Okay – how does Iran saying that these men were part of the security forces prove that Mohsen Bagheri, Mahmoud Farhadi, Majid Ghaemi, Majid Dagheri and Abbas Jam have engaged in or masterminded terrorist attacks? (The EFP attack happened 3 days after these men were detained). Does this mean that if any American ‘Security’ Forces are found within a foreign country that those personnel can be detained for many years without trial simply for being security personel if that country so wishes?

And is military action above the law?

you will believe anything told to you by opponents or enemies of the United States

If you are refering to them being diplomats – I haven’t agreed with that as you know. Again don’t distort my position.

while requiring a much higher standard from the U.S.

All countries of the world ideally should have the same standards – however in reality the US and it’s allies through it’s OWN developed and articulated principles should lead the way.

Go grow a brain

Spare the insults Mike – you only muddy a debate. I’m using my brain – you seem to be thinking with your gut.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that?

Why is it so difficult for you to understand this is a military action, not a police action?

Again, one can only be left with the conclusion that you will believe anything told to you by opponents or enemies of the United States while requiring a much higher standard from the U.S.

Again, what does that say about you?

You have wasted enough of my time here. It’s clear that no matter what I, or any official of the U.S. government might say, you will take the opposing view which favors our enemies.

Go grow a brain.

What, you think planned attacks happen on a whim? They get up in the morning and just decide, hey, lets go attack Karbala?

You asked for evidence of the involvement of these “diplomats” in terrorism and killing of Americans.

What evidence?

1) How does an EFP attack on January 14th 2007 in Baghdad prove that Mohsen Bagheri, Mahmoud Farhadi, Majid Ghaemi, Majid Dagheri and Abbas Jam have engaged in or masterminded terrorist attacks? (The EFP attack happened 3 days after these men were detained)

2) How does TNT found by Iraqi guards prove that Mohsen Bagheri, Mahmoud Farhadi, Majid Ghaemi, Majid Dagheri and Abbas Jam have engaged in or masterminded terrorist attacks?

3) How does Iranian produced portable air defense system found in Baghdad prove that Mohsen Bagheri, Mahmoud Farhadi, Majid Ghaemi, Majid Dagheri and Abbas Jam have engaged in or masterminded terrorist attacks?

4) How does Iranian produced anti-tank propelled grenades recovered in Baghdad prove that Mohsen Bagheri, Mahmoud Farhadi, Majid Ghaemi, Majid Dagheri and Abbas Jam have engaged in or masterminded terrorist attacks?

5) How does intelligence provided by Iraqi and Iranian detainees that Qods forces are helping insurgents with money and arms prove that Mohsen Bagheri, Mahmoud Farhadi, Majid Ghaemi, Majid Dagheri and Abbas Jam have engaged in or masterminded terrorist attacks?

6) And how does not having passports or having ID that match their names prove that Mohsen Bagheri, Mahmoud Farhadi, Majid Ghaemi, Majid Dagheri and Abbas Jam have engaged in or masterminded terrorist attacks?

You think that (mainly random) evidence would stand up in a court of law?

All you have done has proven a connection that Iran is involved in Iraq by providing weapons etc. I have not once disputed this. However you have failed to produce any evidence which links these particularly Iranians to be involved in terrorist attacks.

During the 70s the UK arrested suspected IRA members and often would hold them for lengthy periods of time without trial. That was wrong and as far as I can see – detaining 5 Iranians for being essentially being Iranian – for 2.5 years without trial is also misguided. It appears you wish for them to be held indefinitely. As much as I would love to see any terrorist rot behind bars be they Irish or Iranian terrorism – you got to have evidence.

On another thread you talk about learning from history. Well I suggest you learn you learn that internment has the opposite effect – it inflames situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius

You were too lazy to look it up yourself and I relented.

Obviously it was a waste of my time.

You clearly prefer your anti-American prejudices over the FACTS.

You pass off some Scottish coal mining agitator Socialist as a source?

Please!

And I don’t think you have made the following clear…

Irbil is hundreds of miles away from Karbala AND the attack in Karbala happened 9 days AFTER the Irbil Five were captured.

I haven’t claimed that the Irbil Five were diplomats. I have asked to see evidence that they caused directly or masterminded attacks on US soldiers.

And please don’t try to distort my position. Check post #30

* I’m not doubting that Iran is involved in Iraq.

Again – you are trying to prove something that I’m not disputing – in that Iran is involved in Iraq. But logic doesn’t follow that if Iranians have been implicated in attack on Americans in Iraq therefore ANY Iranians with Iraq are therefore automatically guilty.

For example – the CIA is implicated in the 1973 coup in Chile. However that doesn’t mean that the US ambassador at the time is guilty. Doesn’t mean he is innocent. He may have concluded with the plot – but if he had – the burden of proof is on those who accuse him to prove that he specifically was involved.

Again whether the Irbil Five have dodgy passports again is not proof. And again doesn’t mean that I believe they are diplomats. I just means if the US authorities had enough convincing evidence then they should of put them on trial – so these men could rot in jail – if found guilty.

Otherwise if this is the international law – that people can be thrown in jail if they have dodgy passports and if in a foreign country that captures them accuses them of terrorism – then how many Americans (spies or not) would have been detained indefinately in foreign prisons? Going on hunches(however true it may be) and faulty logic unfortunately isn’t good enough.

1) A pathological inability to face reality
2) Narcisissm

I’ll use Gaffe UK as an example.

The reality is that the five iranians captured are responsible for the murders of American soldiers. Obama letting them go is a horrible act of stupidity. Gaffe UK insists on defending his action because he is a fellow leftist and it would make him look bad by association. Plus he’s an obot.

He doesn’t want to admit what a monster mistake the obomination made (denial). So he goes further into denial and claims that we have no proof they masterminded the murders of our soldiers. After all, it would make him look bad to defend them while admitting they are murderers. Next we see narcisissm.
He claims that it is unjust to hold them without trial. He then gets to claim that he is on the side of morality and justice, which makes him a better person than those of us who want them held. See how that works?

That just proves my point that you will believe ANYONE other than the U.S. government or those of us who are obviously better acquainted with the FACTS.

So, the Iranians claim their terrorists in Iraq were “diplomats” and you believe it? I suppose you think the government backed militants who committed an act of war by seizing our embassy in Tehran 30 years ago were “students” too?

This is part of a clear pattern with you Gaffuk. You believed every bad thing you read about Sarah Palin, even when it was shown to be false you continued to repeat it. And apparently, you will always give the benefit of the doubt to ANYBODY, as long as they oppose or are an enemy of the United States.

What does that say about your objectivity? What does that say about your intellectual veracity? What does that say about you?

Clearly you are too intellectually lazy to do the slightest research into the subject which might undermine the willful ignorance that supports your anti-U.S. prejudices.

Knowing that it won’t make the slightest dent in your mindset, I’ll throw you a few bones anyway:

There’s more truth here than your silly Scottish socialist coal mining agitator:

From the New York Times:

January 29, 2007
Iranian Reveals Plan to Expand Role in Iraq
By JAMES GLANZ

…The ambassador, Hassan Kazemi Qumi, said Iran was prepared to offer Iraq government forces training, equipment and advisers for what he called “the security fight.”
…
Mr. Qumi also acknowledged, for the first time, that two Iranians seized and later released by American forces last month were security officials, as the United States had claimed.
…
He declined to say whether he believed the maps bore sectarian markings or address other pieces of evidence the Americans said they had found, like manifests of weapons and material relating to the technology of sophisticated roadside bombs. But that is not why the Iranians were in the compound, he said.

“They worked in the security sector in the Islamic Republic, that’s clear,” Mr. Qumi said, referring to Iran.

Just what were these “security” people doing?

Here’s a playlist of news reports from NBC in 2007 on the topic. Of course NBC doesn’t have the credibility of your Scottish Socialist coal mining agitator:

http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-US&brand=msnbc&playlist=videoByUuids:uuids:6663dc81-edbf-4c8a-9947-41e1f9117307,3dfe43c5-6269-4341-8dbc-8eb6f88bb5a2&showPlaylist=true&from=00&fg=copy

Among those killed in the Iranian Karbala Attack were

Jake Fritz: All American Small Town Boy

Jacob Fritz, 25 grew up in Verdon, Nebraska (population 242). He was an honor student, a basketball star, and a Homecoming King who also played football, and ran track in high school.

In 2005 he graduated from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point (Captain Freeman graduated from West Point in 1999).

Fritz deployed to Iraq in October 2006 and four days before he died sent this email back to friends and family describing his service. He talked about Christmas in Karbala with his troops, the first time he was away from home for Christmas, and he wanted to thank all the hometown folks who sent him Christmas greetings.

In closing he said :”Regardless of when we come home, my soldiers and I want you all to know that we couldn’t have made it this far through the deployment without your support from back home.”

From the MultiNational Forces briefing:

Nice straw man, but it doesn’t fly here. Two very different situations. So take your morality and stick it

Of course it’s different – depending whether the accused is American or not. As for straw man – I said spying or involved in terrorist activities. I extended it to spying because the accusation could be anything BUT I still included terrorist activities. In the end it could still end up with a person detained indefinately where they are either guilty or not BUT no trial has taken place.

They weren’t vacationing or merely spying in Iraq and YOU KNOW IT.

I didn’t claim they were vacationing or spying did I. Apparently they

According to Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, the detained Iranians had been working in Arbil with official sanction,

and…

Under Iraqi law, detainees identified as insurgents should be charged in civilian courts. They may be held up to 14 days before being brought before a magistrate. These requirements appear to be systematically ignored in practice.[16] In this incident, the Iraqi government denies that the detainees were helping insurgents.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irbil_Five#cite_note-19

Our people on the ground in Iraq have the goods on them, but can’t release the info for security reasons. Again, YOU KNOW THAT.

Truth is I don’t know that & you don’t know that. You are just assuming that because you want it to be true.

Yet you’d rather play your little game where you pat yourself on your back about how moral and superior you are to those of us who think they deserve to be in jail at a minimum.

I don’t think I’m more moral nor more superior than those on here. I can see why you would want them in jail because it’s outrageous and frustrating that Iran has seemingly got involved. Yet Iran and US aren’t openly at war and with apparent lack of evidence – at least in the public domain – we can’t assume these five particular men are guilty. If the US had evidence then why not charge them? And if the US wants Iraq to be a sovereign country then it’s should be Iraq who decides what should be done – not Bush or Obama.

I am tired of brainwashed, narcisisstic, liberals like you making it a point to help our enemies while trying to destroy this country.

Again attacking me rather than sticking with the debate. Yes I’m making a valid political point on a political forum. Look at the lesson of McCarthy to see how the US gets damaged when it takes shortcuts when dealing with justice.

Can’t see your post regarding the evidence to these men.

Claiming I am somehow on the side is a cheap shot I would thought even you would be above. I am not even advocating the release of these men.

Check out the below…
http://www.newshoggers.com/blog/2009/07/rightwing-dishonesty-and-the-irbil-five.html

It’s clear that you take the side of terrorists no matter what.

@Mike
I take that as no then.