My brother is a retired Senior Chief. The stuff he had to do for initiation into the “Chief’s Club” makes Gitmo look like a holiday in Maui.

Ooops.

David Wiles does say who he is in the comment. I was speed reading and missed it.

Thanks for the link

Ron

As far as individuals who have been waterboarded, there are some on record who have said they think it’s torture and some who have not.

Ron

I just wanted to get some reactions.

Ron

OK I lied, last one. Ron, I don’t know Mr. Nance, never heard of him. I’m afraid he is misrepresenting the techniques of Waterboarding though. No water enters the lungs, so that’s clearly BS. The whole idea is to simulate drowning, not actually drown the person. Your gag reflex kicks in immediately and most people pass out rather quickly. They say KSM went over two minutes. You think he did that with water in his lungs? You ever get water in your lungs. Drink something and have it go down the wrong way? Yeah….over two minutes with water in his lungs. I smell something a bit fishy with Mr. Nance.

Malcolm Nance? His story has been in question and, I believe, refuted, found not credible by men who trained, took the training and served in the SEALs:

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/015994.php

FWIW:

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/015900.php#comment-39605

@Aqua:

Tis’ an honor to have you here with us and thank you for your service. I’m not surprised that you did not go into an indepth explanation about your training to refute Ron’s post. True patriot and man of honor.

Oh and I didn’t consent to a spanking, so, does that meet your definition of torture?

Wait. You’re saying that by going to SERE school I was consenting to torture? I knew I should have read that contract.

Just like everyone else that served, I knew what I was getting into when I joined. And when I decided to become a member of the flight crew, I knew I would have to go to SERE. Just like I knew when I joined ParaRescue I knew I’d have to run until I puked up a lung. But if you think SERE is like a classroom where they show you interrogation techniques and then ask for volunteers, you’re sadly mistaken.

Once you join the military, that’s the end of your volunteering. Once the uniform is on, your butt belongs to Uncle Sugar. I read that contract and they don’t put that in the fine print. It’s right up front where you can read it. If I had to do it all over again, I’d do it all over again.

Something to add to dabate:

I know waterboarding is torture – because I did it myself

By MALCOLM NANCE

Wednesday, October 31st 2007, 10:52 PM

Last week, attorney general nominee Judge Michael Mukasey dodged the question of whether waterboarding terror suspects is necessarily torture. Americans can disagree as to whether or not this should disqualify him for the top job in the Justice Department. But they should be under no illusions about what waterboarding is.

As a former master instructor and chief of training at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, I know the waterboard personally and intimately. Our staff was required to undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception.

I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school’s interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques employed by the Army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What is less frequently reported is that our training was designed to show how an evil totalitarian enemy would use torture at the slightest whim.

Having been subjected to this technique, I can say: It is risky but not entirely dangerous when applied in training for a very short period. However, when performed on an unsuspecting prisoner, waterboarding is a torture technique – without a doubt. There is no way to sugarcoat it.

In the media, waterboarding is called “simulated drowning,” but that’s a misnomer. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning.

Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

How much of this the victim is to endure depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs that show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

Waterboarding is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. Usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch. If it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia – meaning, the loss of all oxygen to the cells.

The lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threatened with its use again and again. Call it “Chinese water torture,” “the barrel,” or “the waterfall.” It is all the same.

One has to overcome basic human decency to endure causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you questioning the meaning of what it is to be an American.

Is there a place for the waterboard? Yes. It must go back to the realm of training our operatives, soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines – to prepare for its uncontrolled use by our future enemies. Brutal interrogation, flash murder and extreme humiliation of Americans may now be guaranteed because we have mindlessly, but happily, broken the seal on the Pandora’s box of indignity, cruelty and hatred in the name ofprotecting America.

Torture advocates hide behind the argument that an open discussion about specific American interrogation techniques will aid the enemy. Yet convicted Al Qaeda members and innocent captives who were released to their host nations have already debriefed the world through hundreds of interviews, movies and documentaries on exactly what methods they were subjected to and how they endured.

Our own missteps have already created a cadre of highly experienced lecturers for Al Qaeda’s own virtual school for terrorists.

I agree with Sen. John McCain. Waterboarding should never be used as an interrogation tool. It is beneath our values.

Nance is a counterterrorism consultant for the government’s special operations, homeland security and intelligence agencies. A longer version of this essay appeared on http://www.smallwarsjournal.com/blog.

if high level FBI and CIA officials were accusing Obama/Biden of impeding an interrogation to bolster their own political agenda, would you give him the same deference you are now giving Bush/Cheney? Would you not, at least, be in support of an investigation?

Obama Admin IS blocking efforts to find truth by blocking Cheney request to show (even redacted) docs that would show interrogations worked & saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

This line about assuming benevolence is wrong-not because of a political bias, but because at the time this was happening there is a historical, extremely well-documented case of lack of intel-a lack of which specifically led to the 911 attacks, was causing concern about other attacks, and later would lead to intel failures re Iraq. Recall that the Joint House/Sen intel committee inquiry into the 911 attacks revealed that between 1998 and 911, no more than 4 to 40 people in the entire intel community were tracking the entire AQ network, and from 1998-2003….there were ZERO human intel assets inside Iraq. That’s a bi-partisan investigation that says this, and I can point to three others that say it as well. There was almost no intel, and as such freaking out over concerns of a lack of intel isn’t pushing for a story (while the Olby’s of the world like to assume), but a very realistic matter. Like I said, if they wanted a false story…they could have just made one up.

I do not support airing our internal intel/executive branch battles of who knew what, when, what happened.

Obviously you and I have fundamentally different views on what warrants an investigation rather than trusting it to work itself out through protocol. I’ll admit that I didn’t expect you to be consistent on this, but for that you have a lot of my respect.

The confession interrogators wanted from Zubaydah is the same – that of a link between al Qaida and Saddam. And I’m not stating this as fact, but as a plausible reason for taking Sufan off even though he was getting actionable intelligence.

Spare me the assumptions lecture and apply your own “privvy to something the public is not” to yourself. Or perhaps, as Scott pointed out, you were inspired by Keith O’s diatribe this eve.

While the executive is meant to be the receiver of intel, it now looks like Cheney was intricately involved in deciding the kinds of interrogations should be carried out.

The same applies… the “it now looks like” is an assumption, but one with a twist. Cheney as VP is #2 guy to the CIC. They have a direct and legit say in what is being done for interrogation policy. However, that still makes the executive branch a RECEIVER of intel once that interrogation is complete. Methods and results are two different aspects.

But it’s good to find some… any… common ground that we both believe documents and details on our operatives methods and results should remain classified. Ultimately, my bottom line still remains the populous is not a “need to know” security cleared class.

Which then leads me to your other question. You do seem to be adamant to try and get some ODS out of me. No… I do not support airing our internal intel/executive branch battles of who knew what, when, what happened. I am not partisan about our military, our national security, or classified intel.

Obama is a receiver of intel, not an interrogator. And I give Obama considerable latitude on keeping info classified for our national security, just as I did Bush. I applaud his decision to withhold the photos, however it does not negate the damage he did by voluntarily releasing the memos without holding it up and away from the ACLU and public… as it should have been… thru litigation. He caved for poll points. He then realized the error of his ways. Good… just wish he’d done it before screwing it up the first time.