Ok, get your scorecards ready, and try to determine WHERE the Democratic Party, America’s Congressional leaders, America’s incoming President, and his administration stand on this issue.
Pres-elect Obama (long labeled as indecisive by his detractors) has not commented on Israel’s counterattacks against Hamas in Gaza. Before being elected he was both an advocate of peace and a supporter of Israel’s right to defend itself. The rocket attacks that preceded Israel’s counterattack have been going on since 2002, and talks have never prevented them.
Senator Clinton (D) (Obama’s pick for Secretary of State) backs Israel’s counterattacks and dismissed diplomatic talks with Hamas.
“negotiating with Hamas is unacceptable for the United States.”
Fmr CENTCOM commander and failed Mideast envoy, Gen. Anthony Zinni thinks she’s wrong, and he says Obama’s Admin should start talks asap.
“The old way of using envoys and summits and us putting plans on the table — that has never worked. I think we need a fresh start, more involved, a greater presence on the ground and a commitment to do it throughout the term of an administration,” Zinni said.
Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D) blames Israel for the violence, ignores Hamas’ thousands of rocket attacks, and calls for a U.N. investigation.
“All this was, and is, disproportionate, indiscriminate mass violence in violation of international law,” Kucinich said in a statement. “Israel is not exempt from international law and must be held accountable.”
Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D) does recognize the thousands of Hamas rockets that have been launched into civilian areas in Israel, and thus does not blame Israel.
Pelosi and other Democrats have refrained from criticizing Israel’s government, which has responded to the Hamas attacks with a rocket assault on Gaza. “Peace between Israelis and Palestinians cannot result from daily barrages of rocket and mortar fire from Hamas-controlled Gaza,” Pelosi said in a statement posted on the Speaker’s website on Monday.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D) agrees that the onus for the past 4 days of violence rests w Hamas-NOT Israel.
Reid said he “strongly” supported Israel’s right to defend its citizens from the Hamas rocket attacks and to restore its security. He also blamed Hamas for any humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip. “Hamas’s failure to stop these attacks only exacerbates the humanitarian situation for the residents of Gaza and undermines efforts to attain peace and security in the region.”
Rep. Howard Berman (D) (chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee) also blames Hamas-not Israel.
“The loss of innocent life is a terrible tragedy, and the blame for that tragedy lies with Hamas.”
Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D) also blames Hamas.
“Hamas is abusing the people of Gaza by using their homes as a base for terror operations,” he said. “The world should no longer tolerate a terrorist government in the Gaza Strip.”
Former Congresswoman and renown police slapper, Cynthia McKinney (D) took a different approach. She loaded up a yacht w supplies and tried to help out the Palestinians. Unfortunately for her and her friends, the boat was stopped by the Israelis.
4 days into the Israeli air campaign+blockade, and President-elect Obama STILL hasn’t made a comment in support of Israel’s right to defend itself against Hamas’ rocket attacks, in favor of talking with the political arm of the terrorist group, or in against Israel and in support of a U.N. investigation into Israel’s alleged violation of international law and genocidal war. Foreign affairs legend, Vice President-elect Joe Biden (D), has also been silent on the matter (though with his tendency to gaffe, this might have saved lives).
He hasn’t even voted PRESENT. The Democrats’ Congress is clearly split. Policy advisors and leaders are confused as to whether or not to even talk w Hamas, and President-elect himself is apparently dazed and unable to lead or even make a statement while on vacation.
Apparently THIS is leadership.
THIS, is the 21st Century Democratic Party.
Author of “Reparations and America’s 2nd Civil War
Reparations and America’s 2nd Civil War: Malensek, Scott: 9798864028674: Amazon.com: Books
James Robbins really succinctly destroyed the ‘disproportionate’ argument at http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDRiNWU3NDJjZWI4NjQ0Y2MyNDFhOTQxNDRmMTU5Y2U=
I think it was simplesomething trying to compare Bush’s reference to Russia v Georgia as disproportionate. The above definition makes it real clear – Russia claimed to have a goal of securing a pipeline and instead took control of (and destroyed much of) some cities. “More than necessary to be effective” at reaching the stated goal.
Could not have said it better, MrObson. I echo Mike… thank you for the link and cogent input.
Hamas asked for it, now they got it. Hamas uses the same tactics AQI used in Iraq. Fire on our troops from civilian homes, get fired at by our guys, then feed the always welcoming sorry-ass MSM stories of Americans indiscriminately killing civilians. Same old story, same old song, same old lies.
And by the way, if Israel means what it says when calling it a war, boots on the ground are the only answer. Been proven too many times that air power can’t win a war. If they go into Gaza on foot, it’s going to be real bloody, but that might be the only answer.
Oh, and by the way, “Glistening Pecs” votes “Present” on this matter.
MrObson: Thanks for that link to NRO.
While I was over there I checked out this from Michael Ledeen:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NWViYTRlYmEzNmNmN2VkNGQzNzExZjBjMjY0YjQ2Yzg=
It discusses Iran’s role in all this and how a number of Arab governments would be just fine with Israel wiping out Hamas even if they say the opposite in public.
And for all those governments or individuals who are now condemning Israel for it’s actions, I would ask where they were all those years when Hamas was firing rockets into Israel targeting civilians?
Why Israel Fights
The Gaza attacks highlight Israel’s skepticism of world opinion. Ever since there arose in Egypt a pharaoh who knew not Joseph, these people have found few allies.
We consider the Holocaust as 6 million dead Jews compared to our population, but they remember just over 9 million resided in all Europe. In this country about 185 million people would need to be murdered, incinerated, and consigned to landfills. They remember Nazi’s could not have been so efficient without apathy or active cooperation from majorities of people in the occupied countries. They also remember Abba Eban’s U.N. observer experience. He was told bluntly that 6 million dead Jews had bought him only two years tolerance for efforts transforming the Balfour Declaration into the new Israeli state.
In current confrontations, Israeli’s understand selective moral outrage leads to their worldwide condemnation. Israel is castigated for killing civilians, while Articles 28 and 29 of the Fourth Geneva Convention say terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah and Hammas are responsible for those deaths. These civilians qualify as Protected Persons within terrorist control, and civilian presence cannot be used to render certain points and areas immune from military operations.
Expect Israel to follow it’s own council as to necessary self-defense actions. The Gaza actions demonstrate Israel will probably again enforce U.N. nuclear non-proliferation principles at their chosen time. A 5,000-mile flight to Iran is no problem for 100 determined men who are committed to a one-way mission, and who properly understand the lessons of Jewish history.
Dore Gold with the facts:
Did Israel Use “Disproportionate Force” In Gaza
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=1&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=378&PID=0&IID=2808&TTL=Did_Israel_Use_“Disproportionate_Force”_in_Gaza?
Patrick Buchanan gets beat up a bit in the comment section for his opinion–his opinion is more in line with Zinni.
Bush, Obama and the Gaza Blitz
http://townhall.com/Columnists/PatrickJBuchanan/2008/12/30/bush,_obama_and_the_gaza_blit?page=full&comments=true
I had that archived the Dore Gold piece to do a small original post on it, Missy…. oddly enuf in tandem with Pat’s article as “the other side”.
But now you’ve saved me that time! Thank you so very much. Ahhh… great minds think alike… LOL
So, Missy, do you think Buchanan is wrong here:
Did Israel escalate violence for herself in the next 10 years or more, in short-term and long-term?
@simply done:
I rescued two dogs last summer down at our farm four days before I was to return home. Knowing if I left them in the community the area farmers would have killed them I frantically worked to find a solution. Fortunately I found a no-kill rescue shelter 40 miles away that would take them in. Unfortunately, my dog wound up with fleas so I had to treat him, my car and my home with some pretty harsh stuff to get rid of them. Had I left it go our neighbor dogs and homes would have suffered the same fate.
I view Hamas as vermine Israel has to take care of, if they don’t rid the community of the vermine that has no qualms about risking the lives of innocent people simply because they hate, Israel’s problem is not going away, it will become worse. Negotiating with Hamas is futile, their own government is calling for them to knock it off, they aren’t listening. Instead they are recruiting more bodies/fodder much like al Qaeda did before their end in Iraq. Next will be the mentally ill and children suicide bombers until the Palestinians figure out that it is Hamas that is responsible for their miserable lives.
Israel has tried, Palestinians cross over into Israel to work, Palestinians live in Israel, they also know their lives don’t mean much in the eyes of Hamas. The Hamas/vermine aren’t interested in a peaceful co-existance with Israel and are ruining the lives of their people and the Israelis well know what they have to do.
Simply done, I noticed you had no comment about the Dore Gold contribution, why? I do hope Mata will do the thread she planned.
I didn’t comment on the Gold piece since it requires an exposition unrelated to the tread, Missy. If Gold’s piece is posted, I’ll reply.
Yet, on a different note, I don’t understand something, what is it that the “Israels have to do”, as you say? That is, since this is a military mission, what is their military goal …What “do they have to do”?
I ask this, because, I can’t see a clear goal, and actually, many don’t see one; it gets too muddled up with stoked anti-Israel sentiments in an already unstable region.
So, what are, on balance, the practical consequences of this military action for Israel, are they beneficial, or harmful?
Beneficial, their goal is to rid the area of the element/Hamas that threatens their well being. By conducting this military excursion, it shows Hamas and the people in Gaza that the *behavior of Hamas* has consequences those consequences cause the people in Gaza misery and death. Eventually Palestinians will reject Hamas like the Sunnis rejected al Qaeda. imho.
I also believe if Israel had stuck to their guns and not caved to public pressure with Hezbollah, Hamas would not have broken the ceasefire. From what I’ve read, in spite of pressure from the UN, Sarkozy, etc., the Israeli spokesperson says they aren’t caving this time. Lesson learned.
What do you think of yesterday’s Q and A between Reuters and B. Netayyahu:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUKLU149639
He doesn’t sound as if the goal is going to be achieved in this military conflict, and the “goal” is more to stop “future rockets”.
I don’t think, as do many others, that the goal was worth it.
Now if they start a ground assault, they, one, further risk politically alienating Israel with her Arab neighbors, two, still won’t achieve ‘your’ goal of toppling Hamas (as they can’t do a “gorilla war” in Gaza), and three, escalate the violence for years to come.
alienating Arab neighbors? Nah.
Syria ain’t gonna ever be nice
Jordan ain’t gonna be too bad
Iran-doesn’t dare get more belligerent
Egypt…they don’t want the Palestinians leaving Gaza and flooding Egypt (let alone losing THEIR U.S. aid
Israel might alienate Arab neighbors….man, that’s like saying some action risks destroying the MidEast peace process and turning the region into chaos. It’s already there.
Tell us, Simply Done, what exactly would you have Israel do? Typical of critics, you just complain and never suggest.
Scott, first you say Israel won’t further alienate their neighbors, they you say, essentially, the place can’t get any worse.
But it is getting worse:
*Maliki’s Dawa party, our life-line in Iraq, is calling for an Arab boycott of Israel. A key alliance, already under great strain, is now being further strained. Maliki is visiting Iran this Saturday and if the conflict is still continuing by then, watch for a renewed publicly vocalized political alliance with Iran from him.
*Sistani, the premier Shia religious leader in Iraq has called for an immediate end to the Gaza attacks.
*Turkey’s foreign minister has warned the conflict in Gaza threatens to escalate into a wider crisis across the region (Arab states), and demanded an immediate cease-fire.
*With Turkey at the forefront, thousands of Muslims in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen and Jordan protested Israel’s civilian massacre.
All these bridges built to the ME, and even in Europe, are now being strained, tested to the breaking point. How much longer does anyone want to press this scenario, when you and I both know the “goal” of removing Hamas is a fiction here.
Israel’s deadly response on Hamas, on an already beleaguered Gaza, is increasingly looking like the retaliation against Hezbollah in 2006 –and less like a strategic counterattack against Hamas militants. It’s not a question now whether it’s justified, it’s a question of Muslim public reaction and sentiment, or more accurately anger. Israel, as well and the US, loses if Muslim anger boils over and reanimates Hamas (which appears to have happened).
Israel is earning itself a certain reputation – not just for its military power –but for its more merciless use of military power, all in the eyes of the same youthful generation brought up in a wartime adolesence.
Now, tell me, is that “goal” of rooting Hamas, while killing dozens of civilians in the process going to work here?
On balance this effort was a pre-election opportunity aligned before the ending of the Bush Administration’s card blanche backing of Israel and that’s how it is playing out to the Muslim world. It doesn’t matter how it plays out here, they are the regional neighbors alienated further from Israel.
You act like Arab and/or Muslim outrage at Israel just started yesterday, simple….
And when did your’s start?
Simple is just a pro-islamist terrorist or a terrorist or a virulent anti-Semite living in the States, no doubt. She doesn’t want any of them killed. So she spins her way thru bullshit.
I hope she is right and that all the terrorists will be mad and that they will all come to fight with Israel. And I hope that all decent countries will come and help Israel to kill all of the terrorists in ONE final single war. Bon débarras! Free the world of that vermin. It is about time that terrorism be taken seriously by the World. Wouldn’t that be a nice start for 2009? This is my wish for the New Year. Get rid of the scum of society…. the scum of people.
@simply done:
What do you mean by “merciless” use of military power? I’d say Israel has gone above and beyond realistic expectations when it comes to minimizing civilian casualties. Even Palestinian sources indicate that the majority killed have been security forces and not civilians.
If Hamas were so concerned about civilian deaths on “their side”, maybe they’d think better than to use ’em as human shields?
Yup….pretty “merciless” use of military might, alright:
Israel using precision guided munitions and targeting Hamas to avoid civilian casualties; contrast that with Hamas randomly launching Katusha rockets specifically targeting civilians and Israeli schools.
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert: ‘We are not fighting against the people of Gaza’.
“Mr Olmert appealed to Palestinians in Gaza, saying “You the citizens of Gaza are not our enemies. Hamas, Jihad and the other terrorist organisations are your enemies, as they are our enemies.
“They have brought disaster on you and they try to bring disaster to the people of Israel. And it is our common goal to make every possible effort to stop them.”
Mr Olmert said “we tried to avoid, and I think quite successfully, to hit any uninvolved people – we attacked only targets that are part of the Hamas organisations”.
Hamas said all of its security compounds in Gaza were destroyed by the air strikes, which Israel said hit some 40 targets.”
Way to go Israel! Keep the good work.
ISRAELI F-16 BOMBERS ATTACK GAZA DEC 27, 2008 – CNN REPORT
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8R82FAQLirA&feature=related
“More difficult than many people anticipated”!! What til they decide to do a ground offensive.
Hamas is still firing rockets at Ashkalon and Beersheba. And Gaza is still taking a pounding. So it’s a question of who blinks first at this late stage.
But if the Israelis don’t call for a ceasefire, then the ’06 judgment of mercilessness by Israel will be confirmed in many Muslim minds. So far there aren’t enough ground troops appearing that the Israelis have brought to Gaza. These deployments are a mere threat at this point; they’ll have to call forward more units before a ground operation becomes credible. But there is more than just Gaza’s ground to worry about.
A major ground operation in Gaza may cause Hezbulla to resume hostilities from north of the Litani. This should be considered as a big risk inherent in a ground operation in Gaza.
If you do a ground war always prepare for surprises.
Muslim militiamen of the Hezbulla, Hamas, Jeish Mahdi, and their ilk are different significantly from Israelis soldiers: They share fanatical religiousness in the afterlife. Their martyrdom is a path to God. Israeli soldiers are more secular.
They’ll be a lot of ground to cover (and tunnels to locate). Thin alley ways of miles of homes and buildings, many in shambles. In Lebanon the Hezbulla dug in well and Israel stalled.
Hamas will be prepared. It’ll be “more difficult than many people anticipated”.
@simply done: I always find it humorous when people ignore a informative, and intelligent question directed at them…that actually will make them answer a question honestly, and may actually make them look inward….and instead answer an attack comment instead that will lead to no where.
Quite telling…but not surprising.
I’m sure you just overlooked it right? Suuuurrreeee ya did.
I answered in 23 …or more accurately, Peres answered it.
If you hear some leftist/liberal saying Clinton had a better handle on the Palestinian question, remind them of how he offed Arafat by making Arafat wait while a Jewish girl performed fellatio on him.
As for B. Netanyahu(sp) I remember how he wanted Israel to take advantage of the world’s concern with China in wake of the Tiannamen Square episode to expel all the Palestinians from the Occupied Territories. Imagine how things would be now if he had been listened to.
The “Disproportianate force” argument is just another way to bash Israel by Israel haters, anti-semites, and terrorist supporters. Israel is kicking butt while keeping civilian casualties to a minimum and they know it. Typical of the left, the victim (Israel) is the guilty one when the attacker (Hamas) is a member of one of their “protected groups”.
Defending ‘no mercy’:
–Noah Pollack
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733115606&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
@simply done:
“He doesn’t sound as if the goal is going to be achieved in this military conflict, and the “goal” is more to stop “future rockets”.
I don’t think, as do many others, that the goal was worth it.
Now if they start a ground assault, they, one, further risk politically alienating Israel with her Arab neighbors, two, still won’t achieve ‘your’ goal of toppling Hamas (as they can’t do a “gorilla war” in Gaza), and three, escalate the violence for years to come.”
From your article, Netayyahu said he wasn’t going to get into long range tactics, the *short term goal* is to stop Hamas from firing their rockets.
Neighboring countries made peace with Israel because they were beaten, was achieving that goal worth it? Same has to happen with Hamas, otherwise there will be no peace for either side, and no state for the Palestinians. Do you think it’s right for Israeli children to live in fear of going to school, or their families running into bomb shelters everytime Hamas decides it wants to lob rockets into their market places? They’ve been though thousands of rocket attacks each time warranting an escape to a bomb shelter, don’t you think for the peace and safety of Israel that needs to stop? Do politics trump safety? Hamas could end this, their people don’t have to be caught up in a ground war but, they hate and are acting on hate.
Here’s an oped in this morning’s WaPo that I agree with:
Hard Truths About the Conflict
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/31/AR2008123102773.html?hpid%3Dopinionsbox1&sub=AR
Missy, Neighboring countries [didn’t ma[k]e peace with Israel because they were beaten”– they made peace because they were promised aid. Egypt and Jordan get a hell of a lot of money from us. Depending on your foreign and military aid calculus, Jordan and Egypt come out in second and third place as the largest recipients of U.S. foreign aid just behind Israel. We’re buying off a monarchy and a dictatorship to keep the peace. If we pulled their aid, do you think the leaders would remain at peace with Israel? If you were to have elections in those countries, do you think Israel would stay at peace with them?
A vast majority of Egypt’s Muslim brotherhood support the Gazans over Israel. Jordan’s population believe they share a special religious heritage with the Palestinians. Both countries peoples are deeply sympathetic to the Palestinians, contrasted to Israels.
One of the political ‘fallouts’ from this conflict is Mubarak’s political bankruptcy with his own people now. Egypt is now no longer a buffer between Israel and the arab states, having lost its “political dignity”, but is now publicly leaning against Mubarak, as president, more now than any other time. Analysts are wondering if he can keep the country together now.
Of course I think children should be safe; safety is everything. I personally believe both side are misguided in this whole sad affair. But I don’t see it as clear-cut, it’s not a black and white issue. For example, Hamas did cut it’s rockets out, after the june 16 agreement, from 200 some-odd a day to about 5-10 a day. But Hamas is not a very structured organization and some vestiges of it’s more “lunatic” element rejected the agreement and for months snuck about shooting rockets over the border. In return, Israel ignored dropping the embargo and only permitted marginal amounts of trucks into Gaza.
Many believe the Gazans are so “broken” as a people (no schools, water, heat, medical supplies, jobs… but plenty of guns and rockets) that it’s primary source of sustenance is now the hatred of Israel. Both, I believe, are fueled by this horrid for each other.
Hamas’ popularity was waning prior to this conflict, now it’s growing in Gaza and gaining good support that it once had in years past. Israel was the catalyst for this. If they do a ground war they will deeply harden their support, not weaken it.
But it appears Israel ground war is coming; it has decided to assault certain areas in Gaza with ground troops. Some of the photographs I have seen of the vehicles are US made –155 mm self-propelled artillery pieces. There’s going to be a lot of artillery fire. The IDF will come in very heavy; too heavy. Like I said, lots of hate on each side.
“Like I said, lots of hate on each side.” (Simple)
O Boy! Your last sentence resumes your error. There is no hate on Israel side. The hater is on the Palestinian side only. Now I can see why you do not understand what is going out there. The first element of your premises is wrong.
Israel is not in war with Palestinians, neither were they with Lebaneses. They are in war with Hamas and were in war with Hezbollah. To make it clear to you: THEY ARE IN WAR WITH TERRORISTS.
Now if you cannot understand this and till you do understand this, there is no point of continuing this exchange with you. It is useless and hopeless. But at least, your last sentence did show us why you cannot understand this conflict. Now if someone more patient than me, like maybe Mata, could make you understand this, I think you could probably see why this war is a MUST an absolute MUST.