One more Marine exonerated in the Haditha case:
A Marine intelligence officer has been acquitted of charges that he tried to help cover up the killings of 24 Iraqi men, women and children.
A jury of seven officers delivered the verdict Wednesday in favor of 1st Lt. Andrew Grayson after more than five hours of deliberation.
Grayson, who has always maintained he did nothing wrong, was not present at the scene of the killings on Nov. 19, 2005, in Haditha. He had been accused of telling a sergeant to delete photographs of the dead from a digital camera and laptop computer.
Grayson was found not guilty of two counts of making false official statements, two counts of trying to fraudulently separate from service, and one count of attempt to deceive by making false statements.
And then there were two:
Still no apology from Murtha yet.
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OORAH!!! Now get the hell out of the way and let them do their jobs.
Tom
Murtha’s a turd.
The other two will be acquitted too, just as Curt and I have said all along.
thebronze, you took the words out of my mouth. I’ll drink a beer to the Marines the day Mad Jack Murtha meets the devil and that shouldn’t be long off. I think we should try for an annual military holiday to celebrate his death. Of course if we did that for all the democrat traitors in congress today the military would be off year round.
What will the dishonorable Murtha do now?
Curious, has anyone done the math? Comparing the arrest/handover of Khalid Sheik Mohammed (mastermind of the 911 attacks) vs the time that’s passed since the Haditha horror show and today? Is it possible that the mastermind of the 911 attacks is getting to a military tribunal faster than the last two Haditha Marines?
What makes you guys so sure that none of these Marines committed a war crime?
I don’t think they much care Dave
They are blind and ignorant
The only ones blind and ignorant are you two. Click the Haditha Marines category to this blog and read about all the evidence that exonerated these men. They were railroaded for political purposes and its come back to bite Murtha and friends on the ass.
Curt,
First off, why am I blind and ignorant simply because I asked a question? That’s what Marines fight and die for – the American right to ask questions. The people didn’t have the right to do that in the Soviet Union and they didn’t have the right to do that in Saddam’s Iraq. It’s different here in the United States, or doesn’t that right apply on this thread?
There are still two defendants out there. One of them is SSgt. Wuterich, the senior Marine on the ground at Haditha. If there is any culpability, he is the one most likely to be held responsible. I don’t have time to read your entire Haditha blog, so why don’t you do me a straight and encapsulate the evidence as you see it.
Regarding John Murtha – when I l didook at the blog I noticed reference to him as a hellbound coward. Whatever you think of his politics, here’s a synopsis of his record:
In 1959, Murtha, then a captain, took command of the 34th Special Infantry Company, Marine Corps Reserves, in Johnstown. He remained in the Reserves after his discharge from active duty until he volunteered for service in the Vietnam War, serving from 1966 to 1967, serving as a battalion staff officer (S-2 Intelligence Section), receiving the Bronze Star with Valor device, two Purple Hearts and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. He retired from the Reserves as a colonel in 1990, receiving the Navy Distinguished Service Medal.
Doesn’t sound like a coward to me. I assume many on this blog are active duty or veterans. I honor your service. Why don’t you honor his?
No one questions your right to query, Dave Noble. But your question is one that has more validity if we were in the pre-trial days. Instead we are far into the process, with most all of the Marines having charges dismissed.
So to answer your question, most of us believe they didn’t commit war crimes based on the evidence that you have obviously chosen not to read. Be nice if you did your own homework, ya know.
Most all of us also recognize that our military, just like in the American private sector and in all humanity, has it’s fair share of bad apples. These soldiers are not the rotten apples in the barrel.
As for Murtha? He is not honored by me because he violated these Marines basic rights, and used his clout as a Congressional elitist as his platform to do so. He prounounced them guilty without a trial to the media, and did so as an elected official on “company time”.
Perhaps in his service days, he was one to be admired. But whatever admirable qualities he had then, are just a memory in days gone by. I can only judge him as he behaves today. IMHO, he’s a miserable cur of a human being. An example of a Congressional elitist, using these Marines as a political football, for purposes of catapulting the DNC to power.
MataHarley,
I can do all the homework I want and I will not have all the relevant facts of this case. Nor will you. To do that I would have to be a member of either of the trial teams, the prosecution or the defense. If you believe you have enough facts to fairly evaluate this case, you are fooling yourself. Do you dispute that 24 civilians were killed as the Marines went house? Prima facie, I think there’s a problem there. But then again, I don’t have access to the full trial record. Again, nor do you, unless your blogname hides your identity as one of the trial attorneys working on this case, in which case your participation in this blog would be a breach of your professional ethics as an attorney. So let’s let the miliitary justice system do it’s job, and get out of the way.
You are politicizing this case as much as you claim John Murtha is.
Remember, I am an agnostic on this issue. I asked a question. You and the most of the others on this thread seem to think you know the answer – “Nothing inappropriate here, just Marines doing their duty.” Congratulations on your omniscience.
Now, as to the fact that 6 of the accused have been acquitted or had the charges against them dismissed. Why does that make my question Overcome By Events? It happens all the time in criminal courts throughout the United States and in courts under the UCMJ that whenever there are multiple defendants, not all the defendants are found guilty. It’s hard to make a criminal case in civilian criminal courts as well as military courts. And it should be. The burden is on the prosecution. Innocent people are sometimes convicted and guilty people sometimes go free. How do you know these soldiers are not “the rotten apples in the barrel”, or maybe just young Marines who snapped under the unimaginable pressure of combat?
With respect to John Murtha. Elitist? What is your basis for that accusation? Because he’s a Congressman? Because he’s a Democrat? Other than his military service and his service as as a Congressman, he was the owner of Johnstown Minute Car Wash.
And how can you look into his heart and know whether he honestly believes, rightly or wrongly, that a war crime was committed here? Why do you assume that his motivations are cravenly political? BTW – first, if the Democrats come to power it won’t be via a “catapult.” It will be because the American people have grown weary with the Bush administration. Also, it’s probably more accurate to say the Democrat party will take power, not the Democratic National Committee.
Finally, the author of the “coward” calumny didn’t respond directly, you responded in his stead. So I will ask you, “miserable cur of a human being” or not, is he really a “coward”?
Compared to whom on this thread – you? marinetbryant? scrapiron? snooper? curt? scott? thebronze?
Come on guys, let’s cowboy up and compare medals with that turd coward.
Go ask some Marines how they feel about him and find out yourself. This Marine believes his conduct to be shameful and beneath the dignity of how a Marine should conduct himself. He is not longer considered a Marine in my book nor many others. Hes a POS who used his political position to throw these Marines under a bus for a political end…to rip into “Bush’s war.” Thats cowardly in my book. You think its noble, good for you, could care less.
As far as the civilians…I have written many posts that detailed the evidence. Go look at them. I will not waste my time going through it all over again when you have a mouse and can go read them yourself.
Civilians died, yes. That has happened in every war this country has been in and will happen in ever war ANY country engages in in the future. We try to minimize it but war is not a neat and clean endeavor. These Marines had their charges dismissed because it was shown they were following the proper protocol once engaged by an enemy. They are not police officers, they are soldiers at war and when fired upon they engage and then go room to room clearing it. That means grenades are thrown in and they waste the enemy. That is war. You want to fault anyone, fault the terrorists who used these people as shields and attacked that convoy as they were surrounded by civilians.
Typical. Charges thrown out and “hey, they could still be bad guys, it just wasn’t proven, not enough evidence, yada yada yada.”
I know because I believe the Jury and those who dismissed the charges who all said the evidence proved they did as they were taught to do. Engage and destroy.
Dave Noble,
I do not dispute that 15 people were killed. I also do not blindly hold that any or all of those were necessarily innocent civilians. Neither are you in possession of the depth of their involvement. This urban warfare enemy does not wear a uniform, and have shown they can be women and children as well as young men. The enemy also hides behind the innocent. But this trial was not to determine their status, but to examine the actions of these Marines under the circumstances.
Do I believe they are “cold blooded” murderers? Absolutely not. Do I think they are “rotten apples”, out for a day of fun bloodfest? No. Did they snap? Only the courts, and the Marines themselves, could determine that.
Instead, I did is exactly as you suggested: “So let’s let the miliitary justice system do it’s job, and get out of the way.” And they have ruled. Apparently it is you who does not wish to accept their judgment, and chooses to keep them in the “guilty” column. Not I.
Absent a smoking, if it is the word of our street warriors vs a guy who portrayed himself falsely as a member of a human rights organization… accusing our servicemen… count me on our guys’ sides everytime.
Your question was what makes any of us think they did not commit war crimes. Answer: Because in a PC world where our military is quick to hang our soldiers out to dry, they knew they were under great media and world scrutiny. These Marines were up against extraordinary odds and adverse press for this trial. Their judgment, if found guilty, would have spread world wide instantly for the world to rail against the immoral, brutal, bloodthirsty US military once again.
By contrast, notice that the major media ignores the positive results of this trial. They cannot bring attention to it without bringing into question their credibility after following Murtha’s “guilty verdict” like willing sheep. Just as the Duke LaCrosse boys were tried, sentenced and executed by the media before their trial, these Marines suffered the same fate.
You will also note in the wake of exoneration, Murtha is silent. There is no apology for his unethical assault on these Marines’ due process. He does not acknowledge the courts decision. He is a miserable cur of a human.
I, nor any other poster, are using this for political purposes. We have nothing to gain. Murtha is not up for POTUS. I doubt he’s any of our representatives. Yet it was a standing Senator who utilized his elected position of power to state publicly… via media, talking head shows, and prior to both a military briefing and a trial – that these Marines “killed innocent civilians in cold blood”.
All was done in the heat of a desperate, hell-bent, anti-war/withdrawal agenda by the DNC in 2006-07. Those of us who raised the cry of “innocent until proven guilty” were drowned out by the cowardly majority who live to spit on our military, determined to believe the worst.
That, Dave Noble, is political.
BTW, I consider all of Congress elitists, regardless of party. My disdain for them cannot be more pronounced. No partisan bitterness here. There’s enuf to go around for all. Frankly I’d like to see a literal “House/Senate cleaning”… send ’em all home for real jobs, and replace them with those who don’t know how to “play the game”.
As far as your “coward” question… I see no instance of anyone here bringing up the term coward in the context of Murtha – save you. Freudian slip perhaps?
What makes you so sure the Marine’s committed war crimes, David?
How do you know these soldiers are not “the rotten apples in the barrel”, or maybe just young Marines who snapped under the unimaginable pressure of combat?
What evidence can you present that would lead one to this conclusion, David? On what basis do you draw a moral equivalence between hirabah and US Soldiers?
It is hard to define the context in a place where the enemy regularly tortures and beheads people, and murders children on a daily basis, and this seems to raise scant ire from individuals like David or from associations like IVAW. Hiraba can kill a dozen kids, or come to a classroom and murder a teacher in front of young students, and still be called ‘freedom fighters’. Extending this madness, the Istanbul Tribunal condoned such activities by ‘recognizing the right of Iraqi’s to resist the illegal occupation of their country.’
http://rwor.org/a/012/iraq-world-tribunal-istanbul.htm
Boot Murtha, Vote Trower!
Mata Harley,
You say:
“Apparently it is you who does not wish to accept their judgment, and chooses to keep them in the “guilty” column. Not I”
Skye,
You say:
“What makes you so sure the Marine’s committed war crimes, David?”
“What evidence can you present that would lead one to this conclusion, David? On what basis do you draw a moral equivalence between hirabah and US Soldiers?”
Just simply wrong. That’s a question, not a conclusion, Skye and Mata. I asked a question. As I said earlier, that’s the American way. Democracy cannot thrive in an atmosphere of groupthink. I know it’s far more fun (and easier) to make up a straw man and attack it, then to address what I actually said. I am not sure they committed a war crime. I do want to let the process run it’s course. The fact is they case is not closed except for the people on this thread. It’s not – “our side is winning 6 to 2, game over.”
Skye, that’s a canard that no one talks about the barbaric things the terrorists and the insurgents do. It’s been covered in the MSM. I condemn that barbarism. If you kill innnocent civilians you are not a freedom fighter, you’re a murderer.
If, and I say if, a war crime was committed at Haditha, it was done to an extent in my name as an American citizen. Those are our guys out there. I honor them, I pray for them, but if they commit a war crime, I want them to be prosecuted. If you kill innocent civilians, you’re not a good Marine either.
BTW, do you believe, Mahmudiya was a railroad job, or did they actually rape that girl and massacre her and her family? That is a separate case in my mind. I hope it is in yours as well.
Mata,
You say”
“Your question was what makes any of us think they did not commit war crimes. Answer: Because in a PC world where our military is quick to hang our soldiers out to dry, they knew they were under great media and world scrutiny. These Marines were up against extraordinary odds and adverse press for this trial. Their judgment, if found guilty, would have spread world wide instantly for the world to rail against the immoral, brutal, bloodthirsty US military once again.”
Do honestly believe that in the heat of battle, those Marines were thinking about how this would look in the press?
BTW, It wasn’t a Freudian slip, Mata:
19
DecMurtha To Be Deposed?
Posted by: Curt @ 8:45 pm in Haditha Marines
Good news, the coward Murtha may have to be sworn in and testify:
Curt,
What I said about the civilian and military justice systems is just simply true. You may want a simpler black and white world, Curt, but that’s not the one we live in.
I’ll be quiet if the last two are exonerated. I won’t say “hey, they could still be bad guys, it just wasn’t proven, not enough evidence, yada yada yada.”
Will you be quiet, or claim they were railroaded?
It’s been covered in the MSM
THAT is a CANARD! Has the barbarism of the hirabah graced the cover of the NYT’s 30+ days in a row? Has the barbarism been dissected as throughly as Hadita?
When was the last time the images of the corpes from a small village in Baquabah made headline news?
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/index.php?view=article&catid=51%3Abless-the-beasts-and-children&id=321%3Abless-the-beasts-and-children&option=com_content&Itemid=79
Michael Yon notes the media personnel stationed a few miles away ignored this common occurence by al-queda.
You have yet to posit any evidence backing your statements. But you certainly can backpedal…
War is ugly, innocents die – especially when placed in the line of fire by hirabah. Will you as activly prosecute al-queda for its war crimes? I’ve heard nothing from you about persuing legal prosecution of war crimes against al-queda – just against US Marines. Which leads one to believe you see al-queda as innocents in this fight.
All you have stated is a vague rejection of barbarism. Nothing specific or relevant to this discussion.
Skye,
This is vague?
“I condemn that barbarism. If you kill innnocent civilians you are not a freedom fighter, you’re a murderer. If, and I say if, a war crime was committed at Haditha, it was done to an extent in my name an American citizen. Those are our guys out there. I honor them, I pray for them, but if they commit a war crime, I want them to be prosecuted.”
I don’t know how I can be any clearer. Do you read my posts before you respond to them?
I’m vague because I don’t recite a litany of al-quadea and insurgent barbarism? Is that what I have to do to establish my bona fides? I can start with 3, 000 plus innocent civilians murdered on 9/11. How dare you challenge my response to the crimes of al quaeda? I watched 9/11 in real time. I saw the towers smoking and then watched them fall on television, and then turned and looked out my window to see them gone.
But what relevance does the war crimes of al quaeda have to the asssessment of any war crime committed by our troops? That is a rhetorical question to which the proper answer is “None.”
I am not prosecuting these Marines, the Marine Corps is. And it is not
my responsibility to prosecute al-quaeda. It appears that process is
moving along. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, after waterboarding, is going to trial.
I don’t see how you think al-quaeda is getting a pass here.
I never said the Haditha Marines are guilty. I clearly said early on that am an
agnostic on that issue and that I would leave it to the due process of
the military justice system. It is you and others on this thread who
seem averse to doing that because you have decided a priori that the
Marine Corps is running a kangaroo court for the benefit of the anti-war
crowd. If that make you feel comfortable in your worldview, so be it.
But are you really suggesting the Corps itself is toadying to the left?
My position has been consistent from the start. It’s the straw man you
created because you didn’t want to address my arguments that I am
disassociating myself from. And you call that “backpedaling”.
Along with my right to ask questions, don’t I also have a right to be free from having words put in my mouth?
If not, then I am on a Soviet Union/Iranian/Burmese thread, not an American thread.
And if that is the case, what am I doing here? That’s a question for you, not me.
How dare you challenge my response to the crimes of al quaeda? I watched 9/11 in real time.
You watched 9/11 unfold in real time – so did the cheering ‘palestinians’ on 9/11. Do you want to start posing for your statue to your noble intentions…
But what relevance does the war crimes of al quaeda have to the asssessment of any war crime committed by our troops?
Everything, especially when the alleged ‘war crimes’ against the Haditha Marines are, one by one, being found to be non-existant. 24 people are dead, yet you have never expressed any interest in the role al-queda played in their death on that day. Perhaps the weary, disillusioned footsoldiers of al-queda snapped under the unimaginable pressures of combat that particular day?
I am not prosecuting these Marines, the Marine Corps is
You are attempting to persecute the Marines, and I will not allow you to abuse the Marines in this fashion. The Marine Corp investigation has so far cleared the Marines of war crimes, and this seems unacceptable to you. Based on all of your statements, you will not accept anything less than the conviction of these Marines -despite the evidence to the contrary and the ruling of the Marine Corp.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, after waterboarding, is going to trial.
Real cute of you to deflect the issue with a non-relevant statement. Doesn’t fly here though.
I never said the Haditha Marines are guilty
Nor have you stated that they are NOT guilty. You have repeatedly stressed the importance of convicting US Soldiers of war crimes. What about convicting surviving members of al-queda of war crimes and violations of Geneva Conventions?
It is you and others on this thread who seem averse to doing that because you have decided a priori that the Marine Corps is running a kangaroo court for the benefit of the anti-war
crowd.
Labeling US Marines as ‘war criminals’ before any evidence or cross examination is presented is the province of those who claim to be agnostic on this issue. The IVAW and their handlers – VVAW/VFP are perfectly capable of running kangaroo courts – Silver Spring, MD anyone?
You have the right to ask questions, as I have the right to challenge your questions and put forth my own. Why is it the left of this argument is the first to cry ‘censorship’ in a debate??
Another Marine cleared.
How many is that now Dave Noble?