Not So Smart Opposition to Israel’s Self-Defense Strikes

It matters not what HAMAS does or doesn’t do, the fact that Israel exists, and Jews are actually breathing, is sin enough. I wonder where common sense has gone.

This “thing” has only been going on for 3 or 4 days now, but uber-idiot Cynthia McKinney has already managed to get a boat there, only to be rammed by the Israeli Navy.

Does she have a real “day job” ?

I take it the guy holding the sign is a recent Harvard grad.

OH! I have an idea! Send Al Franken over to Gaza to sooth their angry minds and promote peace and understanding.

And my sign…

“AN END TO ALL FILTHY MUCKS AND MUDS”

Americans should look at the vicousness of the protests taking place in this country and finally realize there is no way to negotiate with these idiots. Their way or no way. I say no way. Expell them all.

Wisdom, you are welcome as my neighbor any day of the week…. LOL

I’m with Wisdom to the 100th power

Justin L,

Oh boy! We are not out of the woods with you… lol

“What I can say is… Craig? Watch your back. This terrorist sympathizer is in your back yard. And closer than you think.” (Mata)

LOL. That doesn’t suprises me one bit, they are all pro-terrorists here.

MataHarley,

if your best defense is personal attacks then you have no defense. in response to some of what you said:

I do agree that many of this world’s societies exist in places that have histories with other people, and that is certainly true of canada. I’m part aboriginal, in fact, so the notion of historical entitlement is not foreign to me. however, the world has largely rejected the idea of trying to rearrange everyone in order to restore all land to its first occupants, and this is for good reason. I’m not ignorant of history, I simply reject the notion that faith or political and economic influence warrant an exception in the case of israel, where no other entitlement would be recognized by world standards.

also, when I said that the israeli presence is unnecessary and is the source of conflict, I was referring to their presence in the region. I’m really not concerned with the concept of ownership, either way, but I recognize that the decision to move a second culture into that area has caused constant conflict, and that reversing the decision by moving them to another location would be a simple and easy way to end the violence.

to present a simple analogy, if you have a large cage with 10 dogs that get along relatively well, but then you add another dog, and a constant series of fights breaks out, it’s logical to simply move the new dog back out of the cage in order to prevent the fighting. who owns what isn’t really my concern, and I would probably advocate moving the israelis even if they had been there all along and their neighbors were a relatively new presence, simply because israel is a small, isolated group which would be far more practical to move.

also, I have no racial bias. I’ve said my share of scathing things about china and tibet, france and vietnam, britain and ireland, de beers and south africa. this sad nazi comparison bit is really tiresome, and it isn’t fooling a lot of people these days.

@Justin L:

MataHarley,

if your best defense is personal attacks then you have no defense.

She only mentioned “stupid” once. Sheesh….

A@Justin L:

the israelis don’t need to be in that location, their forced presence is the cause of this conflict, and americans should have no trouble recognizing that killing thousands of innocent people in order to demolish important buildings is horrific. also, in this case, many of the victims are children.

lies and propaganda are decreasingly effective in today’s world,

When you speak of lies and propaganda, how do you know you’re not the one victim to it? And if this is the case, hardly “decreasingly effective”, no?

Here’s an example of the kind of “lies and propaganda” I’ve been fed. Is this historical perspective wrong?:

Myth #1 – The Myth of Palestine

In an article entitled, “The Lesson of Palestine,” printed in the Middle East Journal, October 1949, Arab activist, Musa Alami, wrote, “how can people struggle for their nation, when most of them do not know the meaning of the word? The people are in great need of a “myth” of imagination. The myth of nationality would create “identity” and “self-respect.”

The Arab world has certainly demonstrated great skill in the “myth” of imagination. They have done such a good job that they have convinced much of the world that their “myths” are facts. Perhaps their biggest myth is the myth of Palestine. The Arab world would have us believe that the Palestinians have been in “Palestine” from “time immemorial” but were displaced by the Jews when Israel became a state in 1948. But what are the facts?

While we are not certain of the exact dates, Joshua conquered the Land God promised the Jews in the 13th century BCE. King David established Jerusalem as the capital of Israel around 1000 BCE. King Solomon built the Jewish Temple about 960 BCE. This was almost 1000 years before the beginning of Christianity and 1600 years before the rise of Islam. As Prime Minister Barak has noted, “When Jesus came to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts, he didn’t come to a church or a mosque, he came to the Temple.” It is not the Church Mount or the Mosque Mount that is fought over, it is the Temple Mount. It was the Temple Mount centuries before Christianity tried to make it the Church Mount and Islam tried to make it the Mosque Mount.

However, not to be confused with facts, in a personal audience I had several years ago with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who was appointed by Arafat, he boldly declared that the Arabs had been living in the Land for 10,000 years. Based on conservative Bible chronology, that means the Arabs have been living in the Land before the Almighty created Adam and Eve.

How did Israel become Palestine and who are the Palestinians? The second Jewish war with the Romans took place in 132-135 CE. Led by Rabbi Akiva and Simon bar Kochba, the Jewish uprising was crushed by the Roman Emperor Hadrian who sought to de-Judaize Jerusalem and make it a pagan city. Hadrian renamed Jerusalem “Aelia Capitolina” in honor of Jupiter. He changed the name of Judea and gave it the name of the Jews ancient enemy, the Philistines. He called it — Palestine.

Over time, Palestine was ruled by the Roman Byzantines (312-637) [Persian interrupt 614-629], Omayyad Arabs (638-750), Islamic Abbassid’s (750-1099), Crusaders (1099-1291) [Saladin the Kurd interrupt 1187-93], Mamluks (1291-1516), Ottoman Turks (1517-1917), and the British Mandate (1917-1948). None of these rulers established a sovereign state in the Land and Jerusalem was never the capital of any empire since the time of King David. Palestine was a forgotten desolate, wasteland, but historical records show there was always a Jewish presence in the Land.

The revival of modern Jewish life in the Land began in the 1880’s with the arrival of Russian refugees from the Russian pogroms. A second wave of immigration, also from Russia, was in 1905. This was followed by later immigrations resulting in a growing Jewish population in the Land. When the Jews came to the Land, they found a malaria infested swamp in the north and an uninhabitable desert in the south. It was as if the God of the Bible had kept the Land hidden away in obscurity until the rightful owners — the Jews returned to claim it.

The Jewish pioneers did not steal the Land from the Arabs. They purchased the Land at highly inflated prices from absentee landlords living outside the Land. As the Jews worked the Land, it began to prosper. While there were Jews and Arabs living in the Land, there were many poor migrant Arab farm workers in the surrounding Arab countries who needed work. When they heard that the Land was prospering under the hand of the Jews, they migrated to Palestine to get work from the Jews. Furthermore, the British allowed many thousands of Arabs into Palestine illegally while barring the Jews from entering the Land. For the most part, the Arab Palestinians are these peasant farm workers and illegal aliens. “Palestinians” have never been a distinct people, they have never had a sovereign land called Palestine, Jerusalem has never been their capital, there is no Palestinian language or culture, and there is no Palestinian people. It is a myth created after the Jews liberated Jerusalem in 1967.

Before the birth of the State of Israel, Arab leaders themselves denied the existence of an Arab country called Palestine. In 1937, Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi said, “There is no such country [as Palestine]! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. ‘Palestine” is alien to us; it is the Zionists who introduced it.” In 1946, a distinguished Princeton professor and Arab historian said, “There is no such thing as Palestine in Arab history, absolutely not.”

All who lived in the Land, Jews, Arabs, and Christians, were called Palestinians. In fact, the Jerusalem Post was called the Palestinian Post. Under the British Mandate, the Palestinian Jews were given a state. But before this state came into existence, Colonial Secretary, Winston Churchill, in 1922, took away seventy-seven percent of the geographic area promised to the Jews and created Transjordan as a state for the Palestinian Arabs. Israel would be for the Palestinian Jews and Transjordan (now Jordan) for the Palestinian Arabs.

Israel became a state in the War of Independence in 1948. At that time, approximately 600,000 Arabs fled to become refugee pawns in the hands of neighboring Arab states. Some number of Arabs stayed to become Israeli citizens. While we certainly sympathize with the plight of the Arab refugees, their problems could easily be solved if their Arab brothers cared enough to assimilate them as the Jews did their own 800,000 immigrants who were kicked out from the Arab countries.

Why do Jews have any less of a claim to the land than Arabs?

Hey watch it everyone, Wordsmith is pulling out his gigantic response posts again. I’m taking off from work all next week to read them. Let’s see I’ll need loads of coffee, cigarettes…ummm snacks…yes snacks…

Ron

Justin L,

Were you in this “peaceful” manifestation in Montreal on January 10, 2009? Boy, this was ugly.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x80vdr_la-haine_news

Ouch!

That’s gonna leave a mark.

Yes, I’m back officially.

Work is nutsy in the Nov-Dec time frame. Gotta work extra hard to earn that bailout money that Congress is steadily doling out.

May have to back off a little again in March-April (our other really busy season) but otherwise here I am.

Nah, I’d rather be excluded from the payouts.

I’ll just have to work harder to offset having Obie’s hand in my pocket.

Plus:

My wife wants a new kitchen.

My 17 year old is singin’ the “I want a car” song.

My 15 year old is just about to get her license.

My 11 year old needs braces.

Oy!

Wordsmith,

I’m quite aware of historical land claims by the israelis, and I would guess that there is some truth to them, but I consider the topic moot. the vast surrounding area is currently occupied by muslims, and the predictable effect of establishing israel is violence. I’d like to see a day when the world is under a unified government and everyone is able to move wherever they please in peace, but the practical fact is that at this point, the political and cultural climate in the area of israel is prohibitive to settlement.

MataHarley,

I said that the world has rejected the idea of trying to restore all land to the descendants of its original occupants, and that this policy is for good reason. I don’t support uprooting established societies, or occupying another society by force. in fact, I don’t believe in special entitlement to anything based on lineage, and I support equal access to the world’s land and resources for all people, regardless of their race and heritage. what I said about israel is that israelis don’t warrant an exception.

in response to your claim that israel’s neighbors will eventually invade europe, anything is possible, but injecting a non-muslim state into the middle east by force isn’t helping anything, and it is in fact causing a lot of immediate bloodshed that could otherwise be avoided.

also, no I do not have any racial bias, and I do not support islam. in fact, I consider civil rights conditions in many muslim nations to be a crisis, but I don’t believe that bombings and occupations help. in fact, I think that forcing israel into their midst, bombing them, and placing and maintaining dictatorships, is specifically inhibiting firm but nonviolent efforts that could otherwise be used to push muslim nations toward respecting civil liberties. the US specifically holds back democracy in muslim countries because dictators are necessary in order to ensure that american companies will be given lucrative contracts. for instance, the shah of iran and saddam hussein were both put in power by the US, and many royal dictators are supported by the US.

Wordsmith,

I think that people use this “right to exist” term to try to equate disputing land ownership with wanting to kill people, so I never use or directly acknowledge that phrase. that being said, I absolutely do not feel that forcing a non-muslim state into the region is necessary or useful at this point, and religious devotion, historical land ownership claims, political and economic influence by a particular group, and other reasons why another group would like to be inserted by force are not withstanding.

“I prefer we don’t hand over U.S. sovereignty to a corrupt body like the U.N.” I don’t consider any part of the middle east to be US territory or otherwise any more logically subject to US rule or regulation than, for example, to chinese rule.

“[this planet’s leaders speak with a nearly unanimous voice in opposition to israel.] Does that make them right?” I don’t believe in morality, but it is the voice consensus and democracy.

“The UN is a far different organization today than it was in 1948.” it isn’t just UN delegates, it’s the vast majority of the planet finding religion to be a poor excuse for an occupation, finding israel’s tactics to be horrific war crimes that would never be acceptable in any scenario, finding american unilateralism over a held-hostage world disgusting, and finding israel’s democracy-subverting efforts around the world (lobbying and often much worse) infuriating.

“Israel consistently votes with the U.S. in the United Nations; Arab nations consistently vote against us. They do not have our best interests at heart.

The UN is part of the problem in the world, Justin.” arab nations are a minority at the UN, they can’t pass measures unilaterally. opposition to israel is a clear message from a vast majority of the world, from all corners, all races, all cultures, all religions (except judaism). if you believe in democracy then you oppose calling yourself righteous and dictating to a group that vastly outnumbers you. imposing israel on this planet is inherently unamerican. it’s tyranny.

“From the dose of pro-Israel propaganda I’ve been chomping on, Justin, education and literacy rate is as high if not higher for Arabs living in Israel than for Arabs living anywhere else in the world.” that addresses nothing that I said, and has no bearing on the legitimacy of israel

“Contrary to propaganda and to what many believe, the Arabs in Israel are full-fledged citizens, enjoy every right, have the same status in law as Jewish Israelis, and can freely move all over the country without fear of being harassed, attacked, or killed.” that is just not accurate, but again, this is an irrelevent diversion and I don’t want to get into it

“So what is it you propose? Appeasement road to peace?” I propose offering foreign santuary and a protected exit to every israeli who will leave, and then disabling the remainder’s nuclear capabilities, cutting their supply of weapons and funding, embargoing them, boycotting them, and sanctioning them. I expect there are countless countries that would provide food and housing for israel’s people, and an astonishingly safe and efficient exit process, which I highly doubt any of israel’s enemies would seek to disrupt.

“I disagree. Muslims within Israel enjoy these “civil liberties”; outside Israel, in Arab states, they do not. Israel is not the problem when it comes to the backwardness and human rights issues inherent in many Arab states.” israel isn’t the root cause, no, but unnecessary conflict and occupation is certainly holding back social progress, particularly in the matter of america placing and keeping “royal” families and other gangs and thugs in power.

“Dictators are the “lesser of evils” than allowing secular Muslim governments to fall, to be replaced by Islamic states that will bring more repression; not less.” this isn’t your call or your business, and you can’t expect to make these calls for other people at the point of a gun and be safe in your own back yard.

“The problem isn’t because America does business with non-democratic regimes in the Arab world. Those like bin Laden and Zawahiri don’t oppose Muslim governments and the Saudis because they want a more open, freer society. They hate the U.S. support of those secular Muslim states because they demand a more Islamic society that will have fewer freedoms and more oppression on human rights.” not all muslims agree on how policed they would like the public to be, if at all. the one unifying voice is that american interference in muslim countries or their immediate vicinities is the worst possible scenario, and will be met with violent opposition.

“We all know the answer. In every Arab country, a corrupt regime supported by America would be supplanted by a Taliban-type Islamic/fascist regime.” this assertion is unsubstantiated and inconsistent with the facts. by the way, the US essentially created the taliban.

“America’s and Israel’s haters are ethnic and religious haters on a magnitude not seen since the Nazis.” the lie that opposition to israel is inherently racist isn’t fooling anyone.

“If America abandoned Israel, our Arab and Muslim haters would rejoice, but they would surely not stop hating us. Not one of them.” america wasn’t chosen out of a hat, and neither were the israelis.

“America alone (and the little America in the Middle East, Israel) prevents the expansion of Islamic rule.” any of the G8 and more could demolish every muslim country on earth with the slightest twitch of their industrial might. this notion of muslims rolling across the globe, invading and defeating europe, china, russia, and other actual powers, is just an absolutely hilarious mutation of anti-communist paranoia that was ridiculous in the first place.

“Because expansionist totalitarian movements, whether Soviet communism or radical Islam, always hate free societies, and America is the strongest free society.” the only active, credible threat to the security and freedom of sovereign nations, on the planet, at this moment, is america.

“Our great problem is that so many in our country do not understand that those who loathe liberty loathe America.” many in america can see that overthrowing foreign governments, bombing innocent people, dictating policy on the other side of the globe, and worse, are obvious causes of backlash. in fact, it would be absolutely bizarre if america could do what it does, and everyone just laughed it off. it would be weird.

@Justin L:

I think that people use this “right to exist” term to try to equate disputing land ownership with wanting to kill people, so I never use or directly acknowledge that phrase. that being said, I absolutely do not feel that forcing a non-muslim state into the region is necessary or useful at this point, and religious devotion, historical land ownership claims, political and economic influence by a particular group, and other reasons why another group would like to be inserted by force are not withstanding.

You don’t like the term…so what term should I use? How’s “appeasement”? Or is that word too inflammatory and insulting? Simplistic?

“I prefer we don’t hand over U.S. sovereignty to a corrupt body like the U.N.” I don’t consider any part of the middle east to be US territory or otherwise any more logically subject to US rule or regulation than, for example, to chinese rule.

Other than our embassies, how are we imposing U.S. territorial rule in the Middle East? What you cited me on was a response to your wish “to see a day when the world is under a unified government”

“[this planet’s leaders speak with a nearly unanimous voice in opposition to israel.] Does that make them right?” I don’t believe in morality, but it is the voice consensus and democracy.

Can you elaborate more on this? You have me a bit in a labyrinth; show me the thread of thought to follow you here.

“The UN is a far different organization today than it was in 1948.” it isn’t just UN delegates, it’s the vast majority of the planet finding religion to be a poor excuse for an occupation, finding israel’s tactics to be horrific war crimes that would never be acceptable in any scenario, finding american unilateralism over a held-hostage world disgusting, and finding israel’s democracy-subverting efforts around the world (lobbying and often much worse) infuriating.

But is that the actual reality of what’s going on? Or is it an issue of perception and perspective? Much of the world you speak of seem to have been fed a heavy does of anti-American propaganda. Do we accept their worldview and capitulate? Or should we try and set the record straight? Or at least give it a more even-handed outlook?

“Israel consistently votes with the U.S. in the United Nations; Arab nations consistently vote against us. They do not have our best interests at heart.

The UN is part of the problem in the world, Justin.” arab nations are a minority at the UN, they can’t pass measures unilaterally. opposition to israel is a clear message from a vast majority of the world, from all corners, all races, all cultures, all religions (except judaism). if you believe in democracy then you oppose calling yourself righteous and dictating to a group that vastly outnumbers you. imposing israel on this planet is inherently unamerican. it’s tyranny.

The UN is dysfunctional and broke. It is an unelected body whose body is comprised of mostly undemocratic states. It is not an institution created of, by, and for the people.

Number of UN member states that are full-fledged democracies or “fully free” according to Freedom House: 89

Number of UN member states: 192

Percentage of UN member states which are full-fledged democracies: 46%

The so-called “vast majority” opposed to Israel have been fed hogwash propaganda regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict. It’s the same with anti-Americanism. Not all countries are created equal, yet you and the UN want to give the same respect, equal treatment, and chair at the dinner table as democratic nations, to some of the worst violators of human rights abuses and corruption and not “pass judgment”. The UN’s commitment to the kind of utopia you probably want won’t happen because its commitment to human rights, democracy, and the rule of law is a rarity, not the rule.

“Morality” and “right” aren’t in with you, but “moral relativism” is? What if the majority rule supported genocide? Would that make it “ok” with you, because “majority rules” and we should just “go along with it”?

World opinion didn’t save 6 million Jews from the Nazis. It didn’t help 60 million Chinese from being slaughtered by Mao; it isn’t saving genocide in Darfur nor has it freed Tibet. The United Nations and world opinion is mostly mired in apathy and moral bankruptcy.

“From the dose of pro-Israel propaganda I’ve been chomping on, Justin, education and literacy rate is as high if not higher for Arabs living in Israel than for Arabs living anywhere else in the world.” that addresses nothing that I said, and has no bearing on the legitimacy of israel

It was a response to this: I support equal access to the world’s land and resources for all people, regardless of their race and heritage.

Arabs have been accepted into Israel and enjoy access to land and opportunity, regardless of their race or faith. And that happens in Israel. It doesn’t happen in Arab states.

“So what is it you propose? Appeasement road to peace?” I propose offering foreign santuary and a protected exit to every israeli who will leave, and then disabling the remainder’s nuclear capabilities, cutting their supply of weapons and funding, embargoing them, boycotting them, and sanctioning them. I expect there are countless countries that would provide food and housing for israel’s people, and an astonishingly safe and efficient exit process, which I highly doubt any of israel’s enemies would seek to disrupt.

Absolutely astonishing and fascinating. And then what happens? Will the hatred and conflicts end there?

Here’s another “distraction” for you:

Though Arab nations profess concern for the Palestinian Of the $2.53 billion spent by refugees, the richest of these countries have contributed little indeed to UNRWA over the years. the Agency up to 1984, America’s $1.34 billion contribution towers far above the meager $142 million from the oil-rich OPEC nations. Israel’s $11 million contribution since 1950, in fact has been double that of Egypt, three times that of Syria, and was exceeded among Arab nations only by Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Kuwait. The current annual contribution of the U.S. to UNRWA and UNRWA-related projects is an estimated $70 to 100 million. Yet this largesse has earned it more contempt that gratitude. The Soviet Union, meanwhile, has yet to pay a single soft ruble, to say nothing of a hard dollar, to UNRWA.

But apparently, “I digress”…….

“I disagree. Muslims within Israel enjoy these “civil liberties”; outside Israel, in Arab states, they do not. Israel is not the problem when it comes to the backwardness and human rights issues inherent in many Arab states.” israel isn’t the root cause, no, but unnecessary conflict and occupation is certainly holding back social progress, particularly in the matter of america placing and keeping “royal” families and other gangs and thugs in power.

Again, what would happen if the U.S. didn’t back anti-communist governments and anti-Islamist secular Muslim governments? Reality is, sometimes you have a choice between supporting “bad” and “worse”, not sitting on the sidelines. You think a more Taliban-like government (for that’s the other alternative) would be “social progress”? The Prager piece said it well enough.

“Dictators are the “lesser of evils” than allowing secular Muslim governments to fall, to be replaced by Islamic states that will bring more repression; not less.” this isn’t your call or your business, and you can’t expect to make these calls for other people at the point of a gun and be safe in your own back yard.

BS. Your assumption is that American interventionism makes things worse. Overall, it has not. Most countries have benefited from American interference. Even where we’ve supported bad dictators, because the alternative would have been a worse regime.

Unless you listen to the Ward Churchills, Howard Zinns, Noam Chomskys, and Juan Coles.

“The problem isn’t because America does business with non-democratic regimes in the Arab world. Those like bin Laden and Zawahiri don’t oppose Muslim governments and the Saudis because they want a more open, freer society. They hate the U.S. support of those secular Muslim states because they demand a more Islamic society that will have fewer freedoms and more oppression on human rights.” not all muslims agree on how policed they would like the public to be, if at all. the one unifying voice is that american interference in muslim countries or their immediate vicinities is the worst possible scenario, and will be met with violent opposition.

That’s mostly because they’ve been fed the bs of the Ward Churchills, Howard Zinns, Noam Chomskys, Juan Coles, and Islamic fundamentalists who desire to subject the whole of society under Sharia- which would be more repressive, not less.

“We all know the answer. In every Arab country, a corrupt regime supported by America would be supplanted by a Taliban-type Islamic/fascist regime.” this assertion is unsubstantiated and inconsistent with the facts. by the way, the US essentially created the taliban.

We left a power-vacuum in Afghanistan, but we didn’t “essentially” create the Taliban. Nor did we fund bin Laden.

What do you mean “inconsistent with the facts”? The Shah of Iran was replaced by what? An Islamic/fascist regime. The secular Muslim governments in the Middle East are threatened by what? Radical Islamic groups who wish to live under theocratic rule.

“America’s and Israel’s haters are ethnic and religious haters on a magnitude not seen since the Nazis.” the lie that opposition to israel is inherently racist isn’t fooling anyone.

Not what he’s saying. You blame Israel for the problem. Not the religious/cultural teachings that breed hatred where children are indoctrinated to look at Jews as pigs?

“America alone (and the little America in the Middle East, Israel) prevents the expansion of Islamic rule.” any of the G8 and more could demolish every muslim country on earth with the slightest twitch of their industrial might. this notion of muslims rolling across the globe, invading and defeating europe, china, russia, and other actual powers, is just an absolutely hilarious mutation of anti-communist paranoia that was ridiculous in the first place.

Islamic fundamentalism is a global threat. Not through land invasion by armies, but through radical teachings of wahhabism in Saudi-funded mosques and failures on the part of European nations to integrate and assimilate Muslims to be good citizens and not listeners of clerics who preach anti-western messages and issues of foreign policy in their sermons.

“Because expansionist totalitarian movements, whether Soviet communism or radical Islam, always hate free societies, and America is the strongest free society.” the only active, credible threat to the security and freedom of sovereign nations, on the planet, at this moment, is america.

Yes because we’ve made Japan, Germany, the Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Somalia, Serbia subjugated under American colonial oppression and imperialist rule.

“Our great problem is that so many in our country do not understand that those who loathe liberty loathe America.” many in america can see that overthrowing foreign governments, bombing innocent people, dictating policy on the other side of the globe, and worse, are obvious causes of backlash. in fact, it would be absolutely bizarre if america could do what it does, and everyone just laughed it off. it would be weird.

Yes, we, like Israel, do nothing more than bomb innocent people and overthrow brutal regimes peaceful governments benign to their people.

Here’s a beautiful thread for you to absorb.

Wordsmith,

“You don’t like the term…so what term should I use? How’s “appeasement”? Or is that word too inflammatory and insulting? Simplistic?” appeasing the word by letting it manage its own affairs would go a long way to keeping americans safe.

“Other than our embassies, how are we imposing U.S. territorial rule in the Middle East?” providing weapons and funding to israel and other unwanted regimes, a long history of bombing campaigns, working out oil contracts and other deals with tyrants, vetoing various resolutions at the UN, and much, much more.

“[[this planet’s leaders speak with a nearly unanimous voice in opposition to israel.] Does that make them right?” I don’t believe in morality, but it is the voice consensus and democracy.]

Can you elaborate more on this? You have me a bit in a labyrinth; show me the thread of thought to follow you here.” review america’s history of vetoing down UN resolutions. look at who voted for those resolutions. it’s a majority of the world, not just muslim countries. even greece recently turned back a shipment of weapons to israel while the boat was stopped in a greek port. american media refused to report on it, as they black out a lot of international opposition, but you can read about it from international sources if you do a google search.

“But is that the actual reality of what’s going on? Or is it an issue of perception and perspective? Much of the world you speak of seem to have been fed a heavy does of anti-American propaganda. Do we accept their worldview and capitulate? Or should we try and set the record straight? Or at least give it a more even-handed outlook?” it isn’t a matter of perspective. it isn’t theoretical. american military force is in active use around the world, including the tens of billions of dollars in weapons hand outs to israel each year. american vetoes are keeping the UN silenced. you can verify this, it’s not a matter of dispute or speculation.

“The UN is dysfunctional and broke. It is an unelected body whose body is comprised of mostly undemocratic states. It is not an institution created of, by, and for the people.” but it isn’t just tyrants and thugs. look at the voting record on resolutions concerning israel. it’s also other G8 players, major countries, countries with infinitely more effective democratic systems and free media than what exists in the US. search for articles about israel in google, and look at articles from media outlets in other major countries. the differences are alarming. for instance, CNN refers to everyone with a government job in palestine as a “hamas operative,” this is similar to referring to every person who worked for the US government under bush as a “republican operative.” or for example, CNN scarcely mentions civilian casualties in palestine and most of their articles omit the fact that a third of those are children. no pictures or shown. media outlets in other countries are reporting the whole truth, specific numbers of casualties, showing pictures, and so on, as a free media is supposed to do, because it’s vitally important to democracy.

““Morality” and “right” aren’t in with you, but “moral relativism” is? What if the majority rule supported genocide? Would that make it “ok” with you, because “majority rules” and we should just “go along with it”?” every tyrant claims to be a liberator, claims that their presence is the only thing holding back the slaughter of innocents, and meanwhile, oppresses and slaughters innocents. america is founded on a rejection of the idea that a small empire from another continent can be entitled to dictate to a third party, under any circumstances. modern US world policing is fundamentally anti-american. in fact, in the last 50 years, the US has slaughtered millions of innocent people and consistently acted to prevent democracy.

“World opinion didn’t save 6 million Jews from the Nazis. It didn’t help 60 million Chinese from being slaughtered by Mao; it isn’t saving genocide in Darfur nor has it freed Tibet.” you oppose the occupation of tibet? a powerful country proving that it controlled another country’s land in ancient times and using military force to seize that land? you oppose that practice?

“Absolutely astonishing and fascinating. And then what happens? Will the hatred and conflicts end there?” yes, israel would not be a problem if it existed in the continental US. the israeli conflict would finally end in that case, as israel’s current neighbors would neither wish to militarily attack israel, nor would have any hope of doing so.

“Again, what would happen if the U.S. didn’t back anti-communist governments and anti-Islamist secular Muslim governments?” the US does the opposite, it crushes secural movements and imposes shahs and royals. a lack of US policing would certainly mean more peace, more freedom, more democracy.

“BS. Your assumption is that American interventionism makes things worse. Overall, it has not. Most countries have benefited from American interference. Even where we’ve supported bad dictators, because the alternative would have been a worse regime.” that’s inaccurate. the US supports shahs, pinochets, royals, husseins, typically as an alternative to a democratic government. in fact, the gaza bombing campaign that happens to slaughter children (400 or so dead now), is an effort to thwart a hostile democratically elected government by simply deposing it, thereby thwarting democracy. US policy is clear: people can vote the way the US wants, or they can’t vote.

“Not what he’s saying. You blame Israel for the problem. Not the religious/cultural teachings that breed hatred where children are indoctrinated to look at Jews as pigs?” israel’s religiously motivated and ancient land claims are meaningless to me, just as someone claiming to be a descendant of royalty where my ancestors were servants and demanding my servitude would be laughable. so yes, I disagree with israel’s presence, I support moving its people back out, and in any conflict, even one where israel’s neighbors cross various lines in the sand, I still have no trouble recognizing that israel’s presence is the core issue that needs to be resolved. if hamas has violated international law, set up a tribunal for the specific perpetrators, but that has no bearing on the legitimacy of israel’s presence, or whether or not israel’s attacks are also war crimes, which they are.

“Islamic fundamentalism is a global threat. Not through land invasion by armies, but through radical teachings of wahhabism in Saudi-funded mosques and failures on the part of European nations to integrate and assimilate Muslims to be good citizens and not listeners of clerics who preach anti-western messages and issues of foreign policy in their sermons.” islam is horrible, but it isn’t a direct military threat to the US in any way. the only threat to the US is a war of public opinion and guerrilla tactics, which any student of history knows are almost always exacerbated and amplified by a conventional warfare response.

“Yes because we’ve made Japan, Germany, the Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Somalia, Serbia subjugated under American colonial oppression and imperialist rule.” hitler was democratically elected and was defeated on his own soil by russia, and japan didn’t experience regime change in response to US terrorist genocide. iraq and afghanistan are currently subject to US administration and occupation, in the sense that their governments answer to US commanders who have extensive forces in their countries.

“Yes, we, like Israel, do nothing more than bomb innocent people and overthrow brutal regimes peaceful governments benign to their people.” you also sponsor dictators and use them to access oil and other resources

MetaHarley,

“That means that 56.8% of citizens that were eligible to vote, actually participated in the POTUS election. This pretty much blows your concocted theory that the largest unified group of americans by far are unable or unwilling to vote, and of those who can vote, the largest group, again by far, is a group who refuse to participate in the existing system.” I said unable or unwilling to vote, in reference to people who are either not eligible to vote or who refuse. and it is true that even among those who can vote, there are more abstainers than any one party has supporters. simply put, 132 million votes is less than 168 million non-votes, and of those votes, a minority are for the ruling party because a portion go to independents, so obviously the ruling party is authorized by well under a quarter of the people in the US. nothing that I said is in conflict with your statistics, and my assertions stand.

“This also means that 30% approx of eligible voters supported the “ruling party”, in Canadian’ese. And that is more consistent with history that the 15% figure that you apparently pulled out of the air in order to criticize.” I said 15% of people in the country, not eligible voters, however, it’s moot as 30% is still not a majority, so even among eligible voters, my assertion that the government is not representative of a majority stands.

“The Taliban was created by Pakistan’s Benazir Bhutto, along with Mulla Omar and the Maulana Fazlur Rahman as a protection force against Hekmatayr for Pakistanis cotton goods transported thru Afghanistan. I have no idea where you pick up your propaganda and talking points, but you may want to consider changing sources.” I say “essentially created” referring not to the origins of the movement, but to their rise to power, which was caused by the US.

“Yet you make it *your* call to suggest displacing Israelis from land where they have lived among Muslims for generations.” not at all, what I’ve proposed is withdrawing all forms of american support. that is, disabling their american-supplied nuclear weapons, ceasing to provide them with arms, and disallowing trade with the US. if some israelis would be willing and able to choose not to exit the middle east then that really wouldn’t be an american matter.

“Yes, you stand amongst stellar company in your opinions… most of them being terrorists and jihad movements around the world.” it’s almost the entire world but israel itself and a few of the G8 that oppose the movement to force a non-muslim political entity into the middle east. for instance, I have family living in china, and you wouldn’t believe some of the strongly anti-israeli viewpoints that are common there, often resembling genocidal antisemitism, coming from chinese people. I recently visited paris and there was a lot of opposition there, as well. third parties that are not muslim, jewish, american, or otherwise directly invested, are growing increasingly frustrated with israel, just as the occupation of tibet is not winning any popularity contests for china. in fact, it’s really unfortunate that the injection of israel into the middle east may be generating a growing worldwide trend of mistakenly blaming all jewish people. a trend that could result in some pretty scary consequences as america’s might steadily declines.

Scott,

“There was a cease-fire between Hamas and Israel in 2008. There was even a period of peace, but Hamas declared repeatedly that they were going to break the cease-fire, and when they did on 12/19…Israel struck back instead of fleeing.” a cease of what fire? this is one of a sequence of events stretching over half a century, not a random incident that came out of nowhere.

“Israel wasn’t occupying Gaza during the cease-fire. There was peace, and it would have lasted indefinitely but Hamas broke it.” having a western state injected into the area is an unacceptable condition for many.

“No. Israel gets as much foreign aid as Egypt, and while Israel gets some weapons from the US, a lot come from elsewhere or are built in Israel (Merkava tanks, Uzi submachineguns, etc. For a while they even had a main battle tank that was a modified/captured Egyptian tank). Planes and helicopters-mostly from the US, but not the rest of their stuff. I’d be interested to see more on this if you have a link.” egypt receives nothing comparable to what israel receives, no country does. http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html

“…however, PARENTS are responsible for their children. If my kid is throwing rocks at soldiers…I damn well better teach my kid not to. If I have terrorists living in my basement, as a parent in particular, I’m damn well gonna tell em to leave.” the victims are selected at random and have no ability as individuals to protect themselves. opponents of hamas are no more likely to be killed than supporters of hamas. that’s the nature of guerrilla warfare. soldiers embed themselves in the civilian population, making it impossible to kill them without suffering massive civilian casualties. it is a war crime, but to blame the individual civilians for their own deaths is fallacious.

“Where are you getting your casualty figures btw?”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090108/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazaicrcwounded_newsmlmmd – as of jan 8, “Palestinian medics say that more than 700 people have been killed in the Israeli offensive, including 220 children, with a further 3,100 people wounded.” many of the “wounded” are children with missing arms and legs.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/14/israel.gaza/index.html
- jan 14, “Palestinian medical sources said the death toll in the Gaza conflict had risen to 1,010 Palestinians.”

about half of palestine’s population is underaged, so when palestinian civilians are killed, a lot of them are children. also, in the US, a child is anyone under 18, but other countries tend to define a child as a prepubescent, so someone under the age of about 12 or 13. therefore, by the american definition, the number of dead children would be significantly higher.

israel is approaching the halfway point for a human disaster comparable to the WTC attacks, in this round of attacks. though, in this case, many of the victims are children, where very few of the WTC victims were children.

Yes, Justin L, there was a Holocaust,
http://www.isracast.com/article.aspx?ID=994&t=Auschwitz-Plans-Found-in-Berlin
from here…
http://www.isracast.com/category.aspx?ID=7&t=Holocaust-&-Antisemitism

…and the Paleostinkians were in it up to their necks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBFBvceJvIU&
(Oh, yeah, give them Bosnian Muslims a state, genius!)
http://www.ifapray.org/NaziIslamicFacism/NaziIslamicFascism.html
http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3381
http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/mohammedism/mohammedism22.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OcFj5Z0jCQ

@wingless:

Thanks. Nice presentation. Very informative.

@26 Scott,

“I’m not sure whether israel is trying to kill innocent people or not, which is terrifying. I’m also not sure whether the 9/11 attacks in new york were intended to kill innocent people, or simply to demolish a national icon”

Wow – and some people on here think I’m naive!

Hmm let me see – they could of flew into the Statue of Liberty – but that’s quite small and might hit some people. Howabout Mount Rushmore – fairly big and it’s a national icon.

Scott – I don’t agree (ask Yonason) with the set up of modern Israel but it’s here now. If it wasn’t Palestine/Israel it would be something else – like US troops in Saudi Arabia during the gulf war which apparently got Bin Laden upset. These fundamentalist wants to kill as many western non-believers as possible. And they aren’t shy about making that clear. Were those in the middle east including those (not all) Palestinians cheering about 9/11 just because two large towers from the 70s were demolished?

Yes they were after icons – but they wanted to kill as many as possible. If Hamas threw rockets at the country that I was a Prime Minister day in day out – then I too would squash them.

@Justin L:

Wordsmith,

“You don’t like the term…so what term should I use? How’s “appeasement”? Or is that word too inflammatory and insulting? Simplistic?” appeasing the word by letting it manage its own affairs would go a long way to keeping americans safe.

What do you mean “appeasing the word”? That appeasement itself would go a long way to keeping America safe?

“Other than our embassies, how are we imposing U.S. territorial rule in the Middle East?”

providing weapons and funding to israel and other unwanted regimes, a long history of bombing campaigns, working out oil contracts and other deals with tyrants, vetoing various resolutions at the UN, and much, much more.

I’d hardly call Israel an “unwanted regime”. They have shared values and a democratic system of government. Why on earth would we ever abandon Israel in hopes of being liked by those who do not share our values and beliefs?

What you’re saying is you’re not opposed to other nations working out oil contracts and dealing with tyrants, vetoing various UN resolutions, “and so much more”; but you’re opposed to the U.S.

“[[this planet's leaders speak with a nearly unanimous voice in opposition to israel.] Does that make them right?”

I don’t believe in morality, but it is the voice consensus and democracy.]

Can you elaborate more on this? You have me a bit in a labyrinth; show me the thread of thought to follow you here.”

review america’s history of vetoing down UN resolutions. look at who voted for those resolutions. it’s a majority of the world, not just muslim countries. even greece recently turned back a shipment of weapons to israel while the boat was stopped in a greek port. american media refused to report on it, as they black out a lot of international opposition, but you can read about it from international sources if you do a google search.

Interesting, as I actually read quite a bit of anti-Israel press in American media; no question about it in international media.

Again,

I’m not quite seeing your train of thinking; or maybe I am, but am baffled by the moral inversion; or refusal to look at things through a moral lens, but through the lens of moral relativism and a belief that a “voice consensus” equates with “the moral choice”.

If it were left up to “moral” majority/voice consensus, do you think the rest of the world should have a say in American elections? Should we let the rest of the world- the majority opinion- dictate U.S. policies?

“But is that the actual reality of what’s going on? Or is it an issue of perception and perspective? Much of the world you speak of seem to have been fed a heavy does of anti-American propaganda. Do we accept their worldview and capitulate? Or should we try and set the record straight? Or at least give it a more even-handed outlook?” it isn’t a matter of perspective. it isn’t theoretical. american military force is in active use around the world, including the tens of billions of dollars in weapons hand outs to israel each year. american vetoes are keeping the UN silenced. you can verify this, it’s not a matter of dispute or speculation.

I think you’re failing to perceive my point, which is the grievances against Israel and the U.S. is based upon flawed perceptions, slant perspective, and lopsided propaganda.

Yes, American military force is active around the world…..and? So? Do you have an inkling of what our military does on behalf of the rest of the world? No, you don’t. What you only see are the negative “accomplishments”, as seen throught the filter lens of anti-American perceptions, perspective, and propaganda.

How is America’s financial support of Israel unreasonable and unfair, given our financial assist to other foreign nations, including Arab states?

“The UN is dysfunctional and broke. It is an unelected body whose body is comprised of mostly undemocratic states. It is not an institution created of, by, and for the people.” but it isn’t just tyrants and thugs. look at the voting record on resolutions concerning israel. it’s also other G8 players, major countries, countries with infinitely more effective democratic systems and free media than what exists in the US.

What countries have a more “effective democratic system”? Is France’s media much freer than the U.S.? What nations are you referring to, specifically?

I stand by the statement that the UN is dysfunctional. Yes, liberal elitist old Europe and major countries are also part of the problem. 3 out of 4 of the members of the UN are despots, dictators, rogues and terrorists themselves; Old Europe is comprised of appeasers; note, too, that France and Germany weren’t opposed to U.S. invasion of Iraq on “moral grounds”, but upon selfish self-interest in oil contracts and billions owed to them by Saddam (along with Russia and China).

All nations are not created equal. A nation like Sudan can sit on the UN Human Rights Commission. Do you really draw moral equivalence between Sudan and the U.S.? I wouldn’t be surprised if you do see the U.S. on the same moral plane.

If America gave up its superpower status to the “will of the majority” nations, life on planet earth would be further removed from achieving any kind of utopia you may have envisioned for the world.

search for articles about israel in google, and look at articles from media outlets in other major countries. the differences are alarming. for instance, CNN refers to everyone with a government job in palestine as a “hamas operative,” this is similar to referring to every person who worked for the US government under bush as a “republican operative.” or for example, CNN scarcely mentions civilian casualties in palestine and most of their articles omit the fact that a third of those are children. no pictures or shown. media outlets in other countries are reporting the whole truth, specific numbers of casualties, showing pictures, and so on, as a free media is supposed to do, because it’s vitally important to democracy.

Justin, I have a very difficult time believing that CNN international is anything close to being a pro-Israel cheerleader.

What are your examples of credible, free media?

“”Morality” and “right” aren’t in with you, but “moral relativism” is? What if the majority rule supported genocide? Would that make it “ok” with you, because “majority rules” and we should just “go along with it”?” every tyrant claims to be a liberator, claims that their presence is the only thing holding back the slaughter of innocents, and meanwhile, oppresses and slaughters innocents.

There you go again, with the moral relativism and refusal to acknowledge that there is a clear distinction between right and wrong and good and evil.

Do you think the Soviet Union was an evil empire?

america is founded on a rejection of the idea that a small empire from another continent can be entitled to dictate to a third party, under any circumstances. modern US world policing is fundamentally anti-american. in fact, in the last 50 years, the US has slaughtered millions of innocent people and consistently acted to prevent democracy.

Where are you getting this morally inverted perspective from? Noam Chomsky?

“World opinion didn’t save 6 million Jews from the Nazis. It didn’t help 60 million Chinese from being slaughtered by Mao; it isn’t saving genocide in Darfur nor has it freed Tibet.” you oppose the occupation of tibet? a powerful country proving that it controlled another country’s land in ancient times and using military force to seize that land? you oppose that practice?

See earlier link.

“Absolutely astonishing and fascinating. And then what happens? Will the hatred and conflicts end there?” yes, israel would not be a problem if it existed in the continental US. the israeli conflict would finally end in that case, as israel’s current neighbors would neither wish to militarily attack israel, nor would have any hope of doing so.

Ok, and then? Israel took the land and made it prosper. When they relinquished the Gaza Strip, they left behind greenhouses and other agricultural installations. The Palestinians were shown how to use them, and basically inherited a major source of export income. And like so many things, they made a mess of it. In the case of these greenhouses, they were destroyed because they had Jewish cooties.

Without Israel as a scapegoat, I find it hard to believe that the Middle East would suddenly change and be gripped by peace and prosperity.

“Again, what would happen if the U.S. didn’t back anti-communist governments and anti-Islamist secular Muslim governments?” the US does the opposite, it crushes secural movements and imposes shahs and royals. a lack of US policing would certainly mean more peace, more freedom, more democracy.

No, it would mean less freedom, less democracy, more suffering in the world. The U.S. has been thrust into the role of global police. I’d love it if our allies contributed more to military defense and we could withdraw troops from South Korea, Japan, Germany, and all the places on the globe where we are relied upon to keep our allies safe.

“BS. Your assumption is that American interventionism makes things worse. Overall, it has not. Most countries have benefited from American interference. Even where we’ve supported bad dictators, because the alternative would have been a worse regime.” that’s inaccurate. the US supports shahs, pinochets, royals, husseins, typically as an alternative to a democratic government.

Oh yes, we supported Pinochet, a brutal leader who created the most dynamic economy in Latin America and who, under pressure from American government, allowed a referendum on his own power rule in 1988, then gave it up altogether 2 years later. Whereas liberal elites and lefties have no problem with Mao and Castro.

Every one of the “dictators” you think the U.S. installed/supported played a vital role in preventing the other alternative, usually a more ruthless ruler/communist regime. In the case of the deeply pro-American Shah, what took his place when we failed to act (under Carter) to support our ally? A secular democratic movement? No. A more repressive, more brutal regime of Islamic militancy, the legacy of which we face today. That’s what happens when America takes an isolationist foreign policy stance and doesn’t intervene.

in fact, the gaza bombing campaign that happens to slaughter children (400 or so dead now), is an effort to thwart a hostile democratically elected government by simply deposing it, thereby thwarting democracy. US policy is clear: people can vote the way the US wants, or they can’t vote.

Uh…no. Hamas is in the wrong. It is to be held accountable for civilian deaths. We accepted Hamas’s “election” results; we don’t accept their breaking of the cease-fire.

“Not what he’s saying. You blame Israel for the problem. Not the religious/cultural teachings that breed hatred where children are indoctrinated to look at Jews as pigs?” israel’s religiously motivated and ancient land claims are meaningless to me,

They’re meaningless to me as well. But they have claims other than religious. Go back and re-read my link above.

And you’ve side-stepped my point: Islamic radical fundamentalist teachings and culture breeds the hatred for Jews. It isn’t the Israelis who are intolerant, desiring to live in peace. The burden of peace is on the Arabs whose hatred is beyond reason.

“Yes because we’ve made Japan, Germany, the Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Somalia, Serbia subjugated under American colonial oppression and imperialist rule.” hitler was democratically elected and was defeated on his own soil by russia,

Russia couldn’t have defeated Hitler without U.S. aid and supplies; defeating Hitler’s Germany was a combined effort.

Now since you seem to consider “democratic majority rule” to be the apex of “morality”, I suppose you don’t see a problem with Hitler’s rise to power, anymore than you do Hamas? Because who are you to judge? Who are you to say what’s right and what’s wrong? What’s good and what’s evil? Are there no “bad decisions”, so long as majority decides?

and japan didn’t experience regime change in response to US terrorist genocide.

Ah, I see…so dropping the A-Bombs amounted to “U.S. terrorist genocide”? In conventional warfare between states, the people who support their armies are part of the war effort.

iraq and afghanistan are currently subject to US administration and occupation, in the sense that their governments answer to US commanders who have extensive forces in their countries.

These are sovereign nations whose governments are still in their infant stage and welcome U.S., Coalition, UN, and NATO assist. Do you notice decisions made by those governments that conflict with what our government desires? Hardly puppet regimes.

“Yes, we, like Israel, do nothing more than bomb innocent people and overthrow brutal regimes peaceful governments benign to their people.” you also sponsor dictators and use them to access oil and other resources

Redundant point already addressed. Since you “no-sold” the link to my post earlier, I’ll reprint it here in its entirety (you’re welcome!):

An Afghan woman holds a U.S. flag during a ceremony in Kabul marking the donation of more than 5000 wheelchairs to Afghanistan, September 22, 2003.
REUTERS/Ahmad Masood

Ted Turner and Jane Fonda must be political soul mates.

From a transcript of Bill O’Reilly’s interview with Ted Turner:

O’REILLY: All right. Is America a good country?

TURNER: Oh, it’s a great country.

O’REILLY: Are we exploitative overseas? Is the war on terrorism largely our fault?

TURNER: No, I wouldn’t say largely. But I think if we stopped bombing people and sent doctors and scientists and engineers around the world that we’d make a lot more progress, and we wouldn’t have near as much terrorism in the world as we do. I think bombing just makes people angry, and they want to bomb you back.

Uh…yeah…that’s all our military does is carry out American foreign policy objectives of “bombing people”; not bombing terrorists…not bombing America’s enemies…but “people”.

Here’s a little education for Ted Turner, by way of a Hugh Hewitt interview with Robert Kaplan:

HH: You know, I want to begin in the 9th chapter of this, your second book on the American military, as you were driving out of Timbuktu, 11 hours beyond the gates of Timbuktu. Use that as a metaphor for what you were doing and why you went the places you have gone.

RK: Well, Timbuktu is not the edge of the Earth. The edge of the Earth is miles beyond Timbuktu, north into the heart of the Sahara desert. And I was with a company of American Special Forces officers, about twelve of them, all non-commissioned officers except for a captain. And you would think what is the U.S. military doing in the heart of the Sahara desert. Well, we’re not only in the heart of the Sahara desert, we’re all over the Pacific ocean, we’ll all over South America, and all this is occurring while we are fighting a war in Iraq and in Afghanistan. And what I tried to do in the course of the years in which I embedded with the military was to show the whole thing. Not to ignore Iraq, but not to be limited by it, either, because one big deployment might overstretch us like Iraq, but dozens upon dozens of smaller deployments will do no such thing. So I was with a company of American Special Forces officers who were investigating just what was in the center of the Sahara desert in terms of al Qaeda movements, humanitarian, prospects for humanitarian relief, just getting to know Africa. Because in this global world war on terrorism, really is a global war.

HH: Now your accompanied by, extraordinary in the course of this book, an extraordinary array of Americans, one of which on this particular trip is an Evangelical staff sergeant from Oklahoma who doesn’t want to be identified, because he doesn’t want his deeds to serve himself. I thought that was another metaphor for the extraordinary people you’ve spent the last many years with.

RK: Yeah, the people I…what I did was I didn’t report on anybody in this book. I befriended a lot of people, and revealed them to the reader as they revealed themselves to me. And the best of these people didn’t want any publicity, not because they were afraid of being written up badly, but because they were afraid of getting public recognition for anything they do. For them, the real sweet thing is to do it and not get recognition, if you can believe it. And this Evangelical staff sergeant, he drove most of the way through blistering sandstorms, he slept only six hours, which was interrupted by an hour and a half of guard duty, and he got up the next morning to fit little African children for eyeglasses as part of a civil affairs project that this Special Forces A-team was doing. And just, you know, just dealt with one child, one woman after another throughout the morning without any complaining about lack of sleep or anything.

HH: Let me tell the audience, this is a remarkable read, you’re going to want to get Hog Pilots, Blue Water Grunts, and just an example of detail, “Following sun up, Captain Tory, an Evangelical staff sergeant from Oklahoma, set up an eye clinic inside one of the ruins. They unpack little boxes of adaptable eyewear, an ingenious, low-tech device manufactured by the U.S. Agency for International Development. These were round, Harry Potterish horn-rimmed glasses of zero prescription which increasingly strengthened as you pumped a clear gel solution attached to the frame inside the glass. The SF, Special Forces guys called them, ‘never get laid again glasses,’ because of how they made you look.” Now that has got an eye for detail, pardon the pun, Robert Kaplan, but I guess it is in those very small things, as well as the B-2’s that we’ll talk about later, that the genius in the American military lies.

RK: Yeah, it all lies in the details. For the price of one F-22, you could populate all of Africa with SF-A teams doing humanitarian relief. But that is not necessarily a criticism of an F-22, because I get that later in the book when I talk about the B-2 and other expensive bombers, which are sort of an expensive form of health insurance to keep the Chinese honest about their intentions in Taiwan. But you know, we get bargains in our military budget, and we don’t. The B-2’s, the F-22’s, there’s no bargains there. But in terms of what we can do on the ground in a place like Africa, we get a lot of bargains like this deployment that I embedded on.

Extracted from a post targeted at Paul Bearers:

In an interview with Hugh Hewitt, Robert Kaplan says,

people have this image of the U.S. military going all over the world as a busybody, propping up dictatorships. It’s so false. In fact, the only regimes we prop up through training missions are of certified democracies, certified by Congress, which we have not imposed on them, that they’ve evolved organically on their own as democracies.

The Savage Wars of Peace, by Max Boot:

Far from being isolationist before World War II and the formation of NATO, America from the very beginning of the Republic intervened in a nearly continual series of civil wars, coups, and hostage rescues. Starting with attacks on the Barbary Coast pirates between 1801 and 1805, the nation has always interfered in other nations’ business far from home.

Two generations of college students have been taught that all such “adventurism” is nothing but imperialism and running-dog capitalism–and Boot does not deny that states naturally send in their forces out of national interest rather than mere idealism. But he shows that the majority of the time the Marines intervened to stop the slaughter of civilians, to retaliate against the killing of Americans and destruction of their property, and to prevent chaos from spreading beyond a country’s borders. While such incursions often served the local property-owning elites and corrupt grandees, such interventionists as Thomas Jefferson, Chester A. Arthur, and Teddy Roosevelt assumed that order and stable governments were usually preferable to mass uprisings, constant revolution, and mob rule.

When natural disasters strike, what does America do? Take advantage of another nation’s misfortune, or come to its rescue, using American military might while draining American taxpayer coffers and making private donations to charities? We did this for earthquake relief in Iran, 2003 just being one year’s example of this:

In the latest U.S. shipment, an American military plane carrying 80 personnel and medical supplies landed early Tuesday in the provincial capital of Kerman. The team reached Bam, 120 miles to the southeast, by midday.

Seven U.S. Air Force C-130 cargo planes have already delivered 150,000 pounds of relief supplies — including blankets, medical supplies and water — making the United States one of the largest international donors.

Pakistan:

Pakistan earthquake relief, the ‘Great Satan’s’ military has delivered 94 tons medical supplies, 1,939 tons of humanitarian supplies, 1,582 tons of equipment, evacuated 15,794 victims..provided doctors, nurses, medicine…..

In addition, we donated a mobile hospital:

WASHINGTON, Feb. 16, 2006 – The United States today transferred the 212th Mobile Army Surgical Hospital, the last unit of its kind in the U.S. Army, to the Pakistan government for continued use in earthquake relief efforts, a Defense Department spokesman said.
The 84-bed hospital, which arrived in Muzaffarabad shortly after the earthquake struck the country on Oct. 8, is valued at $4.6 million, according to the U.S. Embassy in Pakistan.

The hospital consists of the following:

* Primary health care and emergency medical treatment section;
* Surgical suite with two operating tables and sterilization equipment;
* Two intensive care units; I
* Intermediate care ward;
* Minimal care ward;
* Pharmacy;
* Laboratory;
* Radiology units;
* Medical maintenance work area with a supply of repair parts;
* Power-generation system for the entire hospital; and
* Storage containers for packing and moving the hospital.

The hospital has treated more than 20,000 patients and provided about 20,000 vaccinations to about 8,000 patients since October. After the transfer, the American medical personnel will return to their home base in Miesau, Germany, and the Pakistani military will take over the hospital, according to the embassy.

In further progress toward the end of U.S. military relief efforts in Pakistan this spring, the U.S. Navy turned over $2.5 million worth of construction equipment to Pakistan military engineers Feb. 13. The equipment includes three D-7 bulldozers, a 15-ton dump truck, nine 20-ton dump trucks, seven 100-kilowatt generators and four generator skids, according to the embassy.

The U.S. also is donating its two forward-area refueling point systems to the Pakistan government to increase helicopter efficiency during reconstruction.

The U.S. military has been on the ground in Pakistan since Oct. 10, providing relief after a 7.6 magnitude earthquake struck the Kashmir region in northern Pakistan Oct. 8, killing more than 70,000 citizens, injuring more than 60,000 and leaving more than 3 million homeless. At the peak of initial relief efforts, more than 1,200 personnel and 25 helicopters provided vital transport, logistics, and medical and engineering support in the affected areas.

Today, 600 U.S. servicemembers continue to provide aviation, medical and engineering assistance to relief and reconstruction efforts.

the 2004 tsunami…

WALL OF WATER
U.S. Troops Aid Tsunami Victims

American forces began 2005 by helping people on the other side of the globe. Within hours of the Dec. 26, 2004, earthquake and tsunami that devastated large swaths of the Indian Ocean region, U.S. troops were mobilizing to help. Thousands of servicemembers rang in the New Year in the region or were mobilizing to go there.

U.S. Pacific Command had immediately begun planning the U.S. and international response. Military leaders communicated directly with U.S. ambassadors and senior military officers in Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Thailand, among other countries.

As Jan. 1, 2005, dawned, the USS Abraham Lincoln Carrier Strike Group was afloat off the Indonesian island of Sumatra , and the ship’s 17 helicopters and aircrews were flying relief supplies to survivors in devastated areas. The USS Bonhomme Richard Expeditionary Strike Group, with support ships and 25 helicopters, had almost arrived from Guam. Pre-positioned ships full of supplies had left Japan, Guam and Diego Garcia en route to the region. And Joint Task Force 536, soon to be renamed Combined Support Force 536, was already operating in Utapao, Thailand.

“Like in so many places, those who wear our uniform are showing the great decency of America . I appreciate your compassion. I appreciate your love for your fellow human beings and thank you for the work you do.”
President George W. Bush

“One thing the Indonesians are never going to forget is who was there first,” U.S. Ambassador to Indonesia B. Lynn Pascoe said a few weeks later during a visit to the Lincoln.

Within days, more than 15,000 U.S. military members were in Southeast Asia assisting relief and recovery efforts under Operation Unified Assistance, the name given the post-tsunami relief efforts focused on Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Thailand.

“If you look at the front pages of many papers, you’ll see pictures of U.S. military people rescuing people, delivering food and water, assisting with emergency medical types of assistance,” Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said in a Jan. 4 radio interview.

The U.S. response was massive, immediate and comprehensive. At least 17 Navy ships and a Coast Guard cutter were in the region or en route within a week.

“Like in so many places, those who wear our uniform are showing the great decency of America, ” President Bush said Jan. 10 of the humanitarian efforts. “I appreciate your compassion. I appreciate your love for your fellow human beings and thank you for the work you do.”

Military medical assets proved invaluable in many ways. USNS Mercy, a floating trauma center with the capacity to house up to 1,000 hospitalized patients, departed its home base in San Diego Jan. 5. For six weeks the ship was supporting the operation with more than 500 U.S. Navy and nongovernmental organization medical staff, volunteers, uniformed Public Health Service members, and Navy support personnel. Mercy’s personnel conducted a wide range of medical and dental assistance programs ashore and afloat, performing 19,512 medical procedures, including 285 surgeries.

Many more were helped through the efforts of environmental and preventive medicine specialists. Military epidemiologists, entomologists, hygienists, microbiologists and others tested water, soil and air samples

for diseases and contaminants to ensure the safety of aid workers and displaced local residents. The teams helped identify and treat contaminated wells, killed flies and mosquitoes in large areas, and trapped and removed rats from displaced-persons camps.

“We know that we touched many, many people – more than 50,000 directly, with a larger lasting impact – with efforts of the preventive medicine unit … and the friends that we made,” Navy Capt. Dave Llewellyn, Mercy commander, said as the ship was transiting home.

Navy oceanographers conducted safety and navigation surveys of the ocean and coastlines in the region. “The tsunami wiped out tons of shoreline,” said Forrest Noll, a scientist with the Naval Oceanographic Office in Stennis, Miss. “It changed the landscape drastically.”

In a more colorful description of the devastation, Navy Petty Officer 1st Class David Loiselle said, “It looked like somebody had just taken a giant Weedwacker to the entire coast.”

Loiselle, an aviation warfare systems operator aboard the Lincoln , said the relief work was one of his most rewarding experiences. “My single biggest gratitude is rescuing people,” he said. “I’d much rather do that than (be) shooting people.”

Other military support included:

• USS Fort McHenry, a dock landing ship that left Sasebo , Japan , Jan. 2, delivered more than 1.2 million pounds of water, food items and clothes. Fort McHenry also delivered more than 2,000 pounds of supplies personally collected by communities within Fleet Activities Sasebo.

• Hundreds of Marine Corps engineers and Navy Seabees helped Sri Lankans repair infrastructure and clear debris. Some debris cleared from the island was used to reconstruct a sea wall.

• Army engineers deployed to Thailand to help rebuild roads, bridges and power infrastructure.

• Several teams of military forensics experts, including anthropologists, dentists and mortuary affairs specialists, helped manage the overwhelming numbers of bodies.
Officials estimate roughly 300,000 people died in the disaster, and more than 1.1 million people were displaced. The statistics regarding U.S. relief efforts are also staggering. According to U.S. Pacific Command information, U.S. military flights in the region included:

• About 70 reconnaissance-assessment flights, resulting in roughly 570 hours flying time;

• More than 1,300 fixed-wing aircraft flights, resulting in more than 4,635 hours flying time; and

• More than 2,200 helicopter flights, resulting in more than 4,870 hours flying time.

In all, U.S. Pacific Command assets delivered or coordinated delivery of more than 24 million pounds of relief supplies and equipment into the region by Feb. 14, when Combined Support Force 536 ceased operations.

time and time again, America has used its military interventionism on behalf of humanity.

“Like in so many places, those who wear our uniform are showing the great decency of America . I appreciate your compassion. I appreciate your love for your fellow human beings and thank you for the work you do.”- President George W. Bush

Ok, maybe Ted Turner was referring to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan where al-Qaeda and the Taliban brutalized the populace, and we “stayed the course” there to train native security forces and serve and protect innocent civilians and budding democracies at the expense of American blood and treasure, along with our Coalition partners.

Here are examples of the evil that American soldiers do, terrorizing the “native brown people”:

The Best Medicine

A U.S. Army Soldier from Charlie Company, 4th Battalion, 9th Infantry Regiment, 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, from Ft. Lewis, Wash., shares a laughs with an Iraqi army soldier at a U.S. and Iraqi Army security checkpoint in Tarmiyah, Iraq, Sept. 25, 2007. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication 2nd Class Summer M. Anderson.

Pride

U.S. Army Sgt. Quenton Sallows hands out Iraqi Flags to Iraqi children beginning their first day of school in Lutafiyah, Iraq, Oct. 1, 2007. Sallows is assigned to Civil Affairs, 2nd Battalion, 15th Field Artillery Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry). U.S. Air Force photo by Staff Sgt. Quinton Russ.

Nice to Meet You

U.S. Marine Corps Cpl. Julia Venegas, from 2nd Marine Logistics Group, shakes hands with a little girl in the village of Kabani, Iraq, while on a security patrol Sept. 28, 2007. U.S. Marine Corps photo taken by Lance Cpl. Robert S. Morgan.

One Size Fits Most

A U.S. Army Soldier of 1st Battalion, 38th Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division plays with a young Iraqi boy in Mufriq, Iraq, Oct. 8, 2007. U.S. Air Force photo by Staff Sgt. Shawn Weismiller.

School Days

Iraqi girls walk to a primary school in the Andaloos district of Fallujah, Iraq, Oct. 17, 2007, to receive school supplies from U.S. Marines and Iraqi police. U.S. Marine Corps photo by Sgt. Robert B. Brown Jr.

Junior Heroes

The students at an elementary school in Jerf Al-Mila hold up their ‘Junior Hero’ stickers after taking an oath to become honorary Junior Heroes during a visit to the school by Iraqi Army Soldiers from the 3rd Battalion, 2nd Brigade, 9th Iraqi Army Division (mechanized), Oct. 17. The Junior Hero program was designed by the Iraqi security forces to teach children about the roles of the Iraqi Army and Iraqi police who work in their communities and ways in which they can volunteer to keep their villages free of crime. Photo by Staff Sgt. Jon Cupp, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division Public Affairs

A Sucker for Children

U.S. Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Patrick K. Mason, a squad leader for 1st Platoon, Alpha Company, 1st Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, hands a lollipop to an Iraqi boy during a security patrol in Dulab, Iraq, Sept. 25, 2007. The Marines are working with Iraqi police in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom in the Al Anbar province of Iraq. U.S. Marine Corps photo by Cpl. Shane S. Keller.

Check out the American soldier menacing an Iraqi girl:

Jan. 13, 2008: A U.S. soldier plays with a young girl during a patrol in Baghdad.
Jewel Samad – AFP/Getty Images

U.S. Army Capt. Charles Ford plays a video game with seven-year-old Wa’ad, who lost an arm and a leg to an improvised bomb, during a visit to the child’s home near Muqdadiyah, Iraq. U.S. soldiers from Hammer Company are arranging for the child to be fitted with prosthetic limbs.
Maya Alleruzzo-AP

U.S. Army 2nd. Lt. Hunter Wakeland is seen on patrol with local Iraqi police in Abu Tshir, Baghdad on September 10, 2008. You Witness News/U.S. Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class Joan E. Kretschmer

A young Iraqi girl embraces Capt. Janet Rose assigned to the 431st Civil Affairs Battalion, at the Baqouba Women and Children’s Hospital, June 9, 2007.

A boy seeks shelter behind a U.S. soldier as gunshots ring out following a car bomb explosion in Baghdad. At least 21 were killed in the bombing and 66 wounded, police and hospital officials said.
Khalid Mohammed- AP

Gee…is that Iraqi boy running to the terrible imperialist occupier for any particular reason?

This photo, which appeared on the front page of this morning’s edition of The New York Times, shows an Iraqi boy taking cover behind a U.S. soldier as civilians fled the sound of gunshots following a suicide bombing yesterday in central Baghdad that killed at least 21 people and wounded 66 others.Photo taken by Khalid Mohammed, AP

It seems the boy understands who to run to for protection…

A U.S. soldier of Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 5th Cavalry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 1st Infantry Division hands a soccer ball to a young boy in the Amariyah neighborhood of west Baghdad, Iraq Tuesday, July 31, 2007. (AP Photo/Petr David Josek)

PLAY PALS
U.S. Army Sgt. Jason Rex plays with an Iraqi boy during a neighborhood presence patrol in Malha, Iraq, Dec. 12, 2008. Rex is assigned to 25th Infantry Division’s Company D, 2nd Battalion, 27th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team.
U.S. Army photo by Sgt. Kani Ronningen

To paraphrase Ted Turner, “All we do is bomb people“…

U.S. soldiers from Task Force 2-116 Armor’s headquarters company watch Iraqi children dangle from their new monkey bars after their installation at the orphanage in Kirkuk, Iraq, Aug. 19, 2005. U.S. Army Sgt. Fenton Doyle constructed the playground equipment


U.S. soldiers from Task Force 2-116 Armor’s headquarters company swing Iraqi children after installing their new swing set at the orphanage in Kirkuk, Iraq, Aug. 19, 2005. U.S. Army Sgt. Fenton Doyle constructed the playground equipment from old humvee parts

U.S. Army 1st Sgt. Micheal Green, with Company C, 1st Battalion, 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, is followed by Iraqi children while patrolling the streets of Bayji, Iraq, Sept. 16, 2006. U.S. Army photo by Spc. Joshua R. Ford

U.S. Army Spc. Sam Rogers, with Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 48th Brigade Combat Team, receives a hug from a young Iraqi girl who is overjoyed with her new shoes. Rogers helped deliver donated shoes to the Abu Tubar School near An Nasiriyah

Thanks, Mike (my post):

Scott Southworth, right, is seen with his adopted son, Ala’a, July 19, 2007, in the home in Mauston, Wis. Southworth first met Ala’a, who has cerebral palsy, at the Mother Teresa orphanage in Baghdad in 2003 while he was serving in Iraq.
(AP Photo/Andy Manis)


HERO HUGS
A U.S. Army soldier receives farewell hugs from a group of boys living in a Palestinian community in eastern Baghdad, Iraq, Sept. 14, 2008. The soldier is assigned to the 10th Mountain Division’s Company C, 2nd Battalion, 30th Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team. His unit, along with Iraqi National Police, handed out humanitarian aid bags to foster good relations with the Palestinian community and the Iraqi Security Forces during Ramadan.
U.S. Army photo by Staff Sgt. Brian D. Lehnhardt

Check out the American Air Force medic bullying the Afghan boy:

U.S. Air Force medic Gary Horn arm-wrestles with a boy during a visit to a school in Shahr e Safa in Zabul province, Afghanistan.Goran Tomasevic, Reuters

04/08/07 – U.S. Army Sgt. 1st Class Ed Franco plays with local refugee children in Dar Ul Aman, Kabul, Afghanistan, April 8, 2007, in support of a volunteer community reach program.

04/08/07 – Maj. Shawn Haney, U.S. Marine Corps, plays with a local refugee child during a volunteer community outreach program in Dar Ul Aman, Kabul, Afghanistan, on April 8, 2007.


04/08/07 – A U.S. Air Force Airman holds a local refugee child in Dar Ul Aman, Kabul, Afghanistan, April 8, 2007, in support of a volunteer community reach program.

GRATEFUL KISS
A grateful refugee camp resident in Kabul, Afghanistan, kisses U.S. Navy Lt. Cmdr. (Dr.) Yevsey Goldberg, who helped bring more than 550-kilograms of rice and other supplies, Dec. 6, 2008. Goldberg is deployed to International Security Assistance Force Headquarters.
U.S. Navy photo by Petty Officer 2nd Class Aramis Ramirez

Back to the Turner interview:

O’REILLY: Because there is, you know, there’s one man who’s done more for the continent of Africa than any other man in the history of civilization. Do you know who that man is?

TURNER: Nelson Mandela?

O’REILLY: No. President Bush has saved more lives, sent more money, and provided more medical care for the citizens of all the countries of Africa than any human being that’s ever lived. Yet, you just said send the doctors, send this, send that and the world will like us better and there won’t be as much terrorism. We have done that. And not only in Africa, but around the world. The world does not look upon George Bush as a hero and neither do you.

TURNER: No, I think he made a lot of mistakes, too. But you can’t — but he did some good things, and I think basically he’s got a good heart.

I mentioned some of Bush’s liberal accomplishments in Africa, before. Danny Huddleston at American Thinker says President Bush’s approval rating in Africa is 80%:

Also, few people are aware of the help Bush has provided to Africa. He has an astonishing approval rating of 80% on that continent. The NY Sun reported on this back in February:

President Bush’s sense of mission to improve the lives of the people of the Middle East has attracted so much attention that the Wall Street Journal called him “Bush of Arabia” the other day over an article by Fouad Ajami. Less widely appreciated are Mr. Bush’s achievements in Africa, which are worth marking as the president embarks today on a visit that is scheduled to include trips to Benin, Tanzania, Rwanda, Ghana, and Liberia. Mr. Bush has committed $15 billion to fight AIDS and HIV in Africa, and the result is that the number of Africans benefiting from anti-retroviral drugs has soared to 1.3 million today from 50,000 a few years ago. A similar effort is under way to fight malaria, with similarly promising results.

Mr. Bush hasn’t gotten much credit for this among the American public, but, as a BBC interviewer noted yesterday, his approval rating in Africa is in the 80% range, which is astonishingly high. [....]

Asked about all this yesterday, Mr. Bush characteristically looked beyond the poll numbers to the broader principles. “I believe to whom much is given, much is required. It happens to be a religious notion. But, it should be a universal notion as well,” the president said. “I believe America’s soul is enriched, our spirit is enhanced when we help people who suffer.”

President Bush, America, our military interference “policing” the world, has done more good on behalf of the “global community” than harm.

U.S. Army Spc. Danielle Deal visits with a student at the Djibouti City School in Djibouti after handing out school supplies collected by Combined Joint Task Force – Horn of Africa on Dec. 2, 2006. Deal is deployed with Bravo Company, 489th Civil Action Battalion

U.S. Navy Lt. Cmdr. Jeff Weitz walks holding hands with two children who live in a tent city set up by Combined Joint Task Force-Horn of Africa after severe flooding in Dire Dawa, Ethiopia, on Dec. 2, 2006.

“You give him back his son,” says Steve Muth. “His son’s going to be fine. You can see it in their eyes. They’re not going to forget you. They’re not going to forget you’re from where you’re from. It will be two generations. They’ll still be saying, ‘you know, when you were a kid, it was the Americans that came after the earthquake.’ They won’t forget.” -Bob Simon 60 Minutes segment reporting on NYC Paramedics Saving Lives in Pakistan, in wake of the 2005 earthquake.

@GaffaUK:

“If it wasn’t Palestine/Israel it would be something else – like US troops in Saudi Arabia during the gulf war which apparently got Bin Laden upset. These fundamentalist wants to kill as many western non-believers as possible. And they aren’t shy about making that clear”

Precisely, and well said.

Here’s a Jewish approach, some of which you might even find yourself in agreement with….
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/668896/jewish/Whos-Protecting-America.htm

israel……………..
you are screwed