon and the CG could very well lock down the post until the weapon is recovered. FT Hood is massive and such a recovery effort would obstruct operations and paralyze the post. If you’re going to issue weapons, then you should be issuing body armor too. Where does it stop? I’ve lived in a war zone and you can get used to wearing your kevlar and body armor for great lengths of time and you can get used to hauling a weapon and basic load around but you’re primary focus is the job, so 24-7, that really is just a part of what you do. There is no family there. You won’t have to pile into your POV each morning to make it to a PT formation with full battle rattle on or grab your M4 to talk a walk down to the latrine. Coming home to a CONUS assignment gives a soldier a chance to recover from months and months of living right on or near the edge. That this heinous act occurred on our soil just makes it all the worse.

Taking this specific act into consideration, what might have happened if several dozen soldiers had tried to engage their attacker at once in a crowded room? It also took several hours for the authorities to determine if there was more than one shooter or not. Considering how bad the carnage was with just one person spraying rounds, how much worse might it have been if friendly fire casualties had been added as one soldier or group of soldiers mistook one another for the attacker(s)? Who would the arriving police engage first?

This event has evoked strong emotions as people register their disgust and anger. The Army does not benefit from decisions made in that vein. As much as I dislike Barack Obama, the decision to secure weapons in unit arms rooms has been the practice that has worked for the Army for decades and is not the President’s call, nor should it be.

@MataHarley:

I’ll focus on this line from your comment:

“From what we can tell in this early stage, Maj. Hasan was of the same mind as an organized jihad mentality.”

It is still early and too soon to draw conclusions but Hasan’s actions in and of themselves did not require organization. His anger and hatred were probably all the inspiration he required but at the same time, I would not be surprised if he sought justification in religion and politics.

We saw the murderer at VA Tech kill more than thirty students because he felt that he had somehow been forced to go on his bloody spree. If he had been Muslim, none of us would have been surprised to learn that he had yelled “Allah Akbar”. My contention is that the insanity that drives these individuals to commit horrendous acts of violence precedes all else but that they will inevitably pass the blame and attempt to justify their crimes.

We may learn that there was an effort on Hasan’s part to communicate with others sharing his views and designs for bloodshed. If that proves to be the case, then this becomes an act of terrorism but until then, I see it along the same lines as Wordsmith’s “hybrid”.

I hope you had a safe trip and I look forward to hearing your response.

@Hankster58:

There isn’t even a screen on that door – it’s nearly wide open as far as I’m concerned and that’s a disgrace. But Hasan was born in America, so let’s consider the border a separate issue for this discussion.

Again, I’m speaking from personal experience with soldiers and weapons. Your idea of arming everyone 24-7 is impractical and would result in large numbers of deaths and injuries every year. Accidental discharges happen but multiply that by about 500,000 and you begin to get the picture.

It is a frustrating situation and I wish there was a way we could be sure that something like this could never happen again but I don’t think that’s going to be possible, even if we did arm everyone in uniform at each and every CONUS assignment for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to the recruiter at the local shopping center. I have no way of knowing if there is another Hasan out there but quite frankly I wouldn’t want to have an armorer hand him an M4 and basic load to find out.

The difference between a violent “christian extremist” and a violent jihadist, is the “christian extremist” kills in spite of the teachings of Jesus, and the jihadist kills because he is following the way of mohammad and the teachings of the koran. All those ‘moderate muslims’ out there who supposedly have no intention on harming non-muslims are just a koran lesson away from turning jihadist. I think muslims have no place in the US military. Its like the fox guarding the hen house.

@Hankster58:

Have you ever heard any commanders call for arming troops in CONUS 24-7? I defer to them and from my own experience as a commander. If threat warnings warrant elevated Force Protection Conditions then commanders can make that call. If a facility is able to mount a Quick Reaction Force, then that might be a worthwhile consideration, but the last time I checked, distributing weapons and ammunition to every soldier, Marine, sailor and airmen is not even on the list of actions directed at FPCON Delta.

I don’t have low expectations, as you may be suggesting, but rather a breadth of experience dealing with 18 year olds and automatic weapons that you might not have yourself. Do you have any idea how many sheets of dry wall a 5.56 round can run through before it even starts to slow down? While I’m all for getting the most training possible to every troop, there is a limit to what can be accomplished on the largest of scales that you recommend.

oops – looks like I’ve got two more stuck in the spam filter. Probably for wordiness.

If I may joint in, tfhr and Robert Kelly, I will answer that I think muzlims have no right to live in the United States because they are a part of an organization whose stated intent is world domination. This means that they are a part of an effort to overthrow the government of the United States. We cannot continue to allow such people to live among us. We need to criminalize izlam, just like we once did the communist party.

You and I both probably know some very nice, calm, good citizen muzlims. That is really irrelevant, because they are still committed to a political-religious philosophy of world domination. Today they seem like nice folks, but they always do, until the day they turn on you.

A number of comments above have noted that the “moderate muzlims” need to get out in front on this and disavow violence, condemn actions such as what has happened at Ft. Hood, etc. Has anyone notice that this rarely, if ever, happens? If it does, it is always a very tepid statement. Do you know why? They do not really oppose it at all. They support it. How can they condemn it when it is exactly what izlam says they must all be doing? It is not because they are embarrassed in front of you and me that they don’t disavow it. It is because of the problems such a disavowal would cause them in their own communities, with their children, etc. The most they can possibly do is silence which is approval.

still stuck in the spam filter – help please.

tfhr, thank you for addressing this for me. I am bewildered and mad like many of the readers, with patience we will learn the facts. I am suspicious of this PC business of Mao, if his concept has some culpability in the tragedy, maybe it will begin to be discredited with the Liberal Socialists who envelop us with its nonsense.

On the question of weapons: I have never been to Israel, but in the photos of off duty army personnel in town, they are never without a rifle and as many of us know, a rifle without ammo is only useful in the up close and personal range. I mean to say, they are loaded and ready.

@Dr.D#58:

A number of comments above have noted that the “moderate muzlims” need to get out in front on this and disavow violence, condemn actions such as what has happened at Ft. Hood, etc. Has anyone notice that this rarely, if ever, happens? If it does, it is always a very tepid statement. Do you know why? They do not really oppose it at all. They support it.

Define “they”. Because your sentiments are rooted more in educated bigotry, telling the “moderates (an imperfect term)” what they believe, or should believe based upon your reading of the Koran, rather than allowing them to define who they are and what they believe, based upon their reading the koran. It’s whacked. You’re in denial that there are any good, peaceful Muslims, because your prejudiced brain has already condemned and defined them, lumping them in with the fundamentalists and extremists.

With enough folks like you who insist Islam is the enemy and its practitioners are “out to get you, because the Koran demands it of them”, “moderates” don’t need any koran to push them over the edge into the enemy camp: They have YOU to do that for them.

There is no excuse for the violent murders that Hasan is responsible for. However, if there is even a whittle of truth in reports that he felt some disaffection by experiencing anti-Islam bigotry, then you and those like you are part of the problem as much as the pc crowd of apologists are.

Muslim groups have been condemning Maj. Hasan’s mass murder. You either aren’t paying attention, or choose to willfully ignore and dismiss. What bothers me, is when they also go on to disassociate or disown any religious influence in Hasan’s act; absolving Islam of any possibility of contributing to Hasan’s decision to go on a killing spree. They do this because they fear a backlash- not because “they support it”, as you say. They fear persecution. When I see comments like yours, it gives me pause to think that maybe they have a leg to stand on, in their concern. One Muslim group leader on the news mentioned about hate-filled comments on the internet in wake of the Thursday killings. I guess he need look no further than some of the comments expressed in this thread.

Actually, FA’s comments are tame in comparison to some of the vitriolic anti-Islam hatred being spewed out there.

How can they condemn it when it is exactly what izlam says they must all be doing? It is not because they are embarrassed in front of you and me that they don’t disavow it. It is because of the problems such a disavowal would cause them in their own communities, with their children, etc. The most they can possibly do is silence which is approval.

Sorry. I call BS. Utter garbage.

@Wordsmith: I call BS on you. If you study the koran you will know that those “muslims groups” who denounce violent jihad can lie in accordance with the koran and the blessing of mohammad. It does not matter to me that they condemn the violence against innocence, because they do not see non-muslims as innocent. I had no “anti-muslim bigotry” until 9-11. That is when I found out that they are told to convert me, turn me into a dhimmi, or fight me until I am dead. It is the muslims who are bigoted against non-muslims and if you cant see this, you are blind. But you want to condemn those that point out the truth about islam. You say we should not say anything bad about islam because we might cause one of them to go jihad. You don’t seem to realize that they will go jihad anyways. Its in their DNA, its in their koran.

tfhr…. you said….
“” I don’t have low expectations, as you may be suggesting, but rather a breadth of experience dealing with 18 year olds and automatic weapons that you might not have yourself. Do you have any idea how many sheets of dry wall a 5.56 round can run through before it even starts to slow down?”"

>>Answer is, YEP!! Sure do…… not as many as the G3 i used to own, (7.62X51=fun!) but dangerous is dangerous, and you are right.
HOWEVER, if you read what i WROTE…. words like “handgun”.. “holster”…”9mm”….

???? how did you interpret THOSE words into full auto M-16″S?????

I also said….

“”Besides, I was taught the “handgun” is what you use to protect yourself until you can GET to the “big stuff” .. main combat weapon…. such as until you can get to the armory etc…”"

as you can plainly see by what I WROTE… I never intended in my statements for a mass of full auto armed guys to be running amok!!!! Further, if your belief is these guys are NOT “safe” enough to pack a sidearm…. we’ve got bigger problems!!

Hey Folks…
*We wait for the Article 32 Investigation to run it’s course
*We let the UCMJ proceedings make a Lawful, Judicial determination based on factual evidence
*Based on that outcome, in this case, Justice will be served

The Army as well as the rest of the Services must be put on notice that Individuals exhibiting behaviors that are in violation of SAEDA, the UCMJ or Standards of Conduct that make them Unfit for Service or are in violation of the Oaths they took to enter the Service be subject to Discharge under Less than Honorable Conditions. Period.

The time for Political Correctness or Tolerance of violation of Standards is Over. Military Service needs to be above Politics if Our Nation is to be Defended against All Enemies Foreign or Domestic. The MAJ should have been challenged earlier on on his Conduct, his Actions and Separated from Service. The Army screwed up big time. This is a Legal Process, not an Emotional one. I have always been troubled with “unofficial quotas” imposed by Political Correctness regarding Promotions, Assignments and Retention. Race, Religion or Gender should have no part in any selection processes in the Military. Let Service Members be Promoted, Retained or Assigned on Merit, not abstract statistical notions. National Security need not be undermined or placed at risk by quotas.

Allow me to remind you all that despite passage of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments, Pres. Truman, by Order, Desegregated the Military in 1948. Before passage in the 60’s of the Civil Rights Act. Things got further complicated later with the Military equivalent of Affirmative Action. It was in my mind not necessary to take that additional step as both the UCMJ and the US Constitution and Regulations had it ALL covered legally. There is no place for Politics in the Armed Forces or dissent outside the Standards for Conduct or Discipline. Discrimination or Disloyal Dissent that falls outside those bounds are Violations, Period.

In this case, Civil Authorities, the US DOJ or any outside Agencies need to stay the hell out of this and allow the UCMJ to function. The folks at Walter Reed were neglectfully outside the Standards in not dealing with the MAJ. Now it will be done as a result of Their Failure and with the great tragic human cost of that Failure on Their Shoulders. Any crap from CAIR or Congress Members concerned with the Legalities at this point needs to be disregarded. The UCMJ covers it. The UCMJ has an automatic review of Findings or as Civil Law calls it, Appeals.

It is very sad and tragic that AMEDD Failed the Army in not preventing this incident early on. Now, lets allow the UCMJ to function without outside influence or prejudice and lets have some of You FA Posters keep Your emotions in check.

I was an Enlisted Soldier that was OCS Commissioned, have two Post Graduate Degrees and succeeded despite being 1/4 Sioux Indian and a hick from the wilds of Montana. I retired as a Field Grade Officer on Merit, not Quotas. I have served in three wars in Combat Arms and served in both Command and Staff levels. There is no place in the Military for the KKK or Radical Islam folks. There is no place in the Military for what I call Hyphenated Americans or special interest groups. If Your Loyalties lie elsewhere, You do not Belong in My Army. Period. Your religion is not My Business unless it is subversive or requires human sacrifice at the full moon or anything else prohibited by Law.

Having followed the posts here, I felt it necessary to step up and comment on this thread. The Army held me to a higher standard than the Civilian world ever did. Lets get above the emotional nonsense please.

@Hankster58:

The US Army does not issue M9s to the majority of it’s personnel. The primary weapon is a rifle. Senior NCOs and officers are the personnel most likely to have been issued a pistol. That’s how it works. Apologies for implying that you did not understand this point.

@Old Trooper:

Amen.

@Wordsmith: Yes, and shia islam constitutes 85% of the muslim world population. I don’t believe that every muslim will eventually commit violent jihad, but their faith does dictate that jihad is a central duty of all muslims. This is not an extremist view, this is mainstream islamic jurisprudence. I don’t think it is in the best interest of the US or any freedom loving people to allow muslims to infiltrate and destroy our way of life, by using our own fear of being labeled a racist or bigot. As you should know, when the muslim population grows in any country, so does the violence against non-muslims. I for one do not want to wait until their number are great enough to do damage that would make 9-11 pale in comparison. There is no way to tell if a muslim is devote enough to take his beliefs that extra step towards violent jihad. The only remedy is to remove muslims from our society, as best we can, so we can reduce our exposure to the jihadists. To allow them to serve in our military, when they are at war with us, will only invite more attacks like at Fort Hood. What is your solution to combat the rise of violent jihad in the US? Condemning the attacks after the fact, while ignoring the root cause will not stop future attacks. And as for the muslims who claim to not support violent jihad, why would they claim to be muslims at all if they do not support its central duty, to spread islam, through ANY means? But what does it really matter what I think, I am just a bigot who hates these peaceful people who have never done anything to non-muslims….Right.

Sorry, Wordsmith, but I think you are simply in denial. Look at the facts.

Every muzlim subscribes to the koran, and the koran contains many, many injunctions for muzlims to kill non-muzlims and to conquer the world for izlam. You might say, “well, that is just an old book, written a long time ago, and the muzlims of today do not follow that” but the facts do not support that.

Someone, I think it was the president, or high muckitmuck of Turkey, who said just a few years ago, something to the effect that there is no fundamentalist izlam, no moderate izlam, etc. there is just izlam. He was telling us something: Muzlims may act differently in different circumstances, but they are all fundamentally exactly alike, they all believe exactly the same thing, namely the words of the koran.

Look at Europe, particularly France, England, and Sweden. There muzlims are claiming large swaths of territory as muzlim only territory, off limits to non-muzlims. They are saying that once they have “conquered” these places, they belong to izlam forever, and non-muzlims are no longer welcome there. They preach violence in their mosques, the threaten violent demonstrations if someone such as Geert Wilders simply comes to speak in Parliament, they carry signs saying things like “death to freedom”, “sharia will rule the UK”, etc. They harass and jeer returning troops coming back from Afghanistan. In Sweden, they call all Swedish women whores, and rape them at will. They justify this because the are “infidels” and have it coming as they see it. They rob Swedes on the street simply for the fun of it and brag about this. In France, they capture, imprision and torture a jewish man, simply for the fun it, before eventually murding him about 12 days later, all of the glory of allah. These are just a few, easily documentable specifics; there are countless more examples.

Look at how muzlims around the world reacted to the publication of the mohammed cartoons. They burned buildings and rioted all over the world. Even today, book publishers are self-censoring as a result of this.

It is delusional to ignore the warning given when someone tells you that he intends to force you to convert or be killed. This is the warning they have given us, and they have given it repeatedly.

Just how long do you think we can afford to indulge in this game of pretend, saying, “oh, they are really just like us” when they tell us repeatedly that they are not? This snake is going to bite us, and we are going to wake up dead. We will have no one to blame but our foolish selves for that! This is willful blindness.

As long as muzlims are small in numbers in an area, they keep a fairly low profile, they play by the rules, and they demand everything they can get from the majority by using the majority’s own rules. When they get stronger, they make more and more demands, such as special schools, special privileges, exemptions, etc. At some point, they begin to dominate the system and all havoc breaks loose. It has happened elsewhere time and again. Do we have to have it happen to us, or can we learn from the misfortune of others? Those who say it cannot happen to us simply cannot learn.

Glad You brought it up Bob. I was waiting for a post like yours or even more morbid and ridiculous.

Here Ya go:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/us-military-death-penalty

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache%3A3GWwo6ykUw8J%3Afas.org%2Firp%2Fdoddir%2Farmy%2Fr190_55.pdf+military+execution&hl=en&gl=us

As of 17 Jan, 2006 Lethal Injection is the only approved Federal method.
**********************************************************************

Number of Executions 135 people have been executed by the Army since 1916 (Source: National Law Journal, 4/5/99)
Date of last military execution On April 13, 1961, U.S. Army Private John A. Bennett was hanged after being convicted of rape and attempted murder. (R. Serrano, “Last Soldier to Die at Levenworth Hanged in an April Storm,” Los Angeles Times, 7/12/94).
Minimum Age to Receive the Death Penalty 18 years
Method of Execution Lethal Injection
Death Row Location U.S. Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas
United States Military Death Row Roster and sentencing rate Total: 9 (as of 1/1/2009)
Names:

1. Kenneth Parker (B)
2. [Wade L. Walker] (B)
3. [Jessie Quintanilla] (A)
4. [James T. Murphy] (B)
5. Ronald Gray (B)
6. Dwight J. Loving (B)
7. [William Kreutzer] (W)
8. Asan Akbar (B)
9. Andrew Witt (W)

Race:

Black – 6
White – 2
Asian – 1

Gender:

Male – 9
Names in brackets awaiting re-trial, re-sentencing, or where court ordered reversal is not yet final. (Source: NAACP Legal Defense Fund; updates by DPIC).

Under the current death penalty system (adopted in January 1984), there have been 47 capital courts-martial resulting in 15 adjudged death sentences, for a 31.9% prosecution “success” rate. (Federal Death Penalty Resource Counsel, March 2008).
Date the Death Penalty Was Reenacted after Furman In 1983, the Armed Forces Court of Appeals held in U.S. v. Matthews, 16 M.J. 354, that military capital sentencing procedures were unconstitutional for failing to require a finding of individualized aggravating circumstances. In 1984, the death penalty was reinstated when President Ronald Reagan signed an executive order adopting detailed rules for capital courts-martial. Among the rules was a list of 11 aggravating factors that qualify defendants for death sentences.

Life Without Parole
A recent amendment to the Uniform Code of Military Justice offers a new alternative to the death penalty. For crimes that occurred on or after November 17, 1997, a sentence of life without the possibility of parole is now possible. Prior to this legislation, those servicemembers serving a life sentence would be eligible for parole after serving 10 years.

Clemency Process
The President has the power to commute a death sentence and no servicemember can be executed unless the President personally confirms the death penalty.

Capital Offenses
The Uniform Code of Military Justice provides the death penalty as a
possible punishment for 15 offenses (10 USC Sections 886-934), many of which must occur during a time of war. All 9 men on the military’s death row were convicted of premeditated murder or felony murder.

Who Decides Sentence
In a military capital case, the convening authority — a high ranking commanding officer who decides to bring the case to a court martial — decides if the death penalty will be sought. Once decided, the convening authority picks those servicemembers who will serve as panel members/jurors. One requirement for the panel is that if the accused so chooses, at least 1/3 of the panel must consist of enlisted personnel.
The panel must consist of 12 members. (Rules for Courts-Martial 501(a)).
************************************************************************
I’m glad we got the Details posted and hopefully We can move along now.
The link to the method is the second link.

I had an Ranger School Instructor tell me quite a few years back that the cure for Ignorance is Information. The cure for Stupid is an untimely Death. Here is Your Info Bud.

*Due to the length of the list of possible Charges for MAJ Hasan, his Article 32 Investigation will take a LOT of Time.
*The Selection of the Board of Officers for trial will take some time.
*The Court Martial Proceedings will take a LOT of time due to the seriousness of the Offenses. This is a Capital Crime.
*The review of Findings by another Board of SJA Officers will take a LOT of Time.

We could very easily see Two Presidential Elections before an Execution Order is presented to the President for approval. So don’t hold your breath on an Execution any time soon.

I am very familiar with the UCMJ. At Ft. Bragg a long time ago, one of my Soldiers would not accept an SJA Officer for defense on a Court Martial. By Regulation a Soldier can select any Commissioned Officer for Defense Counsel. He did not trust just any Officer. He had deployed with my Team to the Philippines on a counter terror mission in the 80s. He picked me. I was not flattered by his choice but did the necessary homework. I ’schooled up’ and he was acquitted.
Absolutely the worst 10 months I spent in the Army.

Mad Capn Bob, be Judge Roy Bean in your fantasies but please don’t get the idea that it works that way in the real world. It quite honestly doesn’t Bud.

tfhr said……

“@Hankster58:

The US Army does not issue M9s to the majority of it’s personnel. The primary weapon is a rifle. Senior NCOs and officers are the personnel most likely to have been issued a pistol. That’s how it works. Apologies for implying that you did not understand this point.”

tfhr…. first off, we’re cool!! No problem… i in fact DID forget that basically it’s sgts (sometimes, under certain circumstances) and UP that get sidearms issued……. so you were correct there. MY point is tho, that this is NOT 1950 anymore!!! The “old way” of doing things doesn’t seem to fly well in almost 2010! The whole WORLD is different, even since I was a kid! (51 now)… maybe its HIGH TIME we “broadened” the scope of just who IS issued sidearms now!!

Obama, you listening?? Need to help the economy and make a few jobs??? Call up COLT, (the italians don’t need our bucks now, we NEED EM HERE!) and order up a truckload of 1911a1’s in 9mm (45 is better, but there’s that NATO thing) and issue them!! More safety, a bigger deterant, and jobs created! WOW! knocked off 3 things at once!
Just a thought…..

not so old saying goes….. “You may be anti gun…. You may be anti “religion”…. but when the SHTF…. you can be sure of two things,,,,, you’ll WISH you HAD a gun, and you’ll PRAY TO GOD someone who HAS one shows up in time!!”

Something else for you to consider before you start issuing weapons in CONUS:

The suicide rate is still a problem and so are domestic disputes in military families.
>> then we have a bigger problem AGAIN! Who are we hiring ?? are you telling be we’re sending that many “mentally unstable” guys into a war zone??? Armed to the max???

That’s life in the military today. It’s the job, it’s the demographic, you can take your choice but I can tell you that you’re going to lose a lot along the way to the showdown that may never come.

>> My choice?? Huh?? You’re losing me here, friend!! You mean my pov on this??

As for your choice on side arm calibers, I’ll split the difference with you on a .40 cal. I have no love for the M9 or it’s ammunition but LEAs have different requirements than the military and I defer to them when it comes to how they arm their personnel.

>> very true. I have a 9mm I carry… CZ75…. fine weapon. the .40 (or 10mm) has well proven it’s worth as a LEO tool…. I site the 45 for it’s historical knockdown punch, which I think a guy involved in CQB would WANT…… (me?? I’m waiting to get a look at that re-issue “Bren Ten” Vltor is coming out with!! Knockdown power on steriods!)

The Army’s mission is radically different and because of that our training, techniques and equipment are also different.

>> true again!! I like the Rush summed it up, “The Army’s job is to kill people and Break things”!! May sound crude, but it’s spot on!! Kick ass, and go home!! They are NOT “cops”….

Fighting the fight with an anti-terrorism strategy creates a blur between the traditional mission and something that might resemble a law enforcement mission at times but I hope the Army will continue to train soldiers to act like soldiers and not cops.

>> right you are again!!! This “police action” stuff is WAY “off base” for what these guys are really “trained” for…..in combat, a guy jumps out at you, he goes DOWN!! in this “cop business”…. you may well get thrown in JAIL for not “taking the time to “I.D” the “victim” first”!!
Sorry, NOT a “soldiers” job!!! This whole deal is one big rotten mess.. and putting “reserves” in as “line soldiers” sucks too!! If we are that short handed…. INCREASE the ARMY! SIMPLE!

Lastly just had a silly thought…. everyone is worried about arming the army like, well, THE ARMY!!
Yet, our local POLICE now have m-16’s and all sorts of well, ARMY weaponry!?!?!?! What’s up with THAT?

@ Old Trooper

Oh, that was rational!

@Robert Kelly #76:

Yes, and shia islam constitutes 85% of the muslim world population.

They are only in the majority only in certain countries, such as Iran and Azerbaijan. In Iraq, it’s more something like 62%. Sunni Islam, overall, is a larger denomination of Islam.

I don’t believe that every muslim will eventually commit violent jihad, but their faith does dictate that jihad is a central duty of all muslims.

Yes, but not all Muslims interpret jihad as the “radicals” do. There are Muslims who earnestly believe in the “inner struggle” definition of it.

I don’t think it is in the best interest of the US or any freedom loving people to allow muslims to infiltrate and destroy our way of life, by using our own fear of being labeled a racist or bigot.

I think in many instances, use of the racist/bigotry charge is misapplied. In your case, it leaves me wondering. And I called it “educated” bigotry, because your prejudice isn’t based upon a lack of education, but what I consider “over-educating” oneself on the dangers of Islam, by an overemphasis on anti-Islam and politically incorrect guides to Islam readings- books and material that push an agenda just as pc-laden “Islam is a religion of peace” propaganda seeks to push a pro-Islam agenda.

I think there is a danger in regards to Muslim leaders in America who are linked to extremist views and organizations; but many Muslims who have immigrated to this country do so because of freedoms and opportunity to live a better life, here. American Muslims like Dr. Jasser believe firmly in the U.S. Constitution and the separation of mosque and state. He has no desire to live under Sharia. Does his reformist views make him no longer a true adherent to Islam? An apostate? Perhaps; but it is only through acceptance of reformists like him who embrace modernity and the belief that “Islam is peace” that we won’t find ourselves declaring war and hostility to 1.5 billion of the world’s population. These Muslims reject the apostasy of bin Laden and Zawahiri, whose al Qaeda theolgy is influenced by Qutb and the writings of another whose name escapes me at the moment, as much as anything ever writ in the koran.

As you should know, when the muslim population grows in any country, so does the violence against non-muslims.

As does the “backlash”, lashing out at Muslims who have nothing to do with the likes of al Qaeda or Nidal Hasan.

Europe has a problem with their Muslim population. But America has had more success with integrating Muslim immigrants into mainstream American society.

Not every Muslim is scheming on ways and means to dhimmify you.

I for one do not want to wait until their number are great enough to do damage that would make 9-11 pale in comparison.

Nor I. Which is why I’m all for behavioral profiling.

There is no way to tell if a muslim is devote enough to take his beliefs that extra step towards violent jihad.

Sure there is. There are sign posts, all along the way. The problem arises when we ignore the signposts.

The only remedy is to remove muslims from our society, as best we can, so we can reduce our exposure to the jihadists.

So…..do you advocate an amendment to amend the First Amendment? “Congress shall make no laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion…except Islam”?

To allow them to serve in our military, when they are at war with us, will only invite more attacks like at Fort Hood.

Again, who is “they”? Narrow your definition rather than the broad lumping for Allah to sort out.

Muslims are as much at war with the violent extremists as we are. And American Muslims have a stake in the fight as much as Nisei did in WWII. You tell Sgt. Abdelhalim that America rejects him, and that he’s wasting his time being a part of the American dream, and defending its freedoms:

One problem our intell agencies have had is in the number of Arab translators and those born into the culture. We need them in this fight. The majority of Muslims serving thus far, have served honorably. Some might even have political beliefs that, like Democrats, don’t exactly support the war on terror, politically, but who are willing to carry out their duty with professionalism as American soldiers. Should there be a litmus test, however? Maybe so. I think any time we are at war with a nation and have someone with ties to said nation, should be scrutinized for possible divided loyalties. They should be screened. Those who pass the screening, should be allowed to serve.

What is your solution to combat the rise of violent jihad in the US?

Counter leftwing anti-U.S. foreign policy matters for one, that perceives us as imperialists and attackers of Muslim nations.

Distinguish and discriminate between peaceful Muslims and those aligned to the side of the Islamists and Islamic terror.

Condemning the attacks after the fact, while ignoring the root cause will not stop future attacks.

And telling Muslims who have already rejected al Qaeda theology and jihadi mentality that “you’re no different than they are- go away!” only serves the interests of bin laden and Zawahiri who failed to rally the Muslim world against the west. Attitudes like the one you promote may do what they have failed to accomplish.

And as for the muslims who claim to not support violent jihad, why would they claim to be muslims at all if they do not support its central duty, to spread islam, through ANY means?

Because I find the premise of your question flawed. The assumption on your part is for you to define Islam for its practitioners, rather than allowing its practitioners to define it themselves. Basically, you’re siding with the jihadi/hirabi/takfiri interpretations. Anyone diverging from it, supposedly, is no longer practicing “true Islam”. But who is hijacking whose religion? There are gross problems within Islam that makes it incompatible with living in the 21st century world, free from conflict with others, IF you are a strict fundamentalist adhering to wahhabism and other rigid interpretations.

But what does it really matter what I think, I am just a bigot who hates these peaceful people who have never done anything to non-muslims….Right.

Why play the victim card? I’m only going by views you’ve expressed. Your mistake is in not narrowing your focus to simply “those you hate”, but encompassing a whole group of people, and expanding the reach and range of “those you hate”.

@Robert Kelly #77:

It was not the ‘reformers’ who inspired modern jihadists, it was the fact that through petroleum revenues, the jihadist are now capable of renewing the fight against the non-believers. The jihadists today do not twist the koran, they are getting back to the ‘true words of allah’. Its not my interpretation, it is theirs, and that is why I am opposed to islam.

But you are taking “their interpretation” and projecting it onto other Muslims with divergent interpretations. And to say the modern jihadi movement is the same as it’s always been from centuries ago, is not accurate.

@Dr.D #78:

Sorry, Wordsmith, but I think you are simply in denial. Look at the facts.

I’m looking at “the facts”. I probably read from some of the same Robert Spencerian material, politically-incorrect guide to Islam books that you’ve come across. I post on a rightwing blog, after all. I’m the same “Wordsmith” who compiled this.

Because we have a different conclusive outlook on “the Muslim problem”, please don’t lump me in with “those living in denial”, setting up strawmen and ascribing to me, PC-laden views I don’t hold.

Look at how muzlims around the world reacted to the publication of the mohammed cartoons. They burned buildings and rioted all over the world.

Media sensationalism. Let’s see….did 1.5 billion Muslims actually protest “around the world” and burn buildings, as you say? Or was it a sizable minority- maybe 10,000 here, a few more hundred over there? That sells papers and is the news; but the vast majority of Muslims were not out rioting in the streets.

Even today, book publishers are self-censoring as a result of this.

Yeah…and the movie 2012 apparently was sanitized of any showing of Mecca being destroyed, because the director didn’t want a fatwa on his head.

[sarcasm]I’m sure Muhammad Ali would have answered that call to jihad on the director’s sorry ass; because, after all, the former Cassius Clay is a devout Muslim and we all know what that means. [/sarcasm]

Wordsmith, are you really ready for America to look like Sweden where the women are routinely addressed by muzlim ‘youths’ as whores, simply because they are white? Where they are raped because they must be asking for it? Where muzlim “youth” rob the natives on the street for the fun of it and then brag about the rush they get from this?

Maybe you prefer the English version where they have taken over most of Manchester and a number of other English towns and deny entry to white Englishmen? Where they jeer at the East Anglian regiment returning from Afghanistan? Where they threaten to riot with 10000 protesters in the street if Geert Wilders is allowed to simply speak to a private group in a small room in the Parliament building? Etc.

How about the French version where they routinely burn hundreds of cars in a night, just for the fun of it? They burn blocks of buildings, and assault the firefighters and police that respond. Sounds really great, doesn’t it?

Have you seen the numbers on muzlim verson nonmuzlim reproduction? Around the world, muzlims are having about 6 children or more per woman, while nonmuzlims are running about 1.2 children per woman. We are very shortly on the verge of being overwhelmed. If we do not resist, we will simply be inundated with the numbers that we cannot resist.

Are we simply going to allow ourselves to be submerged in a rising tide of muzlims, or will we do something to stem that tide?

I have a LOT of family in the Netherlands (Holland if you will) and you do NOT want to let things get to the level THEY are at now…. The islamics (mostly Turkish) have all but over run the country,, in Amsterdam to the point that the “natives” are afraid to go out during the day… all but NEVER at night!! All because they were overly “nice” (liberal) and allowed just about anything to go….and anyone to come in… right up to the point that THEIR nation is all but SOMEONE ELSES now!!!

Check on Denmark.. France… ENGLAND, our CLOSEST ALLY……. how do we tell who from whom? I don’t really know that answer, but we better figure it out, and FAST!

I’ve kept this from last year during the campaign. The percentages are certainly more than referenced here…figures from 2007.

The Muslims plan is to migrate to new countries and breed. When you have enough, start demanding..take the country. Read this excellent article from the “Freedom’s Enemies” site:

Islam is not a religion nor is it a cult. It is a complete system.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic and military components. The religious component is a beard for all the other components.

Islamization occurs when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called “religious rights.”

When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to “the reasonable” Muslim demands for their “religious rights,” they also get the other components under the table.

Here’s how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007)).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

United States — Muslim 1.0%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1%-2%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halaal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. (United States).

France — Muslim 8% Actually, now up to about 11% since this was published.
Philippines — Muslim 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago — Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris — car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam — Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:

Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of “Dar-es-Salaam” — the Islamic House of Peace — there’s supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
Somalia — Muslim 100%
Yemen — Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that’s not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

“Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world. And all of us against the infidel. — Leon Uris, “The Haj”

It is good to remember that in many, many countries, such as France, the Muslim populations are centered around ghettos based on their ethnicity. Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. Therefore, they exercise more power than their national average would indicate.

Along with the Muslim migration to the US, we are also overrun with illegals from Mexico. Hope I’m not caught in the crossfire when they start shooting at one another…oh, wait. They’ll both be shooting at us.

I attended a dinner Saturday night was was seated at a table of strangers. One was a retired teacher from Salinas who was commenting on political correctness. I thought uh oh…but turns out she was giving a bit of education to the PC ladies from Pacific Grove and Carmel at the table. She said that she used to feel the same way they do about diversity; that it’s always romanticized on the Left but when your neighborhood, where you have owned your home for years, becomes a war zone from the Mexican gangs, you wake up fast. As I got the gist of who was who at the table, I realized that they were being oh so tolerant…terminal niceness cases, patronizing her so I jumped right in and backed her up. My experience of living in Salinas for a year while attending classes was a horror. I couldn’t wait to get out of there and I won’t be going back any time soon…for anything. Shootings every week and the city fathers decided that group fasting and getting the grandmothers to hold their boys accountable was a good way to go. Hahahahaha. Steinbeck Country is long gone and now it’s Little Tijuana and Grandma and the rest of the non-English speaking family are supported by gang drug money. And they are in every state. We need the US Army to come in and secure the borders then round them up and dump them on Vicente’s doorstep.

The Muslims are headed in the same direction. I haven’t heard if the first Hamas sympathizing Palestinians that Obama has budgeted $200million for immigration have started arriving. If not, we need to stop it. That’s insane…unless of course, you believe it suits his overall agenda.

@Hankster58: I think it became African-American as in I was a slave, it’s your fault and you owe me. Same with the rest. I’ve never been a British-American; my ancestors were proud of the revolution we fought in…and they earned being called American. Anyone who wants to come her legally, become naturalized, etc., should be that proud too.

@Dr.D:

@ Patvann

Where is the “unthinking strawman argument”?

I did not say he want to make America into the situation in Europe.

No, but you begged the question:

Wordsmith, are you really ready for America to look like Sweden

~~~

Maybe you prefer the English version

Which is a fallacious way of arguing, since you’ve now shifted the goal posts and require us to accept the premise before providing the proof, that because of my position (which seems to be confused with that taken by multiculturalists and the PC-burdened), America will go the route of Europe, which I agree has an Islamist-infestation problem. As Patvann points out, America is not Europe.

The problems of a country like France stems from its discrimination policies as much as the desire not to assimilate into French society on the part of Muslim immigrants. Basically by not carrying out a policy of assimilation, France has a situation of “mini nations within a nation”.

America, on the other hand, has for the most part, successfully integrated immigrant populations into mainstream America. My fear is the diversity crowd and multiculturalists who wish to dilute American core traditions, principles, and native culture through the rejection of assimilation. By promoting multiculturalism, bilingualism, and segregated communities that don’t encourage people to think of themselves as Americans first and foremost, you will end up with those of divided loyalties.

According to a Pew study a while back, most Muslim Americans appear to have integrated themselves into mainstream America. Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and falafels:

The first-ever, nationwide, random sample survey of Muslim Americans finds them to be largely assimilated, happy with their lives, and moderate with respect to many of the issues that have divided Muslims and Westerners around the world.

The Pew Research Center conducted more than 55,000 interviews to obtain a national sample of 1,050 Muslims living in the United States. Interviews were conducted in English, Arabic, Farsi and Urdu. The resulting study, which draws on Pew’s survey research among Muslims around the world, finds that Muslim Americans are a highly diverse population, one largely composed of immigrants. Nonetheless, they are decidedly American in their outlook, values and attitudes. This belief is reflected in Muslim American income and education levels, which generally mirror those of the public.

Key findings include:

* Overall, Muslim Americans have a generally positive view of the larger society. Most say their communities are excellent or good places to live.

* A large majority of Muslim Americans believe that hard work pays off in this society. Fully 71% agree that most people who want to get ahead in the United States can make it if they are willing to work hard.

* The survey shows that although many Muslims are relative newcomers to the U.S., they are highly assimilated into American society. On balance, they believe that Muslims coming to the U.S. should try and adopt American customs, rather than trying to remain distinct from the larger society. And by nearly two-to-one (63%-32%) Muslim Americans do not see a conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society.

* Roughly two-thirds (65%) of adult Muslims in the U.S. were born elsewhere. A relatively large proportion of Muslim immigrants are from Arab countries, but many also come from Pakistan and other South Asian countries. Among native-born Muslims, roughly half are African American (20% of U.S. Muslims overall), many of whom are converts to Islam.

* Based on data from this survey, along with available Census Bureau data on immigrants’ nativity and nationality, the Pew Research Center estimates the total population of Muslims in the United States at 2.35 million.

There are a couple of points to be concerned with, however:

* Muslim Americans reject Islamic extremism by larger margins than do Muslim minorities in Western European countries. However, there is somewhat more acceptance of Islamic extremism in some segments of the U.S. Muslim public than others. Fewer native-born African American Muslims than others completely condemn al Qaeda. In addition, younger Muslims in the U.S. are much more likely than older Muslim Americans to say that suicide bombing in the defense of Islam can be at least sometimes justified. Nonetheless, absolute levels of support for Islamic extremism among Muslim Americans are quite low, especially when compared with Muslims around the world.

I think first generation Muslims who left their native lands, did so in order to seek a better life. Iranian-Americans, for instance, understand what it’s like to live under a true totalitarian regime.

The second generation youth, I am guessing, are influenced by the same anti-American spirit that pervades our universities. Liberal indoctrination that sees American imperialism and promotes “cultural equality” over assimilation, just may convince some Muslim youths to have misguided romanticized notions about insurgents in Iraq being “freedom fighters”, and “fighting the good fight” against oppression, racism- all those idealistic struggles that appeal to young people. A lot of our youth in general aren’t being taught that Americans rescue Muslims: We came to the rescue of Kuwait at the behest of Saudi Arabia; that we came to their rescue in Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia. From 1980 to 2001, the primary deliverer of humanitarian aid to Afghanistan and 80% of the aid distributed by the NGOs within the framework of the World Food Prgram was paid for by Americans; that today, we are helping to protect Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan from extremists.

Nope. Besides any conspiratorial propaganda coming from the Middle East, all they need do is go to the latest Hollywood flick or open up the NYTimes to see how badly America is treating Muslims and oppressing the world at large.

* A majority of Muslim Americans (53%) say it has become more difficult to be a Muslim in the United States since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Most also believe that the government “singles out” Muslims for increased surveillance and monitoring.

I used to feel that the persecution of Arab Americans and American Muslims after 9/11 are exaggerated claims and a problem of perception. But some of the commenters here make me wonder….

As far as “singling out” Muslims, I have no problem with reasonable surveillance if given adequate cause based upon behavioral profiling as much as anything else. Muslims at AIFD (Dr. Jasser’s group) agree with being profiled:

* Relatively few Muslim Americans believe the U.S.-led war on terror is a sincere effort to reduce terrorism, and many doubt that Arabs were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Just 40% of Muslim Americans say groups of Arabs carried out those attacks.

That’s living in denial, and is worrisome. Kinda like that statistic about the number of people who felt the government had something to do with being behind 9/11.

I don’t think it’s all that uncommon for groups to want to live in denial when their particular ethnicity or nation of origin or religion, feels to be under attack. People, by nature, will come up with excuses and rationalize.

I have a strong aversion to hyphenated American pride these days. Yes, it’s nice to take pride in where you come from; but these days, I see the dangers of that. Not just with muslim Americans with ties to Middle Eastern countries hostile to the U.S., let alone ties to Islam; but also with those who wave around foreign flags and cheer foreign soccer teams (yes, I’m thinking of Mexican-Americans- what a racist I am!). If we ever went to war with Mexico, you bet I’d question the loyalty of some citizens of Mexican heritage. Nothing racist about it, but makes perfect sense if you read Michelle Malkin’s book, The Case for Internment. Anyone with divided loyalties deserves scrutiny in wartime. It should not only be expected, but encouraged and endorsed by the very people who claim to love America before love of their native country we may be warring against.

Here Here!!

Do you have any idea what a person had to go thru, as late as 1956, just to IMMIGRATE to America???? This just walk in crap,i don’t know when it started… but it IS the leading cause of much of our “National Upheaval” we’re dealing with today…. My dad was almost DENIED entry…. because an X-ray of his chest showed what “could have been” TB…. had to have an X-ray and med history sent over from Holland showing it was “scar tissue” from childhood Pneumonia!!!! You see them examining people that close TODAY??? And one wonders why we have so many nutcakes getting in!!! Also, one had to have a U.S. SPONSOR, who helped and kept tabs on you for a YEAR, just to make sure you got your feet on the ground, help if needed with any issues, and got off to a good start…. Today???? nada….. anything goes…. and look what’s happening!!!

And WORDSMITH…. there’s nothing wrong with being proud of ones heritage! I agree!! In St.Louis…. there was “Bevo Day” (German heritage celebration in “what was” a predominately German neighborhood once a year)…. “Hill Day”..( held up “on the hill”, a part of St. Louis predominately Italian”) everyone in town knows the best Italian food is “on the Hill”…. Over in Millstadt there’s an Octoberfest, same in Hermann …. that’s cool! St. Charles has a FRENCH festival….History is an IMPORTANT thing.. reminds of how we got here.. the fact they now tend to IGNORE it is part of the cause of the crap going on NOW!!