Comments on: Iranian Bully Confronts US, And We Blink http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/ Sun, 22 Nov 2009 04:20:24 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Curt http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10981 Curt Thu, 10 Jan 2008 03:15:37 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10981 Thats a policy now? 200 yards? Please direct me to that policy and if it is like you say it is I will then backtrack and say they were just following policy. I won't blame the commander for following policy, god knows I have to deal with enough of that on the Sheriff's Dept. I would then say the policy is bullshit tho. But those are usually written by guys in suits who have no clue what real combat is like. <blockquote>I’ll leave this as my last message as I don’t wish for your wife to become jealous</blockquote> Rofl....won't happen because you know what happens when you tell the ladies they nag too much. It's not good. Thats a policy now? 200 yards? Please direct me to that policy and if it is like you say it is I will then backtrack and say they were just following policy. I won’t blame the commander for following policy, god knows I have to deal with enough of that on the Sheriff’s Dept.

I would then say the policy is bullshit tho. But those are usually written by guys in suits who have no clue what real combat is like.

I’ll leave this as my last message as I don’t wish for your wife to become jealous

Rofl….won’t happen because you know what happens when you tell the ladies they nag too much.

It’s not good.

]]> By: Random http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10976 Random Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:45:40 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10976 Curt you may be misunderstanding me. America in recent years seems to have a policy of don’t shoot, unless you are in imminent danger. From what I see, and all the information I have that point of danger doesn’t occur in this situation until somewhere between 50 and 200 yards. I have shown you different scenarios to back up my assertion. The commander appears to have followed that policy by waiting until they hit 200 yards to open fire. If you have a problem with the policy, come out and say so. Blame the policy makers. While I MAY not support a change, I can fully see your point, and I would readily agree with the facts that the policy to date has lead to tragedies, Beirut and the Cole being two of the worst. It would be a basis for discusion. I just see saying 200 yards as a cop out from what you really want. Kicking Iran in the balls when they try this shit. Heck myself and ¾ of the readers here have the same gut feeling. However I can’t blame a commander for following the policies the US has used up till now, nor the policies that, Arguably, MAY be the best politically for us. I’ll leave this as my last message as I don’t wish for your wife to become jealous, Thanks for a great site to voice our opinions. Random Curt you may be misunderstanding me. America in recent years seems to have a policy of don’t shoot, unless you are in imminent danger. From what I see, and all the information I have that point of danger doesn’t occur in this situation until somewhere between 50 and 200 yards. I have shown you different scenarios to back up my assertion. The commander appears to have followed that policy by waiting until they hit 200 yards to open fire.

If you have a problem with the policy, come out and say so. Blame the policy makers. While I MAY not support a change, I can fully see your point, and I would readily agree with the facts that the policy to date has lead to tragedies, Beirut and the Cole being two of the worst. It would be a basis for discusion.

I just see saying 200 yards as a cop out from what you really want. Kicking Iran in the balls when they try this shit. Heck myself and ¾ of the readers here have the same gut feeling.

However I can’t blame a commander for following the policies the US has used up till now, nor the policies that, Arguably, MAY be the best politically for us.

I’ll leave this as my last message as I don’t wish for your wife to become jealous,

Thanks for a great site to voice our opinions.

Random

]]> By: Random http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10973 Random Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:18:33 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10973 And your like my girl friend saying she FEELS something is wrong. I don’t want touchy feelings. :) Once again you say 200 yards is to close. I am not asking for your opinion, I think we all know you FEEL that it is to close. But a WHY is it to close. Let me give you an example. I would say 20 yards is to close. If asked why I would say that I would answer that as far as I know the speed of the Iranian boats would be sufficient to put the boat within striking range before we could stop it from detonating a suicide bomb, as was used against the Cole, causing massive damage and loss of life. I could say 5 miles is to close. I would once again justify, albeit with out of date 1980's-1990's missile data, that at closer then 5 miles a large number of the missiles that China, France, USSR sell third world countries become effective at that range. Mind you this is taken from data when I used to track cold war armaments, and yes that dates me. I could try saying 500-1000 yards is to close, and try to justify it, Though very weakly in my opinion, with the fact that hand held weapons start to become effective against Ship personnel at that range. Yes I know in reality they couldn't hit worth a damn, but that’s an example. You just keep pulling this magical number up with no backing for it. No reason why. You decry the left for not justifying their claims with reliable data yet you are criticizing the command WITH NO DATA. You decry Murtha for his criticism of troops without waiting for all the information. Don't you see you are doing the same sort of thing? And your like my girl friend saying she FEELS something is wrong. I don’t want touchy feelings. :)

Once again you say 200 yards is to close. I am not asking for your opinion, I think we all know you FEEL that it is to close. But a WHY is it to close. Let me give you an example.

I would say 20 yards is to close. If asked why I would say that I would answer that as far as I know the speed of the Iranian boats would be sufficient to put the boat within striking range before we could stop it from detonating a suicide bomb, as was used against the Cole, causing massive damage and loss of life.

I could say 5 miles is to close. I would once again justify, albeit with out of date 1980’s-1990’s missile data, that at closer then 5 miles a large number of the missiles that China, France, USSR sell third world countries become effective at that range. Mind you this is taken from data when I used to track cold war armaments, and yes that dates me.

I could try saying 500-1000 yards is to close, and try to justify it, Though very weakly in my opinion, with the fact that hand held weapons start to become effective against Ship personnel at that range. Yes I know in reality they couldn’t hit worth a damn, but that’s an example.

You just keep pulling this magical number up with no backing for it. No reason why. You decry the left for not justifying their claims with reliable data yet you are criticizing the command WITH NO DATA. You decry Murtha for his criticism of troops without waiting for all the information. Don’t you see you are doing the same sort of thing?

]]> By: Curt http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10968 Curt Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:50:10 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10968 Holy christ...you're like my wife, nag nag nag. Taking the totality of circumstances, especially the items that we're dropped coupled with their threats, 200yds is too close. Could they have been under orders not too fire, sure. But then I would blame the person giving the orders. Holy christ…you’re like my wife, nag nag nag. Taking the totality of circumstances, especially the items that we’re dropped coupled with their threats, 200yds is too close.

Could they have been under orders not too fire, sure. But then I would blame the person giving the orders.

]]> By: Random http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10952 Random Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:48:11 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10952 I never said they shouldn't be criticized. I said they shouldn't be criticized until all the facts are in. As far as I can tell, and from your original statement you feel for some unknown and still unexplained reason that 200 yards suddenly makes them negligent. How is this any different then when Murtha blasts our troops for incidents that he has not seen all the facts for? Are you saying that's OK to do? I've already asked you multiple times and will ask you again, WHAT is so magical about 200 yards that doesn't apply at 300 Yards or 1000 or 2000? And you still have failed to give a logical reasoned response. Your entire response seems to be, "I JUST FEEL IT'S TO CLOSE" Without anything to back it up. If a liberal said "I feel that our troops are wrong, because, well I feel that way!" You would be all over them. To top it off, for all any of us know the commanders may well have been ordered NOT to engage at greater then 200 yards, In which case you are blasting them for obeying orders. Once again, WHAT SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN DANGER WAS THERE BETWEEN 200 YARDS AND 2000 YARDS? What is the difference between you jumping on the soldiers from an arm chair at home, without all the facts, and a Liberal Blogger, or congressman doing the same thing? Random I never said they shouldn’t be criticized. I said they shouldn’t be criticized until all the facts are in.

As far as I can tell, and from your original statement you feel for some unknown and still unexplained reason that 200 yards suddenly makes them negligent.

How is this any different then when Murtha blasts our troops for incidents that he has not seen all the facts for? Are you saying that’s OK to do?

I’ve already asked you multiple times and will ask you again, WHAT is so magical about 200 yards that doesn’t apply at 300 Yards or 1000 or 2000? And you still have failed to give a logical reasoned response. Your entire response seems to be, “I JUST FEEL IT’S TO CLOSE” Without anything to back it up.

If a liberal said “I feel that our troops are wrong, because, well I feel that way!” You would be all over them.

To top it off, for all any of us know the commanders may well have been ordered NOT to engage at greater then 200 yards, In which case you are blasting them for obeying orders.

Once again, WHAT SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN DANGER WAS THERE BETWEEN 200 YARDS AND 2000 YARDS?

What is the difference between you jumping on the soldiers from an arm chair at home, without all the facts, and a Liberal Blogger, or congressman doing the same thing?

Random

]]> By: Curt http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10945 Curt Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:59:00 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10945 Being a Marine I criticized plenty of brass in my time and to suggest that they should never be criticized is asinine. I will be damned if I won't do it if it's called for. Everyone makes mistakes, I did when I was in and this commander did imo. They were threatened and rushed...200yds is just too damn close to me. You don't agree, so be it. Being a Marine I criticized plenty of brass in my time and to suggest that they should never be criticized is asinine. I will be damned if I won’t do it if it’s called for. Everyone makes mistakes, I did when I was in and this commander did imo.

They were threatened and rushed…200yds is just too damn close to me. You don’t agree, so be it.

]]> By: Scott http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10928 Scott Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:58:32 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10928 If 3 ships are traveling through a strait with no room to turn around, and Revolutionary Guard speedboats radio them, threaten them, then drop "boxes" in front of them, I personally think that's the time to open fire, but I don't criticize as much as applaud them for their restraint. Me, well, I don't have a lot of trigger control; a bit more reactionary in a dangerous situation, and that's why I applaud them. If 3 ships are traveling through a strait with no room to turn around, and Revolutionary Guard speedboats radio them, threaten them, then drop “boxes” in front of them, I personally think that’s the time to open fire, but I don’t criticize as much as applaud them for their restraint. Me, well, I don’t have a lot of trigger control; a bit more reactionary in a dangerous situation, and that’s why I applaud them.

]]> By: Random http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10916 Random Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:13:04 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10916 Scott, 200 yards is what Curt criticized the naval commanders for. He said.... "Also, what the hell were the commanders of our ships thinking? Letting these crafts get within 200 yards of our ships? What the hell!" He never even mentioned boxes, Iranian nukes, or any thing else in his attack on the captain. Not until he has made 3 posts dodging the question of 200 yards does he even mention such things. He has yet to explain why the commander should be criticized for not firing at 200 yards as opposed to 2000 yards. What is the difference? I take criticizing our service men quite seriously and try to give them the benefit of the doubt, unlike Murtha, and many other who want to condemn them without all the facts. I don't know what orders the commander had, do you? Does Curt? They may well have been told by the Commander in Chief himself "Do not fire unless an attack boat gets to within 100 yards." If that's the case then Curt is criticizing them for following a direct order. The boxes may have been small light bread boxes unable to do any real damage, or huge cargo crates. I don’t know. They may have been dropped a mile off and thus been no threat. I have no details, nor have I herd anyone else give such details. Most certainly not Curt, whose initial complaint and for 3 post after was about "200 yards". I will be damned before I criticize a US Navy commander with out having these basic questions as well as several dozen other questions answered. Curt seems to want to go the other way, which truly does surprise me. Our military men have a tough enough job to do without playing politics and to criticize them, in an incident that saw no casualties or gross misconduct, without all the facts on the table is wrong. It's wrong when a Liberal does it, and it's just as wrong when a conservative does it. Random Scott, 200 yards is what Curt criticized the naval commanders for. He said….

“Also, what the hell were the commanders of our ships thinking? Letting these crafts get within 200 yards of our ships? What the hell!”

He never even mentioned boxes, Iranian nukes, or any thing else in his attack on the captain. Not until he has made 3 posts dodging the question of 200 yards does he even mention such things.

He has yet to explain why the commander should be criticized for not firing at 200 yards as opposed to 2000 yards. What is the difference?

I take criticizing our service men quite seriously and try to give them the benefit of the doubt, unlike Murtha, and many other who want to condemn them without all the facts.

I don’t know what orders the commander had, do you? Does Curt? They may well have been told by the Commander in Chief himself “Do not fire unless an attack boat gets to within 100 yards.” If that’s the case then Curt is criticizing them for following a direct order.

The boxes may have been small light bread boxes unable to do any real damage, or huge cargo crates. I don’t know. They may have been dropped a mile off and thus been no threat. I have no details, nor have I herd anyone else give such details. Most certainly not Curt, whose initial complaint and for 3 post after was about “200 yards”.

I will be damned before I criticize a US Navy commander with out having these basic questions as well as several dozen other questions answered. Curt seems to want to go the other way, which truly does surprise me.

Our military men have a tough enough job to do without playing politics and to criticize them, in an incident that saw no casualties or gross misconduct, without all the facts on the table is wrong.

It’s wrong when a Liberal does it, and it’s just as wrong when a conservative does it.

Random

]]> By: Scott http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10911 Scott Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:24:39 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10911 200yds, 2000yds...doesn't matter. Threatening actions do. When they went in front of the ships-crossing their paths, dropping unknown objects in front of the ships, and sending threatening radio calls to the ships...that's dangerous. There's no way to tell what's inside a bland looking box until it's hit, goes off, or is passed. What does one do? Blow it off, or blow em away? I think the Navy did a good job, and I can only hope that every weapons mount radar was volted up, targeted, and irradiating the morons as much as possible. I have a tough time understanding John's comment that people just want to go to war with Iran, when it was the Iranians making the threatening statements and threatening actions (doing things that appeared to be minelaying right in front of several US ships). Tip o the hat to the USN, and a flip of the finger to those who even remotely suggest that this is an example of American warmongering, fear-mongering, or anything less than the IRANIAN effort to provoke military action. Such suggestions aren't only childish, but their dangerous. 200yds, 2000yds…doesn’t matter. Threatening actions do. When they went in front of the ships-crossing their paths, dropping unknown objects in front of the ships, and sending threatening radio calls to the ships…that’s dangerous. There’s no way to tell what’s inside a bland looking box until it’s hit, goes off, or is passed. What does one do? Blow it off, or blow em away? I think the Navy did a good job, and I can only hope that every weapons mount radar was volted up, targeted, and irradiating the morons as much as possible.

I have a tough time understanding John’s comment that people just want to go to war with Iran, when it was the Iranians making the threatening statements and threatening actions (doing things that appeared to be minelaying right in front of several US ships).

Tip o the hat to the USN, and a flip of the finger to those who even remotely suggest that this is an example of American warmongering, fear-mongering, or anything less than the IRANIAN effort to provoke military action. Such suggestions aren’t only childish, but their dangerous.

]]> By: Random http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10910 Random Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:11:08 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10910 "Thick head?" I see you are now resorting to Adhominen attacks. You still after multiple posts FAIL to say why 200 yards is significant as compared to 2000 yards. Your dodgeing the question and trying to now change the debate. You said in your main article "Also, what the hell were the commanders of our ships thinking? Letting these crafts get within 200 yards of our ships? What the hell!" I responded in my first post #4 with a reply devoted almost TOTALY to your statement of 200 yards. You responeded in #5 about 200 Yards, and in #7 tried to imply 200 yards was the same as 10 yards. In number 6, 8 and 9 I have maintained that 200 yards is not a significnt number to critisize are military over. "Thick head?" I see you are now resorting to Ad hominine attacks. You still after multiple posts FAIL to say why 200 yards is significant as compared to 2000 yards. Your dodging the question and trying to now change the debate. You said in your main article "Also, what the hell were the commanders of our ships thinking? Letting these crafts get within 200 yards of our ships? What the hell!" I responded in my first post #4 with a reply devoted almost TOTALY to your statement of 200 yards. You responded in #5 about 200 Yards, and in #7 tried to imply 200 yards was the same as 10 yards. In number 6, 8 and 9 I have maintained that 200 yards is not a significant number to criticize are military over. Now in number 11 you try dodging my direct question “WHY IS 200 YARDS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT FROM 2000 YARDS?!?” and to change the subject to areas I have never even addressed. In fact in your last post you SUDDENLY don’t even mention 200 yards. I will take it you now acknowledge that 200 yards is not significant? If that is not the case then please repond with a dirrect reply to this question WHY IS 200 YARDS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT FROM 2000 YARDS?!? Random “Thick head?”

I see you are now resorting to Adhominen attacks.

You still after multiple posts FAIL to say why 200 yards is significant as compared to 2000 yards. Your dodgeing the question and trying to now change the debate.

You said in your main article
“Also, what the hell were the commanders of our ships thinking? Letting these crafts get within 200 yards of our ships? What the hell!”

I responded in my first post #4 with a reply devoted almost TOTALY to your statement of 200 yards.

You responeded in #5 about 200 Yards, and in #7 tried to imply 200 yards was the same as 10 yards.

In number 6, 8 and 9 I have maintained that 200 yards is not a significnt number to critisize are military over.

“Thick head?”

I see you are now resorting to Ad hominine attacks.

You still after multiple posts FAIL to say why 200 yards is significant as compared to 2000 yards. Your dodging the question and trying to now change the debate.

You said in your main article
“Also, what the hell were the commanders of our ships thinking? Letting these crafts get within 200 yards of our ships? What the hell!”

I responded in my first post #4 with a reply devoted almost TOTALY to your statement of 200 yards.

You responded in #5 about 200 Yards, and in #7 tried to imply 200 yards was the same as 10 yards.

In number 6, 8 and 9 I have maintained that 200 yards is not a significant number to criticize are military over.

Now in number 11 you try dodging my direct question
“WHY IS 200 YARDS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT FROM 2000 YARDS?!?”

and to change the subject to areas I have never even addressed. In fact in your last post you SUDDENLY don’t even mention 200 yards. I will take it you now acknowledge that 200 yards is not significant? If that is not the case then please repond with a dirrect reply to this question

WHY IS 200 YARDS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT FROM 2000 YARDS?!?

Random

]]> By: John Ryan http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10896 John Ryan Wed, 09 Jan 2008 16:46:16 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10896 As for teh Iranians having lost it ??? Sounds more like those advocating PANIC!! have lost it. Thankfully cooler heads stopped this from escalating. As for teh Iranians having lost it ???
Sounds more like those advocating PANIC!! have lost it. Thankfully cooler heads stopped this from escalating.

]]> By: John Ryan http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10893 John Ryan Wed, 09 Jan 2008 16:40:34 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10893 Some people just like to PANIC ! and go straight to war with Iran Some people just like to PANIC ! and go straight to war with Iran

]]> By: Curt http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10888 Curt Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:39:08 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10888 Get this through your thick head Random. The commanders of a US Navy Warship allowed three Iranian boats to rush their ships, as the Iranians are telling them that they will be attacked. They tossed boxes into the water which very well could of been (for all they knew) mines. We already know Iran supplies weapons that kill our troops in Iraq. We already know that they are attempting to build a nuke. Now three ships RUSHED our ships while tossing objects into the water and the commander of our ship obviously didn't believe it was worthy of engaging them. He and the rest of the world already have proof that the Iranians have lost it, what more did this commander need? Also, check out the update to my post. Get this through your thick head Random. The commanders of a US Navy Warship allowed three Iranian boats to rush their ships, as the Iranians are telling them that they will be attacked.

They tossed boxes into the water which very well could of been (for all they knew) mines.

We already know Iran supplies weapons that kill our troops in Iraq. We already know that they are attempting to build a nuke. Now three ships RUSHED our ships while tossing objects into the water and the commander of our ship obviously didn’t believe it was worthy of engaging them. He and the rest of the world already have proof that the Iranians have lost it, what more did this commander need?

Also, check out the update to my post.

]]> By: Philadelphia Steve http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10885 Philadelphia Steve Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:20:47 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10885 Tossing in my opinion. 200 yards or 2000 yards are not significant, since neither one wold afford the time to react to any kind of missle fired from the ship, but neither range is sufficient for a suicide bomb to mean anything. Under twenty yards is too close. 1-10 miles is not feasible in the close waters of the Persian Gulf since that would effective close the waterway: Something we are trying to prevent. Tossing in my opinion. 200 yards or 2000 yards are not significant, since neither one wold afford the time to react to any kind of missle fired from the ship, but neither range is sufficient for a suicide bomb to mean anything. Under twenty yards is too close.

1-10 miles is not feasible in the close waters of the Persian Gulf since that would effective close the waterway: Something we are trying to prevent.

]]> By: Random http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10852 Random Wed, 09 Jan 2008 08:07:07 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/01/08/iranian-bully-confronts-us-and-we-blink/#comment-10852 Forgot to mention, I specificly state in post 4 that "Suicide explosive device? Needs to be within a few dozen yards to have any real effect, and prefferably point blank." You said "It most definitely mattered. Why not just let them get to within 10 yards then if the range didn’t matter." As far as I am aware "10 yards" is less then "a few dozen" so if you had read my post you would see I already knew that 10 yards WOULD be a dangerouse distance. Random Forgot to mention, I specificly state in post 4 that

“Suicide explosive device? Needs to be within a few dozen yards to have any real effect, and prefferably point blank.”

You said

“It most definitely mattered. Why not just let them get to within 10 yards then if the range didn’t matter.”

As far as I am aware “10 yards” is less then “a few dozen” so if you had read my post you would see I already knew that 10 yards WOULD be a dangerouse distance.

Random

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