17
Aug

An Endangered Act [Reader Post]

Posted by: Wisdom @ 7:15 am in Environment, Global Warming

Visited 707 times, 2 so far today

I’ve seen dozens of editorials and articles over the last several days that claim the Bush administration is ignoring science in it’s new overhaul of rules regarding Federal agencies and how they adhere to the Endangered Species Act. The reality is that the Endangered Species Act hasn’t been ruled by science for decades. It is ruled by over-financed wildlife and environmental groups who cherry pick the the judicial system and manipulate their lawsuits to make sure a judge favorable to their causes forces the implementation of the Endangered Species Act in a way that benefits THEIR agendas.

It’s been over a decade since wolves were forced down the throats of Wyoming, Montana and Idaho, with the reintroduction of an “experimental” population. It was determined that a “successful” population would consist of about 300 wolves roaming Northwest Wyoming, Yellowstone Park, and the bordering areas of Montana and Idaho. It wasn’t until the poplulation reached over 1800 that the feds finally turned over management of the wolves to the individual states, and now a federal judge in Montana has decided that those 1800 wolves don’t represent a large enough population and has returned management control of the wolves to the feds. The numbers were obviously good enough for the “scientists” that planned the reintroduction in the first place! But it isn’t about the science is it? The ESA has never been about the science.

The Endangered Species Act has always been about one group of people forcing their agendas upon another group of people. If it was about science, animal species would be removed from their places on the endangered species’ lists when their populations increased and their risk for extinction was reduced. That’s not the way it works, though. When a species recovers enough to meet its goals, the socio(enviromenta)lists sue and get a judge in some ubiquitous federal court somewhere to change the goals.

Now, being endangered isn’t even a requirement to be put on the list. Now, the political perception of a species’ endangerment is enough to get it on the list. There are more polar bears on this planet now than in any time in history, or at least since we’ve been counting them! But, based on projected models created by politicians - not scientists - that the ice they call home MIGHT disappear, they have been listed as endangered. So, because something might or might not happen somedaym because of something that might or might not be happening in the environment, that might or might not be caused by something that humans are doing, the socio(environmenta)lists have one more piece of ammunition in their litigious warchests that they can use to shove even more of their marxist crap down our throats.

So, the Bush administration’s decision to allow one bunch of bureaucrats instead of another bunch of bureaucrats to administer decisions concerning the effects of the ESA on federal projects isn’t any different than allowing one judge to decide how the ESA is administered instead of another.

The Endangered Species Act was broken before it was enacted in the first place and is just one more example of how the federal government shouldn’t be usurping the Constitutional authority guaranteed by the Tenth Amendment - “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” I’ve read and read the Constitution, and nowhere does it say that the federal government has the authority to manage wildlife to the exclusion of the authority of the States.

In the end, all the ruling by the federal judge in Montana means is that people who shoot wolves will just go back to not reporting it.

-Wisdom

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28 comments so far

Sabre22
 1Reply to this comment  

I worked on the Wolf Project in 1997 I asked a former professor about the project and he stated that it’s main purpose was to show a success for the Endangered Species Act (ESA) so that the ESA would be renewed.

Here is the kicker anybody who believed that the wolves would be de-listed at 300 wolves was fooling themselves. Just look at the wolf population in northern Minnesota they were also supposed to be de-listed at a certain population as well they are still NOT De-listed even though they are also more than 3 times the recomended numbers.

Wolves and Grizzly Bear are what is referred to in the Wildlife Community as Glamorous Megafauna. Wolves will not be de-listed untill their food source has been devoured and they start taking livestock and pets on a large scale. Within the next 3-5 years the wolves in the Yellowstone Ecosystem will attack a human being.

August 17th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Arthurstone
 2Reply to this comment  

Sabre22 typed:

‘Within the next 3-5 years the wolves in the Yellowstone Ecosystem will attack a human being.’

Egads.

Imagine a park containing…wild life.

Don’t worry the humans will be safe in their cars and riding their snowmobiles.

August 17th, 2008 at 8:59 am
 3Reply to this comment  

Sabre22 typed:

‘Within the next 3-5 years the wolves in the Yellowstone Ecosystem will attack a human being.’

ArthurStone responded:

Egads.

Imagine a park containing…wild life.

Don’t worry the humans will be safe in their cars and riding their snowmobiles.

ArthurStone, it is attitudes like yours that has led to the State of Wyoming being considered a backyard-playground-park to all the hypocrites back East who think they know better how to manage it than the people who live here. Wyoming ISN’T Yellowstone Park. The Yellowstone Ecosystem ISN’T Yellowstone Park. And all of the wolves definitely AREN’T in Yellowstone Park. It is interesting that in the Fish and Wildlife Service reports they barely mention Wyoming, only the “Greater Yellowstone Area.”

The wolves have spread out across the length of Western Wyoming, at least as far as 300+ miles away from the park that I am personally aware of.

According to this map,
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/annualrpt06/Fig3_GYA.pdf
they haven’t. In fact, the FWS is reluctant to admit the presence of wolves so far away from the recovery zone. When called once in 2006 to report a wolf sighting on Little Mountain in Southwest Wyoming, the FWS response was “There aren’t any wolves there” and more interesting “We don’t want to know about any wolves in that area”

According to the original recovery plan,
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/NorthernRockyMountainWolfRecoveryPlan.pdf
the goal was ten breeding pairs (which constitutes a pack) in each of three recovery areas, Yellowstone, Montana, and Idaho (again, notice that Wyoming doesn’t count) for a total of 30 packs or 300 wolves with an average of 10 wolves per pack.

According to this 2007 report,
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/annualrpt07/WY%20and%20YNP%202007%20Annual%20Final%20Report%20received%203-8-08.pdf
there were 25 wolf packs in Wyoming OUTSIDE of Yellowstone Park. That is more than double the 11 packs that occupy the park itself. Wyoming alone (yes, Yellowstone park IS in Wyoming after all) contains more wolf packs than the recovery plan recommended for the ENTIRE recovery area!

In short, the wolves aren’t just playing pretty in the park for tourists to look at in their cars and on their snowmachines. They are out here where Wyoming residents live, work, and recreate. They are killing livestock at rates well beyond the numbers that the FWS will admit, and they are decimating wild game populations that the State has the responsibility to manage.

A friend of mine who owns a cabin near Pinedale once related to me that she can’t let her grandchildren play in the forest around her cabin anymore. “I weigh 120lbs, about the same as a wolf,” she said, “but they have a lot sharper teeth.”

Another friend of mine had a once in a lifetime mountain goat license for an area near the park a couple of years back. He ended up calling off his hunt half way through, “I hunt because I enjoy it. Hunting is fun. Between the wolf packs and the grizzly bears HUNTING us, it wasn’t very fun.” He said his guides, “Tough, scary folk from Northern Canada who live the wilderness” were so nervy that they hiked with pistols in their hands while they guided him.

In Wyoming, we have plenty of animals that can kill us while we recreate. Grizzly bears, black bears, mountain lions, and now wolves. If nothing else, it makes camping interesting.

August 17th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Arthurstone
 4Reply to this comment  

Better yet. Wolves reclaiming habitat outside the park. Camping should be interesting.

August 17th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
DW 5000
 5Reply to this comment  

Another friend of mine had a once in a lifetime mountain goat license for an area near the park a couple of years back. He ended up calling off his hunt half way through, “I hunt because I enjoy it. Hunting is fun. Between the wolf packs and the grizzly bears HUNTING us, it wasn’t very fun.”

Heh. That’s too bad.

August 17th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
 6Reply to this comment  

Where do you live Arthurstone? How about some native species reclaim the habitat that used to be where your backyard is now? Oh, wait, that’s different though! That’s where YOU live.

As I said, it’s all about agendas. It used to be the popular agenda to eliminate the wolves, now it’s the popular agenda to repopulate them. The problem is, we live here. You might think that doesn’t matter, but we do.

August 17th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
BarbaraS
 7Reply to this comment  

Liberals don’tthink it matters. They would much rather have these wolves and bears eliminate humans. After all, humans cause global warming with their bad habits and fetish breath. Their goal is to cut down on humans hence abortion. They go on and on about the rights of animals. They don’t care about the citizens of Wyoming just like they didn’t care about the farmers of Oregon. They don’t even care about the animals. This is all about control and money. This whole Endangered Species Act is an example of people who can bullshit anyone. Nixon signed this act because he didn’t see the harm it could do. It has stifled our economy, made people lose their property and generally hampered the day to day living of all Americans. It should be repealed and these environmentalists should go out and get real jobs.

August 17th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
DW 5000
 8Reply to this comment  

Where do you live Arthurstone? How about some native species reclaim the habitat that used to be where your backyard is now? Oh, wait, that’s different though! That’s where YOU live.

Well, I share Arthurstone’s opinions about this, and I have had to dodge bears where I live, and I think it’s great.

Wisdom (cripes, what a pretentious handle!): why don’t you wait for Arthurstone to answer for himself instead of pulling a Mike’s Dumbmerica and putting words in his mouth. If he says, “No, that’s different. That’s where I live,” then maybe you can get all snippy.

August 17th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Arthurstone
 9Reply to this comment  

Phil Gramm is right. Interesting how folks CHOOSE a remote, rural lifestyle then complain when Mother Nature bites back.

That said I live in the very urban core of a major west coast city and often wish some predators would be reintroduced in these hyear parts. Not all the herds needing thining are in the wild.

August 17th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
 10Reply to this comment  

Yes it is nice to see bears, until they come and kill your kids, your livestock (lively hood) O yes it si so great.

You just go to love the environmentalist wackos that live in their Ivory Towers in big cities telling the common folk what is best for them.

August 17th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Arthurstone
 11Reply to this comment  

BarbaraS-

I hate to break it to you but the ‘war’ between humans and wildlife is over.

We won.

August 17th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
 12Reply to this comment  

Oh yeah.. Artie would be all in favor of bears roaming Seattle’s Pioneer Square eating the tourists before they could drop their dollars in his guitar case.

August 17th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
 13Reply to this comment  

Arthurstone, I didn’t choose “a remote rural lifestyle”. Once again, jackass perceptions run wild. I live in a house, on a street, in a neighborhood, in a city. As a matter of fact, I like having bears, and lions, and even wolves around. What I don’t like is that pissants like you think they are more important than me, my family, and my neighbors. If the population recovery goals would have been observed, there wouldn’t be a problem. If Wyoming would have been allowed by a Clinton appointed judge who is legislating from his bench to manage the wolf population in our own state, there wouldn’t be a problem. If the federal government would recognize the rights of the states to govern themselves, there wouldn’t be a problem.

All the requirements of the recovery plan were met, but the enviro’mentals’ want more. But how much is enough? If you live in downtown Seattle, then native species used to exist exactly where you live. You can make stupid remarks about thinning the herds in your city, but you know damn well that if the feds decided to take your home and your land and make a spotted owl preserve out of it, you’d cry like a baby. They are doing that in Wyoming, and you think it’s cute as long as you can come visit the bears in Yellowstone and get your junior ranger badge.

And DW 5000, my handle isn’t pretentious. I guarantee that I am smarter than you. I can tell by the lack of intelligence that fills your comments that you’re a little slow. Don’t be angry, though, someone has to be on the bottom of the IQ grid to balance out the top.

August 17th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
BarbaraS
 14Reply to this comment  

I hate to break it to you but the ‘war’ between humans and wildlife is over.

We won.

Actually, the war is not between humans and dumb animals and never was. It is between the environmentalists and the rest of the country. And tell me something else. Why is it that if any subject is introduced no matter what it is you will take the opposite view from the rest of us? Do you get your jollies from being a devil’s advocate? Or do you just like to argue and put people down? One wonders why people like you come to these sites. You contribute nothing to the conversation but discord. Your talking points have all been refuted and disproved yet you you still spout them as if they were new and shiny pearls of wisdom. Maybe you need to contact moveon.org. It seems that you have not been getting the current memos and may be several days behind in your orders about what to say on any given subject. Devoted sheep like you are lost without your mentors’ words.

August 17th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Arthurstone
 15Reply to this comment  

Mike-

If we could encourage wolpacks to prey on tourists & football fans we’d have a real win-win situation.

August 18th, 2008 at 7:11 am
Arthurstone
 16Reply to this comment  

Wisdom typed:

‘Arthurstone, I didn’t choose “a remote rural lifestyle”. Once again, jackass perceptions run wild. I live in a house, on a street, in a neighborhood, in a city.’

Then you’re relatively safe.

August 18th, 2008 at 7:54 am
 17Reply to this comment  

The rural folks who choose that lifestyle don’t complain about the natural encounters. They just complain about you idiot urbanites who shuffle the predators around, then lay out some progressive legislation that says they can’t shoot the predators to protect their livestock or themselves.

So in short, we are complaining about blowhards like you, AS. Not the wolves.

Not all the herds needing thining are in the wild.

~~~

If we could encourage wolpacks to prey on tourists & football fans we’d have a real win-win situation.

And may you be one of the first to be thinned.

August 18th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Arthurstone
 18Reply to this comment  

We left it up to the mine owners, timber moguls & cattle barons the first go round. And everything ended up dead, logged, overgrazed and polluted.

August 18th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
 19Reply to this comment  

Oh to be spared the onslaught of BS from the know-it-all concrete dwellers….

What you do NOT know about the logging (or livestock) industry is only surpassed by your lack of knowledge on Christian doctrine, AS.

But just like the other thread, your lack of comprehension never prohibits you hitting the keyboard, and proving your idiocy once again.

UPDATE: Well gosh darn. I owe AS an apology! And ya know, I’ll give it. My mea culpa. The lack of comprehension on the doctrine was bro-in-comrade arms, Dead Weight. *Not* AS.

My apologies for confusing you with him, and attributing his stupidity on Christian doctrine to you, AS.

You are, however, still completely in too deep of water on the logging industry to know of which you speak. But you parrot Sierra Club talking points very well.

August 18th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
 20Reply to this comment  

Arthurstone: We left it up to the mine owners, timber moguls & cattle barons the first go round. And everything ended up dead, logged, overgrazed and polluted.

Interesting way of looking at it, except that Wyoming never ended up “dead, logged, overgrazed and polluted”. Despite the evil “mine owners, timber moguls & cattle barons” who, by the way, made every cent by providing what other people wanted and needed, Wyoming is still a paradise. We believe in and follow what’s called “multiple use” which is a system where all of the groups who want to use public lands work together to manage the land for the benefit of everyone. The only time the system doesn’t work is when the courts and the feds get involved, usually as a result of pressure and money from OUTSIDE our state bounaries.

Your view of the world is like that of a teenage parent who screwed up their first kid by not giving them any supervision, and wants to overcompensate by micromanaging every aspect of their younger child. All of you angry liberals who choose to live in the giant cities that you screwed up think you can make up for it by micromanaging all of us out here living a “remote rural lifestyle”. What you don’t understand, is that just because you screwed up doesn’t mean we will, and it definitely doesn’t mean that you know how to manage public land in Wyoming better that we do.

In fact, we are operating safe, environmentally sound mines, we are managing our forests in such a way they are more healthy than any time in known history, and cattle are grazing in our mountains right alongside those wolves and grizzlies in addition to the elk, moose, deer, antelope, mountain sheep, etc. In fact, we have more species of wildlife in Wyoming than is found in any other state in the nation. In further fact, the only ones that seem to be endangered are the ones that the federal government manages via the Fish and Wildlife Service. The ones that the state has historically managed are all thriving. If the “endangered” species were given back to the Wyoming Game and Fish to manage, I have no doubt they would be flourishing too.

August 18th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
 21Reply to this comment  

Add to Wisdom, logging firms - who are in the business of planting and harvesting timber for homes such as those where concrete dwellers like AS reside - harvest and replant with quality timber. ‘Tis just good business. Why cut off your future livelihood?

And such replanting is monitored by the state forestry departments.

Thus… the reason it’s called a “renewable resource”.

August 18th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Arthurstone
 22Reply to this comment  

I spent a good many years working in the timber industry in Washington state and ‘renewable resource’ (an advertising term) shouldn’t be confused with environmentally sound practices. The timber industry has only been brought into resonable practices kicking &
screaming. Good business practices? Better perhaps but any fault of Plum Creek , McMillan Bloedel or guy so eager to ‘harvest’ the redwoods.

August 18th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
 23Reply to this comment  

Wow… a Seattle resident makes you the quintessential expert. So you find one or two guys outside of the norm and pronounce the entire industry irresponsible.

Using your logic, the human race is abysmal by your very presence.

“Renewable resource” is only an advertising slogan in your eyes. Trees are the foundation of a construction industry. Fact remains, you cut them. You plant them. They grow. A resource that renews itself.

You are still out of your depth, concrete dweller… on logging, on livestock, etal. But that’s what happens when you get your news from the Sierra Club.

August 18th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Arthurstone
 24Reply to this comment  

Forest industry practices in the PNW still have adverse effects on fish habitat, water quality, soil conservation and the like. And the timber companies have always needed and continue to need more than a little prodding to play nice. And remember; planting & harvesting trees does not a forest make.

August 18th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
 25Reply to this comment  

Once again, you compare what YOU did in YOUR state to what’s going on in MY state. Get it through your head that there is NO camparison. Come visit the mountain ranges and mountain plains in Wyoming where everything is “dead, logged, overgrazed and polluted”. You’ll find that the only places that holds true are the places managed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management. I remember the good old days when it was called “public land”, before Clinton re-christened it “Federal” land and BLM officials trained with the Border Patrol and carried AR-15’s while they patrolled our public land (long before 9/11)!

Wait, I take that back. Don’t come visit. You’ll just end up moving here like all of the other coastal ex-pats who keep invading our state and bringing your stupid socia(enviromenta)lism with you.

August 18th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
DW 5000
 26Reply to this comment  

Wow… a Seattle resident makes you the quintessential expert.

Holy crap, MightyHairy! You’ve got some brass ones to go there! Just to judge by your endless pontification, you are World’s Expert at every conceivable subject there is.

August 18th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
 27Reply to this comment  

AS, Oregon is (make that was, thanks to the environmentalists) one of the largest timber states in the US. Our forest regulations require commercial logging to deal with soil erosion, prompt regeneration, riparian run off and wildlife. Additionally there are regulations even for the logging road construction, the chemicals sprayed, and the drainage design.

Thus the fish and waters are protected. The wildlife may disappear into the adjacent forest during the logging, but they don’t go far. They return as soon as the seedlings are in for some serious munching. Our reprods are checked (monitored by the state forestry officials) annually for the first five years. Those that are damaged by that wildlife you think have disappeared are required to be replaced.

By eight years, the fast growing Doug fir… our most popular reprod… is several stories high, and they pile on about 2-3 feet annually. Have a view of the coastals range, or the various volcanos after cutting? You’d better enjoy it quick. By 8 years, you won’t be able to see the forest for the trees. The “clear cut” look, and the views they reveal, are short lived at best.

Additionally, commercially reprod land is well maintained and more fire resistant forest. Doug fir are maintained with trimming and pruning to keep their value, and does not encourage underbrush growth. Therefore the forest is more apt to survive a fire….. unlike unmaintained natural forests with scrubby brush and junk trees, which are veritable tinder boxes with wide spread damage.

While the logging regulations have come in the last couple of decades, the Oregon terrain and wildlife have not suffered from the generations of unregulated logging before, bringing all your chicken little Sierra Club crap to fruition. The forest resources here, as well as our livestock and agriculture business, are doing quite fine… despite the abuse you seem to believe the prior generations have reaped.

Dead Weight, compared to you, I am a “World’s Expert”. Unlike you, however, I tackle subjects I have knowledge on. On others, I don’t comment. And with your menopausal estrogen attacks, I can see where you’d have “brass ones” envy.

August 19th, 2008 at 8:56 am
 28Reply to this comment  

Like I said, DW isn’t very intelligent.

August 19th, 2008 at 11:36 am

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