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Wordsmith – first of all, I appreciate the dialouge. I don’t have a problem with people that disagree with me, only those that don’t support their statements.

You make good points in the first section. I do see a problem with “trying to make different ethnicities feel good about themselves, trying to the illusion of equal historical contribution and significance to the shaping of this nation?”

I would say that would be a great example of not telling the “truth.” My reply, though, would be that because of the history of this country oppressing Women and minorities, it is in many ways, accomplishments by these groups are greater than they might seem on the surface. Take George Washington Carver. I would say, don’t try to elevate his accomplishments above what they were, but instead show that to accomplish anything with the resources and access that he had and the wall that he had to break through was truly amazing. That he made great accomplishments to science is even more amazing – And that he dedicated his work to helping poor farmers is noble. It is important to mention the first Woman or African-American to do something because many times they faced a greater uphill battle to do those things. As for Lies My Teacher Told Me, I would say, don’t be afraid to admit the things that are true in the book – but don’t be afraid to debate them either. I read the book for a college class in which the teacher was not trying to push the ideas of the book on the students – rather he was offering a different perspective than the one we got in grade school and asked us to debate what we thought. It’s funny, because I ended up on the more conservative side of the debate most of the time in class, even though I consider myself a Liberal because too many in the class did not have enough background on the issues.

I also very much enjoy the “Major Problems in American History” series because of its collection of primary source documents. There was another book that I had once, but can’t remember the name, that had a series of essays of conflicting viewpoints on a particular historical issue, like the causes of the Civil war, for example, and then left it up to the reader to form their opinion. This is the problem with our History textbooks, they are written in the form of bland fact-stating and do not offer multiple perspectives. For what its worth, I do think that our textbooks are too politically correct, but also do not address or adequately address other issues like socioeconomic oppression, class warfare, institutionalized racism, reverse racism, the military industrial complex, the legality of America’s expansion and race towards manifest destiny, and the extermination of native people, whether intentionally or un-intentionally.

Mike – see post #34. You are not having a good day…

As far as the accountable issue, in case I wasn’t clear, what’s wrong with checking with a student down the road to see if they have followed through with what they said they would do? Example, a student writes a letter to Obama saying that they’ll turn off the T.V. and study more…..3 months later, the teacher asks the student if they are doing that.

If the content of the speech is neutral – there is nothing wrong with writing quotes on the wall and writing letters. Those are standard tactics that teachers use to try to help students think deeply about something. If you’ve ever taught a room full of 7th graders, you know just getting them to think about what you are teaching them instead of zoning out all afternoon is 90% of the battle.

From post #44: “The supporting curriculum is meant to make the students actually think about what he says and not just go in one ear and out the other.”

Man, Mike, are you reading anything here…

Aaron: You have obviously not read my previous posts regarding the curriculum. Again, it is more important for you to try to be insulting than to try to be intelligent.

Obviously, I *have* read your previous posts. And, if you wish to be anal… which seems to be your specialty in a “wide definition” sort of way… “again” would mean that you have addressed *me*… not other commenters… prior to this moment. You have not. Obviously what I have provided in my two posts (neither of which you have responded prior to in substance other the above terse comment) seems to be beyond your ability to dissuade.

So let’s recap your “previous posts regarding the the curriculum” that you rely on for your insulting defense, shall we?

Aaron #25: Please tell me the specifics of what you disagree with in the curriculum supplied by the Obama administration to coincide with the speech.

Saying that there is a curriculum, or that there are assignments along with the speech does not mean that anything in the speech or curriculum will be politically biased. If there is nothing in the speech or curriculum that you object to, then why do you object to it?

I, speaking for myself personally, have already pointed out EXACTLY what the “specifics” are (via a linked thread comment) in the “curriculum supplied by the Obama administration to coincide with the speech”. Obviously they (Obama’s Dept of Education appointee and handlers) agreed with my assessment of their poor choice of curriculum since they are furiously backpeddling in the days prior to the speech release.

Aaron #34: PLEASE STATE WHAT IN THE CONTENT OF THE CURRICULUM FOR OBAMA’S ADDRESS YOU DISAGREE WITH, OR WHAT COULD BE CONSIDERED LIBERAL INDOCTRINATION.

I see it takes a while for reality to settle in for you. See above…

BTW, your comments inbetween added no substantial or cogent debate other than taunting Mike’s A on a typo. Oh yes, add your equally nebulous AGW arguments out of the blue.

Aaron again #34: Yes, the material talks a lot about what Obama said and even if it “inspires” you. But the point remains that if Obama is speaking on a completely neutral subject then the bias in the materials is neutral.

Discussing a child’s perception of their future… of which would be difficult to determine let alone hold “accountable” at that age… is hardly “neutral”. No child should be pressured into making career, political and community future decisions and being held accountable for the fruition of their futures at that age. Most especially under the guise/threat of “helping” your President.

Aaron… again #36 : You cannot say that it’s okay for the government to create an Air Force, but not a national health plan, if the 10th amendment is your test.

You really are Constitution challenged. Military and defense of the nation is a Contitutional mandate for the feds. Even with your argument (of which I agree that much of which has been done is *not* Constitutional… *if* anyone would actually advance that challenge thru the court system). However State’s rights have nothing to do with military, nor a CIC’s ability to dispatch those troops without a Congressional mandate of war. *Some*… and very few… powers are inarguable. And the existance of a US military and the powers of a CIC are unquestionably federal and Constitutional powers. And troop movement doesn’t require an act of Congress…. or the formal declaration of war.

Not so with a national health plan. And perhaps you miss how a federal health plan infringes on State’s rights to mandate their own state’s coverage specifics (as they do, which makes portability the Constitutional problem).

In short, your attempt to make that State’s rights template fit – most especially using the military as an example – falls considerably short of even the most basic Constitutional reality. The majority of your arguments actually fall into the Congressional seizure of wide abilities to tax under a very vague (and disputed) “general welfare” argument. And frankly, I’d like to see many of those issues get challenged and advance thru our court system.

Since the entire original topic of debate, you have forayed into every tangent possible to elude and dilute your original misconceptions. Yet you accuse me of a lack of “intelligence”? May I say, Aaron, that it takes somewhat a pyschophrenic mind to even attempt following your train of logic. And in the final, you sum up your entire acceptance of all nefarious deeds that go on as this…

To sum up, everybody knows that the government is bigger than it was 200 years ago, but the world and America is a very different place. The constitution provides a framework for how to decide and puts limits on what you can decide, but in order to be consistent in your thinking, ask yourself how much of what you approve that government does is really an enumerated power.

Well gee… why not just start out with that. We’d know the loon we have right off the bat. You have forever labeled your ill-train of thought as a child of the “living constitution” public education system. Two centuries ago to now, the Constitutional powers delegated to the feds and states remains constant. The only thing that has changed is lily livered citizens like yourself who “accept” abuses as part of the times, instead of demanding the abusers are held accountable.

Instead of fighting those that seize power, you fight your fellow citizens who aren’t as lazy as you are. Imagine what could happen if you turned your energies on who was the real enemy of your liberty instead.

Or would that forever mess up your battle for what entitlements you think the government owes you?

All this typing is making me tired – time to go play some chess. (anybody use gameknot.com)

Thanks to all of those that actually entered the discussion. Mike, I’ll check back to see if you ever actually support any of your arguments, or try to put together anything other than Liberal bashing. What is it in Obama’s speech that you disagree with? – you can use command (or control) – F to search through my posts to find where I’ve already stated my opinion.

You can read the speech here:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/MediaResources/PreparedSchoolRemarks/

So…I assume that you might have a problem with this paragraph..

“You’ll need the knowledge and problem-solving skills you learn in science and math to cure diseases like cancer and AIDS, and to develop new energy technologies and protect our environment. You’ll need the insights and critical thinking skills you gain in history and social studies to fight poverty and homelessness, crime and discrimination, and make our nation more fair and more free. You’ll need the creativity and ingenuity you develop in all your classes to build new companies that will create new jobs and boost our economy.”

But, does anyone disagree with fighting cancer and aids, protecting the environment, fighting poverty, crime and discrimination, or creating jobs. What’s missing here is any suggestion of HOW to go about doing that. Liberals and conservatives agree on many desired outcomes, we just disagree on how to get there. (At least I don’t think conservatives want to destroy the environment, right?)

For example, None of us, I hope, want people to be homeless, but we can debate all day long about what its best to do about it and how to fight it- and so can the students.

hmmm… exit at 8:45pm. My response at 8:36pm. Thanks for that link to the Big Zero’s speech, Aaron. Conclusive proof you did not read my own comment linked in my first of three posts on this thread, or you would see that I already not only linked the speech text, but the docTOC to the DOE curriculum in full as well. Mr. Curious you are not, I guess.

Either Mr. Aaron is sexist in with whom he will engage, lacking strength in his fingers to continue a cyber debate due to other activities, or unable to defend his “living Constitution” education. LOL

Yes… I have better things to do as well. As I said to Gaffa.. “lost causes are not my bag”.

No Moral Equivalence Between Reagan and Bush Address to School Children and Obama Indoctrination

Plans given by others in authority, such as the principal, superintendent, or the President, should be treated only as mere suggestions. Teachers should not be compelled to report to the authority as to the extent they followed the suggested plans.

In response to No Child Left Behind, school districts are doing that.
Not merely lesson plans, but an actual script for the teachers to follow.
The goal is that when you walk into any school in the district, you will see the same lesson at each grade level.
That is the way it is done where my sibling teaches, Prince George’s County Public Schools.
And it has had the desired result. The school district is well on it way to meeting the 100% proficient or advanced requirement of NCLB.
Another friend working in a different school system in a different state, says they do not have lesson plans or a script and they will not make AYP.

Again, the criticism is not so much the talk as the ordering teachers to follow Obama’s lesson plans

Orders?
Order which must be obeyed?
Care to support the ordered bit, Mr. Aranoff?

MataHarley –

As far as the constitutional issue, I have addressed it. Where does it say in the constitution that there will be anything other than a militia, i.e. not a standing force, an army and a navy. As for “providing for the defense of the nation.” Look at article 1, section 8, clause 1.

“The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.”

How can you say that this allows for the federal government to provide for our defense and not our welfare through a national health plan? Defense and Welfare are two loaded words and cover a LOT of different things. I am not saying that I don’t think we should have an air force, or that its illegal to use troops without a declaration of war. I am saying, though, if you accept these things, then you cannot turn around and say that national healthcare or social security is somehow unconstitutional. As for defending against invasion, what kind of an invasion does that apply to? Does it mean solely a military one, if we expand it to things like biological warfare, can the government allow everybody to get medical attention.

So…would you say that Federal government has no right to enforce de-segregation in schools, and that should be left up to the states? And, yes, I do subscribe to the “living constitution” train of thought. AND SO DO YOU! You cannot pick and choose one issue to say be a strict constructionist and another to be liberal. Do you really want to dismantle everything that the government does that is not in the constitution?

Also, your point about states rights – I am only mentioning that because of the previous post about amendment #10. Obviously the states rights part applies to whether the power to create a universal health plan lies with the federal or state government.

As for the enemy of our personal liberty – What about someone who is in a terrible accident? Their life is forever changed, AND they have to loose everything because their insurance won’t cover them? The majority of bankruptcies caused by medical bills are from people that had insurance. You have to consider the OUTCOMES of a certain policy. If you want to object to a national health plan in principle, fine. I object in principle to people dying because they don’t go to the doctor because they know they can’t afford it. You can say that Medicare is unconstitutional, but would you force an 80 year old with a heart condition to go shop for his own policy? What is more important to you? We have different principles. You want to hold the government to the letter of the law, no matter what the outcome. My principle is this: “How can we best protect, defend, and help to ensure a better life for our citizens.” If you would rather deny people the ability to see the doctor and let people live on the street because they loose everything to medical bills in the richest nation on earth, fine. Al least you have your principles, right?

MataHarley – ever think that maybe I started typing my thing that I posted at 8:45 before 8:36. When I started typing, you had not posted yet and I had not refreshed my page, so I hadn’t read it yet. Wow, did I really just have to explain that to you?

As far as being a “lost cause,” if you mean trying to get me to stop caring about people’s well being and just worry about the letter of the law, then yes, I am. If it makes me a socialist to care about the poor and disenfranchised, then yes, I am. And don’t kid yourself into believing that you actually care. Look at the HDI of other more socialist countries. Their people are healthier, their babies have a better survival rate, and they have a higher overall standard of living. As I said before, my principle is just different than yours. Mine is based on people, yours on laws.

No Aaron, I’m having a fine day. What I am not having is any readability with this thread because of these longwinded, diversionary tactics.

If you had a point to make it got lost in the blizzard of verbosity long ago.

Aaron, you are johnny come lately to the “general welfare” clause in Art 1, Sec 8. Instead of any of us having to repeat ourselves for yet another one who isn’t familiar with the founders/framers intent, and the ensuing legal battles, please read up our conversations with the Canuck, weeweemary who suffered from the same misunderstanding. It will save us all a lot of typing, and re-typing.

Yes, I know you are a “living constitution” type. Already said I recognize that. But do not assume I am of your ilk. Far from it. Do not miscontrue my financial inability to challenge all legislative decisions that I disagree with thru appellate courts to SCOTUS as tacit acceptance.

Gotta love all the emotional BS you end that response with. Indeed, all the hormonal/testosterone posts from top to bottom. Definitely not an analyst, but one guided by where ever your emotions take you for the moment.

You apparently show up here for the first times, have not have the interest nor wherewithall to explore with whom you cyber speak with reading a bit of the forums before leaping in to insert both cyber feet in your mouth. Do you do this when you first meet people as well? Just jump in ? Or do you try to get to know them by listening (reading) first? All is easily done by delving back into our archives… easily found via category in the “Categories and Archives” link across the top.

If you had, you’d find my numerous posts most especially on health care and Medicare. None of which I particularly wish to reiterate for you here. But I’ll give you a clue as to some of their content… and especially as one who is but years away from Medicare myself.

First of all, the 65+ haven’t much choice. We’ve been robbed of Medicare/SS taxes from our earnings since at least 1965. We’ve already paid for our Medicare long before we were allowed to tap into it. And as a matter of fact, you’re currently being robbed for your Medicare… it’s paying for the 12-15% on Medicare now, shafting providers in payments, and STILL in the hole. Now why do you think that making a “new age” Medicare for 65 and under is going to work when every working American contributes to Medicare now and it’s bankrupt by 2017?

Second of all… the 65+ haven’t much choice… again. Hall vs Sebelius. Another post. Read up on it, and get back to us. You’re too far behind the curve on this subject to waste much more time.

You’re little emotional heartbreaking stories and touchy feely rhetoric in no way relates to the legislation proposed… which isn’t “reform” and cutting costs, but “remaking” health care into a fiscal loser and quality killer. (again, check the dang archives….) You cite the “I care, but you’re heartless” mantra, and yet can’t effectively analyze what these bills actually mean over time. You simply believe rhetoric and emotion.

I believe facts, figures and history. What I believe we should do actually takes care of we ol’ folk and those in dire straights. What you believe we should do makes you feel good… until care and the economy go down the tubes. Unfortunately, by the time you wake up to the fact you’ve been duped… despite the warnings of the CBO, various economists and simple history, it’s too late. And you’ll truly have damaged those that you believe you wish to aid…. and even more.

So yes.. .you’re a lost cause because you reject facts and figures, and prefer to believe your emotions that you’re taking the moral high ground. When reality is presented that you cannot argue, you only cast silly notions about how those who disagree with you are cruel and uncaring. That’s not debate. That’s retreat by the uninformed.

Other western European countries provide healthcare and their economies are in better, more sustainable shape than ours.

What would seniors do without medicare, even assuming that you didn’t have to pay into it for your entire life? Do you have any idea how much having cancer can cost?

My wife is a quadriplegic because of an accident. Lifetime care costs for average quads is anywhere from 2-4 million dollars. So……the only reason we’re still covered is because my Union bargained a good healthcare policy and there is no lifetime cap on benefits. In your world with no union, we don’t have as good of a policy and after we are dropped we loose everything we own and we end up on the street because as a Teacher I just can’t make enough money to pay for her care without the help of Medicare. And even if we are not dropped, what happens if I want to change jobs or when I retire? Should your employer have so much power over you that you cannot ever leave your job if you have an injury like that? What is your answer to this situation? Again, consider the outcomes of not having Medicare. Do you believe that people that just “choose” to become paralyzed deserve to be on the street? Judging from your post, I cannot come to any other conclusion.

Aaron #61:

I truly wish that I had the opportunity to reply to your overnight responses. They are full of curious, and completely refutable, points.

As Mata noted, virtually all of the issues you have raised have been raised and refuted in prior discussions here at FA.

The only thing I have time to address at the moment is this:

their babies have a better survival rate

What’s the old saying about lies, damned lies, and statistics?

This is a perfect example of that.

Here is some reference material for you to bring you up to speed.

And here.

And here.

And here.

And here.

For now that’s all I have time for at the moment.

With that, I am off to work on the ongoing front porch restoration and then, this afternoon, a fishing trip with all three of the children and our dog.

Today my youngest son and I will remove the portion of the old ceiling that was water damaged and begin the process of replacing/restoring as necessary the inner structure.

Note to homeowners with old houses: Vinyl siding over the top of an existing ceiling it will conceal leaks and water damage to the point that you will never see the warning signs until it’s too late.

Then, instead of doing a roof repair to stop the leak and then a minor cosmetic repair on the ceiling you will find yourself on scaffolding pulling down the old rotted ceiling and starting over.

Such is the frustration and simultaneous joy of owning an old house.

Seriously. You believe this crap you write or are you just trying to get noticed. I guess it worked. You got noticed.

‘Indoctrinate’ kids? Really. You believe that? Do you live under a rock?

SHeesh…you need to get a life.

Looks like you’re trying to be noticed. I guess it worked.

‘Indoctrinate’ kids? Really. You believe that? Do you live under a rock?

When you have a celebrity rock star messiah for a president, then yes, I have concerns about the cult-like worship:

That said, I thought the speech was presidential, with a great message for school kids.

That said, I thought the speech was presidential, with a great message for school kids.

Tis a shame that everything Obie said today is the 180 degree polar opposite of his policies, his past, and what he really believes.

This is the same guy who wants the gov’t to run every aspect of our lives from cradle to grave and every detail of this country from corner to corner, coast to coast.

Yet he dares to speak of personal responsibility?

It’s all political with the Obamatons. They can’t see it because to them it’s natural.

Do we need to remind them what a stink Dems raised when the first President Bush made a speech without the instructions to obey?

P.S. Word, good vid… It’s all about Obama and the cult of personality. I bet YOUCANTBESERIOUS was the first in line to chant praise for the dear leader.

“Do we need to remind them what a stink Dems raised when the first President Bush made a speech without the instructions to obey?”

Nice job with the moral equivalency, Mike.

After thinking about it, you ARE right. I mean, look at this NOT politically charged part of Reagan’s speech:

But America’s world leadership goes well beyond the tide toward democracy. We also find that more countries than ever before are following America’s revolutionary economic message of free enterprise, low taxes, and open world trade. These days, whenever I see foreign leaders, they tell me about their plans for reducing taxes and other economic reforms that they’re using, copying what we have done here in our country. I wonder if they realize that this vision of economic freedom — the freedom to work, to create and produce, to own and use property without the interference of the state — was central to the American Revolution when the American colonists rebelled against a whole web of economic restrictions, taxes, and barriers to free trade. The message at the Boston Tea Party — have you studied yet in history about the Boston Tea Party, where, because of a tax, they went down and dumped the tea in the harbor? Well, that was America’s original tax revolt. And it was the fruits of our labor — belonged to us, and not to the state. And that truth is fundamental to both liberty and prosperity.

And now for the Liberal indoctrination of Obama:

“I hope you’ll all wash your hands a lot, and stay home from school when you don’t feel well, so we can keep people from getting the flu this fall and winter.”

I know, I know – It’s all about the curriculum, right. As I explained in post #34, if Obama is speaking on a completely neutral subject then the bias in the materials is neutral. If his speech is liberal, or conservative, then the material’s bias would be the same.

Even if the curriculum had left in the wording of writing the letters about “how they could help the president” it is still related to the speech itself. The students would be writing about how they could help solve problems – they can be conservative solutions or liberal solutions, it is up to the student. Nothing in Obama’s speech would push the students to one side or the other.

QUESTION
(Allow 1 hour 45 minutes)

Compare & contrast the following three speeches made by three Presidents to schoolchildren. Which of these, if any, goes further in promoting their political beliefs and attempt to ‘indoctrinate’ the audience?

SPEECH A

Thank you all, and welcome to the White House, and thank you for coming. I want to congratulate all of you from John A. Holmes High School in Edenton, North Carolina, on your great achievements this year and on your upcoming graduation. And a special greeting to Rob Boyce, the principal of this fine school.

As you know, my remarks are being broadcast live over radio and television to high school students throughout the country. While I was in Tokyo at the economic summit, I found myself thinking about all of you, and I decided that when I got back it’d be good to report to you — share some thoughts that I’ve been having about the future.

In general, conditions in our country are about as bright as this very bright afternoon. I was worrying when I put that line in there that it might start to rain, and I’d have to say something else. We’ve been working to take an economy that was in bad shape and get it moving and growing again; take our national defense and make it first-rate again after a long period of decline; and to restore reason, respect, and reality to our foreign policy. And I think it’s fair to say that we’ve made a good deal of progress.

Only 5 years ago our economy suffered from high inflation, high interest rates, mushrooming government spending, and steadily increasing unemployment. A lot of people couldn’t find jobs, and people on fixed incomes were finding it harder to buy the basics, such as food and shelter. Well, we got inflation down, interest rates down, and our economy created over 1\1/2\ million new jobs just last year alone. The poor are now increasingly able to dig themselves out of poverty, and that’s been good economic news.

The good news in defense is that our Armed Forces, which were suffering from neglect and low funding, have now made a comeback. Morale is up in the services, and the quality of our men and women in uniform has never been better — and I mean never. As a matter of fact, we have the highest percentage of high school graduates in uniform today than we’ve ever had in the history of our nation, even back when we had the compulsory draft. In addition, our nation has encouraged a more realistic sense of defense needs.

In foreign affairs we’ve kept our friends close and the lines of communication with our adversaries open. We’ve tried to give the world the sense that the United States has a coherent and logical foreign policy that reflects our respect for freedom and our opposition to tyranny.
The point is that all we’ve done has had, and will continue to have, a direct impact on your lives. And the fact is, it’s your future, not ours. And all that we’ve done, we’ve done with an eye toward how it would impact you. We want to make your future better, because tomorrow belongs to you. And since you’re the leaders of tomorrow, I wanted to talk to all of you as a friend about the things you’ll have to do to ensure a prosperous nation and a peaceful world. And I’m sure that peace and prosperity must be at the top of your agenda for the future.

You have some special responsibilities ahead of you — very important responsibilities. America is back, yes, but we still face major challenges in the world. And it’s your generation that will have to accept the primary responsibility for tackling these challenges. It’s important that you’re fit for the future and that you be all that you can be. So, go for it! In the area of education you have a responsibility to try to learn and care about scientific and intellectual inquiry. The world is an increasingly competitive place. And if we’re to compete, we’ll have to do it with brainpower — your brainpower. So, keep learning and hit those books.

We have to remain economically competitive, and that means being aware of two things: first, what makes economies tick, and second, what works in other societies. We’ve been trying very hard in Washington to make America even more economically fit by really overhauling our entire tax structure. When we came into office, the top personal tax rate that the Federal Government could put on your income was 70 percent. Now, you can understand, I think, that if you were getting up in those brackets — there were 14 different tax brackets, depending on the amount of money in each bracket you earned. And when you could look and say, “If I earn another dollar, I only get to keep 30 cents out of it,” you can imagine the lack of incentive there. Well, we lowered it to 50 percent, and the economy really took off. Now we’re trying to lower it yet again so that families can keep more of their money and so the national economy will be lean and trim and fit for the future.

And it’s your generation that will defend freedom from its adversaries. The biggest contribution you can make to that quest is to become a good citizen. Good citizenship is vitally important if democracies are to continue. Good citizenship means trying to understand the issues and great questions of your day. It also means voting. To vote is to take part in this grand experiment called democracy in America. It’s your right and your responsibility to take part. Good citizenship also might mean considering going into teaching as a profession. There’s a teacher shortage, as you may know. You could help ease the situation and give to others the advantages you’ve been given if you become a teacher yourself. And it’s also important that you stay in school. That diploma counts. And I just want to personally congratulate those who have overcome some disadvantage and who stuck it out and will graduate this year.

And part of being a good citizen, part of being fit for the future so that you can meet America’s agenda for the future, is seeing to it that you live your life with a clear mind and a steady intellect. And that means saying no to drugs. Nancy has traveled across the country talking to young people like you. And many of them have talked to her about the allure of drugs, about the drug culture, and the kind of peer pressure that you come under to experiment and try out drugs. But when you come right down to it, drugs are just a dead-end street. They have nothing to offer you. I think you also ought to remember we only get one set of machinery. If you wear this set out, you can’t take it and trade it in someplace for a used one or a new one. So, what you do now and early in your life decides how able you’re going to be to enjoy yourself when you get to be my age.

And I want to tell you, I’m enjoying myself. I’ve talked to young people from China to Europe to the islands in the Caribbean. And let me tell you, they’re incredibly bright and talented, and they’re going to create quite a future for themselves. And you can’t keep up or catch up if you allow your mind to be clouded by drugs.

Well, that’s more or less what I wanted to say to you today. I’ll be talking to many young people over the next few months, and I’ll be expanding on certain points and amplifying certain themes. But for today, before your questions, I just want to let you know that I have been thinking about you very much. You are a special generation, and you’re facing special challenges. And the biggest is to be ready for a future that will prove to be demanding and exciting. Soon, we’ll enter the 21st century, a time that’ll have more than its share of great wonders. The next 10 or 15 years may well be the most exciting and challenging in the history of man. There’s the continuing revolution in technology, the possibility of curing diseases that have stalked us from the caveman era. There’s the marvelous conquest of space, a rich frontier whose riches we’ve barely glimpsed. And there’s the struggle between the democracies and those countries which are not democratic.

All of these possibilities bring with them questions. And it’s your generation that will have to answer them. That makes you all very important, indeed. You have much before you. And all I can say is that you’ve begun brilliantly. Continue to pursue excellence. Be proud of your country and its heritage, and be proud of yourselves, as we are proud of all of you.

SPEECH B

Thank you, Ms. Mostoller, and thanks for allowing me to visit your classroom to talk to you and all these students, and millions more in classrooms all across the country.

You know, long before I became President I was a parent. I remember the times that my kids came up with a really tough question or a difficult decision. I tried my best never to shut them down with a quick “no.” I would simply say those three magic words that made that problem disappear: “Ask your Mother.”

Let me tell you why I’ve made the trip up from the White House to Alice Deal Junior High. I’m not here to teach a lesson. You already have a very good teacher. I’m not here to tell you what to do or what to think. Maybe you’re accustomed to adults talking about you and at you; well, today, I’m here to talk to you and challenge you. Education matters, and what you do today, and what you don’t do can change your future.

Every day, we hear more bad news about our schools. Maybe you saw today’s headline, I don’t know if you had a chance to look at it, about the release of the new National Goals Report. Get the camera to come in and take a look at this for a moment. In math, for instance, this national report card shows that, nationwide, five of six eighth graders don’t know the math they need to move up to the ninth grade.

In spite of troubling statistics like this one, I don’t see this report, however, as just bad news, and I’ll tell you why. This report tells us a lot about what you know and what you don’t know. It gives us something to build on. It shows us our strengths and the weaknesses that we’ve go to correct. It sets forth a challenge to all of us: Work harder, learn more, revolutionize American education.

I know you’ve heard about stanines and percentiles, surveys and statistics, but here’s what all that fancy talk really means: Education means the difference between a good future and a lousy one. Reports don’t give us the right to make excuses. Our scores will tell us where we are and where we need to go.

I mentioned earlier the bad news we hear about schools today. But what we don’t hear enough about are the success stories. You know, all over America, thousands of schools do succeed, even against tough odds, even against all odds. Kids from all over the District of Columbia petition to get into Alice Deal School here because parents know this school works. It works because of teachers like the one standing over here, Ms. Mostoller, who decided at the age of 25 — maybe you all know this, but a lot of people around the country don’t — she decided at the age of 25 that she wanted to teach. She was standing in a supermarket checkout line when she saw a magazine ad about college. She went back to school, worked her way through in 7 years, waiting tables to pay tuition. She made it, and so can you.

This school here works because of students like the ones with me today, students like Rachel Rusch — where’s Rachel? Right there, okay — a member of Alice Deal’s award-winning “Math Counts” team. Rachel, you tell me if I’m wrong, but you and six other students in this class alone have taken part in the Johns Hopkins Talent Search. They took the college entrance exams on an experimental basis last year as seventh graders. Even in junior high, some of them scored well enough to get into college right now. So, let’s just put it on the line. You’ve got the brains. Now, put them to work — certainly, not for me, but for you.

Progress starts when we ask more of ourselves, our schools and, yes, you, our students. We made a start nationally now by setting six National Education Goals to meet the challenges of the 21st century. By the year 2000, at least 9 in every 10 students should graduate from high school. We should be first in the world in math and science. We need to regularly test student’s abilities. Every American child should start school ready to learn; every American adult should be literate; and every American school should be safe and drug-free. Reaching those goals is the aim of a strategy that we call America 2000, a crusade for excellence in American education, school by school, community by community.

But what does all this mean, you might say, what is he doing, what does this all mean for the students right here in this room? Fast-forward — 5 years from now. Unless things change, between now and 1996 as many as one in four of today’s eighth graders will not graduate with their class. In some cities, the dropout rate is twice that high or higher. Imagine: Out of a total of nearly 3 million of your fellow classmates nationwide, an army of more than half a million dropouts.

I ask every student watching today: Look around you. Count four students. Start with yourself. No one dreams of becoming a dropout, but far too many do. Which one of you won’t make it through school?

The fact is, every one of you can. Let’s make a pact then right here. Let’s work to see that 5 years from now, you and your friends will be more than sad statistics. Give yourself a decent shot at your dreams. Stay in school. Get that diploma.

Let’s go back to the future. In the fall of 1996, 5 years from now, nearly half of today’s eighth graders who get their diplomas will enter the working world. More than half the graduates will stay in school and become the college class of the year 2000.

The question each student watching today should ask is: Where will I be, where will I be 5 years from now? Will I be holding down a good job and maybe working toward a better one, or will I be out of school and out of work? Will I be on a college campus, or out running the streets?
Think about that tonight when you’re at a kitchen table doing some homework; while your parents are meeting your teachers like so many millions do this year at back-to-school nights all across our great country.

I’m asking you to put two and two together: Make the connection between the homework you do tonight, the test you take tomorrow, and where you’ll be 5, 15, even 50 years from now. You see, the real world doesn’t begin somewhere else, some time way down there in the distant future. The real world starts right here. What you do here will have consequences for your whole lives.

Let me tell you something, many of you may find very hard to believe this. You’re in control. You’re thinking: How can the President say that about kids like us when we don’t even have our driver’s license? But think about it, and you’ll see what I mean.

Think about drugs. You see films. You hear police experts and tough speakers from the outside. You get stern lectures from everyone: movie stars, athletes, teachers, parents, friends. But you know and I know that all the drug prevention programs, all the pledges, all the preaching in the world won’t pull you through that critical moment when someone offers drugs. At that moment, everything comes down to you. Yes or no, you’ve got to choose, and the answer will change your life. Your parents won’t make the decision. Your teachers won’t make the decision. Your friends won’t make the decision. It’s up to you. It takes guts to take control.

A sound body and a sound mind, they go together, as my friend, and he is a friend, Arnold Schwarzenegger says. He’s crossing the Nation talking with students about the importance of fitness. And real fitness means no drugs.

Studies show a decline in drug use, and that’s good, that’s encouraging, I think. And every student who draws the line against drugs really deserves credit for that. But drugs and violence continue to threaten every school, every small town and suburb in America. And as students, you have a right to be physically safe at school. You should never have to worry that a quarrel in the hallway will lead to gunfire in the playground. Fear should never follow you into the classroom.

If you have to take the long way home after school so you don’t cross paths with the gang hanging on the corner, if outsiders roam the halls of your school hassling kids, hassling students, you must take control. Go to your teacher, or go to your principal, or go to your parents, as difficult as it may be, go to the school board if you have to. Demand discipline. If good people chicken out, bad people take control. Together, we can — I really believe this — we can drive the drugs and guns and senseless violence out of our schools.

When it comes to your own education, what I’m saying is take control. Don’t say school is boring and blame it on your teachers. Make your teachers work hard. Tell them you want a first-class education. Tell them that you’re here to learn.

Block out the kids who think it’s not cool to be smart. I can’t understand for the life of me what’s so great about being stupid. If someone goofs off today, are they cool? Are they still cool years from now when they’re stuck in a dead-end job? Don’t let peer pressure stand between you and your dreams.

Take control — challenge yourself. Only you know how hard you work. Maybe you can fake, maybe, just maybe you can fake your way into a job, but you won’t keep it for long if you don’t have the know-how to get the job done. Maybe you can cram the week before that marking period ends, and turn that C into a B. But you can’t con your way past the SAT and into college. If you don’t work hard, who gets hurt? If you cheat, who pays the price? If you cut corners, if you hunt for the easy A, who comes up short? Easy answer to that one: You do.

You’re in control, but you are not alone. People want you to succeed. They want to help you succeed. Here at Deal, teachers like your outstanding teacher standing here with us today, Ms. Mostoller, from your principal, Mr. Moss, to your custodian, Mr. Francis. Right now in classrooms across this country, in the communities you call home, when things get tough, when answers are hard to come by, there’s a teacher, a parent, a friend or family member ready to help you. They want to see you make it.

If you take school seriously, you won’t have to settle for a job, just any job. You’ll have a career. If you make it your business to learn, one day you’ll be a better parent. You may not think about it now, but one day your children will want to look up at you and say, “I’ve got the smartest Mom and Dad in the world.” Don’t disappoint them.

Let me leave you with a simple message: Every time you walk through that classroom door, make it your mission to get a good education. Don’t do it just because your parents, or even the President, tells you. Do it for yourselves. Do it for your future. And while you’re at it, help a little brother or sister to learn, or maybe even Mom or Dad. Let me know how you’re doing. Write me a letter — and I’m serious about this one — write me a letter about ways you can help us achieve our goals. I think you know the address.

Now we’re going to walk over to the school auditorium to say hello to the rest of the student body. To all the students across the country who watched us here in this great classroom today, may I simply say thank you and good luck to you this school year.
And now, Ms. Mostoller, if you’ll kindly lead the way. Thank you all very much. Nice to be with you.

SPEECH C

The President: Hello everyone – how’s everybody doing today? I’m here with students at Wakefield High School in Arlington, Virginia. And we’ve got students tuning in from all across America, kindergarten through twelfth grade. I’m glad you all could join us today.
I know that for many of you, today is the first day of school. And for those of you in kindergarten, or starting middle or high school, it’s your first day in a new school, so it’s understandable if you’re a little nervous. I imagine there are some seniors out there who are feeling pretty good right now, with just one more year to go. And no matter what grade you’re in, some of you are probably wishing it were still summer, and you could’ve stayed in bed just a little longer this morning.

I know that feeling. When I was young, my family lived in Indonesia for a few years, and my mother didn’t have the money to send me where all the American kids went to school. So she decided to teach me extra lessons herself, Monday through Friday – at 4:30 in the morning.
Now I wasn’t too happy about getting up that early. A lot of times, I’d fall asleep right there at the kitchen table. But whenever I’d complain, my mother would just give me one of those looks and say, “This is no picnic for me either, buster.”

So I know some of you are still adjusting to being back at school. But I’m here today because I have something important to discuss with you. I’m here because I want to talk with you about your education and what’s expected of all of you in this new school year.

Now I’ve given a lot of speeches about education. And I’ve talked a lot about responsibility.
I’ve talked about your teachers’ responsibility for inspiring you, and pushing you to learn.
I’ve talked about your parents’ responsibility for making sure you stay on track, and get your homework done, and don’t spend every waking hour in front of the TV or with that Xbox.
I’ve talked a lot about your government’s responsibility for setting high standards, supporting teachers and principals, and turning around schools that aren’t working where students aren’t getting the opportunities they deserve.

But at the end of the day, we can have the most dedicated teachers, the most supportive parents, and the best schools in the world – and none of it will matter unless all of you fulfill your responsibilities. Unless you show up to those schools; pay attention to those teachers; listen to your parents, grandparents and other adults; and put in the hard work it takes to succeed.
And that’s what I want to focus on today: the responsibility each of you has for your education. I want to start with the responsibility you have to yourself.

Every single one of you has something you’re good at. Every single one of you has something to offer. And you have a responsibility to yourself to discover what that is. That’s the opportunity an education can provide.

Maybe you could be a good writer – maybe even good enough to write a book or articles in a newspaper – but you might not know it until you write a paper for your English class. Maybe you could be an innovator or an inventor – maybe even good enough to come up with the next iPhone or a new medicine or vaccine – but you might not know it until you do a project for your science class. Maybe you could be a mayor or a Senator or a Supreme Court Justice, but you might not know that until you join student government or the debate team.

And no matter what you want to do with your life – I guarantee that you’ll need an education to do it. You want to be a doctor, or a teacher, or a police officer? You want to be a nurse or an architect, a lawyer or a member of our military? You’re going to need a good education for every single one of those careers. You can’t drop out of school and just drop into a good job. You’ve got to work for it and train for it and learn for it.

And this isn’t just important for your own life and your own future. What you make of your education will decide nothing less than the future of this country. What you’re learning in school today will determine whether we as a nation can meet our greatest challenges in the future.
You’ll need the knowledge and problem-solving skills you learn in science and math to cure diseases like cancer and AIDS, and to develop new energy technologies and protect our environment. You’ll need the insights and critical thinking skills you gain in history and social studies to fight poverty and homelessness, crime and discrimination, and make our nation more fair and more free. You’ll need the creativity and ingenuity you develop in all your classes to build new companies that will create new jobs and boost our economy.

We need every single one of you to develop your talents, skills and intellect so you can help solve our most difficult problems. If you don’t do that – if you quit on school – you’re not just quitting on yourself, you’re quitting on your country.

Now I know it’s not always easy to do well in school. I know a lot of you have challenges in your lives right now that can make it hard to focus on your schoolwork.

I get it. I know what that’s like. My father left my family when I was two years old, and I was raised by a single mother who struggled at times to pay the bills and wasn’t always able to give us things the other kids had. There were times when I missed having a father in my life. There were times when I was lonely and felt like I didn’t fit in.

So I wasn’t always as focused as I should have been. I did some things I’m not proud of, and got in more trouble than I should have. And my life could have easily taken a turn for the worse.
But I was fortunate. I got a lot of second chances and had the opportunity to go to college, and law school, and follow my dreams. My wife, our First Lady Michelle Obama, has a similar story. Neither of her parents had gone to college, and they didn’t have much. But they worked hard, and she worked hard, so that she could go to the best schools in this country.

Some of you might not have those advantages. Maybe you don’t have adults in your life who give you the support that you need. Maybe someone in your family has lost their job, and there’s not enough money to go around. Maybe you live in a neighborhood where you don’t feel safe, or have friends who are pressuring you to do things you know aren’t right.

But at the end of the day, the circumstances of your life – what you look like, where you come from, how much money you have, what you’ve got going on at home – that’s no excuse for neglecting your homework or having a bad attitude. That’s no excuse for talking back to your teacher, or cutting class, or dropping out of school. That’s no excuse for not trying.

Where you are right now doesn’t have to determine where you’ll end up. No one’s written your destiny for you. Here in America, you write your own destiny. You make your own future.
That’s what young people like you are doing every day, all across America.

Young people like Jazmin Perez, from Roma, Texas. Jazmin didn’t speak English when she first started school. Hardly anyone in her hometown went to college, and neither of her parents had gone either. But she worked hard, earned good grades, got a scholarship to Brown University, and is now in graduate school, studying public health, on her way to being Dr. Jazmin Perez.
I’m thinking about Andoni Schultz, from Los Altos, California, who’s fought brain cancer since he was three. He’s endured all sorts of treatments and surgeries, one of which affected his memory, so it took him much longer – hundreds of extra hours – to do his schoolwork. But he never fell behind, and he’s headed to college this fall.

And then there’s Shantell Steve, from my hometown of Chicago, Illinois. Even when bouncing from foster home to foster home in the toughest neighborhoods, she managed to get a job at a local health center; start a program to keep young people out of gangs; and she’s on track to graduate high school with honors and go on to college.

Jazmin, Andoni and Shantell aren’t any different from any of you. They faced challenges in their lives just like you do. But they refused to give up. They chose to take responsibility for their education and set goals for themselves. And I expect all of you to do the same.

That’s why today, I’m calling on each of you to set your own goals for your education – and to do everything you can to meet them. Your goal can be something as simple as doing all your homework, paying attention in class, or spending time each day reading a book. Maybe you’ll decide to get involved in an extracurricular activity, or volunteer in your community. Maybe you’ll decide to stand up for kids who are being teased or bullied because of who they are or how they look, because you believe, like I do, that all kids deserve a safe environment to study and learn. Maybe you’ll decide to take better care of yourself so you can be more ready to learn. And along those lines, I hope you’ll all wash your hands a lot, and stay home from school when you don’t feel well, so we can keep people from getting the flu this fall and winter.

Whatever you resolve to do, I want you to commit to it. I want you to really work at it.
I know that sometimes, you get the sense from TV that you can be rich and successful without any hard work — that your ticket to success is through rapping or basketball or being a reality TV star, when chances are, you’re not going to be any of those things.

But the truth is, being successful is hard. You won’t love every subject you study. You won’t click with every teacher. Not every homework assignment will seem completely relevant to your life right this minute. And you won’t necessarily succeed at everything the first time you try.
That’s OK. Some of the most successful people in the world are the ones who’ve had the most failures. JK Rowling’s first Harry Potter book was rejected twelve times before it was finally published. Michael Jordan was cut from his high school basketball team, and he lost hundreds of games and missed thousands of shots during his career. But he once said, “I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed.”

These people succeeded because they understand that you can’t let your failures define you – you have to let them teach you. You have to let them show you what to do differently next time. If you get in trouble, that doesn’t mean you’re a troublemaker, it means you need to try harder to behave. If you get a bad grade, that doesn’t mean you’re stupid, it just means you need to spend more time studying.

No one’s born being good at things, you become good at things through hard work. You’re not a varsity athlete the first time you play a new sport. You don’t hit every note the first time you sing a song. You’ve got to practice. It’s the same with your schoolwork. You might have to do a math problem a few times before you get it right, or read something a few times before you understand it, or do a few drafts of a paper before it’s good enough to hand in.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Don’t be afraid to ask for help when you need it. I do that every day. Asking for help isn’t a sign of weakness, it’s a sign of strength. It shows you have the courage to admit when you don’t know something, and to learn something new. So find an adult you trust – a parent, grandparent or teacher; a coach or counselor – and ask them to help you stay on track to meet your goals.

And even when you’re struggling, even when you’re discouraged, and you feel like other people have given up on you – don’t ever give up on yourself. Because when you give up on yourself, you give up on your country.

The story of America isn’t about people who quit when things got tough. It’s about people who kept going, who tried harder, who loved their country too much to do anything less than their best.

It’s the story of students who sat where you sit 250 years ago, and went on to wage a revolution and found this nation. Students who sat where you sit 75 years ago who overcame a Depression and won a world war; who fought for civil rights and put a man on the moon. Students who sat where you sit 20 years ago who founded Google, Twitter and Facebook and changed the way we communicate with each other.

So today, I want to ask you, what’s your contribution going to be? What problems are you going to solve? What discoveries will you make? What will a president who comes here in twenty or fifty or one hundred years say about what all of you did for this country?

Your families, your teachers, and I are doing everything we can to make sure you have the education you need to answer these questions. I’m working hard to fix up your classrooms and get you the books, equipment and computers you need to learn. But you’ve got to do your part too. So I expect you to get serious this year. I expect you to put your best effort into everything you do. I expect great things from each of you. So don’t let us down – don’t let your family or your country or yourself down. Make us all proud. I know you can do it.

Thank you, God bless you, and God bless America.

Gaffa: You seem to be suffering from the same intellectual disorder that afflicts Aaron. Once again, THIS ISN”T ABOUT THE SPEECH!

How many times have I tried to make that clear?

Oh, and just in case you missed it, this was the headline in the Wash Post after Bush’s 1991 speech:

Funding of Bush Speech Draws Fire; Democrat Calls Education Broadcast Paid Political Advertising’

Democrats investigated the Bush ’41’ Administration for what they called blatant political misuse of the Education Dept.

Something tells me the Wash Post and Dems won’t be investigating Obama.

After reading the speeches in their entirety, I think that it’s obvious which one is the most politically motivated.

I am not surprised that Bush’s speech was so good. For all the criticism that he got for his speaking skills and all credit that Reagan got for being a great communicator, I can’t even stomach listening to Reagan, but Bush I like to listen too. Bush’s speech is more “inspiring” while I think Obama’s speech is meant more to focus on the specifics of what you need to do to succeed in school.

Mike – Answer this question honestly. If Bush had sent home the exact same curriculum as Obama, would you have a problem with it? As I have stated before, I think the Democrats were wrong to criticize Bush – he gave a great address and I only wish that we had worked harder to make the things that he talked about come true.

I guess the questions that I’m not hearing an answer to are:

How is the curriculum “liberal indoctrination” if the speech does not carry bias of any kind?

If students are asked to write letters to Obama or write quotes from the speech on the wall how is that liberal indoctrination if the subjects they are writing about do not have bias?

You can even base our answers on the original transcript of the curriculum.

So far – you have not shown HOW the curriculum is “liberal indoctrination.” All of the examples that you state in the original post only apply if the Speech carries some kind of bias.

After Bush 41 spoke, Congresswoman Pat Schroeder D-Colorado, called for Congressional investigations…didn’t hear any calls for investigations on Obama’s “schoochildren address.” So who is more over-reactionary?

Aaron: Bush didn’t send out a lesson plan because it’s not legal for the Dept. of Ed to do so.

But once again, you are making excuses for Obama.

And thanks American Voter for reminding me that Dems raised a stink about Bush’s speech AFTER he gave it. It was a very neutral speech and they jumped all over him for using students as props and held congressional hearings on the matter.

Perhaps Aaron would like to suggest that Dems hold hearings on Obama’s speech?

Aaron: I guess the questions that I’m not hearing an answer to are:

How is the curriculum “liberal indoctrination” if the speech does not carry bias of any kind?

If students are asked to write letters to Obama or write quotes from the speech on the wall how is that liberal indoctrination if the subjects they are writing about do not have bias?

You can even base our answers on the original transcript of the curriculum.

So far – you have not shown HOW the curriculum is “liberal indoctrination.” All of the examples that you state in the original post only apply if the Speech carries some kind of bias.

Perhaps you aren’t hearing because you aren’t comprehending the definition of “curriculum”, Aaron. You mistakenly force link “the speech” to “the curriculum” as provided by the Dept of Ed in order to give it your stamp of approval. Let’s see if we can get you to wrap your mind around a different train of thought.

Curriculum is the course or exercises, or set of courses/exercises as presented by an educational institution. i.e. Dickens “Great Expectations” is not “curriculum. It is a novel by a great writer that (used to be) part of a list of required reading in many a HS. The curriculum would be what the teachers decided as student exercises to analyze that required reading.

Could teachers turn Dickens into indoctrination by their choice of exercises? Absolutely. Does this mean Dickens, himself, was engaging in indoctrination post-mortem? Nope… Dickens didn’t include lesson plans with his published novel.

Now I hesitate to compare Obama’s lackluster speech to Dickens… but as an base analogy, his speech is the “novel” or source to be analyzed in the student exercises. The DOE’s suggested *curriculum* was the offensive part (other than Obama’s persistent “I” and “me” as a mainstay of most his oratories).

But wait… Obama doesn’t come out with clean hands simply because his speech wasn’t indoctrination. His guilt in an obvious agenda (with their first attempt) is because the “curriculum” accompanying his speech comes from his own appointed Dept of Ed. (or, in the Dickens analogy, his novel published were it published with suggested curriculum/exercises)

He must take responsibility for their chosen “indoctrination” – not because of his speech content – but because the curriculum provided came from *his* selection of education officials.

Mike, you still did not answer the question. Are you saying that ANYTHING that Obama released as curriculum is guilty of bias, no matter what it says?

I completely understand difference between the speech and the curriculum. What I’m trying to get you to answer are the questions I posed in my last post. YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED THEM IN ANY WAY.

You say “Could teachers turn Dickens into indoctrination by their choice of exercises? Absolutely.” Okay, I get that, you’ve already said that. What you still do not show is how Obama does that. How does the curriculum turn his speech into liberal indoctrination. I do see, how, in theory that a curriculum could be biased, but you have failed to give any example of THIS curriculum being biased. Again, ALL OF THE EXAMPLES YOU GIVE ARE DEPENDENT ON THE SPEECH BEING BIASED.

Are you so incomprehensibly stupid that you cannot see how if students are asked to “write down key ideas or phrases that are important in the speech that it matters WHAT THE SPEECH IS ABOUT? Is your brain not capable of understanding that if students are going to answer the question “what is the president asking me to do?” THAT IT ACTUALLY MATTERS WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS ASKING THEM TO DO? So…….what in the curriculum is liberal indoctrination regardless of what the speech is about. Please, Please, Mike, you’ve got to tell me you understand this question!

I mean by your line of reasoning if students were asked to ponder a set of goals laid out in a book and write about how they could accomplish those things, it wouldn’t matter if the book was called “Let’s All Kill Babies” or “Strategies to Helping Your Grandmother.”

Obviously there is a difference between the curriculum and the speech – but to deny that the two are linked is just plain ignorant.

Sorry, Post #78 should be addressed to Mata, not Mike

But.. Mike, did you do your reading?

Aaron – post #74 “As I have stated before, I think the Democrats were wrong to criticize Bush – he gave a great address and I only wish that we had worked harder to make the things that he talked about come true.”

Mike – post #76 “Perhaps Aaron would like to suggest that Dems hold hearings on Obama’s speech?”

Not to rehash an old subject, but is it safe to assume that to say that “global warming is a myth” is a misrepresentation of the science. Can you really say that the 2.5% of scientists that agree with you are right, but the 97.5% that agree with me are just propagating a myth?

But, back to the Healthcare debate.

Mata and Aye – I’ll give you the point on infant mortality rate, but I would be interested to see any statistics of how rates in this country vary based on socioeconomic status, even when adjusted for race, age, risk factors, etc. I’m not sure if those stats exist.

I’m a bit troubled by the statement “The degree of difference from the US to the lowest compared here, Germany, is 2.27 babies, out of every 1000 babies born. Not exactly earthshaking evidence of socialized medicine’s superiority.” I hope that you do not mean that because 2.27 is a small number it is insignificant. To the family that loses a baby 1 is the only number that matters.

You also cite a lot of anecdotal evidence “Certainly in the US, we are more affluent, and people engage in more risky entertainment. Does this number include deaths for car accidents, skiing and sporting accidents, etal? Again, our lifestyle for not only risky entertaining sports, but also our less than healthy eating habits (i.e. obesity and fast foods as mentioned with mothers/babies above), may play a huge factor into those rates.”

I completely agree with you about diet and fast food. The #1 thing America can do to lower health care costs is get off our fat asses and stop having Del Taco for lunch. The affluence part I’m not so sure about, as wealthy people have a higher life expectancy, but the gap is not huge.

As for Singapore – I say, let’s adopt a Singapore style system here. I’m totally fine with that. I thought though that you were constitutionally opposed to a national health policy. Singapore offers a catastrophic policy to every citizen. At the very least that is what we need here. I am lucky in that I had good health insurance when my Wife was injured, but even so we had close to $100,000 of un-reimbursed expenses. That is mostly for in-home care, which no private insurance or Medicare covers and for necessary equipment that is not covered. We only survived financially because of numerous generous donations from friends, but not everybody has that kind of support-and they shouldn’t need too.

Even through all of the posts that I read, though, I still come to the conclusion that at best we have similar outcomes, but we spend double or more what other countries spend. What I always hear from conservatives is “yes we should do something, but just not that.” Or “we need to fix it, but I don’t think its the government’s job to do so.” What do you think we should do not just about costs, but about the millions that have no insurance whatsoever, the nearly 2/3 of bankruptcies that have a medical cause, and the people that cannot get coverage because of a pre-existing condition?

http://pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/Bankruptcy-2009.pdf

You can dismiss of all of these situations as “emotional heartbreaking stories and touchy feely rhetoric” if you want too – but you would simply be hiding the fact that you do not have answers for these situations. They are real and they exist, no matter how much you tell yourself they do not. You say that seniors don’t have a choice about Medicare – True. But what kind of choices would they have without Medicare? Is there any country in the world you can point to that does not cover it’s seniors through a government plan that has successful outcomes?

The reality of your small, narrow-minded kind of thinking is that you do not have answers, only criticism. You have not addressed any of the concerns that I listed in post #64. You ignore the people in my situation by hiding behind your ideology. Does it cost a lot of money to cover everyone? Yes. But we are already paying that high cost and we still leave people out. What does that say about the morality of our society. You say that the founding fathers would be sickened by the expansion of government today. Maybe, but I can tell you this for sure: If they were to see your blind disregard for your brothers, your sisters, your neighbors, and your fellow countrymen, and if they knew that in the greatest, most powerful nation on earth that we stood idle while people’s and family’s fortunes were flushed down the drain and lives were lost or ruined because of medical bills, THEY WOULD BE SICKENED TOO.

And they would be even more sickened that you invoked their names to justify it.

I already know what you are going to say…its just a bunch of Liberal sob stories and emotional rhetoric. Tell that to the ones that are going through it. Of course, maybe you slough these kind of situations off because you just don’t give a damn.

Aaron… INRE “mortality rates”….whoa there, bucko…. I’ve not been chatting with you about mortality rates. So you can leave me out of that bit.

Even through all of the posts that I read, though, I still come to the conclusion that at best we have similar outcomes, but we spend double or more what other countries spend. What I always hear from conservatives is “yes we should do something, but just not that.” Or “we need to fix it, but I don’t think its the government’s job to do so.” What do you think we should do not just about costs, but about the millions that have no insurance whatsoever, the nearly 2/3 of bankruptcies that have a medical cause, and the people that cannot get coverage because of a pre-existing condition?

Well, now… if you’d spend a bit of time on my health care posts in the archives (just select health care category and look for my author posts), you just might learn something.

ala I most certainly have given solutions that actually address the problem of spending so much per person. Meaning malpractice/tort reform, controlling drug costs by allowing providers to negotiate deals for supplies, streamlining the bureaucracy for both private and Medicare because they… like malpractice suits… lead to unnecessary tests and costs, allowing for more individual and business “groups” (because, Aaron, no group plan can deny pre’existing coveage to anyone for longer than a 12 month exempt period… didn’t know that, did you?), and to allow those on Medicare to opt out and obtain private insurance without having to waive their Social Security retirement checks… which would save Medicare approx $1.5 billion annually if even only 1% of the wealthier over 65 opted out. That would be the Hall v Sebelius lawsuit that you also did not read about.

All of these are things that cost the taxpayer zip, nada. Can actually allow the providers to function as profit businesses and not non-profit. Instead, with your deficient knowledge in the costs of Medicare due to government bureaucracy and malpractice, and the fact that the only thing that keeps providers still in business is the overcharging the private insurers (to make up for the underpayment of Medicare service), you come up with touchy feely rhetoric instead of actual solutions…. i.e. give it to the government and let them do it.

Look around, Aaron. The government is sucking up Medicare taxes from you and every other taxpayer’s paycheck… as well as the retirees. Think they’ve got that money in a little box marked “Aaron’s Medicare”? Nope… they’re using it to support the 12-15% of the population on Medicare now. Even underpaying the medical providers, with the way govt has it structured and torts, they are STILL bankrupt. Yeah… let’s create “New Age Medicare for the under 65 and think it’ll all work out just dandy…

Can you possibly be this math challenged?

So your comment that “the reality of your kind of thinking is that you do not have answers, only criticism” is based sheerly on your extreme laziness to explore our forum archives and review suggestions we’ve made. Therefore it constitutes nothing but a partisan talking point, aka a lie.

I suggest that if you want to attend the gun fight, check your knife at the saloon door.

BTW, a’hole… INRE this:

Aaron: I already know what you are going to say…its just a bunch of Liberal sob stories and emotional rhetoric. Tell that to the ones that are going through it. Of course, maybe you slough these kind of situations off because you just don’t give a damn.

Considering my age, you whippersnapper, most people I know.. including my 85 yr old mother and 94 yr old father, are on Medicare. And quite frankly, Obama’care would have killed them both years ago by denial of coverage.. .which is bout to happen with his upcoming cuts. What you know about Medicare coverage would maybe cover a pin head.

Aaron: Weren’t you the one who accused some of us of just flinging insults instead of facts?

So, how do you justify saying: “Mike, you prove yourself to be a moron again….You just can’t keep yourself from looking like the joke that you are “ in a comment that you later edited?

Thanks for relieving me of ANY burden I might have to maintain a civil discussion with you.

Clearly, any attempt at that would be a waste of time.

You have FLOODED this thread and others with THOUSANDS OF WORDS and dare to demand we read and recall every single one?

What kind of pompous, self-important ass are you?

You are a big waste of time all the way around.

Frankly, I don’t take you seriously at all. You’re the joke here.

If you don’t discover some manners real quick you will find your comments are deleted.

Yes, Mike I edited that comment because after I posted it I felt is was over the line. How about you?

This isn’t the first time Aaron. It better be the last.

Other than the last comment, which I edited, I have not written anything that is outside of the tone that others are using here. I’m not the one writing “F off you mental case.” (not that you are either.)

In keeping with the civility idea, Is it Okay to call people “a’holes” now?

Mata – I understand that you have offered solutions to cutting costs. I am not necessarily opposed to them.

What about offering a catastrophic policy to everyone, like Singapore?

I am under the impression that you feel that Medicare or government run insurance is not constitutional, is this not the case?

What about the fact that the majority of medical bankruptcies are for people with insurance? How can we realistically keep the insurance companies honest without a competitive government plan.

As to your comment about medicare knowledge – As I have mentioned before, My wife is a quadriplegic. The thing that you realize when you are dealing with an uncommon condition is that most people don’t know jack about your needs and how the system handles them. Unless you are in that kind of a situation, you do not have the kind of first had knowledge I have, nor I you. We have been constantly dealing with paperwork and fighting to get coverage for the past 4 years because medicare deals all the time with the elderly so they are used to it, but not so with the severely disabled.

When you accuse me of not “caring” about most of my friends and family, you’re an a’hole. It fits. No apologies from me. Perhaps you should rethink your own rhetoric if you don’t like the response.

Again, if you READ thru the damn archives, you’d also know that suggesting offering insurance in separate tiers has also come up… ala a tax incentive medical savings account for everyone so they pay normal doctor visits and misc out of pocket (keeping costs down), a second tier for less catastrophic events (broken legs, minor surgeries, etc) and a third tier for the catastrophic.

No, I don’t think Medicare, Social Security or other welfare programs are Constitutional. However unless these are challenged via our court system by the very wealthy who can take it thru the appellate courts to SCOTUS, we’re stuck with it. Plus that, I’ve already been had/robbed for cash out of my paychecks for over 40 years. Give me my money back, and I’ll be happy to buy private insurance. Other than that, I want my cash back from social security and medicare because that’s the only way I’ll ever see it… if at all.

Buying into the “evil insurance providers” talking point again, I see. Did you know that your insurer has to pay 35-41% OVER costs of any procedures and services because government underpays for Medicare? Boy… making a killing buying products and services for almost one and a half times costs… duh

So I take it you and your wife are not thrilled with your government services…. this makes your previous arguments even more absurd, Aaron. You think it’s going to get better? Or have you considered that what you pine for is going to cut down on your coverage and reimbursements because the government will not view your wife via productive years and deny coverage for lack of cash. ala dealing with five patients having a heart attack, and only one defibrillator on hand. That results in eenie, meenie, minie moe decisions…

Waiting on post #78 – between all of you, can you answer my questions?

Sorry Aaron. You’ve wasted enough of my time.

Between all the people writing in opposition to me – You have not been able to address my concerns in post #64, answered questions about a national catastrophic plan, or addressed the fact that the vast majority of scientists support my position on global warming. You have made assumptions about my knowledge of the medical systems without even considering the fact that you know not what I do about having a family member with a sever injury, what is covered in that situation, and having large, unpaid medical bills. I have tried fervently to address and clearly state my points, yet you ignore the ones that you cannot answer. I clearly state that I know that you have addressed costs, Mata, but then that is what you choose to write about? How about answering the unanswered questions in post #78?

Take the transcrips of these posts to anyone outside of your right wing fringe world and ask them what they think. Do you stand up for your friends writing “F off” and “a’hole” but reprimand me for using the word “moron.” That is what makes YOU hypocrites – if you cannot see that, I’m sorry that you have so fooled yourself about who you really are.

aaron: Are you so incomprehensibly stupid that you cannot see how if students are asked to “write down key ideas or phrases that are important in the speech that it matters WHAT THE SPEECH IS ABOUT? Is your brain not capable of understanding that if students are going to answer the question “what is the president asking me to do?” THAT IT ACTUALLY MATTERS WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS ASKING THEM TO DO? So…….what in the curriculum is liberal indoctrination regardless of what the speech is about. Please, Please, Mike, you’ve got to tell me you understand this question!

First of all, Aaron, most of this argument becomes moot because the Obama admin/Dept of Ed realized that they were idiots… and CHANGED the curriculum.

But since you bring up “incomprehensibly stupid”… which you are obviously a prime example with a deflect and ignore strategy… are you so incomprehensibly stupid as to realize that the bone of contention was not any of those items you mentioned. But was, in fact, the exercise that the student “write a letter to themselves on how they can help the President/him”…. a politician. And that the letters would be collected by the teacher, and redistributed at a later date to “hold the student accountable” for that letter and promise to “help the President/him”.

Obviously, since even the DOE was called on the carpet for such blatant politician worship, they changed it to writing letters to themselves about their goals for themselves… and not Obama.

a’hole still fits, I see

BTW, Aaron.. your battle about “moron” is with Mike’sA. We are all different people, and you may want to get rid of your “group think” and natural instincts to lump everyone in the class warfare in which your party regularly engages.

I’m not reprimanding you for your choice of words. You can say what you want, and I will respond in kind.

Mata: The point isn’t moot as the lesson instructions had already gone out to 14,000 schools by email. The Dept. of Education later changed the wording on their web site, but there is nothing to indicate they sent a revised copy to the schools.

Also, if a teacher finds the original instructions in her email she may feel empowered to proceed even if later changes are issued.

Liberal indoctrination runs rampant through the public schools. The eyewitness report from teacher Adrienne Ross documents that.

aaron: Obviously there is a difference between the curriculum and the speech – but to deny that the two are linked is just plain ignorant.

Read again… s-l-o-w-l-y… Aaron. I’ll make it easy for you and repeat it…

MataHarley: But wait… Obama doesn’t come out with clean hands simply because his speech wasn’t indoctrination. His guilt in an obvious agenda (with their first attempt) is because the “curriculum” accompanying his speech comes from his own appointed Dept of Ed. (or, in the Dickens analogy, his novel published were it published with suggested curriculum/exercises)

He must take responsibility for their chosen “indoctrination” – not because of his speech content – but because the curriculum provided came from *his* selection of education officials.

They are linked not by his speech content, but by the fact it was his appointees providing that political agenda as curriculum… his appointees, his responsibility. The common element for indoctrination is not the speech and curriculum, but Obama himself.

Mike, I’m not sure how many teachers embarked on that original study plan after the media kerfuffle. Would be interesting to know in the aftermath.

Were my granddaughter in my charge, I would have allowed her to view the speech, and denied the teacher any ability to collect anything from her as an ensuing exercise. And when she got home, I’d make sure I “undid” anything that teacher did. I personally think that hearing both perspectives would have been more valuable than simply isolating her from the offensive to begin with.

However it’s moot to me because the public spoke, the media passed on their voices… followed by Obama’s DOE retreat. I consider that success.

Aaron #52:

I would say that would be a great example of not telling the “truth.” My reply, though, would be that because of the history of this country oppressing Women and minorities, it is in many ways, accomplishments by these groups are greater than they might seem on the surface. Take George Washington Carver.

Your premise itself is already slanted: “history of this country oppressing women and minorities”, which creates the impression of America being unique in this (and I know you know it’s not) regard.

There are a number of hidden hands and heroes whose accomplishments are relegated to the shadows of history. But in a general 3rd grade American history class, you can’t cover them all; so then, what are the important events and who are the important figures of greatest cultural and historical significance to our nation? Who gets to decide?

It is important to mention the first Woman or African-American to do something because many times they faced a greater uphill battle to do those things.

The way I see it, there’s much about promoting those chapters in history that is driven by a political agenda. Movements need their heroes, I suppose.

As for Lies My Teacher Told Me, I would say, don’t be afraid to admit the things that are true in the book – but don’t be afraid to debate them either. I read the book for a college class in which the teacher was not trying to push the ideas of the book on the students – rather he was offering a different perspective than the one we got in grade school and asked us to debate what we thought.

The problem I have with the title is, it’s outdated. What I’ve seen in perusing the pages of that book, is already taught in schools today. When I was a kid in grade school, the simple history was that Columbus was a hero and Thanksgiving a cause for celebration. By the time I reached high school and college, kids were now being taught that Columbus was a white devil and Thanksgiving a day for mourning. “Lies My Teacher Told Me” should be the title of a conservative book when Howard Zinn’s America is what’s being taught to so many of our kids.

I’m a victim of a politically correct education, where there’s a lie being taught that the internment of Japanese immigrant aliens and 2nd generation Nisei Americans during WWII was all about racism, prejudice, and hysteria and that there was not a single incident of disloyalty from Japanese-Americans. That’s a revisionist lie.

It’s funny, because I ended up on the more conservative side of the debate most of the time in class, even though I consider myself a Liberal because too many in the class did not have enough background on the issues.

Yeah, that is funny…you ending up on the conservative end of the argument; and also very scary!

Doesn’t that also give validation to liberal indoctrination in our education system?

I also very much enjoy the “Major Problems in American History” series because of its collection of primary source documents.

I don’t see why, since a number of historians do rely on primary source documents; yet still come to diverging conclusions, interpretations and perspectives. You and I can read primary source information ourselves, and still come away from it with different lessons learned.

For what its worth, I do think that our textbooks are too politically correct, but also do not address or adequately address other issues like socioeconomic oppression, class warfare, institutionalized racism, reverse racism, the military industrial complex, the legality of America’s expansion and race towards manifest destiny, and the extermination of native people, whether intentionally or un-intentionally.

Does anyone else, other than myself, consider that paragraph deliciously funny? “Too politically correct”, yet not addressing adequately enough all those pet-peeve project issues liberals care so passionately about?

Wordsmith: That last paragraph is less amusing than it is illuminating. Obviously, we are dealing with one of those adovcates of social justice who’s sipped too much of the Kool Aid.

But as for Aaron’s statement that “It is important to mention the first Woman or African-American to do something because many times they faced a greater uphill battle to do those things.”

Sorry I missed that earlier in Aaron’s blizzard of bloviation.

I wonder if he had the same appreciation for Sarah Palin’s run for V.P. on the GOP ticket. That was a first for our side. Or did he only think it important when it was Geraldine Ferraro?

One question that I overlooked earlier: I wonder how old Aaron is?

Hurray to Obama for trying to motivate students!!!