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	<title>Comments on: Iraqi&#8217;s Turning Against Religious Fanaticism.</title>
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	<link>http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: ChrisG</title>
		<link>http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22810</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22810</guid>
		<description>It is nicer than it was under both Saddam and later AQ influence.  Unfortunately, like people in Saudi Arabia are also discovering, the true face and intentions of AQ had to be shown to the people there in order for them to "wake up" and start fighting it.  It was not the US desire for that to happen, however, it did and now more in the Islamic world know exactly the kind of madmen and dictators AQ are and that no one  (non-AQ Islamic or "infidel") is safe in a territory ruled by AQ or its franchises.  

With that said, most of the West is still asleep in this regard.

A lot of the effort was in overcoming the fatalistic tendency in Islamic cultures to accept everything as "god's will" (inshallallah) and have no introspection.  This monumental change in the culture is slowly moving forward.  I alluded to this above in the quotes about who is causing the real problems in Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is nicer than it was under both Saddam and later AQ influence.  Unfortunately, like people in Saudi Arabia are also discovering, the true face and intentions of AQ had to be shown to the people there in order for them to &#8220;wake up&#8221; and start fighting it.  It was not the US desire for that to happen, however, it did and now more in the Islamic world know exactly the kind of madmen and dictators AQ are and that no one  (non-AQ Islamic or &#8220;infidel&#8221;) is safe in a territory ruled by AQ or its franchises.  </p>
<p>With that said, most of the West is still asleep in this regard.</p>
<p>A lot of the effort was in overcoming the fatalistic tendency in Islamic cultures to accept everything as &#8220;god&#8217;s will&#8221; (inshallallah) and have no introspection.  This monumental change in the culture is slowly moving forward.  I alluded to this above in the quotes about who is causing the real problems in Iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: jainphx</title>
		<link>http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22804</link>
		<dc:creator>jainphx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22804</guid>
		<description>The US has surely made a nice place out of Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The US has surely made a nice place out of Iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisG</title>
		<link>http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22360</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 01:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22360</guid>
		<description>I posted this on the other topic but wanted it here also.

&lt;blockquote&gt;BAGHDAD — After almost five years of war, many young people in Iraq, exhausted by constant firsthand exposure to the violence of religious extremism, say they have grown disillusioned with religious leaders and skeptical of the faith that they preach.

In two months of interviews with 40 young people in five Iraqi cities, a pattern of disenchantment emerged, in which young Iraqis, both poor and middle class, blamed clerics for the violence and the restrictions that have narrowed their lives. 

“I hate Islam and all the clerics because they limit our freedom every day and their instruction became heavy over us,” said Sara, a high school student in Basra. “Most of the girls in my high school hate that Islamic people control the authority because they don’t deserve to be rulers.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In the "Terrorist hyjacked Islam" view, the first two paragraphs support their thesis, as does the third, to an extent.

In the "Islam itself is the problem" view, the last paragraph above is the most telling in the lead of the story.  "I hate Islam" is a VERY couragous thing to say, considering the widely held belief that heresy such as this is punishable by death.

Both points of view/philosophies must also see the quote "Iraqis, both poor and middle class, blamed clerics for the violence and the restrictions that have narrowed their lives".  Not "evil American and Zionist crusaders", ISLAMIC CLERICs!!  This level of introspection is rare in Arabian/Persian Islamic history.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The shift in Iraq runs counter to trends of rising religious practice among young people across much of the Middle East, where religion has replaced nationalism as a unifying ideology. 

While religious extremists are admired by a number of young people in other parts of the Arab world, &lt;b&gt;Iraq offers a test case of what could happen when extremist theories are applied.&lt;/b&gt; Fingers caught in the act of smoking were broken. Long hair was cut and force-fed to its wearer. &lt;b&gt;In that laboratory, disillusionment with Islamic leaders took hold.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Remember what I stated above about terrorism and jihad in one's backyard......



&lt;blockquote&gt;“In the beginning, they gave their eyes and minds to the clerics; they trusted them,” said Abu Mahmoud, a moderate Sunni cleric in Baghdad, who now works deprogramming religious extremists in American detention. “It’s painful to admit, but it’s changed. People have lost too much. They say to the clerics and the parties: You cost us this.”

“When they behead someone, they say ‘Allahu akbar,’ they read Koranic verse,” said a moderate Shiite sheik from Baghdad, using the phrase for “God is great.”

“The young people, they think that is Islam,” he said. “So Islam is a failure, not only in the students’ minds, but also in the community.” 

A professor at Baghdad University’s School of Law, who identified herself only as Bushra, said of her students: “They have changed their views about religion. They started to hate religious men. They make jokes about them because they feel disgusted by them.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Again, both points of view can find validation.  In this case, I would side with the "Islam is the problem" as every time I see an IED video posted on youtube, "Allahu akbar" is there along with Koranic verses condoning the act.

Of note is the making jokes line.  Sadr is often called "The Down Sydrome Boy" because, well, he looks like a muppet with its mouth closed too tightly.  This admission by the professor is also punishable by death in both Sunni and Shia Islam.

&lt;blockquote&gt;That was not always the case. Saddam Hussein encouraged religion in Iraqi society in his later years, building Sunni mosques and injecting more religion into the public school curriculum, but always made sure it served his authoritarian needs.

Shiites, considered to be an opposing political force and a threat to Mr. Hussein’s power, were kept under close watch. Young Shiites who worshiped were seen as political subversives and risked attracting the attention of the police.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Just a reminder to debunk some of the NYT's earlier writings........



&lt;blockquote&gt;Zane Mohammed, a gangly 19-year-old with an earnest face, watched with curiosity as the first Islamists in his Baghdad neighborhood came to barbershops, tea parlors and carpentry stores before taking over the mosques. &lt;b&gt;They were neither uneducated nor poor, he said, though they focused on those who were.&lt;/b&gt; 

Then, one morning while waiting for a bus to school, he watched a man walk up to a neighbor, a college professor whose sect Mr. Mohammed did not know, shoot the neighbor at point blank range three times, and walk back to his car as calmly “as if he was leaving a grocery store.”

&lt;b&gt;“Nobody is thinking,” Mr. Mohammed said in an interview in October. “We use our minds just to know what to eat. This is something I am very sad about. We hear things and just believe them.”&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;


The article is three pages long and worth the read.  I leave you with two take-aways bolded from above.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I posted this on the other topic but wanted it here also.</p>
<blockquote><p>BAGHDAD — After almost five years of war, many young people in Iraq, exhausted by constant firsthand exposure to the violence of religious extremism, say they have grown disillusioned with religious leaders and skeptical of the faith that they preach.</p>
<p>In two months of interviews with 40 young people in five Iraqi cities, a pattern of disenchantment emerged, in which young Iraqis, both poor and middle class, blamed clerics for the violence and the restrictions that have narrowed their lives. </p>
<p>“I hate Islam and all the clerics because they limit our freedom every day and their instruction became heavy over us,” said Sara, a high school student in Basra. “Most of the girls in my high school hate that Islamic people control the authority because they don’t deserve to be rulers.”</p></blockquote>
<p>In the &#8220;Terrorist hyjacked Islam&#8221; view, the first two paragraphs support their thesis, as does the third, to an extent.</p>
<p>In the &#8220;Islam itself is the problem&#8221; view, the last paragraph above is the most telling in the lead of the story.  &#8220;I hate Islam&#8221; is a VERY couragous thing to say, considering the widely held belief that heresy such as this is punishable by death.</p>
<p>Both points of view/philosophies must also see the quote &#8220;Iraqis, both poor and middle class, blamed clerics for the violence and the restrictions that have narrowed their lives&#8221;.  Not &#8220;evil American and Zionist crusaders&#8221;, ISLAMIC CLERICs!!  This level of introspection is rare in Arabian/Persian Islamic history.</p>
<blockquote><p>The shift in Iraq runs counter to trends of rising religious practice among young people across much of the Middle East, where religion has replaced nationalism as a unifying ideology. </p>
<p>While religious extremists are admired by a number of young people in other parts of the Arab world, <b>Iraq offers a test case of what could happen when extremist theories are applied.</b> Fingers caught in the act of smoking were broken. Long hair was cut and force-fed to its wearer. <b>In that laboratory, disillusionment with Islamic leaders took hold.</b></p></blockquote>
<p>Remember what I stated above about terrorism and jihad in one&#8217;s backyard&#8230;&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>“In the beginning, they gave their eyes and minds to the clerics; they trusted them,” said Abu Mahmoud, a moderate Sunni cleric in Baghdad, who now works deprogramming religious extremists in American detention. “It’s painful to admit, but it’s changed. People have lost too much. They say to the clerics and the parties: You cost us this.”</p>
<p>“When they behead someone, they say ‘Allahu akbar,’ they read Koranic verse,” said a moderate Shiite sheik from Baghdad, using the phrase for “God is great.”</p>
<p>“The young people, they think that is Islam,” he said. “So Islam is a failure, not only in the students’ minds, but also in the community.” </p>
<p>A professor at Baghdad University’s School of Law, who identified herself only as Bushra, said of her students: “They have changed their views about religion. They started to hate religious men. They make jokes about them because they feel disgusted by them.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Again, both points of view can find validation.  In this case, I would side with the &#8220;Islam is the problem&#8221; as every time I see an IED video posted on youtube, &#8220;Allahu akbar&#8221; is there along with Koranic verses condoning the act.</p>
<p>Of note is the making jokes line.  Sadr is often called &#8220;The Down Sydrome Boy&#8221; because, well, he looks like a muppet with its mouth closed too tightly.  This admission by the professor is also punishable by death in both Sunni and Shia Islam.</p>
<blockquote><p>That was not always the case. Saddam Hussein encouraged religion in Iraqi society in his later years, building Sunni mosques and injecting more religion into the public school curriculum, but always made sure it served his authoritarian needs.</p>
<p>Shiites, considered to be an opposing political force and a threat to Mr. Hussein’s power, were kept under close watch. Young Shiites who worshiped were seen as political subversives and risked attracting the attention of the police.</p></blockquote>
<p>Just a reminder to debunk some of the NYT&#8217;s earlier writings&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
<blockquote><p>Zane Mohammed, a gangly 19-year-old with an earnest face, watched with curiosity as the first Islamists in his Baghdad neighborhood came to barbershops, tea parlors and carpentry stores before taking over the mosques. <b>They were neither uneducated nor poor, he said, though they focused on those who were.</b> </p>
<p>Then, one morning while waiting for a bus to school, he watched a man walk up to a neighbor, a college professor whose sect Mr. Mohammed did not know, shoot the neighbor at point blank range three times, and walk back to his car as calmly “as if he was leaving a grocery store.”</p>
<p><b>“Nobody is thinking,” Mr. Mohammed said in an interview in October. “We use our minds just to know what to eat. This is something I am very sad about. We hear things and just believe them.”</b></p></blockquote>
<p>The article is three pages long and worth the read.  I leave you with two take-aways bolded from above.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22353</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 00:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22353</guid>
		<description>Yes, they can keep it going. 

It was said at the end of WW II that the Japanese and Germans couldn't handle freedom. That it was alien concept to them. Both suceeded.

I don't expect any less different with the Iraqis. The more they taste freedom, it will better for them and for us.

But, I don't expect the MSM or the Dems (and some conservatives) to acknowledge Bush is right ... people yearn for freedom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, they can keep it going. </p>
<p>It was said at the end of WW II that the Japanese and Germans couldn&#8217;t handle freedom. That it was alien concept to them. Both suceeded.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t expect any less different with the Iraqis. The more they taste freedom, it will better for them and for us.</p>
<p>But, I don&#8217;t expect the MSM or the Dems (and some conservatives) to acknowledge Bush is right &#8230; people yearn for freedom.</p>
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		<title>By: Igor R.</title>
		<link>http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22349</link>
		<dc:creator>Igor R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 23:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22349</guid>
		<description>Well in all honesty what set them straight is not experiencing a little bit of freedom but a major nightmare.  I don't really think this is what Bush had in mind.  I can't really prove it now, but when the killings reached a fever pitch back in the November of '06 (to help our Democratic friends win the election) I started to think that this couldn't go on much longer uninterrupted.  People can only stand so much killing in their midst before turning against it.  Look at Europe after WWII.  After centuries of nationalism and two world wars they became such wussies that a couple of Imams can take over whole countries.   Well let's hope for change (always thinking 'bout you Barack) in the Middle Eastern attitudes.  That WAS a part of Bush's plan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well in all honesty what set them straight is not experiencing a little bit of freedom but a major nightmare.  I don&#8217;t really think this is what Bush had in mind.  I can&#8217;t really prove it now, but when the killings reached a fever pitch back in the November of &#8216;06 (to help our Democratic friends win the election) I started to think that this couldn&#8217;t go on much longer uninterrupted.  People can only stand so much killing in their midst before turning against it.  Look at Europe after WWII.  After centuries of nationalism and two world wars they became such wussies that a couple of Imams can take over whole countries.   Well let&#8217;s hope for change (always thinking &#8217;bout you Barack) in the Middle Eastern attitudes.  That WAS a part of Bush&#8217;s plan.</p>
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		<title>By: bill-tb</title>
		<link>http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22344</link>
		<dc:creator>bill-tb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 23:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/03/04/iraqis-turning-against-religious-fanaticism/#comment-22344</guid>
		<description>Yes, but can they keep it. Aye that is the question, for America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but can they keep it. Aye that is the question, for America.</p>
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