Mukasey To Dem’s - Waterboarding Not Clearly Illegal

What it boils down to is do we want to win the war or not? The enemies have no rules other than kill kill kill. Why handcuff the good guys? Our own Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen are subjected to it in SERE training. In some cases, going even further should be acceptable. But not as a general rule!! If Osama’s #2 were captured, or they had a guy that knew when a nuke was going to go off in Las Vegas? Should they give him a falafel and coke and ask gently? Hell, no, pull his fingernails out and peel his skin off until he started squawking!

Conservatives now believe in torture.

That is where they have brought our country.

Didn’t American once stand for a set of ideals that meant something?

No longer. Now we only claim that we do not torture as badly as the worst people in the world. It is OK to torture human beings, just as long as we do not go as far as the worst people in the world do.

That is how low Conservatives have brought our country. And they are very proud of having done it.

Hey Philly Steve: Do me a favor… Move to the Library Tower in L.A. after McCheese or Hillabama gets elected.

Since we won’t be waterboarding the terrorist monsters who sought to bring that building down the first time, we won’t miss you as much when it gets struck.

One more thing Steve.

Our guys (you know, the good guys) captured Bin Laden’s security coordinator earlier this month.

Would you say that a little tough questioning might be in order for this guy?

Or should we just ply him with falafel and Diet Coke and hope that he fills us in on what we need to know out of the goodness of his heart?

I’d vote for peeling his toenails off slowly one by one if that’s what it took to keep my family (or yours) safe, but then again that’s just me, the evil Conservative.

What say you?

Steve,

In your idiotic, fanatical attacks on conservatives, you forget that “waterboarding” or any other such method is a last resort and was cleared for use by Democrats in Congress.

You also fail to note how rarely it was used (3 cases). We are not talking Saddam’s electric torture rooms. We are talking about something more than a stern talking too.

BTW, what is your glorious plan to defend us from real threats? Your socialist democratic party has failed repeatedly to have any plans. Maybe in your hate-filled bile, you have one?

And having just read your latest moronicy:

AT NO TIME HAVE WE EVER STATED WE WANT TO TORTURE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOW THE HELL CAN YOU EVEN THINK THIS???

Let me guess, your “final solution” is to silence us “evil conservatives”?

You want a “discrace”, look left.

You really are a pathetic, insane, hateful moron!!!

Some actual laws and regulations on dealing with illegal combatants, spies, etc. This is US Code, derived from various sources including the Geneva Conventions. This is in addition to the obvious points of the legal costs and the propaganda effect for the leftists and jihadists.

From FM 27-10 “Law of Land Warfare”

61. Prisoners of War Defined
a. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided
that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

73. Persons Committing Hostile
Acts Not Entitled To Be Treated as Prisoners of War

If a person is determined by a competent tribunal, acting in conformity with Article 5, GPW (par. 71), not to fall within any of the categories listed in Article 4, GPW (par. 61), he is not entitled to be treated as a prisoner of war. He is, however, a “protected person” within the meaning of Article 4, GC (par. 247). (See paras. 247 and 248, concerning the status of such
“protected persons” who have engaged in conduct hostile to the opposing belligerent.)

74. Necessity of Uniform
Members of the armed forces of a party to the conflict and members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces lose their right to be treated as prisoners of war whenever they deliberately conceal their status in order to pass behind the military lines of the enemy for the purpose of gathering military information or for the purpose of waging war by
destruction of life or property. Putting on civilian clothes or the uniform of the enemy are examples of concealment of the status of a member of the armed forces.

75. Spies
a Treaty Provision.
A person can only be considered a spy when, acting clandestinely or on false pretences, he obtains or endeavors to obtain information in the zone of operations of a belligerent, with the intention of communicating it to the hostile party.
Thus, soldiers not wearing a disguise who have penetrated into the zone of operations of the hostile army, for the purpose of obtaining information, are not considered spies. Similarly, the following are not considered spies: Soldiers and civilians, carrying out their mission openly, intrusted with the delivery of despatches intended either for their own army or for the enemy’s army. To this class belong likewise persons sent in balloons for the purpose of carrying dispatches and, generally, of maintaining
communications between the different parts of an army or a territory. (HR, art. 29.)

b. American Statutory Definition. The first paragraph of the foregoing Hague Regulation
has been in effect somewhat modified, as far as American practice is concerned, by the
subsequently enacted Article 106 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (64 Stat. 138; 50 U. S.

C. 700), as follows:
Art. 106. Spies.—Any person who in time of war is found lurking as a spy or acting as a spy in or about any place, vessel, or aircraft, within the control or jurisdiction of any of the armed forces of the United States, or in or about any shipyard, any manufacturing or industrial plant, or any other place or institution engaged in work in aid of the prosecution of the war by the United States, or elsewhere, shall be tried by a general court- martial or by a military commission and on conviction shall be punished by death.

c. Article 106 Governs. Insofar as Article 29, HR, and Article 106, Uniform Code of Military Justice, are not in conflict with each other, they will be construed and applied together. Otherwise Article 106 governs American practice.

79. Aiding the Enemy
a. American Statutory Definition.
Any person who—
(1) aids or attempts to aid, the enemy with arms, ammunition, supplies, money, or other thing; or

(2) without proper authority, knowingly harbors or protects or gives intelligence to, or communicates or corresponds with or holds any intercourse with the enemy, either directly or indirectly; shall suffer death or such other punishment as a court-martial or military commission may direct. (UCMJ, Art 104; 64 Stat. 138; 50 U.S.C. 698.)

b. Interpretation. In time of war, the rule of the above article is general in its application to all persons whether or not otherwise subject to military law and without regard to citizenship or military or civil status, who give aid to an enemy overnment or persons adhering to it. It may be that this statute, should it be subjected to judicial interpretation, would be held to authorize the trial of civilians by military tribunals only when the offense had been committed in territory under martial law or military government, or within the zone of military operations, or within areas invaded by the United States, or within or in the vicinity of a military installation, or in a place otherwise subject to military jurisdiction. Cases occurring in the United States outside military jurisdiction are triable by the civil courts under the espionage laws mentioned above (par. 76) and laws relating to treason (18 U.S.C. (chap. 115)).

******THIS ONE IS VERY IMPORTANT

80. Individuals Not of Armed Forces Who Engage in Hostilities

Persons, such as guerrillas and partisans, who take up arms and commit hostile acts without having complied with the conditions pre-scribed by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents (see GPW, art. 4; par. 61 herein), are, when captured by the injured party, not entitled to be treated as prisoners of war and may be tried and sentenced to execution or imprisonment.

81. Individuals Not of Armed Forces Who Commit Hostile Acts
Persons who, without having complied with the conditions pre-scribed by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents (see GPW, art. 4; par. 61 herein), commit hostile acts about or behind the lines of the enemy are not to be treated as prisoners of war and may be tried and sentenced to execution or imprisonment. Such acts include, but are not limited to, sabotage, destruction of communications facilities, intentional misleading of troops by guides, liberation of prisoners of war, and other acts not falling within Articles 104 and 106 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and Article 29 of the Hague Regulations.

82. Penalties for the Foregoing
Persons in the foregoing categories who have attempted, committed, or conspired to commit hostile or belligerent acts are subject to the extreme penalty of death because of the danger inherent in their conduct. Lesser penalties may, however, be imposed.

So, in short, these terrorists should be more than thankful that the USA is not half the monster the left and their islamofascist allies makes us out to be as we are well within our rights to shoot them. Also, we should ask why many of these “anti-war” groups are not punished for providing aid and comfort to the terrorists. But that is a different topic.

This is US Federal Code and UCMJ regulations. If the Dems in Congress are so outraged by decades old laws, then they should change them, as more than a few of them have been around long enough to have written parts of these current regulations.

As far as calling “waterboarding” torture….I’d say there are gradations of what we might label as constituting torture. There’s a difference between, say, sleep deprivation, and scooping someone’s eyeballs out with a spoon.

Can any of you Conservatives cite an actual, documented case, where a real ticking time bomb (just like in “24″) was found?

Aside from Mike’s example, there’s also a case where a German police captain saved the life of a boy who was buried alive, with the mere threat of torture to an uncooperative kidnapper. The police captain was fired, but because they did not have the luxury of time, his actions saved the life of the boy.

This is mentioned about in Mark Bowden’s piece, In Defense of Waterboarding. It’s a fair and balanced piece, which basically has Bowden (author of “Black Hawk Down”) believing that torture (including waterboarding) should be illegal, but is morally justified in extreme cases where time is of the essence. And in case anyone misconstrues his position, he also offers a clarification. It’s worth the read.

“There is not one single Conservative with the moral fortitude to say “torture is wrong”, without the “Bush escape clause” that has served so many others over the years.”

Actually, it’s not a conservative bit. That’s almost verbatim Senator Barack Obama’s latest comment on the torture issue, and it mirrors at least one of Senator Clinton’s comments.

btw, I’m against torture. I think when a person’s caught shooting at American troops, and they’re not wearing a uniform then they should be simply asked questions once, then shot on sight per the rules of capturing a spy.

Somehow, I don’t see a six year old girl as being a criminal mastermind of a Islamic extremist terrorist cell that’s planning to build bombs on planes and have them simultaneously explode over the Atlantic, BUT HEY…maybe on Steve’s planet that happens.

Re: “btw, I’m against torture. I think when a person’s caught shooting at American troops, and they’re not wearing a uniform then they should be simply asked questions once, then shot on sight per the rules of capturing a spy.”

However that is not the circumstances under which Americans are tortutring prisoners now. Citing as justification circumstances that do not apply to the situation at hand is desceptive.

Perfect non-answer as usual Steve. Now, as stated before in previous topics, these methods are only used after ALL others are exhausted and these methods were reviewed by congress and there was no problems then.

So, oh “brilliant” progressive elitist, what is YOUR solution?