Why vote for McCain? He voted for the bailout, just like Obama. And both McCain and Obama voted for US government investment in big commercial banks, which is socialist, Socialism, maybe even Communism. Why not send a message to both parties that it is time to vote on principles? Why not? YES, we should!

Only Bob Barr is moral enough and conservative enough to deal with the issue of housing, Wall Street, and the rest of the current mess. He has not taken a cent from Fannie or Freddie or from any of the Wall Street firms that profit from the bailout. And Bob Barr has the support of Rep. Ron Paul, who did so well in the Republican primary debates.

Here’s Bob’s Web site: http://www.bobbarr2008.com/

Thus I’d never expect Obama to admit his socialism publicly, nor outline as bold a plan as to make his beliefs more overt than they already are. But I suspect if you get your President Obama, combined with Pelosi and Reid, you’ll find him almost perfect for your beliefs…. or at least well on the path to the Marxist America you desire.

Even tho we disagree vehemently on so many issues, I absolutely agree that green technology is a must include. However I am not for the abandonment of oil since it is not just fuel and energy, but also the mainstay of the majority of US exports. We will never be without the need for oil. And, when the wind doesn’t blow, the sun doesn’t shine, and droughts affect hydro power, oil is the only constant.

And frankly, I believe they are attacking this all wrong. It would be a wiser solution instead to reduce demand on existing power grids by building and retrofitting homes capable to be energy independent. This would allow for even more “under $249K” businesses to start up, and decrease the load. I’m quite sure that when the original grids were designed, it was not thought wise to concentrate such huge dependence upon so few locations.

However in some ways, you get no argument from me. Wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, you name it. I’m an all of the above type of girl. But the future I see is a lot of alternative energy manufacturers popping up, and no where to install them. The enviros file lawsuits and halt everything from transmission lines to solar panels in the deserts. State citizens block any effort to run a transmission lines thru a park. They stop clean coal. They stop nuclear.

Quite frankly, the problem with alternative energy is two fold…

1: it’s going to be more expensive to the consumer at the end than oil, and at a time we can’t afford that extra expense.

2: it’s going to be not only more expensive after the lawsuits that will impede the progress, but possibly a very long time in court before anything comes to fruition.

And what will all those manufacturers of windmills and solar panels do when they can’t move their product? We can’t afford to wait it out. Drill and expand petroleum, plus work on alternatives. It’s suicidal not to.

BTW, somebody want to talk to Chappaquiddick Ted as to why he has consistently blocked the wind farm off his vacation home? The NIMBY attitude is rampid, and knows no party lines.

INRE the tale of your particular steel mill… they all have a story. But ultimately it all comes down to the same. A “small profit” cannot last when equipment is aging, wages are rising, OSHA and EPA controls more demanding. It is a slow and inevitable death.

And of course where the unions are good is ensuring that there are safe work environments. As I said, if you want good wages, health and pension, plus safe work environments, EPA controls, the company has to get a break somewhere. So corporate taxes is the way to do that.

BTW your capital export idea spins on the requirement they receive public subsidies. Again, we go back to our inherent differences… I believe government should stay out of the taxpayer financing of the free market, and their regulations minimal – confined mostly to emissions and safety.

Even at that, they need to be realistic on their OSHA regulations, and the cost. I’m not interested in OSHA/EPA putting in outrageous demands, forcing the public to fund meeting those demands with subsidies.

The mills around hear were profitable, just not super-profitable. True, they were old, and in need of reinvesting profits into upgrading technology and even shrinking the work force. That’s what happened in Chicago, which still produces as much steel as ever, but with one-third of the work force.

Instead, LTV bought them from US Steel, formerly Jones and Laughlin Steel, then did exactly what I said, they took the ‘low road’ and screwed everyone.

Don’t blame it on the union. I’ve got a grandfather and a cousin dead in that mill, which was one of the largest in the world, and without the union fighting for safer conditions, there would be a lot more dead and injured. Not to mention that we have ‘weekends’ now. And after a bitter fight where we had to take to the streets in the 1980s, we managed to save at least part of our pensions. Without the union, we wouldn’t have a penny of that money which belonged to us, the steelworkers and their families, that paid into it over many years.

We can curb the export of capital, or at least slow it down. We can put a capital export tax on firms that received public subsidies. We can at least take away subsidies for those into outsourcing jobs. Then we can take those same tax credits and subsidies and apply them to Green industrial development.

We already have one reconverted mill in Pennsylvania now making wind turbines. It was put together by the steelworkers union, local government and–guess what–high tech capital FROM SPAIN! So that mean the profits, or at least a chunk of them, will be going back to Spain, rather than recycling and multiplying here. Our local capitalist guys, it seems, would rather use their capital gambling on casino-economy derivatives, betting on something really ‘productive’ and ‘helpful,’ like whether the Yen goes up or down today. The final outrage is now they expect us to bail them out! If we do, they better exchange some equity and control for it, rather than just get free money from our pockets. If they’re not willing to do that, then let them sink or swim by the ‘free market’ they claim to love UBER ALLES.

Obama’s not perfect, but he’s our best shot. He started his political career dealing with the impact of this problem, and knows it well. McCain doesn’t have a clue. McCain’s in the pocket of those who created the problem, not those who stand a chance to solve it. Obama’s not even close to being a socialist, but at least his brand of industrial policy capitalism might get us back on track.

Check the link in #5…it’s not to the PrairieFire book….
#4 link _is_ a Prairie Fire book link…

#5 is a link to a list of goals of the Communist Party for the USA in 1963. When you read it, you’ll see that they have nearly completed their goals.

It’s pretty stunning.

Again, you guys don’t even know what the problems are, let alone the solutions. You’re off tilting at windmills, and not even the kind we need.

You’re overplaying your Alinsky “ridicule” card, Carl. We might be able to converse if you don’t keep doing an imitation of your friend, Obama, and looking down your nose at everyone. So keep your pompous superiority ‘tude in check here, if you please.

I know you’re not a young dude, but I doubt you have much on me. You may be able to play the Obama “distraction” game with other younger types, but your revisionist history on steel isn’t going to play well with me. My father worked in those steel mills.

You spit out the “batch of capitalists” moniker like a good little Marxist, then distort the story from there. Perhaps the very notion that “profit” is integral to a business’ survival is foreign to you. Breaking even doesn’t cut it. There needs to be money to update, improve, expand, and accommodate for the morphing realities.

i.e. the US steel industry was some of the first “outsourcing”, as you and ilk like to call it today.

Why? Business outsources because it can no longer compete financially. They are not non-profits, tho you may wish they were. And in the case of the US steel mills, it came down to steel was cheaper from foreign sources… countries that became more than competitive and adept because the US graciously provided the technology after WWII, and they had workers that didn’t have union wages, and benefits safety regs, and high corporate taxes… not to mention the sundry class action lawsuits.

Add to that the need to import the raw materials as the resources nearby were depleted. The older the factory’s equipment gets, the farther away the raw material must be shipped, the higher the union wages and insurance costs… all results in the more profit a company needs to make to stay competitive. Otherwise it’s a slow business death… as history showed us.

I have mixed feelings about unions… being a former union member myself. I believe they had a place in time where they did good. But today, between the unions, OSHA, the EPA plus US high corporation and payroll taxes and licensing, our manufacturing and other production industries cannot compete with other countries.

Frankly, you “community organizing Alinsky types” played your own part in this downfall of American manufacturing. But now you whine about the lost jobs, giving your predecessors and yourselves a pass for their involvement in the demise then, and the continuing demise of other businesses today.

Losing a basic necessity such as steel, in this country is something I have long lamented. Frankly, I believe this country should be independent for manufacturingm textiles and energy. But it’s too late for that now in this global economy.

You want to blame greed. I blame people like Alinsky and unions, plus government, who drove the business into the ground.

Which, of course, brings me to your final closing… pre-snippy “ridicule”, that is

McCain just wants to cut taxes which, it’s true, will give some businesses the means to expand. But why should they expand HERE rather than, say, Malaysia, where they can make a quicker, bigger buck? He has no real answer to that one, save those he’s borrowed from Obama.

I swear you Obama types have a hearing problem. Or perhaps it’s just the talking points you put out.

McCain has most certainly provided the answer… and that is to cut corporate taxes. They are the 2nd highest in the world. Of course businesses are going to go where they are more competitive. It’s called survival. You want them to survive here? You need to allow them to compete. So you’ll have to give up something…. the workers environment, wages, health insurance, equipment modernization, or give ‘em a break on the taxes so they can afford all of the above.

What’s Obama’s answer? He seems to believe there’s a bottomless pit of profits he can tap into. He’s as much a fool as the rest of Congress… both sides… who believed that bail out money was going to cut loose with more credit liquidity. right…

Obama can’t seem to recognize that the expansion of government into business that he proposes is going to result in profits that he wants to tax drying up. Perhaps not in his potential terms, but it won’t be long after… just as it’s done in every socialist/communist structure in history. But then, that has always been the fatal flaw in socialists. They are short sighted and immediate, as Lightbringer points out above.

And oh, BTW, quit frivolously suing the living begeezus out of corporations at every turn. Otherwise you can add more business failures to your belt with class action suits and money hungry trial lawyers.

Wrong. The whole idea behind ACORN et al was to lie, cheat and/or steal their way to power by perverting elections.

What will they do with the power when they get it? Check out USSR in all it’s glory years.

Thanks but no thanks.

The whole idea behind ACORN, the New Party, even Alinsky was to make capitalism work for EVERYONE, not just a few capitalists.

We had a batch of capitalists around here in Western Pensylvania back in 1980 who bought up the steel mills, gutted them, then took the proceeds to Marathon oil to speculate in oil futures. Their wisdom? ‘We’re in business to make money, not steel.’ That’s a direct quote from one of these jerks. So hundreds of thousands of workers are screwed, and our towns are largely ghost towns. Obama’s backing plans to re-open some of them to produce high-tech windmills, for Green Jobs for Green energy, a decent highroad capitalist industrial policy. And he’ll use some tax money as a wise investment to get them started, and hopefully he’ll subtract it from what your speculator ‘we’re in business to make money, not steel’ capitalist buddies are holding out their hands for in bailouts.

ACORN, to their credit, was the early bird on the streets opposing predatory lender capitalists, while at the same time helping thousands of low-income people get mortgages, almost all with an excellent record of being very sound even today. You see, they helped hard-working low-to-middle income people get homes, the key to getting a stake in this system. But they were not the least bit interested in helping fly-by-night yuppies buy McMansions out in the burbs that were way beyond their means.

And as for suggesting that the poor ‘go to work,’ any time any jobs are advertised around here, there are always far more applicants than positions. And after what your deregulation neoliberal low road capitalists have done to the markets, I expect it’s going to get worse.

I’m a socialist, but my immediate program these days is to get new businesses jump-started creating new wealth and new jobs in a Green way that benefits everyone here. McCain just wants to cut taxes which, it’s true, will give some businesses the means to expand. But why should they expand HERE rather than, say, Malaysia, where they can make a quicker, bigger buck? He has no real answer to that one, save those he’s borrowed from Obama.

Again, you guys don’t even know what the problems are, let alone the solutions. You’re off tilting at windmills, and not even the kind we need.