More Ron Paul Nuttiness

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Only the Ron Paul nuts would believe that it’s a-ok for any fringe group to make their own currency:

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In an all-out battle, Liberty Dollar in
Evansville, Indiana, has issued the 2008 Peace Dollar to “Stop the
War.” As if President Bush’s unpopular war does not have enough
problems, the Peace Dollar appears to offer an attractive way for the
antiwar forces to gain strategic ground at a profit.

Liberty Dollar recently issued a “Presidential” Ron Paul Dollar in
support of the Republican peace candidate. Now it asks peace-seeking
Americans to start using the Peace Dollar and stop using the US War
Dollar, as it finances the Iraq War.

The 2008 Peace Dollar is not government money and cannot be used to
fund the war in Iraq. It is good for peace and bad for war. The
government uses their printing presses to make money out of thin air to
finance their war by diluting every American’s purchasing power…
hence higher gas and food prices.

Bernard von NotHaus, the fiery monetary architect of the Liberty
Dollar, says that by accepting and spending Peace Dollars, peaceful
people can force the government to “Stop the War” because the
government will have less money to pay for it. He encourages
peace-loving people to use a Peace Dollar the next time they spend
money and “Give peace a chance.”

The $10 Peace Dollar is a legal functioning currency dedicated to
stop the war. As a private voluntary barter currency it can be used
anywhere it is accepted. It is “real money” minted in pure silver and
copper that exchanges dollar-for-dollar with the US war dollar.
It is
dedicated to establishing peace and bringing our boys home. The 2008
Peace Dollar has a face value of ten “Liberty Dollars” and contains
one-half ounce of pure .999 fine silver. The $1 Copper Peace Dollar
contains one ounce of pure copper.

And they found out the hard way:

I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a
dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in
Evansville.

For approximately six hours they took all the gold,
all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul
Dollars that where just delivered last Friday. They also took all the
files, all the computers and froze our bank accounts.

We have
no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was
ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push
forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right
to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to
be defrauded by the fake government money.

But to make matters
worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and
digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been
confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have
been taken.

This is fraud, plain and simple.  People cannot just come up with their own form of currency, start to use it, and then expect no consequences.  One of the main reasons the National Bank and Federal Reserve was set up was due to how fraudulent these currencies people came up with were.  Unless the currency is backed by something of real monetary value then it’s worthless, and unconstitutional (oh my, a Paulbot going against the Constitution!  No way!):

Under the Constitution ( Article I, section 8, clause 5 ), Congress has the exclusive power to coin money of the United States and to regulate its value. By statute ( 31 U.S.C. § 5112(a) ),
Congress specifies the coins that the Secretary of the Treasury is
authorized to mint and issue and requires the Secretary to carry out
these duties at the United States Mint (31 U.S.C. § 5131).
Accordingly, the United States Mint is the only entity in the United
States with the lawful authority to mint and issue legal tender United
States coins. Under 18 U.S.C. § 486,
it is a Federal crime to utter or pass, or attempt to utter or pass,
any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money except as
authorized by law.

Additionally, reading through their website you come across this “deal”:

Want to earn money, do good and have more fun? Then become a Liberty Associate for $250. You will immediately receive $100 Liberty Dollars and all your future currency exchanges will be at the special discounted Associate Rate that is posted at the top of the Liberty Dollar home page. Plus you can earn a $100 Referral for every Associate you sponsor. Sponsor only two people and you are now up $50 and you are on your way to making a significant difference to our country and its money. All three bonuses are also included with the Best Offer. Click here to become a Liberty Associate.

So, for 250 bucks you get 50 dollars worth of gold that I say is really worth 100 bucks.  Ummmm….can you say pyramid scheme?

I’m actually going to be sad when Ron Paul gets his ass handed to him in the primaries, the nuttiness of his supporters have made for some great blogging.

UPDATE

Wordsmith made his own money also:

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only a nut would think its OK for the privately owned FED to print money out of thin air!

Fiat FED money is counterfeit

only a nut would think its ok for the privately owned FED
to print money out of thin air!

Pyramid scheme? It’s true value and stamp value has a better ratio than the Fed Note which is back by only by the might of the Federal government telling you that it’s worth its face value. In terms of intrinsic value, 50% back vs 0% backed? In that respect, the Fed Note is more of a racket than the liberty dollar will ever be. Of course, I am somewhat inclined whether I like it or not to believe that the Fed Note is in fact worth what the government says it’s worth.

They’re selling liberty dollars for the equivalent stamp value in Fed Note dollars. That is the meaning of ‘exchange.’ “Real money” as you can see is in quotes and there is no claim that it’s legal tender and that everyone has to accept it. The liberty dollar is a private medium of bartering. It has value for those who believe it has value.

I, for one, will never accept Liberty Dollars for payment, but the FBI has no cause to seize all that property. It’s amazing to me that self-professed conservatives have come to believe that government can do no wrong.

Ahhh the Paul rabble attacks before I could get my piece in.

The Federal Reserve is of somewhat skeptical value to the economy, and inflation is certainly very harmful. But Paulbots sound at least somewhat coherent! Please!

Anyways, Ron Paul has a good fiscal policy and good command of economics. I think that his foreign policy framing is horrible.

From their website:

Liberty Dollar recently issued a “Presidential” Ron Paul Dollar in support of the Republican peace candidate. Now it asks peace-seeking Americans to start using the Peace Dollar and stop using the US War Dollar, as it finances the Iraq War.

Which is asking Americans to substitute US currency for their currency.

“18 USC Section 486

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title (!1) or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”

And:

“Article 1 – The Legislative Branch
Section 8 – Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;..”

It’s illegal and they got themselves raided. Thankfully.

You guys always make the day interesting tho.

You’re character is weak and you are not a mature adult who gives back to society. You are the emotional equivalent of a child. Please refrain from writing until you mature enough to write something that gives back to society.

Whether the Constitution explicitly forbids individuals from manufacturing their own currencies is rather debatable. The States are enjoined from issuing their own money (in various forms), making it exclusively the province of the federal government at the government level – but it does seem that further laws had to be passed before private currencies were outlawed.
The operators of Liberty Dollar claimed to have some sort of opinion from the US Mint that said what they were doing was legal. I am skeptical, and the whole operation seems pretty cheesy to me. Personally I think they crossed the line when they stamped ‘dollar’ on their silver coins (and decided to call them dollars); if they wanted to issue round silver tokens stamped with ‘1 oz .99 pure silver’ or some such then they’d be legal. But then they wouldn’t have had a gimmick.

The connection between the Libertarian fringe and Gold-backed currency is kind of silly, in an irony-tinged fashion.

They are supposed to be on the free market side of things. And if there is one thing a free market is very, very efficient at, it is establishing the value of something.

All the “fiat” “worthless” “counterfeit” paper money they whine about has one thing going for it: since it is floating, the value is EXACTLY what the free market determines it should be. If they REALLY thought the money was worthless they’d give it away!

Their economic messiah, Milton Friedman, understood this and backed a floating fiat currency over a gold standard for exactly this reason! Better to have a currency backed by the consensus of the free market than a currency with a value fixed by law. But for reasons that utterly confound me, this is one area where they ignore what Friedman was telling them.

The US dollar isn’t backed by the US government, you nitwits, it is backed by the entire global dollar market- every Human Being who ever pays or is paid in dollars. They all contribute to the market value of the currency, whether they are 3rd world cabbies driving you around all day for a twenty, or brokers moving hundreds of millions in an afternoon. Dollar goes up, dollar goes down, depending on a billion seperate decisions around the world. And if you think you are smarter than a market THAT big, you have delusions of grandeur.

Ben

Oh, and get this:

It is “real money” minted in pure silver and copper that exchanges dollar-for-dollar with the US war dollar. It is dedicated to establishing peace and bringing our boys home. The 2008 Peace Dollar has a face value of ten “Liberty Dollars” and contains one-half ounce of pure .999 fine silver. The $1 Copper Peace Dollar contains one ounce of pure copper.

One-half ounce of silver was worth $6.91! today.

Which equates to a 45% markup over the price of silver. And an ounce of copper is worth 24 cents which is a 417% markup!

But you Paulbots consider yourselves better informed consumers….

Like I said, pure entertainment.

Curt,

If you’re not going to take the time to understand an issue, don’t post on it.

Liberty dollars were never intended to be legal tender. They are perfectly legal.

We’ll wait for the government’s explanation as to why they stole two tons of gold, silver, palladium, and copper coins. Should be interesting.

And Curt, one last thing — don’t be so naive about your civil liberties. They’re being eroded very, very quickly.

The markup has to do with what people are paying for in the market. That’s the collectable portion of the currency. Due to it’s availability and it’s rarity. For example you can get a baseball card that is printed in limited quantities and if it has a signature that makes it more rare. That increases the value of the card which would not be worth anything if people did not think it was a good investment. But there was a market for the Liberty dollar. It was traded by several people and now that the place has been raided prices are doubling on ebay. So you better get one while you can!!

Yeah, Curt, if you don’t start supporting our counterfeit operations and pyramid schemes, your civil rights will be eroded – maybe not as fast as counterfeiting pauliens’ rights erode (insert jail door clanging shut sound here)…but pretty fast.

This is why I hate the Libertarians. They take perfectly sound economic ideas (market money as opposed to fiat money) and turn in into nutty ideas (Peace Dollars).

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title (!1) or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”

I have a problem with this law though and it does appear to make the Liberty Dollars “illegal”. If I want to make silver, gold, copper, tin, lead, or steel disks to exchange freely with others for whatever they will freely exchange with me, it should be no concern of anyone else.

Oh, those coins are just priceless, Curt!

Here you go, Curt….minted my own

I can’t believe anyone thinks you can ‘make your own’ money and pass it as legal tender. Now make it look like a rock or a democrats brain (thousands would fit in your pocket) and if another democrat is dumb enough to take it, then it’s a legal barter system. They lock up hundreds of people every day for making their own money on computer printers and passing it.

backed a floating fiat currency over a gold standard for exactly this reason

No. Friedman’s support of fiat money over the gold standard stemmed from monetary theory, not from libertarian free-choice ideology per se, though he was also an advocate of the latter. He acknowledged that both fiat and hard money had drawbacks and suggested that letting a central bank expand the money supply at a fixed rate might be a good compromise (this way you avoid political temptations that lead to rampant inflation).

since it is floating, the value is EXACTLY what the free market determines it should be. If they REALLY thought the money was worthless they’d give it away!

Given that the USG has a monopoly on the creation of legal tender, you can’t really say that federal reserve notes are operating in a free market (of currencies); competing currencies are not allowed. Further, the claim is not that US dollars are worthless, but rather:
– that expansion of the money supply by the federal reserve results in the transfer of wealth from all holders of current dollars to the recipients of the new money (banks, more or less)
– that inflation, therefore, constitutes a largely hidden and somewhat regressive tax
– that recent monetary policy has been particularly bad, contributing to the devaluation of the dollar internationally, as well as a bubble in housing prices
– that official inflation statistics are calculated in a dubious manner, so that the true rate of inflation is understated

Other people will argue that the existence of the Fed is itself illegal, the result of a conspiracy, and so on. This doesn’t interest me that much. If the effects of the Fed are positive, then even if its creation was done improperly I think I can live with it for now; if on the other hand the Fed is by nature destructive, it should be abolished even if its existence is perfectly legal.

Scrapiron,

Before the Paulbots jump in and embarrass themselves I should point out that the Liberty Dollars are not and did not claim to be “legal tender”. You should go look up the term before using it in a discussion.

Not. intended. to. be. legal. tender. therefore. not. counterfeit. and. not. illegal.

I did that real slow for you guys, Jonn and Curt.

Talk about being slow Zappa…from the advertisement:

It is “real money” minted in pure silver and copper that exchanges dollar-for-dollar with the US war dollar.

and:

Now it asks peace-seeking Americans to start using the Peace Dollar and stop using the US War Dollar, as it finances the Iraq War.

FYI

Legal tender or forced tender is payment that, by law, cannot be refused in settlement of a debt denominated in the same currency.

Legal tender is a status which may be conferred on certain examples of money, which may depend on circumstances including the amount of money. The term legal tender does not refer to the money itself.

After reading the disclaimer from the Liberty Dollar people I think they are correct that the Liberty Dollars are quite legal.

The statute sited above specifically says, “intended for use as current money”. The government has specifically denied that Gold or Silver are money and Liberty Dollars specifically deny being anything other than Gold and Silver in specific amounts that they will exchange for US Dollars.

Therefore, Liberty Dollars are not current money as defined by the government and are quite legal under the statute.

People can make “money” in the forms of stocks and bonds. You can’t directly buy a Ford vehical using Ford Motor Company bonds, but then again you can’t use American money to buy a Ford in Japan. The Ford bond is still worth something though.

They would have no trouble calling their iteams peace bonds and there isn’t much the government could have done if people traded them like real money (as long as they didn’t call it real money). The barter system is still legal in the U.S.

If Ron Paul’s followers can’t grasp that simple concept of economics, the guy probably couldn’t beat a donkey as town mayor.

Not. intended. to. be. legal. tender. therefore. not. counterfeit. and. not. illegal.

Yes, but they were trying to have their cake and eat it too when they stamped their coins ‘twenty dollars’ and put a dollar sign on them. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll be happy if they win their court case just because I’d hate to see all these people (customers) lose their money, but these guys were deliberately skating on thin ice to try and make a buck. There are plenty of sources for (legal) gold and silver coins old and new that don’t try to pass themselves off as replacements or substitutes for US currency. And yes, I’m sure they had disclaimers, but look at it this way: if the US currency and its symbols were trademarked, this would be a clear infringement.

Every day Americans, including US government employees, buy in foreign countries and markets goods with US Dollars, even though the dollar bills are not legal currency in those countries. And nobody gets arrested. As long as there is a willing person to exchange his property against whatever the buyer gives him, it should be legal.
So if the Federal Reserve Dollar is so good, what are they afraid of?

Yeah, it’s such an outrage that there was this private Bechtler mint in western North Carolina in the 1800’s. I don’t understand how it could have been so successful before it was reportedly seized by the Confederates. Some say it was their integrity. Likely story. Counterfeiters!

Curt,

“Real money” meaning it’s backed by precious metals, don’t confuse “real money” with “legal tender,” which would mean that it MUST be accepted by law for any debt, like dollar bills.

Remember, Floppy: Google first, *then* blog. Not the other way around.

laters

FZ

Nope, Curt you got it wrong. Liberty dollar is definitely legal. There were no taboo legal words used in the marketing of the Liberty Dollar. You’ll have to interpret the legislation in a more precise manner. When you do, there’s nothing wrong with the Liberty dollar. The key is US Mint would have sued them into oblivion if they passed it off as legal tender. Legal tender has to be accepted by anyone and everyone, and the Liberty Dollar does not claim to be legal tender.

Instead it looks like it was used as a medium of exchange by criminals. The situation is probably similar to what befell E-Gold last year. Online fraud groups were using E-Gold accounts to shuffle money after they ripped people off. The difference between E-Gold and the Liberty dollar is that E-Gold is an internet currency and its transactions go through the E-Gold server. The Liberty Dollar is instead specie and and paper receipts for specie. Whereas E-Gold proprietor might be able to reign in control over its extra-legal transaction, the Liberty Dollar company cannot. But that distinction might not matter to the federal government who seems to see both E-Gold and Liberty Dollar as complicit in fraud and money-laundering. That’s some hard luck. They probably didn’t do anything wrong but they did attracted some bad company.

By the way, you have some unhealthy animosity for some people are rather weakly connected to the Ron Paul campaign. They’re running a business.

Josh said:

You’re character is weak and you are not a mature adult who gives back to society. You are the emotional equivalent of a child. Please refrain from writing until you mature enough to write something that gives back to society.

I’ve heard more sense coming from the Virtual Autorantic Moonbat

Is “Josh” The Ron Paul version of the Autorantic Moonbat?

You put :

“Under the Constitution ( Article I, section 8, clause 5 ),”….and there is a problem…the link goes not to the actual Constitution, it goes to the US MINT ??

Wussup ? Got a real link to support your claims ? Are you just against Ron Paul, or what exactly are you trying to prove by trying to say what the folks in Evansville have done something against the law ?

The world awaits your answer.

One other thing, if a group of folks wanted to use chewing gum..or even trade ( hmmmm… like maybe baseball cards ? ) other things for money, they can if they want in a truly free society.

Wonder what the search warrant claims.

Not up enough on this area of the law to speculate.

The crux of this whole issue is that Liberty Dollar set up an alternate, private, monetary system (gold/silver coins, gold/silver certificates, and digital gold/silver certificates) that allowed private citizens to conduct monetary transactions which the government had no ability to monitor whatsoever.

A big part of the federal government monitoring all of us all of the time is their ability to monitor all of our major monetary (Federal Reserve Notes) transactions through the current banking system. If I understand correctly, any cash deposit, inter-account transfer, or withdrawal over $10k raises a red flag to the government.

Most likely, some individuals started using private monetary systems such as Liberty Dollar or eGold (which I think was shut down by the feds a year or so ago) specifically to avoid federal monitoring, either for libertarian reasons or for crime-related monetary transfers, and the federal government was not too crazy about that.

That being the case, they shut the whole darn system down rather than pursue only the individuals who might have been involved in illegal money laundering. And, I seriously doubt the FBI has any plans on providing compensation to those people who had invested heavily in liberty dollar certificates but have committed no crimes.

P.S. I always thought that it was foolishly flirting with danger for Liberty Dollar to put approximate FRN currency values on their products. If doing so confused a single ignorant American, then the FBI can probably charge LD with willful counterfeiting.

Ron Paul aside, are these nutjobs fighting for this mint’s right to decieve us? I initially interpreted that as “this dollar replaces your US dollar”, too.
… and that Liberty Associate thing reeks of Ponzi.

The Liberty Associate thing isn’t a Ponzi scheme, just typical MLM crap – i.e. it’s still sleazy, but it’s stable; the people who get hosed are those who end up not being able to sign up associates, but since they were never guaranteed returns the whole thing doesn’t have to collapse.

I do think that if they were only selling coins (even ones that were illegal) it would have made more sense to get a ruling against them first instead of starting of with a raid. But it sounds like they were also running a private bank, which makes the whole thing look even less kosher.

Awww, and I thought I would be the first to design a Ron Paul parody coin.

Once upon time people would tour insane asylums for entertainment. Well, plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose. Now we can post on our blogs and wait for the nutty Ron Paulians to show up. Very convenient: We don’t have to leave home and we don’t have to put up with the dirt and the smell.

Now why are libhomo and a pst314 so obsessed with ridiculing Ron Paul supporters? I was waiting for some real arguments that made sense, but all I see is a misplaced French quotation. Guys, can’t you offer any real arguments? Or are you afraid, Ron Paul will not let you feed at the public trough anymore?

So if I don’t put “United States” on something, I can use it as money if it will be taken. That’s how I read the law.

Barter is still legal, last I checked. If both sides in a transaction agree to it, it’s perfectly legal to use something other money to pay for goods or services.